Duel Lands

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I'm a little disapointed with the way that Wizards handles these.
The problem is the cyceling of them. 

When one expansion goes out of standard. Then if that Dual land that was previously there doesn't get reprinted then there is a large gap of time between playing those types of decks.

For example: G/B didn't have a dual land to represent it's color base for a while there. Now it does.

So I'm wondering why doesn't WoTC just print all dual lands in their core sets? Then that way they could open up Expansions for more "newer" lands. Instead of filling up Expansion Sets with lands they could of just filled out with new cards that have abilities. (IE: ghost Quarter, Nephelia drownyard, etc, etc.)

Then that way, we players could have more Stationary game play/deck building with more "flavor." 
When you don't have to worry about not being able to play a deck style because your dual land goes out of print. And wont be reprinted for a while.  

Core sets expand over more time then expansions do. Thuse if we had all the dual lands in the core sets when that previous Expansion leaves the format then WoTC has to work to reprint new lands into the new Expansions...it could save them alot of time, and open the game up to more diversity! 

What do you all think about this? Because I find it a bit on the annoying side!
The ONLY duel land ever printed was Arena.

Or are you referring to dual lands?

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Normal lands do not fight, they are generally very peaceful creatures.
Way to overreact. We didn't criticize you one bit.
Lands have feelings too, and a lot of lands are creatures too.
I care about post count.
Vektor's, to be more specific.

Anyway, printing all dual lands (All? There's a ton) would mean that core set would be really unappealing for any other types of play, such as limited. At that point, it's not a core set, just a bunch of dual lands.

Unless you want them to print all dual lands they have intended for a rotation in the core set instead, which would only mean at max 20 or so. Although that is still a lot.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Having a ton of dual lands in the core set would hurt Sealed for the core sets quite a bit.  You're almost out of the running for a win if you open a pool with dual lands as it is.  You can almost never use them in your deck and have thus been deprieved of a bomb you probably could have used.  Having more of them just makes it more often that you get screwed.

The other side of that is you wouldn't want them to reprint the same dual lands in every core set.  In addition, having the same type of ETB effect (enters untapped or enters tapped) would either be overpowered or underpowered.  So they'll have to alternate types of dual lands.  So what happens when the core set rolls out?  You get stuck with crappy duals for a full year.  Standard will start rotating between mono-colored decks winning and dual colored decks winning, which isn't good for balance.

I think a better alternative is to have each block rotate between offering enemy and allied dual lands of the same type (untapped or tapped), and then have special "colorless" lands.  The core sets can then have special "colored" lands which link the blocks or fill a whole in the balance of the game.  The core sets could also be used to flip the lands between the styles as necessary.  As an example, Innistrad has enemy, untapped lands.  The next block would have allied, untapped lands.  Magic 2013 could then have either special lands (one for each pair) or have allied, tapped lands and some special "colorless" lands.  This way there will always be a dual land for each color pairing that is completely balanced.
Having a ton of dual lands in the core set would hurt Sealed for the core sets quite a bit.  You're almost out of the running for a win if you open a pool with dual lands as it is.  You can almost never use them in your deck and have thus been deprieved of a bomb you probably could have used.  Having more of them just makes it more often that you get screwed.



While rares are nice bombs to have, they do not have the importance you seem to give them. Granted, most of my Limited experience is in draft, not sealed. But I have won several drafts with decks that had no rares in them. As for Sealed, I vividly recall getting an Abyssal Persecutor at the Worldwake pre-release and not being able to run it despite my deck being heavily black. The secondary market value of a decent dual land (and how useful they are in constructed even if lacking a hefty price tag) largely compensates one for getting stuck with one in a limited Pool.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Draft is really different.  You can get a coherent deck through the draft because you're picking cards.  A Sealed pool is different as you only get what was in the packs.  You don't get to cherry pick what you want.  While rares aren't necessarily what determines if you win in Limited, it certainly goes a long way.  Certain rares/mythics are basically worth 3-4 match wins on their own (I'm looking at you Olivia Voldaren and Bloodline Keeper).  I'm not saying if you didn't get a dual land, you'd get one of those cards, but the dual land has lowered your chances of getting one.

