Necromancer Wizard....help me make this possible and not suck..

40 posts / 0 new
Last post
As the title says. I want to make a wizard who is themeaticaly a necromancer(MUST HAVE SOME SHADOW POWERS.) and requires NO REFLUFFING to make, yet everybody says the Necromancer specality is bad. Thus, I have come to you all for some help.  I want a "Necromancer" build that can be both effective and powerful(which the necro specality is not) while actually having a fair bit of shadow powers and NOT haveing to refluff his powers as shadow...I actually want some shadow keyword powers in the build. Not every power has to be shadow and the necromancy keyword is not even nessicary, I just want a good chunk of his powers to be shadow keyword. It dose not matter if they are nethermancy or even multiclassed from cleric or some class. I just NEED there to be some shadow powers in his arsnel. I just want an evil user of black magic who is a controller, makes heavy use of minions/summons and is int-based, and I think that a mage or arcanist would work provided I got help with the build from all of you here...So, do you think you could help me make a "necromancer" who dose not suck(WITHOUT REFLUFFING)?
You do not need the shadow keyword to have "dark magic".



This.  Use your imagination for Ceiling Cat's sake.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
You have lots of power choices. Any wizard power with the Poison, Shadow, or Necrotic keyword would work perfectly, and a quick search of the compendium indicates that there are 85 such powers for Wizards. That should give you plenty of options for powers at all levels. I would start by grabbing a HOS summon and then take the feat "Legioncaller of Moil" to give said summon +1 to hit and +1 to all defenses.
It's not a matter of Right vs. Left, it's a matter of right vs. wrong My Charop Works Who Am I Really? The Theme Handbook I'm an
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Thats called refluffing. To me, it NEEDS to have the shadow keyword...or it's not dark. I know thats silly, but that is what I need. To me, no shadow keyword..it's not black magic.  I am sorry if I am demanding but I've for a long time desired a good black magic user and for once I'd actually like some help realizing my goal instead of saying "just refluff X class" I hate refluffing and hate it with a passion because it dose not allow me to make it evil. To be dark, it needs the shadow describtor, at least to me. In 3.5e calling your fireball evil did not give it the [evil] describtor, and the same applies here. You can call a power dark and say it looks evil, but mechanically it's not black magic and NOBODY in-game will treat it as such. Simply put, I want a shadow-powersoruce high-int character, and I have been frustrated by the overall lack of willingness of people to help me make that a reality. So, I apologize for my frustration, but I can't take this anymore. I just need a way to play a high-int, shadow-based character that is not a striker and not horriudly underpowered. So, I apologize for my frustration and I hope one of you can be kind enough to actually give me a hand instead of saying "just refluff" when I have already numerous times said that refluffing is not an option(UNLESS I was allowed to slap the shadow keyword on the refluffed powers, which WON'T ever happen.)

So, again, I apologize for my frustration and hope that somebody can be kind enough to give me some real advice.
Only a very few builds are actually "bad".

swarm druid.
Ensnareing swordmages (though they can still work)

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yeah, and the Necromancer is one of them. I heard Nethermancy is ok, but the summon sucks, and minions are of key importance to me. If there is a way to make a Nethermancer with a mirade of evil summons I may do that, but I am not aware of any truely "evil" summons beyoind the imp and the sccubus, which are both low-level. Elementals and such are NOT evil and thus I won't take them, but if there are other demonic, devilish or "always evil" race summons then I'd take those. Anyway...if anybody has any ideas on  an actual build that could realize my concept of an evil, minion-using praticioner of black magics with a good int score, I'd love to see them.(I can't look up powers myself because I lack the funds for DDI.)

Also, I am not appose to going arcanist and taking a lot of Shadow powers and summons...so that is still an option as well.....and if I MCed cleric I could still get my hands on servitude in death and shackles of the grave, and since I can go wis-secondary as an arcanist and Divine Oracle is an awesome PP MCing cleric is not a bad idea to start with, even for a non-necromantic wizard....

