Supercomputer scan: Bloodhunger "deep blue" build designed to dominate DLC2

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I use the term "unbeatable build" very frequently and many people try and hold that against me so I'm just going to say this build is "borderline unbeatable".

I was just toying around on my supercomputer trying to generate dominant decks, entering the new card stats into the system from DLC2, etc...when I came up with this.

Why am I sharing this? Because I like all of you and want you to win. I not only want you to win. I want you to crush. like you having 50 life and the other guy negative 50.

Why should you try this build?
1. the S.C. indicates it is a statistical favorite against all decks.
2. there is a huge over-representation of black magic. This deck exploits this weakness of the game.

I don't know about you but I like to win. I only play the best decks. Winning is fun and I'm a competitive person. I don't play a deck because I like the creatures in it, or like the theme, or if the magic color of the deck "matches my personality traits". I play a deck for one reason and one reason only. winning. and statistical odds.

Just tested it, here are my thoughts:

I went 20-1. w/l. The times I played the same opponent more than once, I flat out told the guy that I was taking vampires again. I told him to pick the best counter. He did. He still lost.

This is on steam on the pc since ps3 doesn't come out until tuesday. Faced a ton of zombies and still a ton of people using GW.

Without further delay:

demon's horn 3x .....see my other thread about lifegain artifacts to get clued in.

blade of the bloodchief 1x


quag vampires 1x just a cheap 1 cast creature to sac.

tormented soul 3x


bloodghast 1x .....vampire aristocrat's best friend.

child of night 2x good candidate for urge to feed.

feast of blood 2x

gatekeeper of malakir 2x this card is only good for its removal ability when it is first cast. feel free to sacrifice it to an aristocrat later.

urge to feed 2x use this defensively on blocking creatures with summon sickness during your opponents attack phase.

vicious hunger 2x

bloodhusk ritualist 1x kick it. kick it right through the uprights...with like 5 or 6 mana.

captivating vampire 1x useless card but good burn bait.

vampire aristocrat 2x sacrifice creatures before your opponents burn spell hits them.

vampire nighthawk 2x

barter in blood 2x cast this on turn 4 and don't cast any creatures on the three turns before it. You're almost garunteed getting this card or a gatekeeper in every game. The supercomputer says so. If you cast this card late game....pause it and give vampire aristocrat a +4/4 bonus using the creatures you have to sacrifice anyway.

mirri the cursed 1x burn bait.

sangromancer 1x i love lifegain!

vampire nocturnus 1x

vampire outcasts 2x

corrupt 2x

skeletal vampire 1x  basically a bat factory for junk creatures to sacrifice

butcher of malakir 1x if you've never had this bad boy out coupled with the above creature, you're missing out. seriously.


There it is already tested it on steam with DLC2. It decimates. This build is the new realm of illusion.

Feel free to post constructive criticism.

Uncontructive criticism is welcome also.
Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali
Why am I sharing this? Because I like all of you and want you to win. I not only want you to win. I want you to crush. like you having 50 life and the other guy negative 50.



Thank you for demonstrating yet another flaw in your strategy.  Why delay the game to build up life and attemtp to deal 50 damage when you can finish the game quickly, lose a little life but get your opponent to zero first?  Sounds to me like you are using an ineffecient build just to try and 'crush' your opponent.  I'd much rather win quickly and move on to the next player rather than trying to build up pointless life and deal significant damage, all the while giving my opponent a chance to draw the card that can cost me the game.  I'm sorry but your ego is your own greatest enemy and your strategy is heavily flawed, although you seem to be blind to it each and every time you troll this forum with your posts.
I don't know about you but I like to win. I only play the best decks and I pump my flamekin brawler with one land during my opponents turn hoping it skips his main phase.



Stay classy g0mbl3rr!

Seriously, for as much as they like to mod me for my vulgarity and general ease of being annoyed, they sure don't seem to take the part of the code of conduct about baiting very seriously.

Namely this one.



  • Troll or bait the community in general with inflammatory statements, such as ones designed to elicit a negative response from the community


This will likely get modded since I am talking about the moderators here, but it really needs to be said.

