C-C-C-CombO !!! (Devil's Play in Standard)

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So at FNM a guy says in passing "I want to use Past in Flames in Standard" and I was like "Phryrexian Mana" and he was like "???" And I was like "Burning Vengeance with all the 1 mana cards" so obviously we need self-mill, and then someone else said Rage Extractor and that's the Basic Idea. Armored Scab's, Metamorphs to copy them or extractor, Dream twist, etc. Get ahead on life-total then Devil's play for the win.

Not sure if this would be any better than Selective Memory+Treasure Hunt+Thought Gorger from standards past but it's a novel idea so I thought I'd share.
Nosir, you're gonna get buggered savagely by anything aggro.
not if he sometimes actually plays some of this low cost burn.. not everything needs to be Phyrexain.

gut shot, shock, galvanic blast, giestflame

add shrine of burning rage and it will work just like a RDW deck but with very few creatures.

terrezets gambit a must.
I don't know if the deck would have room for Shrine, or even rage extractor. I'd realy only want to spend mana on self-mill and comboing out. Top of the head list goes U/R/g like...



...ish   

LoL. Not sure if something like this list is even worth the time to goldfish but I'd realy want to try for the One Bigh Turn combo win rather than a RDW list with a trick up it's sleeve.
The pro and semi-pro players at my FNM (also a very competitive meta) vehemently insist that Noxious Revival is completely unplayable.  Armored Skaab is terribad.  To the max.  I wouldn't ever consider it outside of a U/B deck in limited.  You'll want Slagstorm, too.  Dream Twist is also not good outside of a dedicated mill deck, and should never be pointed at yourself.  And if you're going the Burning Vengeance route, your deck will always lose in the mirror to a deck with Snapcaster Mage.  Not trying to tear your dreams apart, but Grixis has been shown to be the colour combination needed for Burning Vengeance, and the mana base is expensive as hell, let alone the Snapcasters.  Would also need Forbidden Alchemy.
Yea, I know all this. The list should probably be in the casual forum. I just think it would be hillarios pull it off just once.


Also, I watched that SCG replay Spagnolo vs Longo from Baltimore and thought, as I threw together this list, that Noxious Revival might be an option for re-buying BV in the face of Enchantment removal or counterspells. Having multiple of the enchantment in play REALY makes the deck hum.


Back to the matter at hand, though. I guess Marrow Shards would be better here, and by here I mean the kitchen table.
The pro and semi-pro players at my FNM (also a very competitive meta) vehemently insist that Noxious Revival is completely unplayable.



I'd stand by that comment. I didn't do well at States overall, but my Noxious Revivials were almost always handy to have around, serving double duty by reusing threats and letting game winning spells resolve through Snapcaster'd Mana Leaks.

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71235715 wrote:
The pro and semi-pro players at my FNM (also a very competitive meta) vehemently insist that Noxious Revival is completely unplayable.



Far from unplayable, its just most decks do not need it. Any deck I have made that run Noxious have abused it grossly due to its sheer power. Most people overlook it though regardless of it being a great card.

Noxious basiclly reads.

Noxious Revival (0cc)

Get the answer you need or whatever piece of the puzzle required for you to win the game EOT.

You could say that it takes your draw away, but whats wrong with playing a removal spell or a creature like 5 times :D
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The pro and semi-pro players at my FNM (also a very competitive meta) vehemently insist that Noxious Revival is completely unplayable.



Far from unplayable, its just most decks do not need it. Any deck I have made that run Noxious have abused it grossly due to its sheer power. Most people overlook it though regardless of it being a great card.

Noxious basiclly reads.

Noxious Revival (0cc)

Get the answer you need or whatever piece of the puzzle required for you to win the game EOT.

You could say that it takes your draw away, but whats wrong with playing a removal spell or a creature like 5 times :D


since apparently i'm one of these "semi-pro players", i'll just say that i think the card is absolutely terrible in anything other than a dedicated combo deck that is able to actually benefit from revival.  otherwise, noxious revival is simply card disadvantage and i can see no real advantage to trying to run this over simply running more "good" cards in your deck.