Again, if somebody has ideas for specific powers and such, please let me know.
I'm not going to argue anymore. I said I don't want refluffing and thats final. It's a big hang up for me, and this thread is not suposted to be an argument. Can we just agree to disagree and call it a day? I made this thread looking for actual advice to help my build, that was not refluffing, yet you said just refluff despite and thats not what the point of this thread was. If you disagree with my views and thoughs, thats fine. We all have out views and opinions and while you may not agree with mine and I may not agree with yours, that is no excuse to derail this thread into an argument about refluffing. So, I ask if you can please find it in yourself to not post in this thread anymore unless you can contribute actual help for what I'm looking to do and not just flame-bating/looking for an argument from me. I said I won't refluff and thats final, so while you may disagree with it, will you at least please find it in yourself to except it and move on so a sane, non-confrontational conversation can continue here? Again, I apologize for my part in this argument and did not mean to be confrontational. I am not denying my part in this argument, but I decided I won't go at it anymore. So if you can stop, that will be great, but if you keep on it I'll just choose to ignore you and wait for others to chime in. So I apologize for the confrontation and would like it if you could back down as well and just except my views, even if they are wrong in your eyes.  However, feel free to do what you feel is nessicary, just know that it won't change my stance one bit and that after this post I won't respond to you if you keep at it.
The Dretch (L1 daily, Summon Dretch, Dragon 385) is a minor demon (always Chaotic Evil), and most of the not obviously on fire summons seem to be devils or demons (which while they are technically elementals, are servants of the Chained God within the void, and so definitely deserving of their evil status), any of the Evard's (whatever) spells are worth a look, since in the Greyhawk setting he's pretty much the epitome of dark spellcasters.

With that lot in mind, flick through the guide ( community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... ) which will at least give you a good idea of what to get (though if you're going for shadow powers, bear in mind that necrotic powers automatically get a lower rating since it's the most resisted and least vulnerable against of all damage types) 
"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"
The Shadow keyword has no support to speak of, outside of maybe a few assassin things. It literally means nothing to a wizard. There are no tricks we can really give you for this.

Therefore, the optimal answer is to refluff, because shadow powers are a bit lacking.

If you don't want to refluff, just build a frickin necromancer like everyone else does... click through the powers and pick the ones you like best.  Accept that you like to play unoptimal builds and just play them.  It's getting a bit tiring with you posting how you want to make such and such build with arbitrary restrictions and NO REFLUFFING.

Refluffing is a key way to represent builds with restricted concepts. If you won't do it, accept the consequences and play a less-than-the-best character. It won't be the end of the world.
Necromacy features are rated medim and high.
Nethermancy are rated medium and highest.

You won't be underpowered.
Perhaps not the most powerful thing in the world, but you will still have a perfectly playable character.

Seriously, this is not 3.5. It would actually take effort to be "horrendously underpowered".

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's one thing to be adamant about not wanting things refluffed.  It's something else entirely to be demanding about wanting help.  You are asking for help and then going on to restrict the kind of help you're willing to accept.

As someone else has already indirectly suggested, open the compendium and search for powers with the shadow keyword.  Pick what you like from them within the class you want to play primarily, then MC and grab a few more if it makes you happy.
Then, what, beyond refluffing, would you sugjest I do to represent my dark magic user in 4e? I have heard nethermancy was pretty good, and the specality has an awesome ability in it. Sure, some of the nethermancy powers may be meh, but a lot of them are decent so would it be best to just play a strait nethermancy specality mage and pick up some demonic and evil summons like the dretch, sccubus, and Imp to satisfy my need for minions?(since the nethermancy shadow servant summon sucks.) Or would it be better to hybrid wizard/warlock and pick more controler-y warlock powers? Warlock powers are not "shadow" based, but are still themematicaly evil if you choose infernal, sorc-king, dark or aguably star pact...and if I hybrid with wizard or rather took a warlock multiclass feat as a wizard I could use the wizard side for AOE controls and the warlock for single target controls and be a controller on par with a standard wizard(Assuming I took the multiclassing option instead of the hybrid one.)

So, I will place before you the options you have now and I' like to know which would be best...