"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
this is not a "troll". it is a helpful post that contains the best possible build out of all possible decks in the game.

stop whinning to the moderators and tryign to get my thread closed when im sharing helpful information to other players.

why don't you comment on the winning decklist that was actually posted.
Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali


Thank you for demonstrating yet another flaw in your strategy.  Why delay the game to build up life and attemtp to deal 50 damage when you can finish the game quickly, lose a little life but get your opponent to zero first?  Sounds to me like you are using an ineffecient build just to try and 'crush' your opponent.  I'd much rather win quickly and move on to the next player rather than trying to build up pointless life and deal significant damage, all the while giving my opponent a chance to draw the card that can cost me the game.  I'm sorry but your ego is your own greatest enemy and your strategy is heavily flawed, although you seem to be blind to it each and every time you troll this forum with your posts.



that was a figure of speech. i don't get why everyone on this forums takes every single word literally.

give my deck list a chance. i think you will really like it if you play it properly.
Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali


barter in blood 2x cast this on turn 4 and don't cast any creatures on the three turns before it. You're almost garunteed getting this card or a gatekeeper in every game. The supercomputer says so. If you cast this card late game....pause it and give vampire aristocrat a +4/4 bonus using the creatures you have to sacrifice anyway.



You can't use the aristocrat this way when also using barter in blood.   You can't sacrifice 1 creature for 2 different sacrifice effects.  That'd be like tapping one mountain and being able to use it to cast 2 lightning bolts.  If you can, in fact, do what you described above in DotP2012 then it is a bug and you are exploiting it and to encourage people on the forums to exploit bugs should be some sort of offense.

Besides doing nothing for three turns, just to take advantage of a turn-4 play is generally considered bad play anyways.  This is especially bad if you are on the draw instead of the play.  Allowing your opponenent 4 uninterrupted turns is just asking for bad things to happen.


I'm sure your build works with the current metagame and I'm sure that against zombies and vamps and gravewhisper you do really good with those demon's horn.  I will give you that.  you do know your metagame.  In any other situation Demon's Horn is a crap card, and once people start to shift towards decks that are good against what is being played right now, this build won't do so well.  

Honestly with all the lifelink in this deck, I don't know why you think you need the extra lifegain from the artifacts. 

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

that was a figure of speech. i don't get why everyone on this forums takes every single word literally.

give my deck list a chance. i think you will really like it if you play it properly.



Because on a forum the only thing you have to go by is the words that were posted.  I don't understand why you feel that anyone on this forum still takes you seriously since your posts are filled with baiting comments and remarks that degrade others while painting yourself as somehow superior to the rest of us.  You provide absolutely no evidence to support your claims of greatness either other than statements that have no validity such as going 20-1.

And lastly, your killer combo requires 2 cards out of 60 with 7 swamps to even run it.  Most Vampire deck matches should be finished if not already secured by that point.  Sure the combo works well when you can get it but even your 'supercomputer' should tell you that the odds of this happening are rare at best.  And where is Drana?
this is not a "troll". it is a helpful post that contains the best possible build out of all possible decks in the game.

stop whinning to the moderators and tryign to get my thread closed when im sharing helpful information to other players.

why don't you comment on the winning decklist that was actually posted.



that was a figure of speech. i don't get why everyone on this forums takes every single word literally.

give my deck list a chance. i think you will really like it if you play it properly.



Because on a forum the only thing you have to go by is the words that were posted.  I don't understand why you feel that anyone on this forum still takes you seriously since your posts are filled with baiting comments and remarks that degrade others while painting yourself as somehow superior to the rest of us.  You provide absolutely no evidence to support your claims of greatness either other than statements that have no validity such as going 20-1.

And lastly, your killer combo requires 2 cards out of 60 with 7 swamps to even run it.  Most Vampire deck matches should be finished if not already secured by that point.  Sure the combo works well when you can get it but even your 'supercomputer' should tell you that the odds of this happening are rare at best.  And where is Drana?



HieroGlyph pretty much summed what I had to say.

Not only are you giving incorrect information (Barter in Blood and Vampire Aristocrat for example).

Not only do you give terrible deck builds.

Not only do you make asinine claims (supercomputer....need I say more?).

Not only do you admit to using exploits to win(and proudly I might add).

Not only do you claim nearly 100% win ratios for every single build you ever post.

But worst of all, you have the hubris to act like you are the be all, end all, best player in the entire world, and you belittle those who disagree with you.

The combination of all of the above has lead to the vast majority of the community believing you are trolling.

