Travesty

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Hello part of the forums I never visit. It feels nice to be in a new place, with your own trolls, your own leaders, your own moderators. How are you?

On to business. I've played D&D once... when I was six. I don't know much about the game aside from the very basics, but it seems like fun. My friend is having a D&D party in a few weeks though, and I plan on attending. He's drawing up a campaign for us (it will be all newcomers to D&D there), and he was talking to me about it. After some investigation, I believe he's commiting a travesty in the world of D&D. For, you see, throughout this campaign there is not one single...

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tavern.


I'm pretty sure that's required right? Isn't it in the rulebooks or the Ten Commandments or something? Isn't this the wrong way to introduce people to the game? 

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012

Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

Hello part of the forums I never visit. It feels nice to be in a new place, with your own trolls, your own leaders, your own moderators. How are you?

On to business. I've played D&D once... when I was six. I don't know much about the game aside from the very basics, but it seems like fun. My friend is having a D&D party in a few weeks though, and I plan on attending. He's drawing up a campaign for us (it will be all newcomers to D&D there), and he was talking to me about it. After some investigation, I believe he's commiting a travesty in the world of D&D. For, you see, throughout this campaign there is not one single...

Show

tavern.


I'm pretty sure that's required right? Isn't it in the rulebooks or the Ten Commandments or something? Isn't this the wrong way to introduce people to the game? 

That definitely doesn't sound right to me... What's the point of killing and pillaging if there isn't a somewhat sketchy local tavern to spend your well-earned gold in?  Also a good source of rumors and a convenient place to meet new party members (or their replacements).  Ultimately it's up to the DM but I think in most adventuring communities the tavern is pretty much the first building to be constructed.
if there's no tavern, what will the party burn down?

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

Its okay if there is no Tavern really. Not every villages do.

As long as there is an Inn you're good. Inns are much better.

Inn have beds and bards. 
Taverns have barns and brawls. 

PS Don't loose time with the maid. You're probably the 2,778th adventurers to try your luck. Chancea are she won't be interested. Tongue Out
Now that's just not ok. Tell him to stop.


Unless he's going to have Inns and pubs instead...I guess...
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Alright team, good job! This thread has gotten him to add a tavern! 

While you're here, I've decided to be a wizard so that I can cast magic missle (or so I hear). Should come in handy in the less illuminated dungeons. Is this the right choice? Are wizards the cool kids I hear they are?

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012

Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

Chancea are she won't be interested. 



Unless she is a doppleganger, thief, assassin, polymorphed dragon etc.

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Chancea are she won't be interested. 



Unless she is a doppleganger, thief, assassin, polymorphed dragon etc.



So you are proposing another explaination for half-breeds: inns and taverns?



Well, Beer Googles do explain a lot.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Hello part of the forums I never visit. It feels nice to be in a new place, with your own trolls, your own leaders, your own moderators. How are you?

On to business. I've played D&D once... when I was six. I don't know much about the game aside from the very basics, but it seems like fun. My friend is having a D&D party in a few weeks though, and I plan on attending. He's drawing up a campaign for us (it will be all newcomers to D&D there), and he was talking to me about it. After some investigation, I believe he's commiting a travesty in the world of D&D. For, you see, throughout this campaign there is not one single...

Show

tavern.


*gasp*

I'm pretty sure that's required right?

Yes.
Isn't it in the rulebooks or the Ten Commandments or something?

Almost positive it's somewhere on Gygax's epitaph (like 95%).
Isn't this the wrong way to introduce people to the game?

It is; glad to hear his mind has been changed.  Later on, as your group becomes more experienced, you may go a bit crazy and do things like beginning a game with characters on their way *to* the tavern, or perhaps having the tavern explode in the first 10 minutes of the session.  But it's probably best to start simple for now.

As for Wizards, they aren't as relatively cool as they used to be, but what's a campaign without darkness to be casted into and the requisite caster to do so?

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I've decided to be a wizard so that I can cast magic missle (or so I hear). Should come in handy in the less illuminated dungeons.



There is an elf in front of you.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Wait...nm, wrong game.

