11/23/2011 BoaB: "Modern Erayo"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Anyone want to make any predictions?
I like the concept, Erayo has the potential to do some pretty crazy things and it will only get easier to flip as they print more cards. Ancient grudge is indeed a huge roadblock for the tempered steel version of the deck, I'm curious to see your 4 color bloodbraid variant. Zoo has already been splashing blue for snapcaster and select counters, adding Erayo to that mix has the potential for some pretty sick turns.
Step 1) Take out your Tempered Steel modern deck.
Step 2) Add Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Step 3) ????????
Step 4) Profit. 
Imma say this once, and once only.


Needs MOAR PYROMANCY
The pyro version of this deck dodges ancient grudge (though not pridemage, granted), and has more cards that play well with gitaxian probe + noxious revival (mostly the pyro itself). The deck also goes infinite to win, theoretically as early as turn four, and has easier access to mana leak, rune snag, spell pierce/snare, remand, etc. Also, playing a deck composed of more instants allows you to flip erayo in response to removal (mana leak, bolt something, revival, maybe?), and just protect both of your win conditions until you can actually win. Locking your opponents out isn't an option, unfortunately, but who needs that? you just locked your opponents out of cheaper spells and forced them to hold on to anything that could threaten you, as the first spell isn't resolving, and the second-third might not either.
Step 1) Take out your Tempered Steel modern deck.
Step 2) Add Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Step 3) ????????
Step 4) Profit. 



The irony of it all is that to keep it budget, he had to give up the building part. I'm pretty sure the Bant version was pretty cool. Personally, though, I kept thinking "Well, you just add Erayo+Canonist to an affinity deck, and you win. Nothing special there."

I liked some of the extra notes, though (adding money, the Bant-version, the post-sideboarding discussion and so on). I just wish we'd see those again next week.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
Imma say this once, and once only.


Needs MOAR PYROMANCY
The pyro version of this deck dodges ancient grudge (though not pridemage, granted), and has more cards that play well with gitaxian probe + noxious revival (mostly the pyro itself). The deck also goes infinite to win, theoretically as early as turn four, and has easier access to mana leak, rune snag, spell pierce/snare, remand, etc. Also, playing a deck composed of more instants allows you to flip erayo in response to removal (mana leak, bolt something, revival, maybe?), and just protect both of your win conditions until you can actually win. Locking your opponents out isn't an option, unfortunately, but who needs that? you just locked your opponents out of cheaper spells and forced them to hold on to anything that could threaten you, as the first spell isn't resolving, and the second-third might not either.



I don't think flipping Erayo in response works.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
Interesting how similar the art is for Erayo (unflipped) and Ethersworn Canonist. I wonder if that's deliberate? They are clearly related cards after all.


I feel like JVL made a small effort to heed feedback on this article, though it's so small I could actually just be imagining it. In some ways I hope he hasn't made an effort on that front because if he has it's really insubstantial. Almost like paying lip-service to the deck building aspects people are asking for.

I would like to see some more game logs, possibly from different versions of the build on slightly different budgets.

I also think a (tighter) budget version of this deck should be presented. Maybe I'm wrong but it looks like this still costs over 100 dollars to me, so how about acknowledging that and then presenting a version of the deck with that cost halved?
Another $100+ "budget" deck...looks like I will have to do your job for you JVL.

Budget Modern Erayo

Lands
8 x Island
9 x Plains

Creatures
3 x Court Homunculus ~ 10¢
4 x Erayo, Soratami Ascendant</a> ~ $20
1 x Ethersworn Canonist ~ $3
4 x Memnite ~$3
4 x Ornithopter ~$1
4 x Grand Architect ~$3

Other Spells
4 x Chimeric Mass ~ $1
4 x Gitaxian Probe ~ 20¢
4 x Mishra's Bauble ~ $2
4 x Unsummon ~ 4¢
3 x Springleaf Drum ~ 45¢
4 x Glorious Anthem ~ $6

Total Cost ~ $40

While this deck may not be as powerful as it could be with the right card it is still pretty powerful. The combo will come out just as often as JVL's deck while losing some pushing power but being on a much smaller budget (less than half). However with Grand Architect + Chimeric Mass it is possible to still bring the hurt.