Hence my previous comment.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
Just stumbled on this post. I think what it's trying to say is a Supercomputer has determined that Blood Hunger is another powerful black deck. Thank you Wizards.

For the record, I determined that with my XBox.
I checked the code of conduct and, unfortunately, there is nothing in there that says that promoting the use of bugs or glitches (which he does twice in his OP) is an offense.  I just hope that newer players don't read this and think that it's cool to use things like activated abilities during your opponenets turn to make them skip their main phase.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

Enough already dude. Nobody here think your decks are funny. You had your stupid 15 minutes already. Give it a rest.
I beat a half-assed vampire opponent yesterday, playing the blade, bat and un-bloodthirsted Bloodridge vampire on first 3 turns respectively. I also played Deep Blue, dont know if they were the same. I might be the "1 in those 20".

Why should you try this build?

2. there is a huge over-representation of black magic. This deck exploits this weakness of the game.

...

quag vampires 1x just a cheap 1 cast creature to sac.




How can you, at one point, claim that this deck is designed to counter the black decks, and then go and dismiss one of the best creatures you can use against black decks?

You only cast Quag Vamps on turn 1 if you have a lot of bloodthirst in your hand, or simply do not have anything you can play (creature wise) until turn 4.  ESPECIALLY against black decks.  You do realize this card can become 3/3 or 4/4 pretty easily late game?  Hell, I've cast this dude as a 5/5 before. 


You do know what "Swampwalk" means don't you?   Because if you do, then you obviously (or oblivously, take your pick) have no idea how to evaluate the strength of any given card in any given meta-game.  And if you don't, then I'm pretty sure people can finally stop taking your advice to heart, and just laugh at the joke when they see you make it.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

captivating vampire[/c] 1x useless card but good burn bait.



...because a great creature with low mana cost, +1/+1 effect and a dangerous lategame ability is useless....

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

I don't know about you but I like to win. I only play the best decks and I pump my flamekin brawler with one land during my opponents turn hoping it skips his main phase.



Stay classy g0mbl3rr!

Seriously, for as much as they like to mod me for my vulgarity and general ease of being annoyed, they sure don't seem to take the part of the code of conduct about baiting very seriously.

Namely this one.



  • Troll or bait the community in general with inflammatory statements, such as ones designed to elicit a negative response from the community


This will likely get modded since I am talking about the moderators here, but it really needs to be said.




I second this complaint. He just provokes people by insulting them, claiming the impossible, posting non-sense decklists backed up by flawed logic and when you respond in the appropriate manner, your post gets deleted, not his. Wtf...



I have some good advice for you g0mbl3rr: Since your revolution of deck building seems to be throwing lifegain into top tier decks and winning, because it's just hard to lose with any RoI or BH build, why not simply play a deck that actually benefits from all the lifegain? March to War looks like it's made for you.
I beat a half-assed vampire opponent yesterday, playing the blade, bat and un-bloodthirsted Bloodridge vampire on first 3 turns respectively. I also played Deep Blue, dont know if they were the same. I might be the "1 in those 20".



hey dont get confused im not the OP if you were referring to me when we played zombie vs march to war deck


Not only are you giving incorrect information (Barter in Blood and Vampire Aristocrat for example).

Not only do you give terrible deck builds.

Not only do you make asinine claims (supercomputer....need I say more?).

Not only do you admit to using exploits to win(and proudly I might add).

Not only do you claim nearly 100% win ratios for every single build you ever post.

But worst of all, you have the hubris to act like you are the be all, end all, best player in the entire world, and you belittle those who disagree with you.

The combination of all of the above has lead to the vast majority of the community believing you are trolling.

Hence my previous comment.



Wow he just handed g0mbl3rr his ass on a silver platter.

Come on guys, I'm waiting for g0mbl3rr's rebuttal. That is also one of the worst deck builds for BH I've ever seen. Having the demon's horns in a lifegain deck is redundant, even when playing against another black deck. And this build would get utterly destroyed in a mirror match that's properly made with maximum Quag Vampires, Drana, ect. I think your "supercomputer" *rolls eyes* is malfunctioning.

Well, the problem might be that he's still using Deep Blue, while everyone else has upgraded to Rybka :P
Well, the problem might be that he's still using Deep Blue, while everyone else has upgraded to Rybka :P




I wouldn't use a computer designed for Chess to evaluate the playability of an Island, let alone an entire magic deck.   Magic has far more nuances than Chess does.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

Not to mention the fact that he keeps creating new threads that clutter up the boards when he could just as easily make his posts in the threads specifically meant for deck editing and card discussion.