-Nethermancy specality mage, taking some demonic/evil summon powers for minion-use and other general purpose spells but mostly stiking to nethermancy.

- Arcanist, wis-secondary, choosing mostly nethermancy, summons and general "dark/evil" themed powers(Such as Grasping Shadows, poison-based powers ect..). Muticlass with cleric for both divine oracle PP and acssess to servitude in death/shackes of the grave.(Via power swap feats.)

- Wizard/Warlock hybrid, focusing on warlock single target control powers and wizard AOEs and summons...wizard powers being a mix of nethermancy and plain useful spells since the warlock element would make me dark without having to load up on copious ammounts of necro/nether powers.

Those are my three current options, if you have any others beyond refluffing, I'd like to here them. If you don't, which one of those do you think would be the most optimal? If you do have another option that is not refluffing, is it the most optimal or are one of these better?

Also, one more question.  If none of those builds are really optimal, are the Vamprisim and Arcane Vampire feats worth it? As if I can't be "dark" because of my powers, being a Vampire would be another way to make my character "always evil" mechanically and fluff wise since a vampire that spams radiant is still, despite her powers, a vampire and despite her goodness(If the character is good) is still a creature accoiated with evil and the night.

I am just wondering as becomming a vampire makes several strong, non-evil fluffed options immedatly evil, such as enchantment. An encanter or enchantress won't be viewed as evil in-game normally. Slap vamprism onto them and vola, instant reconizeable evil-ness. This gose for any class, however, even non-magical ones. I'd be willing to play, say, a warlord, if they had the vamprisim and martial vampire feats...so I just want to know if those feats are worth it or not?
Thats too bad, because that would have solved a lot of my issues. In any case, would any of the three options presented above(before the vampire thing) work?
Any of the three could work, although swapping Wizard dailies for Cleric dailies is not generally worth it, and Servitude in Death is REALLY not worth it.

In your shoes, I would be a nethermancer, and use the Wizard's Handbook picking from the highest rated powers with the shadow keyword (or whatever other criteria makes them dark enough) at each level.  Enough of those powers are rated highly enough that you'll do fine, although you'll do better if you let yourself pick from illusion dailies as well as shadow ones.

t~

edit: oh, and at least one non-dark, actual control bearing at-will is a good idea too (the "dark" ones all suck for control--or just suck period)
From a fluff point of view, I think the wizard/warlock is the most appealing because it allows you to go with a story for your character about someone who started on the "right" path and is being slowly seduced into "evil."  Roleplaying-wise, that kind of foundation will help you to keep things intersting through a long campaign.

Mechanically, I suspect the wizlock will probably be your strongest option anyway, giving you access to the full suite of powers from both classes.  I'd suggest looking at Nausicaa's Wizard handbook and Malkonnen's Warlock handbook to find some mechanically sound powers to fit your needs.
Yeah...a Wizlock would work very well fluff-wise and give me an excuse to be "dark" while still taking non-shadow powers...as a hybrid, half of my powers will come from an infernal pack which is more then enough to qualify me as a user of 'black magic" taking the good nethermancy powers and evil summons will simply be iceing on the cake. However, the question becomes, as a wizlock will I still be effective as a controller(assuming I stick to controling warlock powers) or will being a hybrid gimp me? I know that hybrids are easy to mess up but Wizlock seems better then some other combinations since, despite being a striker the warlock has enough control(though most of it is single target) to allow this to act more like a controller/controller hybrid as appose to a controller/striker hybrid and some of the warlock single target control is amazing. Combind with wizard AOEs and summons it seems I could be an above-baseline controller, but I want your opinions first. So, would a wizlock be good as a controller or would the hybrid status ultimatly weaken it to the point of being not worth it?
I think you lose more than you gain by hybriding to Warlock, but the combination is viable and should function fine.

t~
Having not evaluated the Warlock power list, filtering for "evilness" and single-target control, I'm not *certain* you won't end up gimped.  My gut says you won't.
Hybirds will allow you more choice in powers. It helps ensure you get a shadow/necrotic power every level.

