Some Improvements for 4th Edition Fighters

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Hey Guys,

I have been working hard on a power pack for 4th edition fighters. It basically enhances a lot of the fighters strengths with different weapon groups while offering a lot of customizable powers that can be turned into at-will, encounter, or daily powers. Also included are some social powers that really let the fighter do some great work in the non-combat area of the game.

  You can take a look inside of it here  

Here is a video explaining what is inside the power pack as well if you want to listen.

  
This goes in Houserules and Homebrew, not here...
Hey KopakakaNuva, I am also discussing the basic tenants of a 4th edition fighter as well, not just purely homebrew. I would love to know what you think about it.
Are you going to spam every forum but the right one?
If you can kindly explain how this is spam, I am posing honest questions in area talking about both 4th edition material with my own thoughts and content. 


This is House Rules & Home Brew stuff, it belongs there. It's about your content.
I don't even... what. This is going to come off harsh, but I'm just trying to be brutally honest here. You seem to be completely re-inventing the power system, and much of what you assert is simply not correct. The customization you say is lacking is in fact found in feats, paragon paths and enchantments. There are quite a few of all of those things that actually do make each weapon feel different. There is a fighter build for using two weapons; it is called the Tempest. Or the Arena Fighter. There's a build for weapon + unarmed off-hand for grappling (brawler). 

A fighter with a spear is a whirlwind of AoE control where anyone that gets near them is pretty much just stuck prone and can't get away. A bralwer fighter can lock down one monster almost indefinitely by holding them and dragging them around. Tempest (two-weapon) fighters are extremely mobile and deal out decent damage and can mark 2 enemies per round with their at-will. Flail fighters will be knocking enemies prone at-will. I'm not even including paragon paths here.

Let's talk about your balance- it's horrible. These customizations are not even remotely comparable. +1[W] is nowhere near as good as -3 AC or -2 to one NAD. At all. One of them adds a maximum average of like 6, the other one adds 15% average damage to the entire party to focus fire and stacks with other boosters like warlords provide. As your party gains levels the bonus is magnified exponentially as your party's damage output grows, whereas 1[W] never gets better. Rend them to Pieces is absolutely absurd as an at-will. Taking away the use of a weapon hand is absurdly powerful. Making it save or perma-loss is devastatingly stupidly powerful against any kind of boss. I don't even understand how that can be balanced. Oh right, it is also an MBA. Vs Fort. Lordy, so you can take that, use it on a charge and target Fort or Reflex (for one feat)? AND it does normal damage? Baffling. The charge package sends this through the roof.

Pinpoint assault is also waaaaay powerful. Granting that big of a vulnerability will make your ranger grin with glee. That's an enormous buff, especially at low levels. Lordy, whirling followup with one customization to make a 5[W] encounter power at level 1. My god man, that's up to 10d6 brutal 1. That's better than the most damaging single attack weapon daily for a huge number of levels for any class.

I'm sorry man, but this stuff is just horribly balanced both in terms of some things being way too strong and some being way too pointlessly weak. Have you looked at any of the source books outside of PHB1? The fighter alone has over 400 powers at this point. Also, you may want to look at the DnD Essentials classes, the slayer and the knight. They are subclasses of fighters that have at-will stances that they switch between to add various things onto their attacks. It kind of feels like what you are doing here.
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
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You are awesome x3nth10n. 

Thank you for taking the time to look at all of this.

You are right on the fact that I have only seen a handful of options outside of the PH1 for fighters, so I am sure some duplicity does exist.

However, I am glad that you are seeing some mechanical advantages to some of the powers...although I do feel I disagree with you on the overpowered stuff...especially in the terms of where it would help the party out more.

The Rend Them to Pieces is not overpowered either....knocking out a limb is just one limb...against a boss, he might be able to shock it off if you so deem or keep on fighting in a unique way, fight with a sword in your mouth :D...silliness aside.... the goal was to change up how fights flow instead of dealing more status effects or more damage.

Each power was supposed to secure a particular way the fighter wanted to fight or felt that he was lacking in.

I did not want to reinvent the power system. But I did want to give the players options if they liked a particular effect, then they could have access to that effect all the time as an at-will.

