Strength of Essentials Classes vs. Standard?

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More than a year has passed since Essentials was released. I actually love the new Essentials Martial classes, partially because I think they "feel" more Martial (augmenting basic attacks rather than reflavored spells). I'm currious, though, if anyone has crunched the numbers to see how they compare to the PHB Martial classes. They lose dailies, but their standards have a bit more oomph (the fighter and rogue get extra damage to basics, for instance).

Poe's Law is alive and well.

They're consistent, but they have much less nova potential. They can all abuse charge optimization, though.

Personally, I find them extremely boring, as they're very linear again. They do their job, though.

Would have been nice if they had made stances/tricks/whatever for Paragon and Epic so you're not choosing the same stuff at 30 that you were choosing at level 1 to augment. 
There's so much optimizing that can go into number-crunching that you could get almost any result you wanted.

The basic-attack-spammers should certainly get high DPR, if optimized for it, since there are many basic-attack-enhancing items (and a few feats), and basic attacks are used in Charge, which is profoundly amenable to damage optimization.

That advantage should neatly make up for the disadvantage of lacking variety in Encounter attack powers and lacking dailies completely - at some balance point in terms of encounters/day. 

Dailies are a sort of monkeywrench when it comes to encounter balance.  They're a packet of effectiveness that may be used in some encounters, but not others, or even all dumped on one encounter.  When everyone is rationed the same number of dailies (and those dailies aren't badly out of balance with eachother), it's /only/ a problem for encounter balance, though, not class balance. 

So, if the basic-attack classes are to balance with daily classes, the marginal superiority of their basic attacks compared to at-wills,  have to add up to the sum of those daily packets.  To do that, they need a some number of rounds, or more conveniently, encounters, per day to rack that total up. 

The average number of encounters is supposed to be 4-5 day.  I ran some very basic numbers a while back, Slayer vs Barbarian, and they did indeed balance out in terms of DPR, right at that 4.5 average.  I don't think it's unfair, for the sake of argument, to assume that the daily-less E-classes generally do balance right at that point, that that was the design goal, and that our designers have gotten pretty good over the 3 years of doing 4e prior to Essentials.

If that's the case, then in a campaign that deviats significantly from that average - say, one that tends towards grueling 8-encounter days, for instance, that balance won't hold.   With longer 'days,' there will be more rounds of at-wills being ground out, and the basic-attack-spammers will pull well ahead in effectiveness.  Conversely, in the not really that unusual single-encounter-per-day campaign, dailies will play a huge role - at higher levels, a character might not even get down to encounter powers before the day's one (Level + OMG) encounter is over - and characters without them would inevitably underperform.  (This last was really evident, if no surprise, at Lair Assault, a single brutal encounter, in effect.)


Of course, the more heavily optimized a characters, the more the balance point may be distorted.

 

 

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Thanks for the post TV you cleared up lots of questions.
OP: Do you remember when WotC said that there would be a Ki power source? For a year, I've felt that the PHBI Martial classes were the Ki classes. Masters of Martial combat who specifically prepare highly-formalized techniques each day. Fighters with Encounter and Daily powers feels like there is some kind of mysticism involved.

  The Essential Martials are much stronger when wielding Master's Blades and being led by a Warlord. Feats and Magic items made before 2010 highly undervalued MBAs and RBAs, and can be used for great profit with Essentials Martials. 

Having played a Thief and a Hunter, I can tell you that I never missed with those guys. Their attack bonuses were insane! What they lacked were combat options to do things other than attack and hit. 

For an environment where 3+ encounters happen in a day, the Essentials Martial classes come out ahead.     

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You're going to have to be more compairing. Which class are we compairing?

Cavalier? Worse then paladin.
Knight? Equal to a fighter.
Mage? Better then wizards.

Overall, essentials are a very balanced books.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Very interesting points Tony. Thanks very much for them. I may or may not formally adopt the Essentials classes as my campaign standard, or I may instead take some theories from them and apply them to the martial classes. I like the idea of different power sources playing a little differently, especially if it makes things easier for some players (I also want to balance all of the attack powers so they're more even trades with each other; I'm looking at you barbarian, monk, and controllers ...).

Mellored, what is the Cavalier lacking compared to the Paladin? One of my players didn't like the original paladin, but he is liking the Cavalier a lot.