And again. You're not gunna be underpowered. (Unless you're in a high powered char-op game, but you probably arn't).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Evil and darkness isn't so much where the spell is sourced from so much as what you do with it.
I can use a power with the radiant keyword to kill a kennel full of puppies.

Hybrid warlock loses a lot, so make sure what you're getting from the other class is going to be worth the loss of Pact Boon, Shadow Walk, and Prime Shot.  Sure you will get your bonus damage with Curse, and you can Hybrid Talent for one of the 3 Class features you lose, but hopefully you get something else from the other class.  There are definitely decent control options using powers from a hybrid warlock. 

I'd also look at wizard powers using the Fear and Psychic keywords if you want something dark or evil themed.  Cracking open someone's skull and using some magic to turn their brain into tapaoica isn't usually something associated with the white hats (or robes). 
Necromancers don't typicall just use "shadow spells," they also use poison spells (the putrid miasma of rotting decay), cold spells (the chill of the grave) and fear/psychic spells (the mind-wracking horror of death).

If you pick spells like stinking cloud, freezing burst, or vision of ruin/face of death, you are still very much in the realm of "evil" necromancer.

Then pick up rituals" corpse gate, undead servitor, dealthy shroud, speak with the dead, etc.

Then take arcane familiar and choose the spectre.

You might also consider hybrid shaman with spirit's power as your hybrid talent. Now you have a an actual ghost with a good OA as your constant companion. The shaman gets some nice control spells too.
Might i ask why you want it to be a class with high INT, and most importanlty, would you be happy with a class with high INT but whose primairy stat is Wisdom ( secondary being INT). if im not mistaken, the Invoker, Wis primairy and can be Int secondary ( still allowing for high INT)

and if you just check the different possible Gods you will see that there are Gods wich are evil with domains as Poison, undeath, death, Tortur ( or was it torment) and Invokers have some summoningpowers. This would be evil without ever having to look at powers since you would be devoted to an evil God ( or domains)

if you take the domainfeats, some powers who are not evil , become rather evillike ( gaining necrotic, or poison as keyword and doing more damage)

if your INT is high enough you might still take one of the wizards at wills by multiclassing to the wizard ( i myself really liked the at will that consists of grappling hands slowing the target that was in HOS) and thus gaining a shadow power

or you might play a half elf ( became evil because he was rejected by the elven society because he was a bastard or whatever)
and take ye random at will that looks evil enough for you as dilletante power ( and later on add it to your atwillrepertaire by taking versatile master)  and thus gaining a shadow power

i realize this is a lot of questions so

- why high INT
- Must INT be the primairy stat or can it be secondary aswell
- what do you think of an invoker with evil domains  ( look mostly in Divine power for an idea about evil domains and the accompanying feats/ powers)
- do you have any recerestrictions we need to take into account

-Personally i prefer my evillish characters to be enabling leaders or hypnotizing mages, letting others do the dirty work for you, because afterall, you are the evil mastermind who did all the thinking, and you are not to make your hands dirty for a task as menial as hitting somoene else over the head with a big chunk of wood, you ve god your minions ( read "other players") to do that, you just point them what to hit. 

The sad truth is, Necromancy is something of a joke.  IMO the necromancy wizard school is the absolute nadir of 4e design, and does not in the slightest represent a sincere attempt by the designers to allow you to play the archetype supposedly represented.  4e necromancy deserved - and required - something more then could fit in the mage's school structure.  It needed something more like the shaman - a pet based caster class with powers that activated through the pet.  Sadly, it's too late now.

If you want something in the minionmancer vein, re-fluffing a shaman or shaman hybrid is the way to go, because the shaman is still by a wide margin the best implementation of a pet class in 4e.

If you want something more specifically 'dark, undead-y wizard', I'd reccomend an orbizard or a nethermancy/(illusion or enchantment) mage, aiming for the archlich epic destiny, looking to emulate something like the Lich in adventure time - note that his creepiest and most iconic ability wasn't raising the dead, it was getting into the hero's mind in a more enchantmenty/charmy/illusiony way.


