Bonus to Speed?

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Hey gang.  I was messing around with the Pixie in the Character Builder and added a feat (Fleet Footed +1 Speed) and a magic item (Boots of Sand and Sea +1 Speed).

The builder ajdusted my speed (from four to six) but did nothing with my Flying speed (still at its base of six).

Do those bonuses to speed apply to Fliying as well?

Cheers! 
The Pixie should benefit from those two game elements. The Character Builder is not a Rule Source and in not always correctly adjucating items.

RC 202 Determining Speed: A character's speed is determined by the character's race and any bonuses or penalties.
No, because "Speed" refers to walking speed. Other types of "Speed" are not "Speed." Which is confusing and slightly unfortunate.
The key element here is that in the glossory of the rule books, Speed is defined as the number of squares you can move in a walk action, as Alcestis pointed out.  Other modes of movement have their speed referred to by that mode of movement, such as "swim speed", "fly speed", etc.

 If the feat and item said "add a +1 bonus to speed for all forms of movement", then it would increase your fly speed.  There are very few items, feats and powers that increase fly speed seeing as Pixie is the first race to have one, although there are some rare ones, like Spear of the Skylord
yes but the walk or run action can be used on anything with which you have a speed, you can teleport run or walk. just as you can run or walk when flying, as odd as that might sound.

is there a rule that makes your ground speed your default speed?
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
No, because "Speed" refers to walking speed. Other types of "Speed" are not "Speed." Which is confusing and slightly unfortunate.



My take differs RAW.

Walking Speed, Fly Speed, Swim Speed, Climb Speed, Burrow Speed, Jump Speed, Teleport Speed etc...are all Base Movement Mode or Alternate Movement Mode using a Speed. 

A Speed is the distance (in squares) that a creature can move using the Walk action with any these Movement Modes, wether they are Based Movement Mode or Alternate Movement Modes.

So a Bonus/Penalty to Speed will affect all your Movement Mode using a Speed. 

It has been subject of debate few months ago: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


RC 67 Speed:
 A creature’s Speed represent the number of 5 foot squares it can move when taking a Move action to walk. Some creatures have speeds for movement modes other than walking,: burrowing, climbing, flying and swimming. See Chapter 6 for rules on using a creature’s speed. An adventurer’s speed is initially determined by his or her race. It might be modified by a class feature, a feat or something else. Wearring heavy armor reduces an adventurer’s speed, by an ammount specified in the description of that armor. A monster’s speed is specified in its stat block and accoutns for the monster’s armor, if nay armor is mentioned.
 


And people who disagree are just as wrong as they were seven months ago. :-p
Ok, reading the rules gave me a headache- it seems like that, by RAW, a penalty to speed applies to all movement modes, but a bonus to speed only increases ground speed, unless it specifies "+1 to flying speed"?
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Ok, reading the rules gave me a headache- it seems like that, by RAW, a penalty to speed applies to all movement modes, but a bonus to speed only increases ground speed, unless it specifies "+1 to flying speed"?



why would you say that? as counte-intitive as it is a creature can take a move action to walk useing his fly speed, as easily as he can his ground speed

walk does NOT mean along the ground, it just means you are using a move action to move up to your speed in that mode.
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
Ok, reading the rules gave me a headache- it seems like that, by RAW, a penalty to speed applies to all movement modes, but a bonus to speed only increases ground speed, unless it specifies "+1 to flying speed"?

Actually a penalty to speed only applies to your "walking speed". Slowed only applies because it specifically says it applies to all movement modes.

The other things aren't really speeds. They are movement modes, which is the confusing part because they have "speed" in the name but, RAW, are not "speeds" by the defintion of "speed."
So... a putuative heavily armoured Pixie (who could avoid being encumbered by it) would still have fly 6?  But ground 3?

Damn, that's a pretty dumb rule.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
So... a putuative heavily armoured Pixie (who could avoid being encumbered by it) would still have fly 6?  But ground 3?

Damn, that's a pretty dumb rule.




the problem is that they overused the word walk in the RC, it implies that increases to your speed only effect your ground speed, but the way its worded it could just as easily mean every movement mode.

it says a speed is how many squares you can walk in a move action, however "walk" can either mean A) you move on the ground or B) the walk move action, in any movement mode you have
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )

The definition for Speed: The distance (in squares) that a creature can move using the walk action. (RC 316)


I guess the contention is: ‘Should we interpret the word ‘walk’ literally?


