Sleep Spell

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The Spell Sleep, says that a saving trow the effect ends. During sleep, a coup de grace can be realized, my question is:

I could be making the coup de grace to the target saving trow a pass or he would wake up in the first attack?


The Spell Sleep, says that a saving trow the effect ends. During sleep, a coup de grace can be realized, my question is:

I could be making the coup de grace to the target saving trow a pass or he would wake up in the first attack?





Powers end when they say they end, not before.  The only way to wake out of a sleep spell is to make a successful saving throw.
As gwydion9 said, the Sleep keyword clarifies that targets of Sleep-induced effects don't wake up like with normal Sleep.

RC 119 Sleep: Sleep Powers knock creatures unconcious. Unless otherwise noted, this unconciousness is not normal sleep, so a creature that is subject to it cannot simply be awakened; the power specifies how the unconcious ends. 

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The Spell Sleep, says that a saving trow the effect ends. During sleep, a coup de grace can be realized, my question is:

I could be making the coup de grace to the target saving trow a pass or he would wake up in the first attack?



Like they said, do anything you want to him but he won't wake up until he makes that saving throw.  Enjoy your +2 for combat advantage and the -5 to all his defenses!  Hack away!

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Then the monster can take a coup de grace to succeed in saving a trow?

Orb of Imposition and Sleep or Face of Deth!

This is very overpower.
Make sure you get the errata, Sleep is very powerful but there's been a lot of updates to powers that reduce saving throws and such. If you use the original versions then yes, you can perma-sleep monsters. But under the new rules it becomes far, far harder to do so.
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Make sure you get the errata, Sleep is very powerful but there's been a lot of updates to powers that reduce saving throws and such. If you use the original versions then yes, you can perma-sleep monsters. But under the new rules it becomes far, far harder to do so.



One turn is most often permanent enough.  Sleep and Slumber Of The Winter Court are killers.

(That's why they're Daily, though.)
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
It's a shame the Save mechanic in 4e doesn't scale up well.

Once you are in late heroic, the Elites and Solos get enough of a bonus to saving throws that they pretty much auto-save.  Of course, this is why the newer monsters generall have a trait that says something like "(Save ends) effect end at the end of this creature's turn." or something.  Kind of takes away from the powers like Sleep, though since that means the monster will never be knocked unconscious by it.
It's a shame the Save mechanic in 4e doesn't scale up well.

Once you are in late heroic, the Elites and Solos get enough of a bonus to saving throws that they pretty much auto-save. 



Uh, no?  That's completely wrong?

Elites, from level 1 to level 40, get a +2 bonus to saves.
Solos, from level 1 to level 40, get a +5 bonus to saves.

Monsters fail MORE saves as levels go up, because players start having access to penalties to saves, whereas low-level characters rarely get to apply penalties, and even high-level monsters rarely get save bonuses.

Of course, this is why the newer monsters generall have a trait that says something like "(Save ends) effect end at the end of this creature's turn." or something.  Kind of takes away from the powers like Sleep, though since that means the monster will never be knocked unconscious by it.



Depends on the monster.  Normal monsters and Elites almost never have a trait like this.  Most of the new Solos have something similar, but that's to prevent a single status effect from being 5x as effective by taking out "five monsters".

Even then, most of the ones I've noticed specifically reduce or end Daze and Stun, not any save-ends effect.  Take the various new-model Dragons:  They've all got an Instinctive Attack mini-action that ends Stuns and Dominates if the Stun or Dominate prevents them from taking it, and they've all got an "end Stun, Dominate, and Daze at the end of turn" thing.  Even then, it's well worth applying one of those conditions, you're just only ever going to get one round of benefit out of it.

Hitting them with Sleep?  Still works, and still works *hard*, because they've got a +5 to saves (the same +5 for a L1 Solo and a L35 Solo, I will point out) but that's relatively easy to cancel out for a round, and their status-effect immunity does NOT stop Unconscious.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Hitting them with Sleep?  Still works, and still works *hard*, because they've got a +5 to saves (the same +5 for a L1 Solo and a L35 Solo, I will point out) but that's relatively easy to cancel out for a round, and their status-effect immunity does NOT stop Unconscious.

Yeah, and that's a problem.  Even if the creature succeeds on its saving throw, one full round of coup-de-grace attacks is usually enough to make a potentially interesting combat into a boring one-sided crit-fest.

All sleep effects ought to end after the first hit like slumber of the Winter Court does, or at least grant an additional saving throw after each hit.  I highly recommend using a house rule to that effect.

Hitting them with Sleep?  Still works, and still works *hard*, because they've got a +5 to saves (the same +5 for a L1 Solo and a L35 Solo, I will point out) but that's relatively easy to cancel out for a round, and their status-effect immunity does NOT stop Unconscious.

Yeah, and that's a problem.  Even if the creature succeeds on its saving throw, one full round of coup-de-grace attacks is usually enough to make a potentially interesting combat into a boring one-sided crit-fest.



Yup.  I mentioned that before.

All sleep effects ought to end after the first hit like slumber of the Winter Court does, or at least grant an additional saving throw after each hit.  I highly recommend using a house rule to that effect.



Interestingly, Slumber *doesn't* end on first damage if you miss - only if you hit and drop the "Unconscious (no save)" version.

Having all Unconsciousness effects end automatically on first damage is workable, and generally good enough.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.