As for re-fluffing in general, the thing is, somewhere along the way WotC kind of got lazy about bringing new archetypes and ideas to the game, particularly in terms of classes (though I will admit that the pixie certainly brought something new for 4e races, and I very much appreciate that).  In general, the designers would much rather just revisit concepts and archetypes that already exist within the game, and that's not going to change in what time is left in this edition - and when the next edition rolls around they'll have all those basic concepts to do all over again.  so basically, if you want to play a class archetype that doesn't already explicitly exist within the game, refluffing's kind of it for you.
People who want to play a zombie-horde-raising necromancer are never going to be happy in a balanced game.

But that's OK with me, because that archetype's not player-suitable anyway. I just wish they'd be upfront about it and say "No, you cannot have a character who obsoletes the entire party. We're making a Necromancer Artificer modeled on Dr. Frankenstein instead, play that."



Trivially easy to make it work actually. You should read up on Mob Balance mechanisms IMO.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
But that's OK with me, because that archetype's not player-suitable anyway. I just wish they'd be upfront about it and say "No, you cannot have a character who obsoletes the entire party. We're making a Necromancer Artificer modeled on Dr. Frankenstein instead, play that."



Hey, I'd be perfectly happy with that, myself, it's basically what I always asked for, and what I had expected prior to HoS's release.  But guess what, they didn't do that, either, because again we'd be talking about a pet class with powers channeled through the pet in some way, a la the shaman, not something that would easily fit under the mage's school mechanics.

There's a place for zombie-horde PC necromancers, and that place is a supplemental system for mass combat divorced from the core character mechanics, a system for representing PCs leading armies of whatever type, magical or mundane, likely based on some modified version of skill challenges.

The fact that the army of undead is completely unsuited for dungeon crawling shouldn't have negated the PC necromancer archetype.  Just like the fact that an army of living soldiers being unsuited for dungeon crawling didn't prevent us from getting the awesome 'general/leader of men' archetype that we got with the Warlord.  But that was back at the start of 4e when the designers at the time just seemed to care more, and were more willing to try new things.

We even have the structure for a PC necromancer already, it's sitting right over there in PHBII.  Just take that, make it a controller, give it some cold/poison/fear/necrotic powers, maybe some sort of debuff aura on the pet, some more summons as daily powers, and boom, you're good to go.  That was too hard, I guess.  Not grognardian enough for the post-essentials design team.  Gotta make it a wizard school, and if the archetype doesn't fit under that format in 4e, then just dismember it until it does.

Grumble grumble.
Necromancers don't typicall just use "shadow spells," they also use poison spells (the putrid miasma of rotting decay), cold spells (the chill of the grave) and fear/psychic spells (the mind-wracking horror of death).

If you pick spells like stinking cloud, freezing burst, or vision of ruin/face of death, you are still very much in the realm of "evil" necromancer.


This.  A power doesn't need to have the Shadow keyword to have evil (default) fluff.  I mean, think about poison; that's the Executioner's schtick and he's a shadow class.  Regardless of the route you go, there's plenty of powers to choose from on the Wizard list.

You might also consider hybrid shaman with spirit's power as your hybrid talent. Now you have a an actual ghost with a good OA as your constant companion. The shaman gets some nice control spells too.


Another option is to take the Spirit Talker M/C feat and choose the World Speaker's OA.  Even if the OA is 1/enc, the Spirit Companion offers excellent control for the price, and it's much less resource-intensive than going with a hybrid.  Plus you have a ghost minion that you can summon at-will. 

I actually still wonder why the Necromancer didn't get something like the SC or the Sentinel's Animal Companion as a class feature.  It could have lacked the normal Mage class features but got the minion instead.  Heck, even if it was an encounter power that let you summon an actual minion (1 HP) with an OA it would still be thematic, and much less likely to be OP.

Anyways, I digress.  Personally, if I were building a Necromancer I'd probably not hybrid.  I'd either go Staff of Defense Arcanist or Nethermancy Mage (with Necromancy or Enchantment as my secondary school).  In either case I'd M/C Shaman for Spirit Talker.  Personally I like Arcanist better because you can pick up all of the Shadow powers but you aren't stuck with their crappy 5th level summon. 

