Why are binders so awful?

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Okay I want this to do two things.

1) why are they so bad?

2) what new powers, feats and/or class features would you give them to make them optomial to playable?
The basic problem that they have is that they're basically Warlocks without Curse. They can choose their targets a bit more liberally in that their 'pact boon' is triggered when something dies instead of something that is cursed dies.

They have a +1 to hit that's easy to use, but Warlocks have a more limited +1 to hit that has feat support.

The easy way to fix them would be to have some kind of control-based 'curse' similar to what the Hunter has. They could choose to:
Slow their target
Do +Dex or Int damage to a nearby target(as this could auto-kill minions, could be very useful)
Turn an at-will ranged power into a burst 1 power that is -2 to all attack rolls.

Still wouldn't be worth losing curse, but at least it wouldn't be so close to being strictly worse than Warlock.
So with one dragon article adding a power and feat support they'd be a more valid class?
So with one dragon article adding a power and feat support they'd be a more valid class?



Not quite. One other thing that Binders are faulted for are their powers. Specifically, the fact that they are not allowed to freely choose encounter powers (because their Pact chooses encounter powers for them), and that as a whole, the powers themselves aren't really all that controllery. Sure, there are some bursts and such, but on a whole they mostly default to "soft control" (an opponent recieves 5 extra damage because it moved) vs. the "hard control" (such as slowing, which directly limits movement) of other controller powers.
Right so most certainly the worst controller. Can an Owarlock take their encounter powers/higher lvl features
Yes to their powers, no to features. So basically, a regular warlock gets curse, better pact boons, like a million times better feat support (boon/pact bonuses, twofold pact, curse and boosters, prime shot and boosters) and has free choice over all warlock powers, including binder powers. Most of the binder powers are just bad, and the few that are decent can just be poached with impunity. Just build a warlock with more control powers and call it a controller and you are far better off.
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Thank you. IMHO an O class poaching seems far better than a subclass
This appears to be related to WoTC's philosophy on Controllers:

Ok, we'll call the class a controller, take away their damage, give em some powers that are worse than striker powers, do less damage and have a weird and mostly useless effect, and we're good!

I don't think they honestly even know why some controllers are considered good and some are straight up awful.

Look, the O Warlock wasn't a bad controller if built that way to begin with. You can do blinds on command, stuns, dominates, and more, and you have a striker chassis that can be used to make yourself extremely durable, and to do reasonably good damage.

Binder takes all that and flushes it, junks Curse, which is spectacularly supported, and introduces: Nothing useful...*crickets*

Design Decision: "Wait, I'm a designer for WoTC? Wow! Go me!"
This appears to be related to WoTC's philosophy on Controllers:

Ok, we'll call the class a controller, take away their damage, give em some powers that are worse than striker powers, do less damage and have a weird and mostly useless effect, and we're good!

Don't forget the added brilliance of causing a major feature to trigger when they kill something (with their weak damage powers) or when they're next to something that dies (because why not wade into melee as a caster?).
This appears to be related to WoTC's philosophy on Controllers:

Ok, we'll call the class a controller, take away their damage, give em some powers that are worse than striker powers, do less damage and have a weird and mostly useless effect, and we're good!

Don't forget the added brilliance of causing a major feature to trigger when they kill something (with their weak damage powers) or when they're next to something that dies (because why not wade into melee as a caster?).



I flipped through Heroes of Shadow in the store for about 2 minutes, and as soon as I saw that I put the book back on the shelf and walked out.  I was really excited about the Binder because of how much controllery stuff the Warlock already had going for it, and the fact that they pretty much gave it nothing new was really obnoxious.

At least with the Protector Druid, the design team seems to have grasped that, like every other role, controllers should have class features that help them do their job. 
This appears to be related to WoTC's philosophy on Controllers:

Ok, we'll call the class a controller, take away their damage, give em some powers that are worse than striker powers, do less damage and have a weird and mostly useless effect, and we're good!

Don't forget the added brilliance of causing a major feature to trigger when they kill something (with their weak damage powers) or when they're next to something that dies (because why not wade into melee as a caster?).