As for the secondary market value of lands, I don't think a $4-10 card doesn't make up for the lost opportunity to win some big prizes.  In Draft, that might be the case as you can still make a good deck without great rares, but that's generally not true in a sealed pool.
For example: G/B didn't have a dual land to represent it's color base for a while there. Now it does.

So I'm wondering why doesn't WoTC just print all dual lands in their core sets?

Actually, from this, your concern seems more reasonable than some of the replies have assumed.

Instead of always printing dual lands only in Core Sets, all that's really needed would be for core sets to include both allied-color duals and enemy duals. They used to do so; Ninth Edition and Tenth Edition come to mind.

There are, though, two reasons why they don't.

Some sets don't emphasize enemy-color play; it's intended to have such decks at a disadvantage to create the type of Standard environment intended, so that the next Standard will rotate well (that is, the block after will be useful and popular).

And because of the fact that there are 53 rares and 15 mythics in a Core Set instead of 121 rares, there is only half as much room available for rare cards as there had been before.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

I care about post count.
Vektor's, to be more specific.

Anyway, printing all dual lands (All? There's a ton) would mean that core set would be really unappealing for any other types of play, such as limited. At that point, it's not a core set, just a bunch of dual lands.

Unless you want them to print all dual lands they have intended for a rotation in the core set instead, which would only mean at max 20 or so. Although that is still a lot.



You're getting a little carried away there...I don't mean every single dual land ever printed. I mean Every color choice you could come up with. IE: w/b, b/g, b/u, u/r, g/w, g/r...etc etc etc. For the Record I am refering to "this land comes into play taped unless you control X land type" type of duals. (what we currently have)

Well that goes into the other problem being that duals are considered rares instead of uncommons, which ultimately they should be uncommon. It made sense 15 years ago to print them as Rares. It doesn't make sense to do that any more. We're talking about Making the Metagame better rather then staggent.

Right now instead of players controling what influences deck builds, WoTC does by adding, or not adding, rotating in/out different lands. 

Well in theory this could only be applied to core set Magic: 13/14/15 etc etc, which won't come into existence for another year (or more) from now. So if they rotate out g/b, then that means we can no long make and play g/b decks and still be as competative as someone playing B/U, or W/U. Two colors that never see their lands go out of block.

Yeah but who really plays Sealed/draft to be competative? You play it to have fun. The real Magic lays with playing premade vs premade. There is a reason there is a protour! Corse sets are really only there to support the Expansions. That's the way it's always been! And making it so it has all colors in it makes it support them that much better!
Sorry, but since when does playing for fun mean "not playing to win"?  Even if Limited events were only recreational, which the vast majority of them aren't, Wizards would still need to design the cards with that in mind.  Look at Commander.  Since it is surging in popularity, Wizards has started to make cards designed for that game.  They have to take into account the many ways people play the game.

I also take offense to "real Magic lays with playing premade vs. premade" in reference to Standard.  No, that's not real Magic.  That's playing "throw your bank statement on the table and seeing who's is bigger".  Limited and Legacy are where the real players are playing.  Limited eliminates the "who's got more disposable income" factor from the game.  Legacy is more technical.  Standard might be the format of choice for Wizards, but it's not the end-all-be-all of the game.

Another thing that you're assuming (incorrectly) is that all the colors are already balanced in Standard.  They are not even close.  Certain colors have always had a stronger hold on the environment (mostly blue).  The dual lands offer a way to balance that without directly making over-powered cards for one color or another.
And, by the way, before Woodland Cemetery, there was Verdant Catacombs. There was Twilight Mire before. Before that Overgrown Tomb. Before that one Llanowar Wastes.

Also, having very consistent mana bases in every environment doesn't make the game better. There needs to be just enough so that you can reliably run two colors playing Constructed. Nothing more. Then it all depends on the environment.

But, yes, there's a money issue. Happily, Core Set duals will probably stay the same for a while.
I like the idea of having all ten combinations available in a core set. If comparitive power levels between friendly and enemy colours is an issue, they can always print them in two separate cycles. Say, shocklands for friendly colours and painlands for enemy colours or whatever.
I think a better alternative is to have each block rotate between offering enemy and allied dual lands of the same type (untapped or tapped), and then have special "colorless" lands.