The move actions listed under the Actions in Combat Table (PH 289) are: Crawl, Escape, Run, Stand Up, Shift, Squeeze and Walk.


Does that mean other forms of movement such as fly are not permitted during combat?


If we look at the definition for Walk: Move up to your speed; it is therefore not unreasonable to assume that walk should include other forms of movement, otherwise it would have been worded as covering distance with your feet on the ground.


Let’s look a little beyond.  A condition, Slowed (RC 315):


When a creature is slowed, its speed becomes 2 if it was higher than that. This speed applies to all of the creature’s movement modes (walking, flying, and so on), but it does not apply to forced movement against it, teleportation, or any other movement that doesn’t use the creature’s speed. The creature also cannot benefit from bonuses to speed, although it can take actions, such as the run action, that allow it to move farther than its speed.


I’d like to draw your attention to the part on “any other movement that doesn’t use the creature’s speed”. By inference, it’s acknowledging that a creature may use various forms of movement during combat and by that extension, speed should not be narrowly interpreted as the rate of movement on feet.


Therefore I’m inclined to think that when an item adds 1 to your speed, you should be able to move an additional square regardless what form of movement you use.

it says a speed is how many squares you can walk in a move action, however "walk" can either mean A) you move on the ground or B) the walk move action, in any movement mode you have

Which is another issue. That isn't "Walking" it is "Flying" or "Swimming" or "Burrowing." You are taking a Move Action to take the "Walk" action, but you are not "Walking" because you are replacing "Walking" with the other movement mode. RC 203.

And speed refers to not just using the "Walk" action, but how far you move while "Walking." Which is why it is alternately refered to as "Speed" and "Walking Speed" at various places throughout the rules.

It would have helped enormously if they didn't re-use the same half a dozen slightly modified words, but they did. Just like with "Attack." And it creates no end of confusion about what should be obvious questions.

@thespaceinvader: Yes.
I have to agree that the term 'walk' in the speed defintion is overloaded in the RAW, leading to ambiguity. In such a case I feel it is best for DMs to try and determine RAI. That said, a heavily armored pixie not taking a speed penalty is silly and unlikely intentional, so by that I would rule that the context in this case must mean the walk action, not the walk movement mode.

As an aside: good grief. Does WOTC not own a thesarus? Why do they insist on overloading game terms and definitions? Seriously.
Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that finds the situation a tad... ambiguous? Wink
Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that finds the situation a tad... ambiguous? Wink



I just read it in another thread, definition for Move: Any instance of movement, whether it is done willingly or unwillingly. Whenever a creature, an object, or an effect leaves a square to enter another, it is moving. Shifting, teleporting, and being pushed are all examples of moves. (RC 314)

Reading it in conjuction with

Walk: Move a number of squares up to your speed. (PH 289)
Speed: The distance (in squares) that a creature can move using the walk action. (RC 316)

It's pretty clear cut that +1 speed = +1 move (regardless what form of movement you make)  
    
Except you're not walking when you use a special movement mode, you are taking the walk action. And no, those are not the same thing according to the actual rules. And yes, that is confusing. Not ambiguous, just confusing.
I'm still with Plaguescarred on this, I think there is sufficient justification by RAW for bonuses and penalties to speed to apply to all movement modes as well as powers that say "you move your speed" to be available for use in other movement modes.

I am aware that Alcestis will continue to say I'm wrong, but the position that speed is only walking speed will never pass the smell test.  There is no way that a Pixie is immune to slow unless it's walking. 

I feel it necessary to emphasize how pathetically stupid Alcestis's ruling makes the game.  It's easily on the order of "lulz we broke the scout by making Dual Weapon Attack and Power Strike free actions."  It really will be detrimental overall, and lead to a lot of confusion and silly edge cases that don't arise if you go with what is still well-supported yet doesn't break half the powers in the game.  I do hope you care about what the rules do to your game, despite the fact that Alcestis doesn't, and I'm not shy on saying so.  Strict constructionism has its place, but I have a hard time seeing even an LFR DM accepting Alcestis's ruling.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Except you're not walking when you use a special movement mode, you are taking the walk action.



Correct.

Using your Speed doesn't mean your walking but rather that you are using the Walk Action. What Movement Mode you're using with the Walk Action determine how you carry yourself.

But where in the Rules does it say that Spped only means walking and no other Movement Mode applications ?


