Madness at Gardmore 4e or 4essentials?

22 posts / 0 new
Last post
Can "Madness at Gardmore Abbey" run balanced using the original 4 edition rules or should I use 4e "essentials"?
I haven't seen it yet, but just out of curiosity what makes you think it would be unbalanced with O4e classes?
Can "Madness at Gardmore Abbey" run balanced using the original 4 edition rules or should I use 4e "essentials"?

Essentials is a part of 4e. This is like asking whether you should use chuck roast or beef in a recipe.

Adventures in particular don't "see" any difference between Essentials and other 4e mechanics. The PCs can play whatever they want, or whatever you want them to; the balance of the adventure won't be significantly affected by those choices.

Edit to add: I haven't run the adventure yet, but I own it and have read it thoroughly. I can't think of a reason that it wouldn't run fine with PHB1 only, if that's what turns your crank.
too many vague terms to answer 

Assuming original means everything but the KotF* books and essentials means just the evergreen 10, it is balanced exactly as well between either and/or both sets of rules.  Unless I am forgetting a ritual somewhere without which the entire Gardmore adventure fails, in which case the most absolutely inflexible purists would demand that Essentials be deemed incompatible with it.

as mboss77 asks though, any other response requires you clarify your assumptions about the differences between the 2 flavors of rules.  thinking about them as 2 different games or editions is like considering the d6 wth pips as a different type of die than a d6 with numbers. 

INSIDE SCOOP, GAMERS: In the new version of D&D, it will no longer be "Edition Wars." It will be "Edition Lair Assault." - dungeonbastard

Can "Madness at Gardmore Abbey" run balanced using the original 4 edition rules or should I use 4e "essentials"?




Essentials is not a separate ruleset.  If you mean can you use character classes and races from outside the essentials line of products, then I see no reason why not.
Essentials is 4e, 4e is Essentials.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
On a general level, there may be some minor compatibility issues, but they tend to be corner-case. IE: an adventure allows the PCs to recharge a daily power; Essentials-Martial characters don't have any. I don't recall anything in Madness that falls into this category though.

Other than that, the main clash between the pre- and post-Essentials books is the treasure system. Madness seems to use preplaced treasure rather than the post-Essentials Dungeon article habit of saying "the PCs find XdY items of XdY+Z level", so that shouldn't be an issue.
Thanks for your responses. I am very new to "Essentials" So I guess I was still unsure if it was a different ruleset or not. It seemed compatible. But I want to double check.

Second question....

If I start my players at level 6 How much starting gear should they begin with. Should I use the Parcel system laid out for levels 1-6 in DMG1 or will that be TOO much.
Thanks for your responses. I am very new to "Essentials" So I guess I was still unsure if it was a different ruleset or not. It seemed compatible. But I want to double check.

Second question....

If I start my players at level 6 How much starting gear should they begin with. Should I use the Parcel system laid out for levels 1-6 in DMG1 or will that be TOO much.



standard starting gear for beginning at a higher level as per the dmg would be a level 7 item, level 6 item, and level 5 item, with gold worth another level 5 item. and these items shouldnt be rares



standard starting gear for beginning at a higher level as per the dmg would be a level 7 item, level 6 item, and level 5 item, with gold worth another level 5 item. and these items shouldnt be rares




Also, they can have any mundane equipment they want for free.
The biggest problem with mixing 4eE and O4e is mixed groups of monsters.  O4e brutes, soldiers, and controllers protecting 4eE artillary, skirmishers, and lurkers makes for a pretty brutal encounter.
The biggest problem with mixing 4eE and O4e is mixed groups of monsters.  O4e brutes, soldiers, and controllers protecting 4eE artillary, skirmishers, and lurkers makes for a pretty brutal encounter.


...if you consider MM3 an Essentials product...? Undecided

Also, brutes got arguably the biggest increase in power as of MM3 in the form of a +2 bonus to-hit on all their attacks.  Soldiers didn't fare poorly, either - they lost their accuracy bonus on attacks, but can now do reasonable damage instead of, for example, the comical 1d12+7 at mid-Paragon.

The general advice is to use MM3 and later monsters, or else to mathematically fix older ones.  It has nothing to do with your Essentials question.  If you're running Madness at Gardmore Abbey, this should all be taken care of for you.

-O
Thanks for your responses. I am very new to "Essentials" So I guess I was still unsure if it was a different ruleset or not. It seemed compatible. But I want to double check.

It can certainly be used as a separate rule set, since the Essentials line has a full, subtely different, rule set from the core books.  WotC organized play even uses it as such, restricting D&D Encounter to "Essentials +" with core banned. 

However, they are compatible, and it's up to the DM how much of each to use.

If I start my players at level 6 How much starting gear should they begin with. Should I use the Parcel system laid out for levels 1-6 in DMG1 or will that be TOO much.

You shouldn't use either the parcel system in the DMG, or the random system in the DM kit.  Rather, there are rules in the PH1 for creating characters above first level.  In summary, the characters get three magic items - one of the character's level, one each 1 above and below that level - plus gold to buy additional gear equal to the value of a level-1 item.  For Essentials, add the proviso that only one of the three items picked can be 'rare' and that any items bought with gold must be 'common.'

So, for level 6, a 7th, 6th, & 5th level item, plus 1000gp.

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

Can "Madness at Gardmore Abbey" run balanced using the original 4 edition rules or should I use 4e "essentials"?