That's almost the way it is now.

But I wouldn't want every block to have 10 duals. It wouldn't take long to use every variation anyway.

I like the idea of having all ten combinations available in a core set. If comparitive power levels between friendly and enemy colours is an issue, they can always print them in two separate cycles. Say, shocklands for friendly colours and painlands for enemy colours or whatever.



They don't print painlands anymore. And it would suck to have 10 rares of every core set being lands. It would also create too many environments with good stuff decks, and mono color would pretty much stop existing.
Also, the power level will not always vary only between one allied color and one enemy color pair. 
Yeah but who really plays Sealed/draft to be competative? You play it to have fun.



I always play to have fun. You can have fun and be competitive at the same time. And draft is generally considered the most skill intensive play format there is. A lot of large tournaments take the top 8 players (determined by constructed performance in the tournament) and makes them booster draft to determine the winner.

So, who plays draft to be competitive? Only a large number of national champions, that's who.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

I think a better alternative is to have each block rotate between offering enemy and allied dual lands of the same type (untapped or tapped), and then have special "colorless" lands.



That's almost the way it is now.



You mean the way that should theorectically produce the most balance and keep the distribution of rares intact is already the way it's being done?  Why, that would almost make it seem as if Wizards has actually thought about this and planned it out...
why don't they just make all other lands replace the basic land slot in a pack?  that way they would never take up a spot for potentially awesome 'real' cards in limited formats.

sure, you might be a little disappointed if you open a sealed pool with 6 basic lands, but non-basic lands tend to be pretty uneventful in limited formats anyway.  if you're really lucky you might get one dual land that matches your colors and even then it's just one card in your deck.
Quadibloc said what I was going to, about ninth and tenth having them.  Those core sets were also huge!  Tenth had 383 cards (or at least that's what the foil viashino I just looked at told me).  Anyway, Magic has 'allied' pairs and 'rivaled' pairs, which many call friend and enemy pairs.  White works well with green and blue, and that's why you can find a ton of :gwm: and lands, but only a very few :wbm: and :rwm: lands.

I heard a story a while ago from my buddy Cathaldus about how in early Magic they stopped printing rival duels because there was then no reason to use allied colours.  You could get most of what one colour does, by playing its ally, so playing rivals got you four colours of play.  So, weather it's because of flavor, or balancing tourny play, they don't like printing the rivals, unless it's a mutli-colour themed set.
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Honestly most of us have reached saturation on duals long ago, even just slow collectors should have a pile of them by now. For standard you really only need the enemy colored duals when that color choice is supported in the standard enviroment. The new duals that cipt only if you have no base land type or less then 3 land are almost as good as the fetches, shocks, and real old duals.

That leaves a legacy or vintage deck the ability to play 20 good duals for a 2 color deck and you probably want a playset of base land for those cards that disadvantage themselves by allowing for basic land searches. We have plenty of duals at this point. They never need to print a new one that lacks basic land types, they should just reprint at this point.

One of the consequences of a changing base set is they can no longer support all 10 duals. Since modern is withering on the vine, legacy duals will stay relevant for years to come. What they should realy do is just reprint them(and the next base set should reprint the ravinica block duals if they expect anyone to continue with modern).

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The ONLY duel land ever printed was Arena.


contested cliffs
192884403 wrote:
firstrike
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
56965458 wrote:
97820278 wrote:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
This definitely doesn't mean what you think it means.
I was referring to the painting The Treachery of Images.
I know.
Sorry but playing Draft/sealed deck is a format that has always been considered a fun format. But not a overly serious one. Getting player points (now plainswalkers points) doesn't account for the same concept that those two categories hold.

Playing a standard/premade deck has always been the 1 all, end all for magic, it's the staple the game was/ and still is built on. While not discounting the addission of commander, it is a relatively new format, which is still trying to catch hold on the player base. Just like Modern, archenemy, and many other formats (horde).

I always want to win, does that mean I don't want to also play to have fun? I don't go into a Magic match hoping to lose!