I flipped through Heroes of Shadow in the store for about 2 minutes, and as soon as I saw that I put the book back on the shelf and walked out.  I was really excited about the Binder because of how much controllery stuff the Warlock already had going for it, and the fact that they pretty much gave it nothing new was really obnoxious.

At least with the Protector Druid, the design team seems to have grasped that, like every other role, controllers should have class features that help them do their job. 



Well they are fairly unique in that regard.   Most controllers have little help from class features for their role.
This appears to be related to WoTC's philosophy on Controllers:

Ok, we'll call the class a controller, take away their damage, give em some powers that are worse than striker powers, do less damage and have a weird and mostly useless effect, and we're good!

Don't forget the added brilliance of causing a major feature to trigger when they kill something (with their weak damage powers) or when they're next to something that dies (because why not wade into melee as a caster?).



I flipped through Heroes of Shadow in the store for about 2 minutes, and as soon as I saw that I put the book back on the shelf and walked out.  I was really excited about the Binder because of how much controllery stuff the Warlock already had going for it, and the fact that they pretty much gave it nothing new was really obnoxious.

At least with the Protector Druid, the design team seems to have grasped that, like every other role, controllers should have class features that help them do their job. 



Well they are fairly unique in that regard.   Most controllers have little help from class features for their role.



+1. I think R&D got caught inbetween a rock and a hard place - if they gave Binder strong controller powers, Warlock would poach them all. Yet they're used to not giving controller features to make them controllers.
This appears to be related to WoTC's philosophy on Controllers:

Ok, we'll call the class a controller, take away their damage, give em some powers that are worse than striker powers, do less damage and have a weird and mostly useless effect, and we're good!

Don't forget the added brilliance of causing a major feature to trigger when they kill something (with their weak damage powers) or when they're next to something that dies (because why not wade into melee as a caster?).



I flipped through Heroes of Shadow in the store for about 2 minutes, and as soon as I saw that I put the book back on the shelf and walked out.  I was really excited about the Binder because of how much controllery stuff the Warlock already had going for it, and the fact that they pretty much gave it nothing new was really obnoxious.

At least with the Protector Druid, the design team seems to have grasped that, like every other role, controllers should have class features that help them do their job. 



Well they are fairly unique in that regard.   Most controllers have little help from class features for their role.



+1. I think R&D got caught inbetween a rock and a hard place - if they gave Binder strong controller powers, Warlock would poach them all. Yet they're used to not giving controller features to make them controllers.



meh they could have always done the easy thing and given the powers riders that only work for binders, or have riders that have good control effects but require you to forgo your curse dice

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I hope the staff that worked on the Binder when they read threads like this feel ashamed of themselves because they should. For the life of me I cannot understand why the editor or design head didnt tell them to go back and try again when it go brought before them.
meh they could have always done the easy thing and given the powers riders that only work for binders(...)



They did. The problem is that even so, the Binder's control is too soft.
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I hope the staff that worked on the Binder when they read threads like this feel ashamed of themselves because they should. For the life of me I cannot understand why the editor or design head didnt tell them to go back and try again when it go brought before them.

Mainly because they don't understand their own game systems very well.

Hearken back to the days of 3e, when they thought the most awesome-est feats of them all were the ones that gave +2 to two different skill checks. I think there's a quote somewhere floating around about that.
+1. I think R&D got caught inbetween a rock and a hard place - if they gave Binder strong controller powers, Warlock would poach them all. Yet they're used to not giving controller features to make them controllers.


meh they could have always done the easy thing and given the powers riders that only work for binders, or have riders that have good control effects but require you to forgo your curse dice



That is, in fact, what they tried to do, but it's far from easy. The binder-specific riders would need to be damn good to compensate for the lack of features. And, in order to compensate for the fixed power selection, binder encounters would need to be quite impressive. Sadly, the developers failed on both accounts.

Another fundamental problem lies in the fact that they didn't even consider giving them something non-poachable for the daily attack slot (arguably the most important for a controller). Again, they should have made dailies with amazing riders for binders (or even binder-specific dailies) for the class to have a chance. As it is, HoS does introduce some cool controller dailies, but regular warlocks (and hexblades) can make much better use of them than any binder.