Sadly, it is likely our only hope is to just ignore the inane threads/posts he continues to make in the hopes that he will get bored and move on.

"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."

barter in blood 2x cast this on turn 4 and don't cast any creatures on the three turns before it. You're almost garunteed getting this card or a gatekeeper in every game. The supercomputer says so. If you cast this card late game....pause it and give vampire aristocrat a +4/4 bonus using the creatures you have to sacrifice anyway.

Feel free to post constructive criticism.



You've never played this deck.
You've never played Magic before for that matter.
Everything you say is untrue.

That's about as constructive as I can get.

barter in blood 2x cast this on turn 4 and don't cast any creatures on the three turns before it. You're almost garunteed getting this card or a gatekeeper in every game. The supercomputer says so. If you cast this card late game....pause it and give vampire aristocrat a +4/4 bonus using the creatures you have to sacrifice anyway.

Feel free to post constructive criticism.



You've never played this deck.
You've never played Magic before for that matter.
Everything you say is untrue.

That's about as constructive as I can get.



LOL!!! Yep he didn't play this deck much and concludes strategy that utterly fails.
And for my constructive criticism when you use Vampire Aristocrat's ability in response to Barter in Blood you are sacrificing creature for Aristocrat not for Barter in Blood which means you're thining out Barters potential target possibly leaving your fat vampire dead through sacrifice.

We need threads like this IMO with all the bad news we have now.
I beat a half-assed vampire opponent yesterday, playing the blade, bat and un-bloodthirsted Bloodridge vampire on first 3 turns respectively. I also played Deep Blue, dont know if they were the same. I might be the "1 in those 20".



hey dont get confused im not the OP if you were referring to me when we played zombie vs march to war deck




Ups I thought you were him. My apologies. I caught your nickname in the forum after posting that message  



barter in blood 2x cast this on turn 4 and don't cast any creatures on the three turns before it. You're almost garunteed getting this card or a gatekeeper in every game. The supercomputer says so. If you cast this card late game....pause it and give vampire aristocrat a +4/4 bonus using the creatures you have to sacrifice anyway.



You can't use the aristocrat this way when also using barter in blood.   You can't sacrifice 1 creature for 2 different sacrifice effects.  That'd be like tapping one mountain and being able to use it to cast 2 lightning bolts.  If you can, in fact, do what you described above in DotP2012 then it is a bug and you are exploiting it and to encourage people on the forums to exploit bugs should be some sort of offense.



Here's my rebuttal to this statement: doing the above or pumping a flamekin during your opponents turn isn't a bug. You saying that it is a bug doesn't make it one. DoTP2012 is NOT magic the gathering. They do not have the same rules and are actually 2 different games. Doing the above is a winning strategy for DoTP2012. If it were a bug, then wizards wouldn't have put it in the game or the play testers would have removed it.

Besides doing nothing for three turns, just to take advantage of a turn-4 play is generally considered bad play anyways.  This is especially bad if you are on the draw instead of the play.  Allowing your opponenent 4 uninterrupted turns is just asking for bad things to happen.



I'm tempted to agree with you because you seem pretty knowledgable about the game, but you didn't post evidence for this claim with concrete examples. What's the worst that can happen 4 turns deep?
 
The problem with "general rules of play" is that there is always an exception. This deck might be that one exception. Are you familiar with the King's Gambit opening move in chess? I have the 20 most common openign lines all memorized. The barter in blood strategy is like a king's gambit. You sacrifice a little bit of "life" or "advantage" early to dominate the later stages of the game. That's just me with a game theory background.



I'm sure your build works with the current metagame and I'm sure that against zombies and vamps and gravewhisper you do really good with those demon's horn.  I will give you that.  you do know your metagame.



you are darn right sir.

 
In any other situation Demon's Horn is a crap card, and once people start to shift towards decks that are good against what is being played right now, this build won't do so well.



At that point in time, I will edit my deck or fire up the SC and generate a new build. That's the beauty of the game, it is constantly changing. Adapt or go extinct. Heraclitus' world of flux for you. 

Honestly with all the lifelink in this deck, I don't know why you think you need the extra lifegain from the artifacts. 



they secure the win. Can you win without them? yes. You are just huge statistical favorite right now with them in. Winning most games 30-nil.

Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali
So you are saying that the Skip-Turn Bug is not a bug but an actual feature of the game?

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.


You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...


Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.


If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violations, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.


I'm tempted to agree with you because you seem pretty knowledgable about the game, but you didn't post evidence for this claim with concrete examples. What's the worst that can happen 4 turns deep?
 




You can lose the game.  Since you want examples:

WS
T1 - Kor Duelist
T2 - Stoneforge Mystic getting Sword of War and Peace Attack with Duelist - 1 damage
T3 - Trusty Machette - Kor Outfitter putting the machette on Duelist, attack with duelist - 7 damage
T4 - Tap Mystic for the Sword, Equip sword on the Duelist, attack with duelist your dead

RoI
T1 - Phantasmal Bear
T2 - Krovikan Mist attack with bear - 2 damage
T3 - Phantasmal Bear Krovikan Mist attack with 1st mist and bear - 8 damage
T4 - Don't even need to cast, all out attack - your dead

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster


Why should you try this build?

2. there is a huge over-representation of black magic. This deck exploits this weakness of the game.

...

quag vampires 1x just a cheap 1 cast creature to sac.




How can you, at one point, claim that this deck is designed to counter the black decks, and then go and dismiss one of the best creatures you can use against black decks?

You only cast Quag Vamps on turn 1 if you have a lot of bloodthirst in your hand, or simply do not have anything you can play (creature wise) until turn 4.  ESPECIALLY against black decks.  You do realize this card can become 3/3 or 4/4 pretty easily late game?  Hell, I've cast this dude as a 5/5 before. 


You do know what "Swampwalk" means don't you?   Because if you do, then you obviously (or oblivously, take your pick) have no idea how to evaluate the strength of any given card in any given meta-game.  And if you don't, then I'm pretty sure people can finally stop taking your advice to heart, and just laugh at the joke when they see you make it.



Good point. The problem is...with all good decks...what do you take out? I suppose it swap it in for a tormented soul. Then again not really a game changing substitution.

If your opponent has to sacrifice all of his creatures because of barter in blood or butcher of malakir, then for all intensive purposes, all of your creatures have "swamp walk" anyway.

Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali


Good point. The problem is...with all good decks...what do you take out? I suppose it swap it in for a tormented soul. Then again not really a game changing substitution.



The demon's horns.  You don't need 30 life to win a game.  All you need is 1.   And since you're unwilling to budge on that one, yes the tormented soul would work.   The vamp is kickable for +1/+1 tokens.


If your opponent has to sacrifice all of his creatures because of barter in blood or butcher of malakir, then for all intensive purposes, all of your creatures have "swamp walk" anyway.




You will not always be able to remove all of his creatures.  In fact, you more often than not, will not be able to remove all of his creatures.





and it's "For all intents and purposes"

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

captivating vampire[/c] 1x useless card but good burn bait.



...because a great creature with low mana cost, +1/+1 effect and a dangerous lategame ability is useless....



against thinking opponents at the highest level where the game is played (near the top of the leaderboard where i play),

cards like those and lord of illusion don't last very long. They are dispatched on the same turn or shortly after they are cast. You will never get to use the lategame ability. not even vs a 80 card deck.
Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali
captivating vampire[/c] 1x useless card but good burn bait.



...because a great creature with low mana cost, +1/+1 effect and a dangerous lategame ability is useless....



against thinking opponents at the highest level where the game is played (near the top of the leaderboard where i play),

cards like those and lord of illusion don't last very long. They are dispatched on the same turn or shortly after they are cast. You will never get to use the lategame ability. not even vs a 80 card deck.





"Because it can be removed" is not a reason to not use a card.   Do you think that people didn't play Necropotence simply because you can remove enchantments with a 2cmc card?

By that logic, you should drop Sangromancer and Vampire Nocturnus.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster


I'm tempted to agree with you because you seem pretty knowledgable about the game, but you didn't post evidence for this claim with concrete examples. What's the worst that can happen 4 turns deep?
 