As for the Knight vs. Fighter, I think the Weapon Master was too sticky, and I'm glad to see another option. 

Poe's Law is alive and well.

Wait, hu? The cavalier has a defender aura, just like the knight, and he deals auto damage when an enemy attacks or shifts. He even gets an encounter to take damage for an ally. The knight has the same defender aura and has an attack when the enemy attacks or shifts (with miss damage, but that won't work on a minion, right?). He has the ability to slow with one stance, which makes them sticky so long as they remain in that stance. Heck, the Paladin's Smite dazes and the Fighter's Power Strike only does extra damage, and daze is a fairly sticky effect.

I'm not seeing what's missing here, I'm really not. I'd like to know, because if I'm overlooking something I'd like to patch it.

And what are you talking about "various corrections" to bring the paladin to functionality? Divine Sanction? Are all paladins required to spam divine sanction as their at-will to be "functional"?

Groups that have defenders that are less sticky than the weaponmaster or warden have to opperate differently. The new paladin has easier marks than the old paladin, so I'm failing to see how they are so awful. 

Poe's Law is alive and well.

Remind me again, which book is the Weapon Master in?
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Remind me again, which book is the Weapon Master in?



The PHB.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
The Cavalier lacks Lay on Hands, but does get a reasonable analogue in Righteous Shield.  Otherwise, yeah.

t~
In addition to Tony's excellent analysis, it should also be noted that that balance point changes slightly as levels increase.  With increasing levels, non-BA-spam classes get more and more encounters and dailies.  This means that the time that they spend using at-wills drops, and is a major reason why aside from some rather narrow optimization paths (charge op) the BA-only classes tend to start really strong, but fall behind later.

Now, this is only really relevant to strikers.  For the other classes, there are other factors to consider and it isn't so straightforward as a simple math exercise.  Furthermore, most of those classes aren't actually BA spammers.  Mage, Warpriest, Sentinel and even Cavalier have daily powers, and so are vastly closer to the AEDU structure if not identical to it (Mage, Warpriest).  The only outliers are the Knight and the Hunter.  I don't have enough experience with the Knight to comment on their longterm performance relative to Weaponmasters, though given the support available to each specific fighting style I'd be surprised if the Knights held up as well as the typical Weaponmaster builds.  For the Hunter, they're really not good controllers longterm compared to...well pretty much anything else. 

There are some daily-using Essentials strikers like the Hexblade and Blackguard, and they remain competitive with the rest of the daily-using strikers.  And by competitive, I mean on par with monk, warlock, sorcerer, etc. rather than on par with top-tier rangers. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I like the idea of different power sources playing a little differently, especially if it makes things easier for some players

They were quite different in the PH1.  Martial exploits exclusively used weapons to attack (predominantly AC, and typically ranged or melee, with close being unusual and area unheard of) and inflict normal damage, and weapon choice varied attack and damage, crit, and other little things, including activating custom riders on some powers, and opening up feat trees.   Arcane spells almost exclusively used implements (virtually never attack AC), and varying implements made only a very small difference, while powers varied greatly in targeting, damage type, and other keywords, with feat trees based more on keywords than implements.  Divine prayers split the difference between weapons and implements (and split attack stats, to match), but the holy symbol implement was used a little differently than arcane implements, and attacks tended toward radiant damage.  Along with class features, the sources played quite differently, indeed.

Over time, we've gotten superior implements, unified attack stats for implement/weapon classes, melee training, implement feat-trees, and so forth have lessened those differences, a little.  Though the greater breadth of keywords and attack types (and, in the case of controller, sheer power) among non-martial powers remains.

(I also want to balance all of the attack powers so they're more even trades with each other; I'm looking at you barbarian, monk, and controllers ...).

A good idea.  One, however, that requires keeping classes in the AEDU structure to be viable.  You really /can't/ adquately create an 'even trade' between encounter or at-will & daily.  Utilities try, but it's easy to note how a daily utility is so much more desireable when a 'short' (few encounter) day is expected - it's not much of a problem, since utilities represent a small fraction of character power compared to attacks and features.

Balancing controller powers is a particularly difficult task, since they provide so much role support.  You'd have to devise strong class features to make up for the loss.


As for the Knight vs. Fighter, I think the Weapon Master was too sticky, and I'm glad to see another option. 