Walking Speed, Fly Speed, Swim Speed, Climb Speed, Burrow Speed, Jump Speed, Teleport Speed etc...are all Base Movement Mode or Alternate Movement Mode using a Speed.



But on another front, the paragon path Arcane Wayfarer gains

Wayfarer's Step (16th level): You gain teleport 2 as an additional movement mode.

Should you have a feat or an item that increases you speed, does that add to the distance that you teleport?

If you also have an item that increases your teleportation, would that be in addition to your increased speed?  
   
Except you're not walking when you use a special movement mode, you are taking the walk action.



Correct.

Using your Speed doesn't mean your walking but rather that you are using the Walk Action. What Movement Mode you're using with the Walk Action determine how you carry yourself.

But where in the Rules does it say that Spped only means walking and no other Movement Mode applications ?




We went over this last time, Plague.  It's a hole in their argument, but one they claim doesn't matter.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'm still with Plaguescarred on this, I think there is sufficient justification by RAW for bonuses and penalties to speed to apply to all movement modes as well as powers that say "you move your speed" to be available for use in other movement modes.

I am aware that Alcestis will continue to say I'm wrong, but the position that speed is only walking speed will never pass the smell test.  There is no way that a Pixie is immune to slow unless it's walking. 

I feel it necessary to emphasize how pathetically stupid Alcestis's ruling makes the game.  It's easily on the order of "lulz we broke the scout by making Dual Weapon Attack and Power Strike free actions."  It really will be detrimental overall, and lead to a lot of confusion and silly edge cases that don't arise if you go with what is still well-supported yet doesn't break half the powers in the game.  I do hope you care about what the rules do to your game, despite the fact that Alcestis doesn't, and I'm not shy on saying so.  Strict constructionism has its place, but I have a hard time seeing even an LFR DM accepting Alcestis's ruling.

By "my rule" you of course mean "the actual rules." As always.

Also slow specifically also lowers special movement modes. So /eyeroll at drama. It doesn't break anything. In a lot of cases it results in under-powering things. I'm sure if you built around it you could find something clever that was fairly powerful... but when is that ever not the case? Speaking from a metric ton of LFR experience it isn't at all detrimental, leads to very little confusion once people start thinking of it as "special movement modes" rather then "a speed" and doesn't break anythign so far. At all.

@Plague: When speed is specifically called out at as "Walking speed." RC 203. There is a reason every other type of movement is called "Special Movement Mode." Having speed in the individual names is confusing, but again, not ambiguous.

@Laif: Most teleport enhancers have persnitckety wording. Like they increase the distance a power teleports. Not a power. Some would work, some wouldn't. But no, things that increase your speed would not increase the teleport, because "Teleport Speed" is not "A Speed."
RC 203 is definitive. Flying etc can use a walk or run (or shift, charge etc) action to fly if they have a fly speed.

Since you can use those actions with their modifiers to different movement modes it strongly implies that modifiers to speed impact the other movement modes. Especially since they have the explicit wording "take a walk action to fly instead of walk,"
Yes.  And the definition of Speed says "walk."  Alcestis takes this to mean literal, boots-on-ground walking, and only that.  I, Plaguescarred, and several others take this to mean the walk action.

The problem here is that Alcestis refuses to consider any possibility that results in an opposing ruling being correct, under any circumstances.  That's not constructive debate or discussion.  In fact, it does very little than simply shut down debate or discussion, so that nobody comes out with a better understanding of the situation.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes.  And the definition of Speed says "walk."  Alcestis takes this to mean literal, boots-on-ground walking, and only that.  I, Plaguescarred, and several others take this to mean the walk action.

The problem here is that Alcestis refuses to consider any possibility that results in an opposing ruling being correct, under any circumstances.  That's not constructive debate or discussion.  In fact, it does very little than simply shut down debate or discussion, so that nobody comes out with a better understanding of the situation.



Well, if you can fly with a walk action if you have a fly speed it appears obvious that speed enhancements and penalties apply.

The bigger picture that cuts thru multiple threads is that different people have different standards of proof for what a, by necessity--incomplete and not entirely consistent, ruleset says. Which is why, ultimately, if it sounds good enough for a table it's good enough for a table. 
Yes.  And the definition of Speed says "walk."  Alcestis takes this to mean literal, boots-on-ground walking, and only that.  I, Plaguescarred, and several others take this to mean the walk action.