As a design experiment, I tried to put these ideas into practice and 'fix' the Binder through extensive house ruling. This involved changing almost all their powers, either to make them better, or to make them weaker in the hands of non-binders - or both.

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So is heroes of shadow a poor quality book? Lots of the classes get schtick here.
So is heroes of shadow a poor quality book? Lots of the classes get schtick here.

It's pretty bad.

Not to say there arn't a few things worth while, but overall, it's probably the worse balanced book since PHB1.

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The blackguard is a solid class at least.  I think it is well recognized as a good class.

The death domain warpriest has potential, but its powers are a mix.  The at wills and one of the encounter power sets (death's surge) are good.  One encounter power set (ravens talon) is ok.  One of the 3 encounter power sets (inevitable doom) is really bad and you need to power swap it out, probably with an invoker power.  If you do that it is a reasonably effective leader/controller and it has some decent build features.  If the inevitable doom set had been a non standard action power like an OA it would be ok, but it is almost always not a good use of a leader's standard action, especially a cleric who has very good standard action encounter utilities.

Binder is weak and about all it does is give warlocks some stuff to poach.

I don't much care for the assasin, but it is better than the binder and the Ossasin from what I hear.

The races are a mix.  The revenant is good, but its not new to 4e.  The vryloka is ok and it at least gives another str/cha option with a good racial power and high speed.  The shade is bad.
The Blackguard is moderately gimpy (on-rails power selection and down a daily for 14 levels) and highly redunandant.



It's pretty easy to play the damage stacking game with them though, although I agree with your points as well. I'm not really sure who thought giving essentials paladins no dailies at first level was a good idea.
Executioner and Blackguard both get a lot more fun in hybrid form. Executioner is actually pretty unique in that it can be a fully contributing hybrid half without demanding any specific primary stat, and h-Blackguard is fairly flexible as well with the option of going STR or all-out CHA.

I wouldn't say they're the best options out there, but they're fun to play around with and can work with other hybrid halves in a slightly different way than most classes.  I'm still never going to buy HoS, but I do find myself exploring a fair amount of the material in the CB.

As for why the Binder was written the way it was, I really think they just wanted to try putting fluff ahead of everything else.  Instead of area blind spells, they create areas that block line of sight which often end up being just as debilitating to your allies as your enemies.  I really think they just tried to approach powers with "what would be cinematic and flavorful?" rather than "what does the average controller encounter do at this level?"
^+1.  HoS was mostly trash, all the Blackguard is good for is cheese, the only reason to play a vampire is, uhhhh.... yeah, and the binder is just bad.
As to the fluff vs crunch, I agree, you need to work backward, for example, a power that TP an enemy in the air and drops him might look like:

What goes up...         Warlock attack
Encounter+Teleportation, Implement
Target: one creature-----Ranged 10
Effect: Charisma modifier damage
Attack: Charisma vs Will
Hit: You teleport the target xyz squares in any direction. If the direction is straight up, the target always falls back to its origin square, regardless of gravity. The target always takes xyz damage. The target does not get a saving throw to avoid being forced into harmful or blocking terrain, and it does not get a saving throw to avoid being teleported straight up.

Fluffy and crunchy.
Personally I've tried my best to make a Binder that's even passable to me as a character concept -- meaning regardless of optimization or lack thereof -- and frankly I find even the Vampire better mechanically and fluff-wise, because even with the lack of initial options and striker-y goodness, at least the Vampire works at all *and* there's no equivalent subclass to compare it to anyway.

[ This doesn't include the fact that with the playtest(?) article on the Hybrid and Multiclass options for the HoS classes, you could readily get away with making a DEX/CHA character that's almost all Vampire. ]

The Binder is a ranged controller whose features trigger when either he drops a target to 0 HP (not a controller's job) or an enemy adjacent to him drops to 0 HP (not supposed to be in melee, with no features to compensate for that) and on top of that has mostly the same problems as other essentials classes up to that book: virtually no customizability.

Seriously, with the exact same parameters save for swapping Binder with o-Warlock, I got a lot more out of the Warlock than the Binder.