This is like asking "is it balanced with PHB3 classes, or should I insist people only use PHB2 classes?"
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
You shouldn't use either the parcel system in the DMG, or the random system in the DM kit.  Rather, there are rules in the PH1 for creating characters above first level.  In summary, the characters get three magic items - one of the character's level, one each 1 above and below that level - plus gold to buy additional gear equal to the value of a level-1 item.  For Essentials, add the proviso that only one of the three items picked can be 'rare' and that any items bought with gold must be 'common.'

So, for level 6, a 7th, 6th, & 5th level item, plus 1000gp.



I think the other 2 picked can both be Uncommons, though, right?

So, a lvl 7, a lvl 6, and a lvl5, which can be 1 Rare and 2 Uncommons

and 1,000 gp, which can only purchase Common items.  All mundane gear is free.
This is like asking "is it balanced with PHB3 classes, or should I insist people only use PHB2 classes?"

PH3 classes are a little whacked.  Sticking with PH1 and PH2 classes would be better.  An exception might be made for the Monk.

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

You shouldn't use either the parcel system in the DMG, or the random system in the DM kit.  Rather, there are rules in the PH1 for creating characters above first level.  In summary, the characters get three magic items - one of the character's level, one each 1 above and below that level - plus gold to buy additional gear equal to the value of a level-1 item.  For Essentials, add the proviso that only one of the three items picked can be 'rare' and that any items bought with gold must be 'common.'

So, for level 6, a 7th, 6th, & 5th level item, plus 1000gp.



I think the other 2 picked can both be Uncommons, though, right?

Right.

So, a lvl 7, a lvl 6, and a lvl5, which can be 1 Rare and 2 Uncommons

and 1,000 gp, which can only purchase Common items.  All mundane gear is free.

I thought mundane gear being free was a 3e thing?  Anyway, it's darn close to free when your budget is 1000gp. 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

This is like asking "is it balanced with PHB3 classes, or should I insist people only use PHB2 classes?"

PH3 classes are a little whacked.  Sticking with PH1 and PH2 classes would be better.  An exception might be made for the Monk.



PH3 ones are different, not unbalanced.  But switch the question to "is it balanced with Arcane Power, or should I insist people only use Martial Power 2?" for a diffeerent example of why "is it balanced with essentials or just normal D&D" is a stupid question.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
If nothing else, power creep is a fact of gaming life, and a recent module might be well-balanced for the full ruleset, but tough for characters built using only older stuff.

But there are other factors unique to the current status of the game, in addition to that.  Essentials made several changes that affect encounter balance, which might make a module written for Essentials+ less than perfect for a core party.  The rules on magic item dailies changed, making item dailies more accessible, especially early in the day, at heroic levels.  Rituals virtualy disapeared (a few existing as class features).  And, classes were introduced with varying daily resources, changing the dynamics of encounter balance, as well. 

So, it's not an entirely unreasonable thing to think about. 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

This is like asking "is it balanced with PHB3 classes, or should I insist people only use PHB2 classes?"

PH3 classes are a little whacked.  Sticking with PH1 and PH2 classes would be better.  An exception might be made for the Monk.



PH3 ones are different, not unbalanced.  But switch the question to "is it balanced with Arcane Power, or should I insist people only use Martial Power 2?" for a diffeerent example of why "is it balanced with essentials or just normal D&D" is a stupid question.

PHB2 was more balanced then PHB1/PHB3 out of the box.  Though errata probably makes PHB2 the worst (swarm druids).

That said, the essentials stuff is probably the most balanced.  But part of that is simply because they don't have as many options too balance.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

This is like asking "is it balanced with PHB3 classes, or should I insist people only use PHB2 classes?"

PH3 classes are a little whacked.  Sticking with PH1 and PH2 classes would be better.  An exception might be made for the Monk.




I find nothing wrong with the classes balance-wise.  I do not feel a "power creep".  I liked the PHB2 best because there was more variety among the classes than with the PHB1.  Let's face it, the PHB1 classes didn't have a whole lot to differentiate them all and make then unique.  It's what chased a lot of people away from 4e when it first came out.  PHB2 made things a lot better.

I got sidetracked...

I recommend against any NEW (to 4e) players using PHB3 classes because they are more complicated.  I'd rather them get used to the conncept of the AEDU system before introducing things like mutiple at-wills with encounter-based power augmentations.  And the monk, while the most like other AEDU classes, does have the ki focus and full discipline issues.  I understand them perfectly, but as can be seen from how much discussion they sparked, it is clear that sometimes the mechanics are confusing to new people.
Let's face it, the PHB1 classes didn't have a whole lot to differentiate them all and make then unique.  It's what chased a lot of people away from 4e when it first came out.

PH1 classes were more than adequately differentiated, but they were also balanced, and /that/ did generate a lot of hate.  For someone who's used to 'differentiating' his caster with some flavorfully overwhelming vast god-like magical power far beyond the ken of mere mortals (like that tin can with the sharp stick collecting feats in the corner), it was a traumatic change. 

That said, the essentials stuff is probably the most balanced.  But part of that is simply because they don't have as many options too balance.

One would expect the more limitted system to be easier to balance - but, you have to actually try for balance for 'easier' to make a difference.  The essentials aproach to addressing the 'differentiation' problem, above, did exactly what those whining about it wanted:  reduced the balance between casters (with dailies) and martial classes (without).  It just didn't go nearly so far as they wanted.  It went far enough that the balance among the 5 classes in HotFL is more precarious than that among the 8 classes (and 18 builds) in the PH1. 

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

Sign In to post comments