The problem here is that Alcestis refuses to consider any possibility that results in an opposing ruling being correct, under any circumstances.  That's not constructive debate or discussion.  In fact, it does very little than simply shut down debate or discussion, so that nobody comes out with a better understanding of the situation.

In the one section where it makes an actual difference, the one discussing special movement modes, speed is specifically called "Walking Speed" to differentitate it from the other types of movement that, though they use the Walk action, are not speed. No other answer is correct so it isn't exactly unreasonable for me to say it isn't correct. When you're given the right answer you already have an understanding of the situation. The correct one, even. So "trying to understand it better" in such a way that you arrive at the wrong answer is absurd and counter-productive.

There is no constructive debate to be had because the answer is right there in the rules for anyone who cares about the actual rules. For people who don't care about the actual rules then the right answer doesn't matter at all and no rational debate about the rules can be had. So yes, this "discussion" is pointless and I feel justified in pointing out the obvious in saying it. The same way I feel justified in pointing out the obvious about the rules.
Yes.  And the definition of Speed says "walk."  Alcestis takes this to mean literal, boots-on-ground walking, and only that.  I, Plaguescarred, and several others take this to mean the walk action.

The problem here is that Alcestis refuses to consider any possibility that results in an opposing ruling being correct, under any circumstances.  That's not constructive debate or discussion.  In fact, it does very little than simply shut down debate or discussion, so that nobody comes out with a better understanding of the situation.

In the one section where it makes an actual difference, the one discussing special movement modes, speed is specifically called "Walking Speed" to differentitate it from the other types of movement that, though they use the Walk action, are not speed. No other answer is correct so it isn't exactly unreasonable for me to say it isn't correct. When you're given the right answer you already have an understanding of the situation. The correct one, even. So "trying to understand it better" in such a way that you arrive at the wrong answer is absurd and counter-productive.

There is no constructive debate to be had because the answer is right there in the rules for anyone who cares about the actual rules. For people who don't care about the actual rules then the right answer doesn't matter at all and no rational debate about the rules can be had. So yes, this "discussion" is pointless and I feel justified in pointing out the obvious in saying it. The same way I feel justified in pointing out the obvious about the rules.



So encumberance shouldn't apply to a walk action used to swim, spiderclimb, or fly? 
Being encumbered maked you Slowed. Slowed, again, specifically applies to all movement modes for precisely this reason.
Being encumbered maked you Slowed. Slowed, again, specifically applies to all movement modes for precisely this reason.



True enough.

It just rubs me the wrong way to think that plate armor while swimming, flying, climbing or burrowing is no penalty according to your reading of the rules. I would have to go with the consensus and treat the speed modifiers as applying to the all the move type actions that can be used as a walk, run, or charge action.
Thankfully the rules don't care about consensus.

Also it is the opposite of a consensus, since if you look at the previous thread and this one more people agree with the actual rules.

Saying it rubs you the wrong way is an indication you're thinking about this the wrong way. The fact that being near lava doesn't hurt you "rubs" some people the wrong way because "it isn't realistic." Well, no, but realism =! rules. Common sense =! rules. Any reflection of the way the real world might actually work is coincidence at best, really. The rules are a self-contained set that describe how the game works. If it were going to be 100% realistic it wouldn't be a game, you could just go outside and "play."
In the one section where it makes an actual difference, the one discussing special movement modes, speed is specifically called "Walking Speed" to differentitate it from the other types of movement that, though they use the Walk action, are not speed. No other answer is correct so it isn't exactly unreasonable for me to say it isn't correct. When you're given the right answer you already have an understanding of the situation. The correct one, even. So "trying to understand it better" in such a way that you arrive at the wrong answer is absurd and counter-productive.



If you are referring to RC 203, I'd like to bring your attention to:

"If a creature can use a special movement mode, it can take a walk or the run action using its speed (or simply stand still) with that movement mode instead of its walking speed."  

Isn't it apparent that the term speed is not restrictive to refer to just walking speed? Otherwise that would mean if a creature had Fly 6 Walk 3, and it wished to take a walk action using the fly special movement mode during combat, it can fly up to its walking speed, which is 3. 

I feel that if we detach the word 'walk' from the discussion, and use the word 'move' instead, everything will be much clearer.  After all, by definition, a walk is equivalent to a move, and speed is also defined by move.
Thankfully the rules don't care about consensus.

Also it is the opposite of a consensus, since if you look at the previous thread and this one more people agree with the actual rules.