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HOLY BUCKETS!  It just occurred to me that while there ARE taverns in my campaign, we've been playing for almost three years and the party has never entered one!  MUST FIX NOW!!1!1

Not sure how I'm going to do that when the party is on the run with a bunch of refugees from an anti-human genocidal army of monsters though.  Well, there's always a way ...

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Alright team, good job! This thread has gotten him to add a tavern! 

While you're here, I've decided to be a wizard so that I can cast magic missle (or so I hear). Should come in handy in the less illuminated dungeons. Is this the right choice? Are wizards the cool kids I hear they are?



     a-Magic Missle is not a good choice
     b-For the less illuminated dungeons, your light spell is quite useful.
     c-Whether wizards are cool depends on your definition.  My sorcerer easily hands out way more damage than the party mage, but the conditions he inflicts seriously annoy the enemy [also the party at times.]
Alright team, good job! This thread has gotten him to add a tavern! 

While you're here, I've decided to be a wizard so that I can cast magic missle (or so I hear). Should come in handy in the less illuminated dungeons. Is this the right choice? Are wizards the cool kids I hear they are?



     a-Magic Missle is not a good choice
     b-For the less illuminated dungeons, your light spell is quite useful.
     c-Whether wizards are cool depends on your definition.  My sorcerer easily hands out way more damage than the party mage, but the conditions he inflicts seriously annoy the enemy [also the party at times.]



But magic missle is like the cornerstone of D&D. It's the spell you cast. Not choosing Magic Missle is like not having a tavern. Also, I was making a deadale wives reference.

How does magic even work in this? It has some odd "spell-per-day" system or something? The wizard recharges overnight like a hybrid prius or something?

Oh, and one more thing. My DM is telling me that it'll be a while before I can learn a strong enough fire spell to make some sort of hot tub. Is this true? What am I supposed to do without a hot tub, where will I meet all the babes? All the cool wizards have them.

(Yes, I will keep autocarding here like a tool)

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012

Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

In 4E all characters in Players handbook 1-2 have a number of powers that they can use some 1/day some 1/ fight and the basics you can use at-will.

If it's the Wizard casting a big spell the cleric calling on the big miricle or the fighter using his finisher combo it's all the same mechanically 

Wizards can have a small fire explosion at-will at lv 1 so if the DM is flexible and allows improve you could heat up a brass tub if you had too.

They have changed magic missile since players handbook it is auto hit flat damage so it will not work with damage rolls or when you hit abillities.

If you play the mage from essentials you get magic missle in addition to the number of powers the PHB wizards gets

Sorry for all the serious mechanics talk will try to joke latter.        
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Not choosing magic missile is like having some clue how the game works and what your job is.



And my job, dear sir, is to have fun! What could be more fun than casting the most iconic spell in the game, I ask you?

Fun? Or is it "mirth" around here? Does D&D mean invoking old timey speak?

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3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012

Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

Rach?  This is a humor/goofing around thread.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
What could be more fun than casting the most iconic spell in the game, I ask you?



More fun than casting magic missile? Literally anything.

Here's what magic missile does: it kills one guy, who was so weak that any damage would have killed him. And you do that instead of something interesting. Like, say, throwing a giant column of lightning down that will kill that guy and also do other things.



First, show me that level 0 collumn of lightning spell. Then we'll talk.

Also, btw, although this is humorous, everything I've said in this thread is true. 

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012

Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

Wizard At-Will 1, Storm Pillar.



Why does magic missle even exist then if it's just strictly worse than this cool lightning thingy-ma-jigger? 

3,000th post: September 5, 2010 4,000th post: March 24, 2012

Winner of the YMTC Ravnica War of the Guilds contest as guild Dimir.

Snapcaster Mage is the best card of all time. How do you deal?

I.. actually always loved Magic Missiles as a spell.

It's kinda overpowered by design, well, the pre-4th ed, if not pre-3,X one. Auto=hit, and you can do a few mores with levels? win.
Wizard At-Will 1, Storm Pillar.