The Fighter only marked enemies it attacked.  Many monsters, especially the skirmishers that you'd think would make sense for a defender to try to slow down, are blessed with bizarre little movement powers that allow them to move an arbitrary number of squares w/o provoking.  Since they don't provoke, no Combat Superiority.  Since they're /move/ not /shift/ no Combat Challenge attack.  Since they're moving squares rather than some derivative of their speed, slow, doesn't even slow them down.  There's no small number of such teflon monsters to foil defender stickiness, if that's what you want.  The Knight's stickiness is only subtly different.  Walking away from a Knight is no different than walking away from any other character - except that he might push or slow or power attack you (with riders at higher level).  That's not as consistent as Combat Superiority's movement-ending, but more broadly aplicable, and potentially quite a deterent.  The Knight's his mark-punishment, OTOH, can't be 'burned off' like the Fighter's immediate combat challenge attack, and said mark-punishment damages on a miss, in addition to stance and the power attack options.  FWIW. 

Both the Fighter's and Knight's mark-punishment and stickiness can be willfully circumvented by the DM, with close phrasing of monster abilities, tactics, and metagamed initiative actions.  The Knight's is probably easier.

 

 

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It's also worth noting that power sources and roles are connected, as well.  Classes of a particular power source tend to have a common secondary role.  Arcane classes, for example, tend to be controller-secondary, except for the Wizard which is More Controller than most.  Martial classes, for example, tend to be striker-secondary except for the Ranger and Rogue which are More Striker than most.  Divine classes tend to be leader-as-healer-secondary with the cleric as More Leader-As-Healer than most.  Primal classes tend to be defender secondary with the Warden as More Defender than most.  Psionic is really the only power source without a unifying role-theme behind it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Not at all. Righteous Shield is not analogous to Lay On Hands, because Lay On Hands lets you survive the enormous amount of heat you'll draw as an effective multi-marker. Righteous Shield is vaguely analogous to, but much worse than, Price of Cowardice.

Ah, right.  I was thinking of the "heal others" use of Lay on Hands, and overlooking the "heal yourself" option.

t~

How much would errata that makes every feat, item, ect. that buffs Divine Challenge/Divine Sanction also buff Righteous Radiance, including Mighty Challenge, go towards fixing the Cavalier?
...whatever
The knight is not as good as the weaponmaster, it's just not so far below it as to cause problems.

Disagree.

OA punishment > interupt punishment.
"Mark" adjacent > mark those you attack.
+Str on miss < +Wis to hit.  (though OA's can be buffed plenty of other ways).
Plus all the MBA options (such as being Con primary, bonus damage, and stances).

Now, if your buiding a defender-as-striker, then yea, weaponmaster is better (read, rain of blows).  But for straight sword-and-board "stay here and fight me" defender, knights win (if not by alot).

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

not to disparage the knight too much, but the knight's lack of bonuses to standard OAs and 'mark' that fades as soon as the enemy is not adjacent means the enemy's best way of dealing with the knight if he wants to engage another PC is to simply walk away. There's no Str damage on a miss in that case, and the knight lacks the weaponmaster's +wis and ability to stop movement. Further, the weaponmaster can at least threaten to double-dip with OA + II punishment in cases such as against a ranged attacker. The knight can recover some stickiness with some of their stances though, particularly hold the line can make a successful OA (or preemptive hit in the turn before) prevent the target from moving to its desired location.
Another point of comparison is that multiple markers can trade off as desired easily, keeping enemies pushed to attack the least favorable target or face punishment, while multiple defender auras give the enemies free choice of which defender to attack. On the plus side though, someone surrounded by defender auras faces multiple stacking punishments for trying to shift or attack a squishie. 
The "move away and be unmarked" is balanced by "move adjacent and be marked".  Enemy's could stand next to a weaponmaster, and attack an ally without any issue.  Also knights/monsters can be moved around by leaders/controllers to facilitate multi-marking.

+Wis is a win for weaponmasters (though forcing a secondary stat is less good).  No question on that one.  But it's easy to get super-accurate MBA's, and/or otherwise buff your OA's without it.  Toss in a prone, and you're more sticky then a fighter (though with more resources spent).

Yes, weaponmasters play's better with other mark-swaping defenders.  But knights work better with MBA granting leaders.  So it's a wash there.