Saying it rubs you the wrong way is an indication you're thinking about this the wrong way. The fact that being near lava doesn't hurt you "rubs" some people the wrong way because "it isn't realistic." Well, no, but realism =! rules. Common sense =! rules. Any reflection of the way the real world might actually work is coincidence at best, really. The rules are a self-contained set that describe how the game works. If it were going to be 100% realistic it wouldn't be a game, you could just go outside and "play."



The set of rules is self-contained of course up to a point. They are not fully defined nor consistent. Nor were they written in an attempt to be that way.

That said, the rules as written and the closest they can be interpreted gives very strong suggestions that since you can fly, burrow, spider climb, and swim as run or walk actions then bonuses and penalties to speed ought to be applied to those other special movement modes when you take a run, walk, or charge action to use those movement modes.
In the one section where it makes an actual difference, the one discussing special movement modes, speed is specifically called "Walking Speed" to differentitate it from the other types of movement that, though they use the Walk action, are not speed. No other answer is correct so it isn't exactly unreasonable for me to say it isn't correct. When you're given the right answer you already have an understanding of the situation. The correct one, even. So "trying to understand it better" in such a way that you arrive at the wrong answer is absurd and counter-productive.

 

So my Scion of Arkhosia paladin in plate can fly at 6, but only goes 5 when moving on the ground?  Woo!
I've been looking around in a couple books for something I remember having read - so far haven't found it - and what I find is that where "walk" is discussed, about the only alternatives ever mentioned are "run" and "shift".

Not "swim", not "climb", not "teleport".

There is a "walk" move action that uses your speed, but there is no "swim" move action that uses your swim speed. There's a "swim" move action that uses an athletics check, but if you have a swim speed then you explicitly do not take this action.

The definition of "walk" says "you move up to your speed".

So if you have a swim speed, how do you move through the water a distance up to your swim speed? You don't swim. You aren't shifting. You aren't running. The remaining option appears to be that you walk.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I've been looking around in a couple books for something I remember having read - so far haven't found it - and what I find is that where "walk" is discussed, about the only alternatives ever mentioned are "run" and "shift".

Not "swim", not "climb", not "teleport".

There is a "walk" move action that uses your speed, but there is no "swim" move action that uses your swim speed. There's a "swim" move action that uses an athletics check, but if you have a swim speed then you explicitly do not take this action.

The definition of "walk" says "you move up to your speed".

So if you have a swim speed, how do you move through the water a distance up to your swim speed? You don't swim. You aren't shifting. You aren't running. The remaining option appears to be that you walk.



walk is a move action where you can move up to your speed, this means you can do it in the air if you have a fly speed, or swiming if you have a swim speed ect.

the problem is they use the word "walk" too often, its the whole reason this problem exists

Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
I've been looking around in a couple books for something I remember having read - so far haven't found it - and what I find is that where "walk" is discussed, about the only alternatives ever mentioned are "run" and "shift".

Not "swim", not "climb", not "teleport".

There is a "walk" move action that uses your speed, but there is no "swim" move action that uses your swim speed. There's a "swim" move action that uses an athletics check, but if you have a swim speed then you explicitly do not take this action.

The definition of "walk" says "you move up to your speed".

So if you have a swim speed, how do you move through the water a distance up to your swim speed? You don't swim. You aren't shifting. You aren't running. The remaining option appears to be that you walk.



You can use a run action to swim, fly,  or any other special movement modes such as spider climb etc. You can also shift or charge with those movement types if you have a swim, fly, _________ speed.
I've been looking around in a couple books for something I remember having read - so far haven't found it - and what I find is that where "walk" is discussed, about the only alternatives ever mentioned are "run" and "shift".

Not "swim", not "climb", not "teleport".

There is a "walk" move action that uses your speed, but there is no "swim" move action that uses your swim speed. There's a "swim" move action that uses an athletics check, but if you have a swim speed then you explicitly do not take this action.

The definition of "walk" says "you move up to your speed".

So if you have a swim speed, how do you move through the water a distance up to your swim speed? You don't swim. You aren't shifting. You aren't running. The remaining option appears to be that you walk.



You can use a run action to swim, fly,  or any other special movement modes such as spider climb etc. You can also shift or charge with those movement types if you have a swim, fly, _________ speed.



except burrow for some reason, you cant shift or charge while burrowing it is exsplictly not allowed by the RC, not sure why (though I even without that I dont think you could charge, you dont have LOE to your desination, not sure)

Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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