Finally, as a piece of friendly advice I would suggest that when you're asking people to tweak a build on the boards that you actually provide a build.  Make it as shadowy and evil as you possibly can, specify elements that you like about your build and stuff that is less than ideal for your concept, and then people can make suggestions.  Especially since you don't have DnDi, and thus might not have access to all of the relevant material.  These types of specific suggestions are going to be much more valuable, since so much of your build is going to rely on what powers you choose. 
Best "Necromancer" build I ever played was a hybrid Sentianel Druid|Cleric
All powers were reflavoured, which i know the OP doesn't want, but the Wolf was reflavoured to be a pet ghoul, that I could 'summon' when I wanted, all Druid summons were reflavoured to be undead.
Was enjoyable and flavourful, as well as being a reasonable build... not overshadowing my fellow players, but bringing enough to the table to be effective....

My actions and what I did with my powers made me "Evil" and having "undead" summons made the NPC react in way that was consistant with the image that I made my character portray.

pity the OP doesn't want to reflavour... ah well
You keep saying the Nethermancy summons suck, and while it was true that the level 5 one had half the hitpoints of the Necromancy one, they updated it in October to give it insubstantial, so it's a pretty decent summon now. And the higher level one has always been pretty great.
You keep saying the Nethermancy summons suck, and while it was true that the level 5 one had half the hitpoints of the Necromancy one, they updated it in October to give it insubstantial, so it's a pretty decent summon now. And the higher level one has always been pretty great.


Whoa, I missed out on that one.  I need to pay more attention to these errata when they're released.
Necromancers make decent blasters, since there are some good wizard necrotic spells. Once i made a blaster build, combined with Blightspeaker and tiefling to get a decent kicker on saves. It must be somewhere in the wizard handbook thread, since, as usual, i forgot to post it in the first page.

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

Just a warning: because the theme itself is sub-optimal - necromancer without reflavoring that doesn't "suck" - the build below is not a top-notch build, but at the very least at least *tries* to do something that will work at a higher-than-average capability.

With that aside, here are the details as to why I chose what I chose for this build:
Shade -> most of the time the healing surge penalty is trivial, free skill training is free skill training, and the idea that you are a human corrupted by the Shadowfell fits quite well with an "evil" character.
Necromancy Apprentice -> it syncs well enough with the Shade race in terms of making up for the loss in healing surge [2 tempHP/round can easily surpass the healing surge value of 5, assuming you even get attacked at all].
Ability spread -> Shades get pretty good INT anyway, and CHA would later help with getting the save penalty feat later on.  The 12 CON is supposed to make up for the lesser healing surges, but if you want to go for the 19-20 feat at epic tier, 11 CON 11 WIS would be a decent enough investment 13 DEX would later be useful for dual implement spellcaster
Feats -> obviously it was either Accurate Orb or Orb Expertise (replace [Orb] with whatever implement you want to and can use)
At-Wills -> Was heavily considering Scare instead of Restless Dead -- Rotting Doom's anti-healing + undead-destroying combined with the Disrupt Undead cantrip would make for a pretty decent spell unless we're in a campaign that has no undead yet has a lot of necrotic-resistant/immune enemies -- but the kicker was that the Restless Dead at-will's default fluff is that the difficult terrain is created through the summoning of physical or spectral undead (wraiths, skeletal hands, etc.) reaching out to the target, and it's a Necrotic spell as opposed to Scare, which is a Nethermancy spell, so you get your tempHP there.  Both are Shadow powers, so if you want a close range back-up other than the Devil's Pawn encounter power, either pick Staff Expertise as your first feat instead of Accurate Orb, or get Scare instead
Encounters -> I still don't know why Wizards forgot to update Grasping Shadows to be a Shadow power, but the fluff and even the written mechanics has "Shadow" written all over it.  Dread Presence is a decent go-to if you ask me, as it ignores 5 points of necrotic resistance (which, when combined with Disrupt Undead, means you can work with this unimpeded even against those with resist 10 necrotic, and at epic tier [where 15 necrotic resistance would likely appear], you at worst deal 5 points less damage.
Dailies -> Pretty obvious when you think about it
Theme -> Couldn't think of a more "evil" theme, at least while Book of Vile Darkness hasn't been released
Cantrips -> Disrupt Undead is of primary importance with this build, because it is the best band-aid you'll have so far for your necrotic-centric build.

Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Shade, Mage
Level 1 Apprentice Mage: Necromancy Apprentice

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 13.


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 11.



AC: 15 Fort: 11 Reflex: 15 Will: 13
HP: 22 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 5


TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +8, Arcana +12, Insight +5, History +10, Religion +10


UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering, Endurance +1, Heal, Intimidate +1, Nature, Perception, Streetwise +1, Thievery +1, Athletics -1


FEATS
Level 1: Superior Implement Training (Accurate orb)


POWERS
Level 1 Mage At-Will Powers: Rotting Doom
Level 1 Mage At-Will Powers: Restless Dead
Level 1 Mage Daily Powers: Spirit Rend
Level 1 Mage Daily Powers: Summon Dretch
Level 1 Mage Encounter Powers: Dread Presence
Level 1 Mage Encounter Powers: Grasping Shadows
Mage Cantrips: Disrupt Undead
Mage Cantrips: Spook
Mage Cantrips: Prestidigitation


ITEMS
Accurate orb
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



Where to go from here:
This depends on what sort of "evil" you're going after.  Frankly, 4E has no mechanical representation for evil, and for those playing Eberron in particular, that's a good thing, because at least gone are the times when the Paladin suddenly loses his powers because the DM thought he was doing something that was against the code of ethics, while the Paladin himself (in character) was doing what he believed was totally within his deity's code of ethics.  With that in mind, the powers/spells printed in 4E materials are just like guns and other deadly weapons: usable both for evil and good, but by itself they are merely tools without mind nor intent.  Hence, "guns don't kill people, people do."

No matter what element you're using, an evil mage who destroys entire villages to have people quake in fear of his presence, is still an evil mage... even if his spells have unicorns prancing and bunnies hopping around, destroying and pillaging (with their cute stare and rampant chewing?). 
Show

You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
Necromancers make decent blasters, since there are some good wizard necrotic spells. Once i made a blaster build, combined with Blightspeaker and tiefling to get a decent kicker on saves. It must be somewhere in the wizard handbook thread, since, as usual, i forgot to post it in the first page.



I'd like to see this if you can dig it up and place it in your build section.
Darklord is the epic destiny for necromancer, every creature you kill rising as a undead minion dominated by you. Sadly it doesn't kick in till level 30.

3 more options. MC psion for thrallherder, your slave can be any humiod or beast, so it could be a ghoul armed with a gouge.

Or MC psion for alienist. Your wraith could have been mind flayer when it was alive. Your wraith's attacks will deal 5 extra psychic damage and have higher defences against creatures not immune to fear effects. The pp does have downsides. Lastly enchanter powers could be useful to enslave undead you fight. Actually from a philosphical perpective an enchanter is eviler then a necromancer, is the difference between a mind rapist and a grave digger.
Darklord is the epic destiny for necromancer, every creature you kill rising as a undead minion dominated by you. Sadly it doesn't kick in till level 30.

3 more options. MC psion for thrallherder, your slave can be any humiod or beast, so it could be a ghoul armed with a gouge.

Or MC psion for alienist. Your wraith could have been mind flayer when it was alive. Your wraith's attacks will deal 5 extra psychic damage and have higher defences against creatures not immune to fear effects. The pp does have downsides. Lastly enchanter powers could be useful to enslave undead you fight. Actually from a philosphical perpective an enchanter is eviler then a necromancer, is the difference between a mind rapist and a grave digger.
Thanks for making me aware of the errata on the nethermancy summon. Now that it has insubstantial it dose not suck and I really have no reason to not take a nethermancy specality mage, since my only complaint about nethermancy as a specality was the lack of a decent summon. Anyway, is there any good nethermancy specality mage builds around here I can look at for ideas?