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Weren't Kyle, Forrest, Johnny et al joining in the chorus of derision of the card?  Not that you aren't a highly skilled player, yourself.
Weren't Kyle, Forrest, Johnny et al joining in the chorus of derision of the card?  Not that you aren't a highly skilled player, yourself.


they were really only half engaged in the conversation

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Yeah, that sounds like them.
I think it's an excellent card that has promise, but there isn't a deck in the format right now that can use it.
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I think it's an excellent card that has promise, but there isn't a combo deck in the format right now that can use it.


Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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I think it's an excellent card that has promise, but there isn't a combo deck in the format right now that can use it.







In all seriousness though, I disagree. It does not need a combo deck to be good, and the only combo that would work with Noxious is something that lets you draw. Or I guess dumping pieces into the GY and getting it back? Its a good playable card, its just people do not see its value at the moment, most likely due to the lack of a deck to house it in.
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i can't image anything you'd want to get back that has been milled that would cost you your draw step, unless it was something that would somehow outright win the game (aka, combo).

sorry, don't see the value in the card.

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i can't image anything you'd want to get back that has been milled that would cost you your draw step, unless it was something that would somehow outright win the game (aka, combo).

sorry, don't see the value in the card.




Because I would only play it in a deck that I would mill myself in? I use it as a way to reuse fuel, or bring back removal or to just gain an edge.

Speaking of self-mill

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i can't image anything you'd want to get back that has been milled that would cost you your draw step, unless it was something that would somehow outright win the game (aka, combo).

sorry, don't see the value in the card.




Because I would only play it in a deck that I would mill myself in? I use it as a way to reuse fuel, or bring back removal or to just gain an edge.



At -2 CA, it's not worth it, regardless. Only a combo deck can recover that kind of penalty, and they do it by winning outright.
i can't image anything you'd want to get back that has been milled that would cost you your draw step, unless it was something that would somehow outright win the game (aka, combo).

sorry, don't see the value in the card.




Because I would only play it in a deck that I would mill myself in? I use it as a way to reuse fuel, or bring back removal or to just gain an edge.



At -2 CA, it's not worth it, regardless. Only a combo deck can recover that kind of penalty, and they do it by winning outright.



Play it in the right deck and the -2 does not matter. In the last deck I developed I ran that with Grim Discovery (I miss you so much.), and it worked perfectly, but that is because I set it up so the pros always outweighed the cons.


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There is no deck other than a combo deck that can voluntarily take -2 card advantage as something they do without being forced. The only way any deck in history recoups that kind of self-inflicted damage is by winning because of it. And that means a combo deck almost exclusively.
There is no deck other than a combo deck that can voluntarily take -2 card advantage as something they do without being forced. The only way any deck in history recoups that kind of self-inflicted damage is by winning because of it. And that means a combo deck almost exclusively.



This is almsot true, but I'd argue Turbofog can also get away with it. I ran Noxious Revival in a pre-INN turbofog deck and it worked out well.

Not enough recurring draw in Standard right now though, so it's a non-issue.
There is no deck other than a combo deck that can voluntarily take -2 card advantage as something they do without being forced. The only way any deck in history recoups that kind of self-inflicted damage is by winning because of it. And that means a combo deck almost exclusively.



This is almsot true, but I'd argue Turbofog can also get away with it. I ran Noxious Revival in a pre-INN turbofog deck and it worked out well.

Not enough recurring draw in Standard right now though, so it's a non-issue.


depends what you revival for, because it could be argued as a "combo" deck.  otherwise, it seems bad still.

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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There is no deck other than a combo deck that can voluntarily take -2 card advantage as something they do without being forced. The only way any deck in history recoups that kind of self-inflicted damage is by winning because of it. And that means a combo deck almost exclusively.



Well I will start telling anyone that I play that after I use Noxious Revival, that they should win because I have hampered myself with -2 card advantage.