- - - - -
If I were to make a suggestion on how to fix the Binder as is, there would be a lot of changes, starting with:

  1. Pact At-Wills


  • Shadow Warp: Change the range to "Close Burst 10" and the trigger to "A creature within 10 squares of you takes damage" with appropriate fluff alteration

  • Hidden Lore: Change the trigger to "A creature within 10 squares of you takes damage" and the effect is changed from "invisible" to "hidden from all enemies"; invisibility only makes you imperceptible by sight, not sound nor other means of detection

  • I'd probably turn both powers from Once per Round to Once per Turn


  • Overall Power Design


    • I'd rather have that the Gloom Pact Binder is more on slow, immobilize, restrain, and anti-teleport, as well as those that grant forced movement and teleportation, while the Star Pact Binder is more on penalizing attack rolls and defenses, focusing on stuff like Blindness, Will penalization, and psychic type attacks


      • This is in keeping with the Gloom Pact Binder being a shadow binder, and a Star Pact Binder being a binder that utilizes the madness associated with the Far Realm

      • While this might make the Star Pact Binder more appealing initially, I'm also thinking that the proposed Gloom Pact Binder's anti-teleport and forced movement would be beneficial to parties who would have to deal with teleporting enemies; fluff-wise it's so easy to have anti-teleporting encounter powers as having the Shadowfell pulling away at enemies trying to bend time and space so that they're bound to the current plane and the current position.




    Otherwise I'd redesign the Binder as a whole, granting them maybe something like:

    Shadow Bound | Warlock Utility
    At-Will * Arcane, Fear, Implement, Shadow
    Minor Action | Ranged 5
    Target: One creature
    Level 11: One or two creatures
    Level 21: One or two creatures and each creature adjacent to the targets
    Effect: The target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
    Sustain Minor: The target is instead immobilized until the end of your next turn.

    Madness Bound | Warlock Utility
    At-Will * Arcane, Fear
    Minor Action | Ranged 5
    Target: One creature
    Level 11: One or two creatures
    Level 21: One or two creatures and each creature adjacent to the targets
    Effect: The target grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn.
    Sustain Minor: The target continues to grant combat advantage, and has a -1 penalty to Will defense, until the end of your next turn.

    These are just from the top of my head, and something for Homebrew, not CharOp.  In line with the topic at hand, suffice to say that making a Binder is not worth the effort at all.  Even a Hexblade would be more interesting -_-'
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    57047238 wrote:
    If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
    I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
    This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
    Thanks to the Skald the bard can use any stat as well with a feat or two.

    Pure Blackguard is usually medium to upper.medium tier striker damage wise, but is also far more durable then any other striker with Paladin's NADs bonus, Surges, HP, armour, and Shield prof, tougher then argueablely the Bezerker, so he's he least squishy striker. Personally my favourite thing about HOS was the Blackguard, Necro/nethermancer, Gloomhexblade, Death Warpriest and Nocturnal and Dread Oracle pps. Binder has good flavour it just needs a special feat or two to buff it. Maybe a feat that causes all Binder powers to cause slow.
    Hybred Blackguard does rock, partly because Dread Smite is awesome and can be stacked on any weapon at will, partly because it grants good profiencies. example is my Passion Knight build Ardent/Blackguard.
    Any class could have any stat for their MBA for a feat, it's just a few points of damage lost with Melee Training.  Optimally though there are alternatives that have the same cost as a feat (if not an alternate power for hybrids, half-elves etc.), but whatever *shrugs*

    Binder has good flavour it just needs a special feat or two to buff it. Maybe a feat that causes all Binder powers to cause slow.

    I'm not too hot on that idea, given how the feat still wouldn't fix the basic feature problem that had the Binder basically is a Hexblade with no blade, and worse.

    Honestly, what does the Binder do that the Warlock can't do (and do better, I might add)?

    The problem with the Binder is that while the R&D team found a niche for the Binder -- like how the Hexblade is the more striker-y version of the O-Warlock, the Binder could've been the more controller-y version of the O-Warlock and the awesomeness of I dunno making pacts with powerful creatures for world domination and turning that power you gained against the foolish creatures who granted that power to you? -- the execution falls squarely flat.

    They should've had only the at-wills and warlock's ally being more subclass-bound, and given a more distinct feel and mechanical distinction for the class.