You can lose the game.  Since you want examples:

WS
T1 - Kor Duelist
T2 - Stoneforge Mystic getting Sword of War and Peace Attack with Duelist - 1 damage
T3 - Trusty Machette - Kor Outfitter putting the machette on Duelist, attack with duelist - 7 damage
T4 - Tap Mystic for the Sword, Equip sword on the Duelist, attack with duelist your dead

RoI
T1 - Phantasmal Bear
T2 - Krovikan Mist attack with bear - 2 damage
T3 - Phantasmal Bear Krovikan Mist attack with 1st mist and bear - 8 damage
T4 - Don't even need to cast, all out attack - your dead



those are nut hands and infrequent situations. when you're discussing game theory with someone about a game with imperfect knowledge you generally assume that strategy isn't set in stone and you must adapt to your opponent. In the above cases, I would obviously not just sit there and let him steamroll me.

I would cast vicious hunger, or urge to feed or possibly throw down a chump blocker. it depends on the hand you get. the above scenarios aren't automatically "game over" for my deck list. even if you lose a little life early, there are more than enough ways to get it back.

Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali
captivating vampire[/c] 1x useless card but good burn bait.



...because a great creature with low mana cost, +1/+1 effect and a dangerous lategame ability is useless....



against thinking opponents at the highest level where the game is played (near the top of the leaderboard where i play),

cards like those and lord of illusion don't last very long. They are dispatched on the same turn or shortly after they are cast. You will never get to use the lategame ability. not even vs a 80 card deck.




...of course cards with lord effects don't last very long because they are damn effective. If your opponent doesn't immediately react, that creature will cause a lot of trouble for him. But your opponent won't be able to react everytime. Even if your creature eats a removal, it's still one less removal in the opponent's hand. Same goes for [C]Dragonspeaker Shaman[/C], do you also think you should not include him because he may die anyway? Your opponent will have removal anyway, if you run the captivating vampire or not. Seriously, you exclude high quality cards because you are afraid of removal?
Who says that you will never get to use [C]Captivating Vampire[/C]'s "lategame" ability? 5 vampires aren't impossible to get for activating the ability and maybe if you would stop casting [C]Demon's Horn[/C]s, you would be able to use it much earlier.

Keep calling yourself a top player, you won't reach anything with that besides mistrust and ridicilousness. A real good player doesn't need to boast with statistics like you do.

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

against thinking opponents at the highest level where the game is played (near the top of the leaderboard where i play),



Last time I checked, you haven't even been anywhere near the top 200, so where does the top start exactly?

Oh and stop the chess analogies, these games have nothing in common and the way you talk about chess I'd actually be surprised if you had a reasonable elo rating. Memorizing opening lines doesn't make you a good player by any means.
Good players know that good cards are simply too good to pass up. There might only be 2 in the deck, but there's a reason you will see 4 in any serious Illusion based deck.

Is it a magnet for removal? Sure. Every good card is, that's why it's run, to force an opponent to deal with it, and if they cannot, they suffer the consequences.

If you can manage to win so much without using these cards, you might be surprised how you would do with them included.

I'm tempted to agree with you because you seem pretty knowledgable about the game, but you didn't post evidence for this claim with concrete examples. What's the worst that can happen 4 turns deep?
 




You can lose the game.  Since you want examples:

WS
T1 - Kor Duelist
T2 - Stoneforge Mystic getting Sword of War and Peace Attack with Duelist - 1 damage
T3 - Trusty Machette - Kor Outfitter putting the machette on Duelist, attack with duelist - 7 damage
T4 - Tap Mystic for the Sword, Equip sword on the Duelist, attack with duelist your dead

RoI
T1 - Phantasmal Bear
T2 - Krovikan Mist attack with bear - 2 damage
T3 - Phantasmal Bear Krovikan Mist attack with 1st mist and bear - 8 damage
T4 - Don't even need to cast, all out attack - your dead



those are nut hands and infrequent situations. when you're discussing game theory with someone about a game with imperfect knowledge you generally assume that strategy isn't set in stone and you must adapt to your opponent. In the above cases, I would obviously not just sit there and let him steamroll me.



You asked, "What's the worst that can happen in 4 turns?"    I told you exactly what the "worst that can happen" was. 

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

captivating vampire[/c] 1x useless card but good burn bait.



...because a great creature with low mana cost, +1/+1 effect and a dangerous lategame ability is useless....



against thinking opponents at the highest level where the game is played (near the top of the leaderboard where i play),

cards like those and lord of illusion don't last very long. They are dispatched on the same turn or shortly after they are cast. You will never get to use the lategame ability. not even vs a 80 card deck.