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Don't be disingenuous. I could Doom Blade my own creature and still win. It does not mean I should be doing it, and I will lose more than not doing it.
Well I will start telling anyone that I play that after I use Noxious Revival, that they should win because I have hampered myself with -2 card advantage.



Well, really only -1, since you are spending 1 card to improve your next draw.  And that sort of card has seen plenty of play in Magic's history, with things like Vampiric Tutor.  Though, like the vamp tutor, those sort of cards usually grab stuff from the library, giving them a much larger card selection to dig from than the GY, allowing for toolboxing and such and not requiring additional support to get cards into the library to have good targets.  And if you are running a bunch of mill primarily for Revival, well, then you are going into a realm of -2 CA or worse.

Anyway, in most every deck, Revival doesn't have much of a home.  There's often a better card you could be running that does what you usually cast the revival for, so you could just have drawn that instead of getting the -1 CA.
I'm pretty floored that you just compared Noxious Revival to Vampiric Tutor. That said there is definitely a sliding scale in which one card is better than the other as game state progresses.

Early Game------------------------------- Mid Game ----------------------------------- Late Game
Vamp Tutor                                          Either                                                   Revival 

I'm still floored here. 

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I'm pretty floored that you just compared Noxious Revival to Vampiric Tutor. That said there is definitely a sliding scale in which one card is better than the other as game state progresses.

Early Game------------------------------- Mid Game ----------------------------------- Late Game
Vamp Tutor                                          Either                                                   Revival 

I'm still floored here. 



Oh, I didn't say they were equal in power.  Matter of fact, I said the exact opposite, that searching your library for a card provides a lot more cards to pick from, than from the graveyard.  What I did say is that -1 CA in exchange for card quality isn't necessarily bad, and provided a nice little example that is considered quite good to demonstrate just that.

Which means that if you have a deck that mills itself a bit for good reasons, as part of its strategy other than just for Revival, playing a revival or two in it isn't that bad.  If one wanted to build a Splinterfright deck or something, for example (and I'm not in any way saying such a deck would be a tournament competitive deck).  And I haven't built a deck yet myself that wants the card.  The closest I've come is contemplating a U/G mill deck using Jace 3.0 with the idea to revive the Jace, since he functions as mill 10 + pseudo-fog, but that deck didn't even make it past the generate a potential card list stage.

Oh, and I'd say even late game, Vamp Tutor is likely to be as good as Revival, unless you really chew through your library.



Well I will start telling anyone that I play that after I use Noxious Revival, that they should win because I have hampered myself with -2 card advantage.



Well, really only -1, since you are spending 1 card to improve your next draw.  And that sort of card has seen plenty of play in Magic's history, with things like Vampiric Tutor.  Though, like the vamp tutor, those sort of cards usually grab stuff from the library, giving them a much larger card selection to dig from than the GY, allowing for toolboxing and such and not requiring additional support to get cards into the library to have good targets.  And if you are running a bunch of mill primarily for Revival, well, then you are going into a realm of -2 CA or worse.

Anyway, in most every deck, Revival doesn't have much of a home.  There's often a better card you could be running that does what you usually cast the revival for, so you could just have drawn that instead of getting the -1 CA.



Second person to say you need to mill yourself for Revival. You do not need to go out of your way to make Revival work.

As Niche said Revival gets better as the game progresses and if you play good quality cards it becomes a great tool. Also gives you flexibility in plays, and letting your opponent fall into traps. Its a very flexible and powerful card. If you simply look at it as Card Advantage then of course you will not see the value of it.

Also I apologize, I was planning on putting a video in each of my responses but I was a little busy last time so Ill do a twofer this time. Enjoy.






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Let me preface this by saying my record in standard has been pretty abysmal.  That said, no one has mentioned using it to put a card on top of an opponent's deck.  That could result in a waste of a turn for them.  Also it works well with Cerebral Eruption and Mindshrieker.