    At worst they should've copy pasted the o-Warlock's Warlock's Curse and changed the damage mechanic into a control mechanic.  Since it's a controller subclass, after all. 
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    57047238 wrote:
    If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
    I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
    This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
    Yeah, sadly HoS was a pretty poor book.  The Blackguard's OK, the Mage schools are OK, the Hexflail's OK, but everything else is poor-to-dreadful, and pretty poorly written.
    Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
    Thanks to the Skald the bard can use any stat as well with a feat or two. Pure Blackguard is usually medium to upper.medium tier striker damage wise, but is also far more durable then any other striker with Paladin's NADs bonus, Surges, HP, armour, and Shield prof, tougher then argueablely the Bezerker, so he's he least squishy striker. Personally my favourite thing about HOS was the Blackguard, Necro/nethermancer, Gloomhexblade, Death Warpriest and Nocturnal and Dread Oracle pps. Binder has good flavour it just needs a special feat or two to buff it. Maybe a feat that causes all Binder powers to cause slow. Hybred Blackguard does rock, partly because Dread Smite is awesome and can be stacked on any weapon at will, partly because it grants good profiencies. example is my Passion Knight build Ardent/Blackguard.



    Gonna have to disagree here. A Conlock is incredibly tough, particularly an Infernal Pact Lock.

    The Blackguard is tough, and has good AC, but a Conlock not only has ungodly piles of surges and temp HP, he actively terrifies the DM into not attacking him for fear of Hellish Rebuke.
    Any class could have any stat for their MBA for a feat, it's just a few points of damage lost with Melee Training.  Optimally though there are alternatives that have the same cost as a feat (if not an alternate power for hybrids, half-elves etc.), but whatever *shrugs*

    This is not really the same as the versatility achieved by the Skald or Executioner.  They don't have a single power tied to a stat, so their encounter and daily powers are also useable by anyone.

    Sure, you could make a Wizard|Fighter dumping STR with MT:Int for MBAs.  But the fighter encounter and dailies you are forced to take are going to be useless.

    In short, a flexible MBA does not equal a flexible class unless it's a class that only makes MBAs.
    Executioner is actually pretty unique in that it can be a fully contributing hybrid half without demanding any specific primary stat,



    Executioner hybrid really needs to get the wording cleaned up. I've seen that CB implemented it as written, which lets you see the wonkiness in action.
    The 2 guild at-wills you get for free frees you up to pick up either two at-wills from your other half-class, or you can do 1 & 1 and get an oAssassin at-will. This is the up-shot in terms of flexibility.
    The daily slot, however, puts you in an odd pickle as you must take an oAssassin daily or 2 poisons, since taking a poison does not count as taking an Assassin Daily attack power, and you still can't take a 2nd daily from your other half-class without taking an Assassin Daily.
    Apparently Assassin's Strike (and the similarly termed encounter power replacements) are officially 'Assassin Encounter Attack Powers" (or the equivalent) so they fill the slot they are expected to.

    So the net down-side is to be independant of Dex you need to pick up 2 poisons and have only one daily from your other half-class, offset by the option to get 2 at-wills from your other half-class (and presumably ignore the guild at-wills if you are actually low-dex).     
    Sure, you could make a Wizard|Fighter dumping STR with MT:Int for MBAs.  But the fighter encounter and dailies you are forced to take are going to be useless.



    Fighter has a lot of solid Str-independant dailies. They don't have Str-independant encounters, but Shield Edge Block can be a solid option IMO, as it has a nice Effect line (immediate interrupt vs melee  or close attack: effect: triggering attack roll is -4). I don't know if your Str-dumped Wizard|Fighter is going to have the shield for it, but my Str-dumped Fighter|Battlemind certainly does.
    Sure, you could make a Wizard|Fighter dumping STR with MT:Int for MBAs.  But the fighter encounter and dailies you are forced to take are going to be useless.

    Fighter has a lot of solid Str-independant dailies. They don't have Str-independant encounters, but Shield Edge Block can be a solid option IMO, as it has a nice Effect line (immediate interrupt vs melee  or close attack: effect: triggering attack roll is -4). I don't know if your Str-dumped Wizard|Fighter is going to have the shield for it, but my Str-dumped Fighter|Battlemind certainly does.