Also I hate Limited, everyone of them decks are build for 3rd turn kills...there is ZERO fun in that! 

I'd rather play a format that allows for competetion between players then the one that says, hey I got lots of money to drop on cards...Limited is just as or more expensive then Standard is. Because everyone knows these cards will be around and in that format alot longer then the ones in Standard will be.

How about if WoTC made Duals into uncommons. Would that a leviate some of your concerns?
I think constructing manabases is an interesting part of the game and if every core set had the same 10 duals every year it would probably get repetitive.

Also, good dual lands drive sales for expansions. 
I think constructing manabases is an interesting part of the game and if every core set had the same 10 duals every year it would probably get repetitive


And?



  • Find ten duals.

  • Print them like goddamn Birds of Paradise.

  • Awesome!


Sorry but playing Draft/sealed deck is a format that has always been considered a fun format. But not a overly serious one. Getting player points (now plainswalkers points) doesn't account for the same concept that those two categories hold.

Playing a standard/premade deck has always been the 1 all, end all for magic, it's the staple the game was/ and still is built on. While not discounting the addission of commander, it is a relatively new format, which is still trying to catch hold on the player base. Just like Modern, archenemy, and many other formats (horde).

I always want to win, does that mean I don't want to also play to have fun? I don't go into a Magic match hoping to lose!

Also I hate Limited, everyone of them decks are build for 3rd turn kills...there is ZERO fun in that! 

I'd rather play a format that allows for competetion between players then the one that says, hey I got lots of money to drop on cards...Limited is just as or more expensive then Standard is. Because everyone knows these cards will be around and in that format alot longer then the ones in Standard will be.

How about if WoTC made Duals into uncommons. Would that a leviate some of your concerns?



You keep saying Limited when you mean Legacy. Limited is draft/sealed.
You keep saying Limited when you mean Legacy. Limited is draft/sealed.



Honestly, I never knew that lol.
My bad. I always thought ppl meant legacy when they said limited.... 

Doesnt' change my stand point on the issue tho!  
You keep saying Limited when you mean Legacy. Limited is draft/sealed.



Honestly, I never knew that lol.
My bad. I always thought ppl meant legacy when they said limited.... 

Doesnt' change my stand point on the issue tho!  



Top 8 of most tournaments is draft. If it's just for fun and not overly competitive, I wonder how it could be.

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
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to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

There are uncommon dual lands. Usually, they're not particularly amazing though. They're often slow, because they'll always come into play tapped or have some other mitigating drawback. Some are decent though, such as the vivid lands and the tricolor cycle from Alara block. They're pretty cheap and make for a good alternative to more expensive dual lands.

Honestly, we've seen more color fixing, in terms of available options, in recent years than prior standards. Odyssey-Onslaught block only had original fetchlands and the tainted cycle, while Mirrodin-Kamigawa had cipt lands iirc (Kamigawa had some terrible uncommon dual lands not worth mentioning).

WotC has been pushing for more enemy color mana fixing too. They've said that they want at least one set of enemy color dual lands in standard at a time, so we probably won't see anymore until Innistrad rotates out. I won't be surprised, though, if they decide to reprint the INN enemy colored lands in M13.

 
There are uncommon dual lands. Usually, they're not particularly amazing though. They're often slow, because they'll always come into play tapped or have some other mitigating drawback. Some are decent though, such as the vivid lands and the tricolor cycle from Alara block. They're pretty cheap and make for a good alternative to more expensive dual lands.

// Content removed, because it's not part of Venn's post //
(Kamigawa had some terrible uncommon dual lands not worth mentioning) 

You mean the ones that are functionally the same/possibly slightly better than the Tempest block counterparts?

Believe it or not, my favorite non-rare duals are the Ravnica Bouncelands.  They are common and help you ramp.
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Yes, those lands. I believe they're functionally the same as the Tempest ones.
Woah, quick response!

I think they are, I just don't remember off the top of my head.  I remember them being so similar that I didn't notice a difference other than art and name.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a flavor junkie, but functional reprints of stuff like that for the sake of flavor, or odd namings (like that) for the sake of flavor kinda' bug me.
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You're getting a little carried away there...I don't mean every single dual land ever printed. I mean Every color choice you could come up with. IE: w/b, b/g, b/u, u/r, g/w, g/r...etc etc etc. For the Record I am refering to "this land comes into play taped unless you control X land type" type of duals. (what we currently have).