...of course cards with lord effects don't last very long because they are damn effective. If your opponent doesn't immediately react, that creature will cause a lot of trouble for him. But your opponent won't be able to react everytime. Even if your creature eats a removal, it's still one less removal in the opponent's hand. Same goes for [C]Dragonspeaker Shaman[/C], do you also think you should not include him because he may die anyway? Your opponent will have removal anyway, if you run the captivating vampire or not. Seriously, you exclude high quality cards because you are afraid of removal?
Who says that you will never get to use [C]Captivating Vampire[/C]'s "lategame" ability? 5 vampires aren't impossible to get for activating the ability and maybe if you would stop casting [C]Demon's Horn[/C]s, you would be able to use it much earlier.

Keep calling yourself a top player, you won't reach anything with that besides mistrust and ridicilousness. A real good player doesn't need to boast with statistics like you do.




everything you just said is the reason why i have captivating vampire in my deck. What are we debating again? It is useless because it dies a lot. I have included some useless cards to suck up the opponents burn cards and also sacrifice for vampire aristocrat so in that sense it is useful. On the other hand, I took out a lot of vampire cards and very rarely have 5 vampires on the board...so with my particular build, captivating vamp's late game ability is useless.

The genius part is that my opponent doesn't know that it is a useless card for me and he has every reason to believe I have a lot of vampires in my deck as is common with most shallow thought-out blood hunger builds. i'm just a deep thinking player who extracts every possible advantage available in the game and harvests it with a winning strategy.

of course this is going to create jealousy on the forums which is why you see a lot of animosity towards me. i don't let it get to me though. if i help just one person dominate DLC2, then this thread was worth it.

Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali

You asked, "What's the worst that can happen in 4 turns?"    I told you exactly what the "worst that can happen" was. 



1. you assume the opponent has the first move

2. demon's horn can help decks bounce back from those situations and act as "insurance" against the freak scenarios when the opponent has a monster hand. If you can survive the first wave and get to late game its game over with butcher of malakir or even corrupt 2x.


3. My position is "not casting creatures during the first four turns is not a bad thing". Yours is "you can frequently lose the game by not casting creatures in the first four turns". I asked for evidence for your position. You provided 2 statistically improbable situations that actually aren't as threatening as you make them out to be. I did not find the evidence for your position convincing, therefore I dismissed your position as nonsense.

Extensive deck tester for duels 2012 and aspiring rules advisor "When you're as great as I am, it's hard to be humble." -Ali
I won't comment on the way the op states his "opinion" here... Foot in Mouth
but I actually had a small benefit when I rearranged my BH deck today after reading this post Innocent
and my list seems nearly perfect now (for me at least hehe)

I increased my creature count and mainly put in more of the 1+2 cmc creatures esp. quag vampires and all the tormented souls
what I had in mind is negating the effects of dangerous mind control type cards by excluding all the creatures that could win the match for my opponent when mc'd - the only powercard I still left in is Draana+skeletal vampire (because it still needs black mana to be devastating, so it won't help RoI or AD much)

so I didn't change much but the 1+2 cmc's really helped me finishing the games earlier by either doing more damage early on or just sacrificing them to finish the game with aristocrat for example
so after all his list helped not a bit but it planted an idea and that was helpful so this may be the first positive reply in this thread Wink

You asked, "What's the worst that can happen in 4 turns?"    I told you exactly what the "worst that can happen" was. 



1. you assume the opponent has the first move

2. demon's horn can help decks bounce back from those situations and act as "insurance" against the freak scenarios when the opponent has a monster hand. If you can survive the first wave and get to late game its game over with butcher of malakir or even corrupt 2x.


3. My position is "not casting creatures during the first four turns is not a bad thing". Yours is "you can frequently lose the game by not casting creatures in the first four turns". I asked for evidence for your position. You provided 2 statistically improbable situations that actually aren't as threatening as you make them out to be. I did not find the evidence for your position convincing, therefore I dismissed your position as nonsense.




posting what I want to post right now would get me banned... for life.  Have a good life sir, and thank you for the entertainment you provided while I still cared to debate with you.

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster


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hey guys, check out this new feature I just found.  It's awsome

You're a lose cannon.

 

 

"I played 70 card decks before it was cool to play 70 card decks." -Random M:tG hipster

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