Adding Money to the deck

Glorious Anthem -> Tempered Steel
Chimeric Mass -> Master of Etherium
Grand Architect -> Steel Overseer
Plains/Islands -> Seachrome Coast/Adarkar Wastes/Glacial Fortress



Would it be so difficult to do something of this nature? $40 I have a feeling people would agree is a bit more budget and the combo is still there. You can still suggest the actual deck you would like people to try by using the adding money to the deck section, and I'm sure no one would mind if you added additional game logs showing how the deck worked after adding the money to the deck. I mean you would obviously add a little more fleshing out to the article and more talking about the cards but this is only an example.
4  Adarkar Wastes (4x $1 = $4)
4  Island ($0)
5  Plains ($0)
4  Seachrome Coast (4x $11 = $44)

3  Court Homunculus (4x $0.03 = $0)
4  Erayo, Soratami Ascendant (4x $5 = $20)
1  Ethersworn Canonist ($3)
4  Master of Etherium (4x $3 = $12)
4  Memnite (4x $1 = $4)
4  Ornithopter (4x $0.25 = $1)
4  Steel Overseer (4x $3 = $12)

4  Gitaxian Probe (4x $0.10 = $0)
4  Mishra's Bauble (4x $0.50 = $2)
4  Path to Exile (4x $3 = $12)
3  Springleaf Drum (3x $0.25 = $0)
4  Tempered Steel (4x $3.50 = $14)

Total cost for this one, budget, deck: $128

An alternate budget plan that's been in the news recently:

12 months World of Warcraft subscription (12x $13 = $156)
Diablo III ($0)
Mists of Pandaria beta ($0)

Total cost: $156

Think this one budget deck will get you at least 82% of the hours of entertainment as the alternate plan? ;)
I think not using Glint Hawk in this deck is kind of an oversight. It allows you to pick up your 0-cost creatures to replay them to trigger Erayo and can have applications in the early turns to put evasive pressure on the opponent if there are no Erayos in sight.  I think it would be an easy swap for the Court Homunculus.  Even though it doesn't get the benefit of the artifact pumpers, I feel it is a worthy inclusion.
Since when is a deck built around an $8 card "budget" ?!
This deck is great ( yeah it is a little expensive but if you can't afford it simply don't build it . don't need to be complaining all the time ) 
The only problem i see is the single Ethersworn Canonist ( it should be a 4 of )
This deck non-budget would be able to do serious stuff , just turn it into Bant with some Mox Opal's and some Grand Architect's. 

As B3457 said, Glint Hawk would be a nice addition too. 

See ya  
Normally (such as last week), I agree with budget complaints. But I am inclined to give the budget far more leeway when building for modern over standard, as the decks need to be more potent and older cards tend to be a bit more pricey regardless of actual use.

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71235715 wrote:
Since when is a deck built around an $8 card "budget" ?!


In a format where most peoples' MANA BASES cost upward of $100, I find that to be extremely well budgeted.
Also, playing a deck composed of more instants allows you to flip erayo in response to removal

I don't think flipping Erayo in response works.

If your opponent plays something like Lightning Bolt or Doom Blade targeting your Erayo, and you flip Erayo in response, the removal is countered because Erayo is no longer a creature. 
This deck is great ( yeah it is a little expensive but if you can't afford it simply don't build it . don't need to be complaining all the time ) 
The only problem i see is the single Ethersworn Canonist ( it should be a 4 of )
This deck non-budget would be able to do serious stuff , just turn it into Bant with some Mox Opal's and some Grand Architect's. 

As B3457 said, Glint Hawk would be a nice addition too. 


I think the springleaf drums need to be Ignored and ethersworn canonist put in instead as he didn't play any drums in testing.

Agree on glint hawk shenanigans.

Surprised no-one else has said it but why isn't he playing dispatch over path to exile?
Dispatch can fail if one of your artifacts is removed before the spell resolves, and pretty much does less than nothing if you have to play it turn one.  Path to Exile has no such weaknesses.

Like some other posters, I too am intrigued by the "Bant List" that was mentioned in the article.  Any chance of seeing it?  Cascaing into Erayo seems like a lot of fun.
Since when is a deck built around an $8 card "budget" ?!


In a format where most peoples' MANA BASES cost upward of $100, I find that to be extremely well budgeted.




Not sure if you noticed but the mana base in this deck is 50 dollars anyway.

Obviously Modern is a more expensive format. So maybe a budget column shouldn't be trying to make decks for Modern. Or maybe it should only make decks for Modern when there's a way of doing it on a more reasonable budget. Or maybe it should do more to explain how one might upgrade a deck to compete in modern, or how more expensive staples of modern can reasonably be replaced with budget cards.

I don't mind a 'comparatively budget' deck for a more expensive format every now and then. Just not all the time. Not every article. There is a need for decks that are not just comparatively budget but actually built in front of us on a budget in every sense of the word.

Would people be saying the same thing about comparatively budget if he made a comparatively expensive pauper deck? : P
Complainers gonna complain, I guess.

You've been presented with a deck that costs roughly what a single card in Modern Zoo costs, and yet still has the capacity to compete.  He's building around a powerful-but-unexplored rare using mostly commons and uncommons, or rares that are easy to acquire.