As part of the color pie, wizards identifies certain colors as enemies and certain colors as allies, and wizards has chosen to represent this by printing fewer enemy dual lands and printing them less often.  This reenforces the idea that putting together allied colors is easier.  Printing all 10 pairings in every core set would make the ally/enemy differentiation less mechanically significant, and that is not part if the vision Wizards has for this game.

As to why change them: It is done to drive sales.  If you collect all your pairings and then never have to change them then you will be less likely to buy as many packs.  Dual lands are popular and do a lot to drive booster sales.

Limited would be really messed up with 10 dual lands in the core set.  Limited is a HUGE part of the game, and there are many people that only play limited.  I would go out on a limb and say that Limited players are one of the largest financial contributors to the game on a regular basis, so expect wizards to keep designing sets with limited in mind.  9th and 10th were supposed to be unique for having all 10, it does not represent a precedent.

The ONLY duel land ever printed was Arena.


contested cliffs



Forgot that one, good catch.

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.


Sorry but playing Draft/sealed deck is a format that has always been considered a fun format. But not a overly serious one.



Soo... The format used to determine the winners at national level events isn't an overly serious format?

Sure, why not?

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.


Anyway, printing all dual lands (All? There's a ton) would mean that core set would be really unappealing for any other types of play, such as limited. At that point, it's not a core set, just a bunch of dual lands.



Hm... I missed the last core set's release, but as far as I have seen, very few people even show a glimmer of interest in playing limited games where you can only use core set cards. I'm one of the few people who wouldn't mind drafting M12 occasionally, but I still see very few other people (less than 7 others) interested in core-limited (and sadly our minimum for draft is 8).
Normal lands do not fight, they are generally very peaceful creatures.



Yo quiero Kormus Bell.

Anyway, I'm waiting for a wedge tri-land. We've had, like, one. That's not one cycle; that's one land. Meanwhile, we've had on the arc lands:

some crap that is strictly worse than what's now available
tap for one, crack for two
a karoo without the landfall abuse
a plain old tapland, and at least now they admit taplands are better for three than just two
a fetchland, which technically doesn't break commander rules, but the first person to put it in a mono-color deck just for deck-thinning will get taunted repeatedly

Another problem with printing all dual lands is how many there are:

The Gatherer lists 437 nonbasic lands. Not all of them are duals; besides the original ones, which put all the others to shame, those began in Ice Age. They're all in cycles, which helps me out since I can search for and but not , , or .

Allied-color dual cycles: 19
Enemy-color dual cycles: 8

This doesn't include the tribal cycle from the Lorwyn block.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Yo quiero Kormus Bell.



My forests fight life and limb for me all the time.  They like me, I prefer that my land be eternal.
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Three reasons -
1) Ruins limited in the set that has all the duallands.
2) Most Constructed formats (Block excepted) need more than one set of duallands to make a colour pairing viable.
3) You don't want to have every colour paring given the same level of mana fixing because it reduces the visibility of enemy-ally colour dichotomies, an important part of the pie. 
I don't know if baited is the right word.  They weren't kind, ture.  They were a little over harsh, also true, but its easy enough to fix and if we all keep a level head, we move past it pretty quickly (which happened days ago).  I'm proud of you for being a defender, the world needs more defenders, but you are currently the one taking this thread off topic (which it has been on for the past threeish days).  They made amends. 
I request to you that you read the rest of the thread and come back.  You probably have some good input on the thread's topic.
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Three reasons -
1) Ruins limited in the set that has all the duallands.


This could easily be solved by simply better design. Making dual lands uncommon would create awesome limited play (I splashed this Liliana Vess off just one land and got there!) while making a good mana base (and by extension, multicolor in general) easier for casual players and limited. Alternatively, making less "bomby" design (unlike what we've seen in recent years) goes a long way towards making one "dead" rare pick a death knell for your limited event. If my range of possibility is between this crap and a dual land my chances of winning drop drastically by opening the dual. But if Titan-power creatures didn't exist, and commons and uncommons were bumped up to at least fringe-playable status, the power curve would be far more evened out. Creatures like Ember Hauler, Flametongue Kavu, Mulldrifter, Obstinate Baloth, AEther Adept are the kinds of things Limited should emphasize: quality cards that have the potential to generate advantage but really shine in the hands of a good player.