And that still leaves the knight a win with multi-marking, and stronger punishment.

Again, it's close, but i still give the edge to the knight.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

not to disparage the knight too much, but the knight's lack of bonuses to standard OAs and 'mark' that fades as soon as the enemy is not adjacent means the enemy's best way of dealing with the knight if he wants to engage another PC is to simply walk away. There's no Str damage on a miss in that case, and the knight lacks the weaponmaster's +wis and ability to stop movement.

But, the OA does benefit from the Knight's current stance - it's like getting HBO for free.  And, he could stack Power Attack, and any weapon specialization on top of that.

 

 

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not to disparage the knight too much, but the knight's lack of bonuses to standard OAs and 'mark' that fades as soon as the enemy is not adjacent means the enemy's best way of dealing with the knight if he wants to engage another PC is to simply walk away. There's no Str damage on a miss in that case, and the knight lacks the weaponmaster's +wis and ability to stop movement.

But, the OA does benefit from the Knight's current stance - it's like getting HBO for free.  And, he could stack Power Attack, and any weapon specialization on top of that.




I will grant you the stance thing, which is applicable to the aura punishment as well. Other MBA boosts are available to the Weaponmaster as well, who is somewhat inclined to take them for OA+CC reasons.

Agree with Erachima, the benefit of things becoming subject to aura from going up to knight is not as easy to use to your advantage as the fact they can just walk out of your aura will be used against you. 

Still, they are pretty solid, and this is mostly splitting hairs. Neither fighter is a poor choice for defendering.   
The "move away and be unmarked" is balanced by "move adjacent and be marked".

Not in the slightest. The supposed benefit doesn't exist because enemies don't voluntarily rush the defender

Who said anything about voluntarily?

controllers can move enemies
leaders can move knights

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Controllers and leaders can also take better abilities instead, rather than trying to patch up the guy who decided to play a half-character.

Enchanter builds are very good at forced movement, so it wouldn't be a terribly sub-optimal thing to play, and clustering enemies around the Knight or Cavalier wouldn't be a terrible thing to do with it.  Clustering them in your Phantom Chasm might be better, but you only get it 1/day, while the Knight or Cavalier are available until they run out of hps/surges.

 

 

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I'm not saying it won't work (interparty synergy is a good thing), but mellored is completely overlooking the opportunity costs, not to mention the problems involved when you introduce characters who are not self-sufficiently functional.

Agreed.  By the same token as pushing enemies into a Knight's Aura, a Warlord or Shaman can grant a Fighter extra attacks, each of which mark.

 

 

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I'm not saying it won't work (interparty synergy is a good thing), but mellored is completely overlooking the opportunity costs, not to mention the problems involved when you introduce characters who are not self-sufficiently functional. Knights can be good, but they will never be better than properly built Weaponmasters.

Agreed.  By the same token as pushing enemies into a Knight's Aura, a Warlord or Shaman can grant a Fighter extra attacks, each of which mark.

Knights get bonus damage on MBA's, stances, and get more benifit from MBA specific stuff.

And unless you have a reach fighter, the knight will already have it "marked".

Knights can be good, but they will never be better than properly built Weaponmasters.

Disagree.  A properly build knight (needs to prones on OA) is better then a properly built weapon master.  (as a defender, striker's are another matter). 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm not saying it won't work (interparty synergy is a good thing), but mellored is completely overlooking the opportunity costs, not to mention the problems involved when you introduce characters who are not self-sufficiently functional.

Agreed.  By the same token as pushing enemies into a Knight's Aura, a Warlord or Shaman can grant a Fighter extra attacks, each of which mark.

And unless you have a reach fighter, the knight will already have it "marked".

If the weakness of the Knight's Aura (easy to walk away from) is made up for by the possibility of a controller forcing enemies adjacent to establish the psuedo-mark when the same wouldn't be said for the fighter, then the weakness of the Fighter's Combat Challenge (need to attack to establish the mark), can likewise be mitigated by the possibility of a leader giving it extra attacks to establish more marks.   Sure, the Knight's Aura is automatic, but the Fighter's mark is harder to walk away from (and persistent, for a -2, even if you do).

 

 

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Overall, Knights are a solid third or fourth place in the defender game.