Why does magic missle even exist then if it's just strictly worse than this cool lightning thingy-ma-jigger? 



Because it's iconic?

There are a lot of powers that are strictly worse than other options.  Magic Missile happens to be one of them.  If you really care, head on over to the CharOp forums and check out the class guides, where knowledgeable players have rated powers, feats, skills, and equipment on pure effectiveness for any given class.

CharOpping is, for all the crap it gets for "ruining" the game, really just a mental excercise and an acknowledgement of the inequities in the system.  Ultimately, it serves to educate.  No one is forcing anyone to build their character with only the best powers (though if you wanted to, you could).  I view it as a resource.

If you envision your Wizard shooting bolts of magical energy unnerringly across the room, frying mooks in their tracks, then go ahead and pick Magic Missile.  So what if it sucks compared to Storm Pillar (or pretty much every other At-Will spell available)?  Magic Missile is the only Magic Missile, and if what you want is Magic Missile, you can't get it any other way.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.

Because it's iconic?.



Which is another way of saying 'no good reason'.  'Iconism' is meaningless.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
If wizards weren't already really, really good, I would suggest making magic missile a minor action.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Main problem with Magic Missle is it's weak damage, scales terribly, and doesn't technically "hit".
Wizard At-Will 1, Storm Pillar.



Why does magic missle even exist then if it's just strictly worse than this cool lightning thingy-ma-jigger? 


     It's not strictly worse.  It's merely statistically worse.  One time in six, MM does more damage and there are cases where SP does no damage at all.  That is more than balanced by the 2/3 of the time where it does more damage, plus its ability to hit several targets  [It's rare, but I figure an ideal SP can do 50 hp at 1st level, or effects worth as much.], but there will be times when you would prefer to use MM.
      Now the iconism value of MM is clearly above zero, but just like all the people who tell surveys they prefer to buy green, and then go to the store and buy the cheap non-green product, it's not a huge amount.  We just aren't willing to to sacrifice more than a point or two of damage [if that] for tradition.
     By contrast, the tavern we started with is outright useful.  It may be a trite way to start an adventure, but nobody has come up with a better [which is one reason it is trite].
Actually another point about why Magic Missile is no fun, and it's not mechanical or iconic or whatever but far more tangible and easy to understand: you don't get to roll any dice.

It's just "boom, 6 damage to this dude". Turn over. Extremely unexciting. I've seen it used in play, and most people didn't like it mostly because of that factor. Popping annoying minions with good cover was a useful feature for it, as was shooting stuff when you had penalties, but they ultimately got rid of it because it was anti-climatic and boring.
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Wizard At-Will 1, Storm Pillar.



Why does magic missle even exist then if it's just strictly worse than this cool lightning thingy-ma-jigger? 



Because some of the designers care more about letting people be classically ineffective than writing the game they work for.



nice way to state opinion as fact. nice way to assume you know the devs cares and worries. nice way to assume your preference is everyone else's. also, nice passive-aggressive way to claim the designers are subpar.

erachima, i value and respect your posts, especially when they refer to mechanical concepts. your knowledge of the game and rule set is amazing. however in other more opinionated posts, your blatant disregard for the way others play D&D is aggrivating. it's like you can't concieve of anyone playing differently from 'your way', which is obviously the 'right way'. 

even if you view other's way of playing D&D as the 'wrong way' (tongue in cheek), why can you not let these people enjoy the game in thier own fashion ?
to some, the past informs the present, and the current incarnation would not be appealing without some nods to history. magic missile is one of these (edit: even if the current version really is quite crappy). this is D&D 4e. we would not be here without basic, 1e, 2e, and 3.x.

Would 4e be a great game on its own, without sacred cows and nods to the history of the game, with every inefficient power removed ? yes ! would it have the draw that 4e currently does, with the full force of the brand name behind it ? no, if only because of marketing value.

in summation: by slamming the designers, by slamming the history of the game, by slamming the way other players derive entertainment, what position are you actually advocating ?

all this from one sentence.
Bane of Gnomes. "An angel of snuggles is a bad match for evil gods." -Mike Mearls (Worlds&Monsters, p.72)
Well, if you can name one thing that's fun about using Magic Missile in an actual game that is not "it reminds me of that time when", I'll give you a point. Until then, the current Magic Missile is the most boring power in the game and it has literally nothing going for it other then iconic value and nostalgia.