Could he give you a $20 Modern deck?  Sure!  Would it ever win?  Probably not!  And the reasoning of "well then he just shouldn't build decks for this format" is flawed in the best of circumstances.  So please.  We've already discussed the purpose of this column to death, so it feels like you're just beating a dead horse here for the hell of it.
This week's article I'd say is an improvement.  phlip45's deck is still more in line with "budget."
Trade Seachrome Coast for Glacial Fortress, go all basics for the rest, save ~$40. Is the ability to sometimes tap for or on the first turn worth that much money? This deck doesn't even have any strictly blue 1-drops.
Trade Seachrome Coast for Glacial Fortress, go all basics for the rest, save ~$40. Is the ability to sometimes tap for or on the first turn worth that much money? This deck doesn't even have any strictly blue 1-drops.


You could also go with Nimbus Maze, since that's pretty cheap right now as well. Decent mana fixer for $1.50 each. It'd be a Modern only card, though.

Also, I'm finding I either don't get any of the Erayo, or I get flooded with them. I made it so that I'm running 3 Erayo, 3 Canonist, 1 Homunculus, and a  Tezzeret the Seeker (I attempted to run Esper before I quit right when Conflux was released) I still had floating around. Something else I added was a playset of Etherium sculptor, and it helps speed things up if you have everything in your hand. Turn 1: land. Turn 2: land, Sculptor, Turn 3: land, Erayo, Canonist, 2x Probe/0 or 1 drop artifact, GG from the opponent scooping.
surgical extraction seems good if people are playing ancient grudge.

1) another card to play for free
2) timewalks them if you play in response to them paying the flasback cost
3) removes other copies
4) if you have used a probe you may well be able to choose a card you know they have in hand.

to all the budget complainers, total cost of a deck is not the only consideration.

1) A lot of people will have playsets of relavent duals anyway as they are so useful in so many decks. Especially in the post mythic age when rare lands are not so pricey. Seachrome coast may be $12 now, but I'm sure when scars was new it was much cheaper, in factlooking back through my emails i find it was available at $1.75 at one point (ebay buy it now)
2) with the growth of magic lately there will be a lot of player with newer cards but no old cards, the only card not in the last 3 blocks is arayo, so not such a big cost.

I'd also be interested in a non budget version on esper colours, tezzeret seems useful for drawing extra artifacts and for turning things like bauble into threats, his -4 can also be a good finisher.

I liked some of the extra notes, though (adding money, the Bant-version, the post-sideboarding discussion and so on). I just wish we'd see those again next week.



I liked this and hope it continues. We've been asking for an "Adding money to the deck" section for a long time. If he's going to continue, it would be nice to have it (even if he still has yet to get the deck down to where it is relavant).

I have noticed he seems to be ignoring the second matches. I don't have a problem with this. Unless there is a significant play in a 2nd or 3rd round match, just giving the tips on what to do tends to help.

I would like a Sideboard though. That is always the area I am weakest at.


Another $100+ "budget" deck...looks like I will have to do your job for you JVL. 

Budget Modern Erayo

Lands
8 x Island
9 x Plains

Creatures
3 x Court Homunculus ~ 10¢
4 x Erayo, Soratami Ascendant</a> ~ $20
1 x Ethersworn Canonist ~ $3
4 x Memnite ~$3
4 x Ornithopter ~$1
4 x Grand Architect ~$3

Other Spells
4 x Chimeric Mass ~ $1
4 x Gitaxian Probe ~ 20¢
4 x Mishra's Bauble ~ $2
4 x Unsummon ~ 4¢
3 x Springleaf Drum ~ 45¢
4 x Glorious Anthem ~ $6

Total Cost ~ $40

While this deck may not be as powerful as it could be with the right card it is still pretty powerful. The combo will come out just as often as JVL's deck while losing some pushing power but being on a much smaller budget (less than half). However with Grand Architect + Chimeric Mass it is possible to still bring the hurt.

Adding Money to the deck

Glorious Anthem -> Tempered Steel
Chimeric Mass -> Master of Etherium
Grand Architect -> Steel Overseer
Plains/Islands -> Seachrome Coast/Adarkar Wastes/Glacial Fortress

 

Would it be so difficult to do something of this nature? $40 I have a feeling people would agree is a bit more budget and the combo is still there. You can still suggest the actual deck you would like people to try by using the adding money to the deck section, and I'm sure no one would mind if you added additional game logs showing how the deck worked after adding the money to the deck. I mean you would obviously add a little more fleshing out to the article and more talking about the cards but this is only an example.



Perfect.


Normally (such as last week), I agree with budget complaints. But I am inclined to give the budget far more leeway when building for modern over standard, as the decks need to be more potent and older cards tend to be a bit more pricey regardless of actual use.