The 1W increase in certain situations reflects the 2W that most powers deal as encounter powers in heroic levels, on top of the effect. I did not want players wanting the powers based on damage, but based on the unique advantage each power offered.

I hope this addresses most of your concerns and look forward to hearing back from you. 
1 - Homebrew (it's not a scary place, I promise - though it is quite sparcely populated, and you'd likely not get as many reads; I know I've been tempted to post straight to general in the past, just because of that, but I thought better of it).

2 - I get the impression that you're not really well-versed with this game.  Which is fine and all (though posting something to DTRPG at this point seems... a bit presumtuous).  x3nth10n pretty much covered the things I'd be concerned about mechanically, already.  Actually, he's pretty spot-on, and I don't think your rebuttals really address his points in any meaningful fashion.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I appreciate that you aren't taking it too personally. I really highly recommend taking a look at the other source books, or perhaps suscribing to DDI for one month to look at the character builder and the online compendium, both of which can show you all the options that have been published, online or in book form since the edition was released. There is a lot of stuff out there now. I sympathize with how you feel if you are looking at only the PHB1; it wasn't fantastically balanced and there were very few options, even fewer of which were viable. Some classes didn't even work well at all (strength paladins, warlocks weren't very good, wizards were too powerful as written with Orb of Imposition, etc.).  

As it stands though, the things that I am saying are overpowered aren't just because of their effects in a vacuum. There are several powers that grant vulnerability, but tacking them onto one of (if not definitively the) best defenders doesn't necessarily make it as balanced. Classes are the sum of their parts. A fighter should be very hard to hit (armor), have a lot of HP and surges, has one of the most effective punishments for marking in the game by punishing for shifting or attacking, and has one of the best OA's in the game because he gets to add his wis mod to hit in addition to everything else, and hitting stops the enemy. Fighters are already very tough and very very hard to get away from and have some of the most options and have some of the best damage output, especially for defenders. Adding some of these bonus effects on top of that is just too much IMHO.

I'll be straight with you though. I'm a CharOp guy. If your group is casual and especially if you are only planning on being in heroic tier, this won't terribly hurt your game, though I would STILL suggest using more than just the PHB1. I'm not saying I think it's balanced, but I will admit that it probably won't kill a low-op low-tier game. If that's fine with you, more power to you I guess.
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
While powerful stuff doesn't necessarily kill a game where people don't optimize thoroughly, accidentally choosing one of those stupidly overpowered options can really alter the game experience for everyone.

I am with mister X on this one, this supplement is not in line with the other supplements in the least.
This is quite interesting, thank everyone for replying.

Like I said before, I have really only looked at Martial powers and the PH1 along with a few other supplements, I have subscribed to DDI for a few months already...but I mostly run instead of making characters.

The additions I have made are based upon what I have seen about six different groups do with fighters. I felt that at times certain flavors and or maneuvers were missing or not really explored with fighters.

In any case, I still am not in agreeance with the OP side of the arguments, but I can appreciate where folks are coming from in that they feel like certain effects would be very volatile in a heroic setting.

That said, I thank everyone for taking the time to reply and am open for further discussion on the specifics of why I don't find these items overpowered or underpowered..and also the reasons why others feel the opposite. 
Given that the Fighter is the most well-supported class in 4e, you're definitely missing out on a LOT of content.

I'd suggest a one month DDI subscription, so you can mess around with them in the CB. 
In order to break down the encyclopedia that is Fighter options down to something manageable, I highly recommend reading LDB's Fighter Handbook.  If you still think you need to add things after going through that...I'm not sure what to say.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Oh yeah, the handbook(s) can't really be recommended enough.  Even if you're not looking for optimization purposes, it's just nice to see everything listed out in a more people-friendly manner.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I would recommend special attention to Tactics, Sample Builds, and Tricks and Tips.

Since you mentioned the difference weapons make, specifically, the section on weapoin choice is also very important.  The combination of feat, paragon path, and magic item support is boiled down in that section to get general relationships among the different weapon groups.  You get to see what it means to be a hammer fighter versus a spear/polearm fighter versus a flail fighter.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Howdy, folks.

I've moved this thread to a more appropriate forum.

Please keep your criticism polite and constructive.

Thanks.

All around helpful simian

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