Really the only reason duals are historically rare is because of the original duals, and for some reason strictly worse versions of cards that shouldn't have been rare in the first place stay at the same rarity. It's a money thing and you're fooling yourself to think otherwise.

2) Most Constructed formats (Block excepted) need more than one set of duallands to make a colour pairing viable.


But that doesn't mean that the core set duals have to be the only ones at all. The original poster was simply suggesting that all color pairs be represented within the core set. We can have things like M11/Scars, which followed up a reprint of "core" duals with a set of duals in the same color pairs but more obviously specialized and limited in applications. The core set should offer all the color pairs at the same level and allow the block sets to flesh out mechanical flavor with their own specialty lands. Filters, Karoos,, and the fastlands are examples of this. All those types of lands support different styles of play and engender different archetypes. The mechanical philosophy of dual lands is just one more tool the designers would have to play with, instead of "well we basically had to throw enemy duals in Innistrad because the fetches were rotating out of Standard." Mechanic-neutral cycles like the M10 lands and the Painlands are perfect for core sets.

3) You don't want to have every colour paring given the same level of mana fixing because it reduces the visibility of enemy-ally colour dichotomies, an important part of the pie. 


That's really just a choice of design, and one we can all admit was a poor one. Sets with enemy colors as a theme, even the smallest of the smallest insignificant ones, are some of the best sellers in history. Zendikar had the fetches, Innistrad has the new enemy duals and off-color flashback, Shadowmoor and Eventide had filters and an emphasis on hybrid, Ravnica represented all colors equally, etc. That shows that customers enjoy the enemy pairings just as much as the baseline allied pairings. Also, if dual lands became less of a money factor for Wizards and become the mechanical baseline like they should be, the "importance" of allied v. enemy dichotomy can still be represented just through good design. Cards like Bloodhall Ooze beat you over the head with it, but more subtly they can reinforce player conceptions about allied color with mechanical themes. If blue has an strong theme of evasion in a particular set, a white mechanic like Reinforce from Lorwyn strengthens Blue-White as a combination and solidifies that color pair. Similarly, they can discourage enemy pairs with differing mechanics in enemy colors. If Blue has a mechanical theme that encourages keeping cards in hand (the knowledge mechanic from Kamigawa or something), that's in line with a Blue playstyle and philosophy. If you then give Red/Green a mechanic like Bloodthirst or Hellbent that encourages the playing of your cards as soon as you can, you create a natural dichotomy that subtly discourages enemy colors and reinforces allied color.

A philosophy like this also helps to avoid the cries that come with every set of "they're breaking the color pie!" which is historically a bone of contention among players. When you have mechanical divides between colors that go along with their "traditional" playstyle, the new mechanic helps keep things interesting while staying true to what the color "should do." Blue doesn't need creatures like Phantasmal Bear or Stitched Drake to do what it does best. They're out of color, dangerous to color balance in constructed formats (as we've seen with Delver of Secrets in every format) and quite frankly just do not make sense with the playstyle of blue. If blue wants to play mono-color it needs competitive creatures, I get that. But clones and cards like AEther Adept are fine examples of that that fit within the color philosophy of blue. But those who like aggro-control styles of play should be required to play multicolor or just settle for less control or less aggro. It makes the game more varied and interesting and requires people to utilize their manabase as a resource in the metagame.

Overall, I think the responses in this thread see color and multicolor as just "the way it is" without critically reflecting on that which is because of circumstance and that which is because it cannot be otherwise. And we can imagine a world in which dual lands were more accessible and varied and design altered to reflect consistent values within multicolor design, so it certainly "could" be otherwise. So in response to the OP, literally the only reason why dual lands are rare, scarce, and not expansive is because of money. End of story. 
So it all comes down to design of the card...  
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