Controllers and leaders can also take better abilities instead, rather than trying to patch up the guy who decided to play a half-character.

The defender game must be pretty easy if 3rd or 4th place can be played by half a character




With the Knight aura, it isn't completely impossible to force enemies to move into it. A game I ran that ended 2 months ago featured a Knight, and he got really good at moving himself into chokepoints in the terrain, and the other PCs tended to be adjacent or within 1 square of him when they didn't fear area attacks. A lot of the time, enemies didn't have much choice other than to move into the aura.
...whatever

My rating of them at 3rd or 4th is assuming you take advantage of party synergy.



If Knights are 4th, I'm assuming the top 3 are Fighter, Paladin, and Battlemind. In my experience, particularly in light of the fact that I play two sessions of RPGA per week with a large assortment of random people, people don't generally play at CharOp levels of powergaming. Hell, I've never seen anyone optimize besides what I do with my own characters, and my builds have rightly been called mediocre by CharOp standards.

When you move away from CharOp levels of gaming, you see that Fighter, Paladin, and Battlemind are only better than the Knight if built well and play to their strengths. Fighters have more raw power than any other Defender class, Paladins can punish multiple enemies at range and go deep into the healer role(including healing themselves), and Battleminds can be as mobile as any Striker and I can't think of a class that is stronger on other people's turns. I can't count the amount of Defenders I've seen fail to live up to basic optimization standards. When you factor in how people actually play in real life, the so-called "failings" of the Knight seem smaller if they exist at all.
...whatever

My rating of them at 3rd or 4th is assuming you take advantage of party synergy.

If Knights are 4th, I'm assuming the top 3 are Fighter, Paladin, and Battlemind. In my experience, particularly in light of the fact that I play two sessions of RPGA per week with a large assortment of random people, people don't generally play at CharOp levels of powergaming. Hell, I've never seen anyone optimize besides what I do with my own characters, and my builds have rightly been called mediocre by CharOp standards.

CharOp is a whole 'nuther world, yes.  

I am curious what poor benighted (npi) defender takes the 5th place slot, though...

 

 

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Based on experience(and not including the Berserker because of it)

1. Fighter
2. Paladin
3-4. Knight and Battlemind(Knight ahead in casual game, Battlemind better in optimized game)
5. Warden
6. Swordmage
7. Cavalier

Hazarding a guess, I'd expect Berserker to fall on either side of Warden.
...whatever
Top
1 Weaponmaster

Near Top (These are all good, but builds and party makeup determine where they fall on the list)
2 Paladin
3 Warden
4 Battlemind
5 Knight
6 Shielding Swordmage

Near bottom (Not bad as second defender)
7 Assault Swordmage

Bottom (would rather have a barbarian, blackguard, cleric, runepriest, monk, or avenger trying to defend)
8 Cavalier
9 Ensnaring Swordmage

Oddly, based on my own experience, I'd say that for pure defender the Warden beats the Fighter.

The catch being that it's usually good to have a bit of a striker or leader - or even a more-general controller - in a defender, and the Warden seems to be lacking in that regard.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Experience and party synergy will change any of those rankings. Not all Fighters are created equally since there are about 6 builds (not including the Knight and Slayer). Is the Tempest Fighter really better than the Paladin?

Our table experience would easily rank the Shielding Swordmage and several Battlemind, Swordmage, and Paladin hybrids well above any Warden or Knight and several specific Fighter, Paladin, and Battlemind builds. But that's our experience in conjunction with other classes and builds on the table. Your milage may vary.

For instance none of us like the Knight. Sure it does what it needs to do, and you can play around with it's awkward stickiness, but using the same powers for your entire career gets boring real quick. That may also be because we simply prefer the AEDU structure that adds versatility and uniqueness to your own build and allows you to be flexible with any party. We find that Knights (and to a certain extent some other Fighter builds, Wardens, and Cavaliers) to simply be boring door stops. But that's just our experience, yours may be completely different.
My list was an estimate.  I rank weaponmasters top overall, but personally would rather play a warden or paladin most of the time as primary defender.  Weaponmasters are easy to make consistently very effective in almost any party and they simply outstrip other defenders in support.

If I was second defender I would rather play a chaladin or a hybrid swordmage or even a battlemind and I don't much likepower points.  Maybe a berserker too, but I haven't looked at the class in depth yet or seen it in play
In optimized play battleminds take top.  Brutal Barrage + Brilliant Recovery + Lightning Rush = Win.