    True, fighter wasn't the best example. But you get my point - Melee Training does not equate to hybrid stat independence in most cases.
    Sure, you could make a Wizard|Fighter dumping STR with MT:Int for MBAs.  But the fighter encounter and dailies you are forced to take are going to be useless.

    Fighter has a lot of solid Str-independant dailies. They don't have Str-independant encounters, but Shield Edge Block can be a solid option IMO, as it has a nice Effect line (immediate interrupt vs melee  or close attack: effect: triggering attack roll is -4). I don't know if your Str-dumped Wizard|Fighter is going to have the shield for it, but my Str-dumped Fighter|Battlemind certainly does.

    True, fighter wasn't the best example. But you get my point - Melee Training does not equate to hybrid stat independence in most cases.



    Yes, and your point is quite valid. Hybrids are quite a mixed bag for stat dependance on the whole, ranging from Executioner (which can be pretty much purely stat-indepedant at the cost of either 'losing' 1 daily or taking 2 poisons as dailies) to Sorcerers which are pretty much still tied to Cha + Str or Dex.
    well wat are options to make binders better ?

    I enjoy the summon warlock's ally power and would like to see a worlock that would make better use of it.


    Shadow Warp and Hidden Lore
    should have the text :
    Trigger: You reduce a creature to 0 hit points, or an enemy adjacent to you drops to 0 hit points.
    chagnged into:
    Trigger: You or your warlock's ally reduce a creature to 0 hit points, or an enemy adjacent to you or your warlock's ally drops to 0 hit points.


     add a minor warlock's ally that the binder gets as class power or as his LVL 1 daylie
    Knowing WoTC, they'll "Fix" the issue with feat taxes.

    You are better off to just ignore Binders. They were a waste of space to print, and serve no purpose. Warlock makes a decent controller anyway, just make a Warlock. You'll be far happier.
    2) what new powers, feats and/or class features would you give them to make them optomial to playable?



    I don't know if it would be enough, but here's what I'd do:

    - Change the second of Shadow Warp's/Hidden Lore's triggers from "adjacent enemy drops to 0 hit points" to "enemy in close burst 5 drops to 0 hit points".
    - Increase the damage of all Binder powers (including the summons) by one die.
    - Increase all fixed cold, necrotic or psychic damage dealt by Shadow powers by 2 per tier, but only for Binders.
    - All Gloom Pact Binder powers that push or slide an enemy (except for Shadow Warp) also cause slow, but only for Gloom Pact Binders. In addition, increase the distance of the pushes/slides by 2 squares (including Shadow Warp).
    - Change all zones that block line of sight so that they only block line of sight from the inside out.
    Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - [i]Hávamál[/i] D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. )
    Knowing WoTC, they'll "Fix" the issue with feat taxes.

    You are better off to just ignore Binders. They were a waste of space to print, and serve no purpose. Warlock makes a decent controller anyway, just make a Warlock. You'll be far happier.


    This. There's not much to salvage from the class and you get better control playing a Fey Pact Warlock.
    The best idea is just think of the binder as an article for some new warlock powers to choose from.  Makes it a whole lot more enjoyable.  The binder is sadly the biggest fail in HoS not due to being very mediocre in its job but because everything it does can be done the same or better by a standard warlock.  At least everything else in HoS can at least be mechanically or thematically useful or interesting even if it is not the best option in the world.
    Yeah, once the at-wills became poachable, I really lost my ill will towards the Binder. I don't like them as a class, but I appreciate some of the things they have to offer other warlocks.
    Yeah, once the at-wills became poachable, I really lost my ill will towards the Binder. I don't like them as a class, but I appreciate some of the things they have to offer other warlocks.



    Yea some decent at wills, AOE encounter powers, and some new dailies (including a summon) make for at least interesting new choices for the warlock.  Hey can you choose the binder pacts with the twofold pact feat?
    (...)and some new dailies (including a summon)(...)



    Wait, you can use Summon Warlock's Ally with a regular Warlock?
    Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - [i]Hávamál[/i] D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. )
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