With any other sub-par option you'd have had a point, but not this one. This one really is just as bad as it's being made out to be.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.

     By contrast, the tavern we started with is outright useful.


 Yes, it does much more damage when you hit someone with it.


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Well, if you can name one thing that's fun about using Magic Missile in an actual game that is not "it reminds me of that time when", I'll give you a point. Until then, the current Magic Missile is the most boring power in the game and it has literally nothing going for it other then iconic value and nostalgia.

With any other sub-par option you'd have had a point, but not this one. This one really is just as bad as it's being made out to be.



First, a caveat.  I vastly prefer the original 4e incarnation of MM over the current "more classic" version that never misses.  That said...

Sometimes I want a spell that evokes a bolt of magical force that erupts from my hand and streaks across the battlefield, striking with unerring accuracy at my foes.  I might jazz it up a bit (perhpas it screeches like I imagine a real-world missile does as it flies through the air, or explodes with a puff of fine wispy magical mist on impact, or something like that), but it remains to my knowledge the only super-high accuracy force damage long range spell, weak and generic as it is.

Sometimes I don't mind the weakness, and sometimes I'm explicitly after the generic-ness for reasons unrelated to nostalgia.

But yes, speaking on pure mechanical effectiveness, it is utter crap.

Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
Not just mechanical effectiveness. Describing that shrieking bolt will be fun two or three times, but the "no dice being rolled" is probably going to get to you eventually as well. It's boring and predictable in what it does, and that's a far more important issue then just the fact that it never misses.

Even just making it 1d4+Int mod would go a long way towards making it fun. (Of course it'd also be broken with damage bonusses, that's the downside)

The "never misses" character might sound like fun, but I doubt it is for more then 3 battles or so.
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Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
i like the daily that lets you mm as a minor all encounter. other than that ehhhh
Actually another point about why Magic Missile is no fun, and it's not mechanical or iconic or whatever but far more tangible and easy to understand: you don't get to roll any dice.

It's just "boom, 6 damage to this dude". Turn over. Extremely unexciting. I've seen it used in play, and most people didn't like it mostly because of that factor. Popping annoying minions with good cover was a useful feature for it, as was shooting stuff when you had penalties, but they ultimately got rid of it because it was anti-climatic and boring.


This is entirely the real problem with Magic Missile.  The desire to roll dice (and roll your own dice, in the case of being dominated) is a very strong impetus to what people consider fun.  Stun and Dominate (And Unconscious, Petrified, and if you're a Melee class - immobilized) are constantly being derided as "making the game not fun" (ignoring the fact that the people who complain about this never complained about 3.x where you could be removed from combat for 1d4 hours).

I'm sure it's been said before, but I'm taking credit for coming up with this phrase:
No Dice?  No dice.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Magic Missile is the spell you cast at darkness. That's just how it is. Light? Pfft! Don't gimme that cantrip nonesense! That's not gonna do any damage at all to the darkness. Magic Missile, though... that's some sweet guaranteed damage there, even if you have been utterly unable to roll above a 5 the whole evening.


As for the lack of tavern, that is distressing... but there is also something to be said for starting off naked and captured by kobolds. Not that I've done that as a DM or anything. What? Why are you looking at me like that?

Resident jark. Resident Minister of Education and Misinformation.
Im Dming a campaign using the lost crown of neverwinter and we burned down the first 3 taverns the PCs were supposed to go to....do you think its time to not let my PCs into bars?
I actually have on group that's on a "Not allowed to roleplay within 10 miles of a city" restriction. Because they'd try to burn it down.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Well, if you can name one thing that's fun about using Magic Missile in an actual game that is not "it reminds me of that time when", I'll give you a point. Until then, the current Magic Missile is the most boring power in the game and it has literally nothing going for it other then iconic value and nostalgia.