There's also an at-will daze, which can be exploited too.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

This is an interesting sidetrack, so I'll go into detail here:

1. Fighter(Weaponmaster)--It has a strong mark/punishment as Fighters can be built for Striker-level damage and add additional effects to their punishments, excels as a secondary damage dealer, and has a ridiculous amount of support. Manages multiple enemies well since it marks what it attacks. Its a little squishy compared to the other Defenders, but in my experience Defense is overrated. Overall, its versatility as a damage dealer(Fighter excels at this without having to sacrifice anything), stickiness(punishing shifts and negativing movement on an OA) and the fact that it just has more good powers than any other Defender put it at #1.

2. Paladin--Paladins can mark and punish multple enemies at range, and are the only Defenders who can do this. They are the best non-Leader healers in 4E, nobody comes remotely close, and they can heal themselves. The Paladin's bag of tricks, while not as deep as the Fighter, is more varied. I knock them down a peg because the Fighter is better at being multiple things at once.

3. Battlemind--The main strengths of the Battlemind are that they are the most mobile Defender(more than the Swordmage), and they have the best immediate action attacks in the entire game. They also have a cheesy trick at Paragon that lets them deal stupid damage. Their mark is weak, but they are very sticky. I rank them #3 because they don't handle multiple enemies as well as other Defenders, and they don't hold a position well since a lot of their stickiness involves them chasing enemies that move away.

4. Knight--Their aura and punishment is the best in the game. Punishing as an opportunity action is that good, the complaint about forced movement is overblown. Being a MBA spamming class, they lose out on the versatility of the other Defenders, but Knights can use cheesy CharOp tricks to do things like deal Striker damage or prone with every hit.

5. Warden--Warden was the first class to mark and manage multiple enemies by default(Fighters and Paladins need to be built special to do this). Their mark/punishment isn't as upgradeable as other classes, and Paladins/Fighters/Swordmages built to mark multiple enemies will do it better. Wardens are also the least sticky Defender, aside from Paladins and Swordmages that punish at range and don't care about being sticky. Wardens are the only Defenders that have no default answer for shift+charge. That being said, they have powers that improve their stickiness, and they are really good powers. Wardens are tough, but I find defense overrated. Wardens work, but they have to put a lot more effort into it than the above and the end result is less spectacular.

6. Swordmage--Ensnaring and Assault Swordmages are mediocre, but even by itself I rank the Shielding Swordmage 6th. Its most impressive feature is that its the only Defender that can ignore the enemy(s) it marks, allowing the Swordmage to run away from its Aegis target and make the enemy target the Swordmage's allies. The Shielding Aegis is strong enough to make this tactic work. Swordmages also tend to get ridiculous high AC without even trying, and can have the highest AC among all Defenders without breaking a sweat. These things being said, Swordmages have the worst selection of powers among Defenders who select powers, and despite their neat tricks the other Defenders do the job better.

7. Cavalier--Its mark really isn't intimidating at all. Its decent at low levels, but by late heroic enemies can probably completely ignore it.


...whatever
So you're saying the large part of the cavalier's weakness is the lower damage of the mark attack at higher levels?

Poe's Law is alive and well.

So you're saying the large part of the cavalier's weakness is the lower damage of the mark attack at higher levels?



The Cavalier's big problem is that his aura and punishment can't be improved. The Knight or Berserker, who also have Defender Aura, punish with a Melee Basic Attack, and there is a lot you can do to make a MBA more effective. You can easily add slow, prone, or enough damage to persuade enemies not to violate it. Paladins have a similar autodamage mark, but like the Knight and Berserker with their MBA, Paladins can improve the damage and add control/sticky effects to it. Paladins also have big area Divine Sanction effects and can punish at range and while stunned/dazed/ect.

As monster HP increases, the Cavalier's mark gets lets scary and as stated above, nothing can be done to improve it. A monster can trigger the punishment by shifting, eat the minor damage, get out of the aura and make attacks against allies without a -2 penalty.
...whatever
Remind me again, which book is the Weapon Master in?



The PHB.




*Scratches head...* Only saw the basic classes there. Like the Rogue, Wizard, the new Warden, Fighter and so on.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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