I disagree with a flexible budget, less it is the exception, not the rule. I don't know anyone who would go; "I only have $10,000 for a new car. But, I want an SUV, so I'll go as high as $17,500." My budget is more likely to shrink, than to raise.


Complainers gonna complain, I guess.

You've been presented with a deck that costs roughly what a single card in Modern Zoo costs, and yet still has the capacity to compete.  He's building around a powerful-but-unexplored rare using mostly commons and uncommons, or rares that are easy to acquire.

Could he give you a $20 Modern deck?  Sure!  Would it ever win?  Probably not!  And the reasoning of "well then he just shouldn't build decks for this format" is flawed in the best of circumstances.  So please.  We've already discussed the purpose of this column to death, so it feels like you're just beating a dead horse here for the hell of it.



Negative feedback isn't complaining. We keep critisizing because JVL almost never meets his mandate of a budget deck. 

 

 




MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Something I think that might please everyone, is if JVL built two decks. The first is a true budget friendly deck (clocking in under $50, preferably much lower). The second being an upgraded version of that deck, at his version of budget. 

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Another $100+ "budget" deck...looks like I will have to do your job for you JVL.

Budget Modern Erayo

Lands
8 x Island
9 x Plains

Creatures
3 x Court Homunculus ~ 10¢
4 x Erayo, Soratami Ascendant</a> ~ $20
1 x Ethersworn Canonist ~ $3
4 x Memnite ~$3
4 x Ornithopter ~$1
4 x Grand Architect ~$3

Other Spells
4 x Chimeric Mass ~ $1
4 x Gitaxian Probe ~ 20¢
4 x Mishra's Bauble ~ $2
4 x Unsummon ~ 4¢
3 x Springleaf Drum ~ 45¢
4 x Glorious Anthem ~ $6

Total Cost ~ $40

While this deck may not be as powerful as it could be with the right card it is still pretty powerful. The combo will come out just as often as JVL's deck while losing some pushing power but being on a much smaller budget (less than half). However with Grand Architect + Chimeric Mass it is possible to still bring the hurt.

Adding Money to the deck

Glorious Anthem -> Tempered Steel
Chimeric Mass -> Master of Etherium
Grand Architect -> Steel Overseer
Plains/Islands -> Seachrome Coast/Adarkar Wastes/Glacial Fortress



Would it be so difficult to do something of this nature? $40 I have a feeling people would agree is a bit more budget and the combo is still there. You can still suggest the actual deck you would like people to try by using the adding money to the deck section, and I'm sure no one would mind if you added additional game logs showing how the deck worked after adding the money to the deck. I mean you would obviously add a little more fleshing out to the article and more talking about the cards but this is only an example.



A budget decklist isn't worth anything if it can't actually compete. You can make tempered steel with glorious anthems, but it will get steamrolled by every deck in the format.
Maybe a budget deckbuilding column isn't the place to try and construct competitive modern/vintage/legacy decks then? I mean there are other, more appropriate places on the net for that. I personally don't even think it's sensible to try and make standard tournament level decks in this column, that is if it involves modifying whatever rogue netdeck is out there and still having it clock in at over 100 dollars.

Obviously the decks should be able to compete, but at what level? Right now the bar is set high enough that apparently JVL can't actually make budget decks. 


Some of you dudes on here need to accept that a chunk of the readership is critical of the column with good reason. It isn't whining, it's constructive criticism because we want more from the column than we're getting. I'm completely willing to accept that a bunch of people like the JVL columns - in fact I bet plenty of people prefer them to Ben or Jay's efforts in the past because they are more 'spike' or 'competitive'. That's cool, I like the columns too, I just don't think they are appropriate for Building on a Budget. They aren't really about building and they aren't on anything I'd recognise as a budget.

It is a bit of a dead horse, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease and this feedback area is here for a reason. If you don't agree with the feedback then discuss it or ignore it, don't criticise the giving of feedback itself.
Trade Seachrome Coast for Glacial Fortress, go all basics for the rest, save ~$40. Is the ability to sometimes tap for or on the first turn worth that much money? This deck doesn't even have any strictly blue 1-drops.



The fact that JVL doesn't even include this simple and straightforward suggestion in his article, let alone make this the primary choice for the deck (with Seachrome being a higher cost alternative), shows that he has absolutely no interest or intention to build decks with any kind of budget in mind.
A budget decklist isn't worth anything if it can't actually compete. You can make tempered steel with glorious anthems, but it will get steamrolled by every deck in the format.


The fact that a deck can't compete in a specific format does not make it worthless. Perhaps it makes it worthless at a tournament, I'll give you that. At casual games however any deck that someone puts together and has fun with is definitely worth something. Not to you maybe, but to the player who sleeved up those cards and is having a good time with the deck it is.
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