With any other sub-par option you'd have had a point, but not this one. This one really is just as bad as it's being made out to be.



I have a person in my game who loves his magic missile. Of course, he mostly uses it with the daily that makes it a minor action for the rest of the encounter, but he does love it.

I think making it a minor action, and a class feature for the arcanist, just like the mage, would make it worthwhile and fun.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I actually have on group that's on a "Not allowed to roleplay within 10 miles of a city" restriction. Because they'd try to burn it down.

You are an epic dungeon master indeed.

People bashing magic missile and people that like magic missile seems silly. Maybe people enjoy that they have the magical power to just point and do damage. For them, magic missile is a great spell. Which means they'd also love Wizard's Fury (D1), Arcane Bolt (E3), Arcane Arrows (E13), and Arcane Volley (E23). And hopefully such a person enjoys their gaming immensely. Sure he might not carry his own weight or do his role's job, but maybe that doesn't bother anyone else at the table. That's when optimizing fun choices is what counts.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
Wizard At-Will 1, Storm Pillar.



Why does magic missle even exist then if it's just strictly worse than this cool lightning thingy-ma-jigger? 



Because some of the designers care more about letting people be classically ineffective than writing the game they work for.



nice way to state opinion as fact. nice way to assume you know the devs cares and worries. nice way to assume your preference is everyone else's. also, nice passive-aggressive way to claim the designers are subpar.


      But in the case of the revised Magic Missily, the designers were suppar.  There may be more polite ways of saying they messed up bad, but doing nothing would have been so clearly superior here.

[author=57309598 post=512605845]
to some, the past informs the present, and the current incarnation would not be appealing without some nods to history. magic missile is one of these (edit: even if the current version really is quite crappy). this is D&D 4e. we would not be here without basic, 1e, 2e, and 3.x.

      And we want to preserve the good parts of that.  The auto hit feature of MM is not one of those.  It has been recognized as game flaw since 1e or so.  Rather popular game flaw, but that is one of the most dangerous kinds for just that reason.

[author=57309598 post=512605845]
in summation: by slamming the designers, by slamming the history of the game, by slamming the way other players derive entertainment, what position are you actually advocating ?


     The critic does not need to be advocating any position at all.  One often does, if only at the implied level, but saying MM does 6 damage while other choices average 10 is simply stating facts and does not need to be joined with a preference for any spell.
Well, if you can name one thing that's fun about using Magic Missile in an actual game that is not "it reminds me of that time when", I'll give you a point. Until then, the current Magic Missile is the most boring power in the game and it has literally nothing going for it other then iconic value and nostalgia.

With any other sub-par option you'd have had a point, but not this one. This one really is just as bad as it's being made out to be.

I have a person in my game who loves his magic missile. Of course, he mostly uses it with the daily that makes it a minor action for the rest of the encounter, but he does love it.

I think making it a minor action, and a class feature for the arcanist, just like the mage, would make it worthwhile and fun.


I'm often considered a buzzkill because when people are excited and happy about things that are worse, detrimental, based on lies, or just plain bad, I have a tendancy to point out how absurd their joy is.  "Yeah wow, that's really cool that you just did 24 Damage at level 11.  I bet it would be cooler if you had used sleep instead and let the ranger Coup de Grace that dragon for 150 though."

Also, it needs to remain a standard action, Wizards should not get a class feature that does more damage, more reliably, than any striker.  It just needs to do 1d4 damage and have an attack roll again, there was literally nothing wrong with it before; currently it's either completely useless, or can be used as part of a level 30 build to do 5000 damage as a daily AP bomb, or as part of a level 16 build that prevents your allies from ever getting hit by melee/close attacks.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
There is doing your job, and then there is optimizing. 

Just doing one's job leaves room for fun things.  You can carry your weight without using every turn to optimize. My PCs aren't Oped, and they have fun.  They also work very well together with their "not-CharOped" characters, and as a result our combats last 45 minutes so far. 

Optimizing leaves no room for fun, only room for math. I can't see playing a game just to squeeze out that extra 5%.
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69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
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