Microsoft may be killing Silverlight... Will CB be killed as a result?

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Original Article: www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-there-...

Several of my customer and partner contacts have told me they have heard from their own Microsoft sources over the past couple of weeks that Silverlight 5 is the last version of Silverlight that Microsoft will release. They said they are unsure whether there will be any service packs for it, and they are also not clear on how long Silverlight 5 will be supported by Microsoft.

(There’s no end date yet on Microsoft’s lifecycle page for free support for Silverlightfor Silverlight 4. According to the page, Microsoft must give developers and customers a year heads-up before ending support for any given Silverlight version. Free support for Silverlight 3 ended in April 2011.)

So, we're maybe a year or so from losing silverlight altogether. Headlines today are also that Adobe is killing Flash, and working on developing HTML5 tools. Technology is changing, but where will that leave us?


Is WotC going to start work on a new CB platform? Could we see something that would be developed for desktop installation again? Or just something that works in a way to make character sheets portable again (I've never gotten the CB to print-to-pdf with proper margins, for example)?


Does anyone have a wishlist of things they'd like to see in a silverlight-free CB? We could stat submitting demands to the WotC developers well in advance. That way, when MS does slowly choke silverlight to death, we'll all be ready to transition over to a new, supported (universal?) platform for our characters.


58286228 wrote:
As a DM, I find it easier to just punish the players no matter what they pick, as I assume they will pick stuff that is broken. I mean, fight after fight they kill all the monsters without getting killed themselves! What sort of a game is this, anyway?

 

An insightful observation about the nature of 4e, and why it hasn't succeeded as well as other editions. (from the DDN General Discussions, 2014-05-07)

Rundell wrote:

   

Emerikol wrote:

       

Foxface wrote:

        4e was the "modern" D&D, right?  The one that had design notes that drew from more modern games, and generally appealed to those who preferred the design priorities of modern games.  I'm only speculating, but I'd hazard a guess that those same 4e players are the ones running the wide gamut of other games at Origins.

       
        D&D 4e players are pretty much by definition the players who didn't mind, and often embraced, D&D being "different".  That willingness to embrace the different might also mean they are less attached to 4e itself, and are willing to go elsewhere.

    This is a brilliant insight.  I was thinking along those lines myself.  

 

    There are so many tiny indie games that if you added them all together they would definitely rival Pathfinder.   If there were a dominant game for those people it would do better but there is no dominant game.  Until 4e, the indie people were ignored by the makers of D&D.

 

Yep. 4E was embraced by the 'system matters' crowd who love analyzing and innovating systems. That crowd had turned its back on D&D as a clunky anachronism. But with 4E, their design values were embraced and validated. 4E was D&D for system-wonks. And with support for 4E pulled, the system-wonks have moved on to other systems. The tropes and traditions of D&D never had much appeal for them anyway. Now there are other systems to learn and study. It's like boardgamegeeks - always a new system on the horizon. Why play an ancient games that's seven years old?

 

Of course, not all people who play and enjoy 4E fit that mould. I'm running a 4E campaign right now, and my long-time D&D players are enjoying it fine. But with the system-wonks decamping, the 4E players-base lost the wind in its sails.

Original Article: www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/will-there-...

Several of my customer and partner contacts have told me they have heard from their own Microsoft sources over the past couple of weeks that Silverlight 5 is the last version of Silverlight that Microsoft will release. They said they are unsure whether there will be any service packs for it, and they are also not clear on how long Silverlight 5 will be supported by Microsoft.

(There’s no end date yet on Microsoft’s lifecycle page for free support for Silverlightfor Silverlight 4. According to the page, Microsoft must give developers and customers a year heads-up before ending support for any given Silverlight version. Free support for Silverlight 3 ended in April 2011.)

So, we're maybe a year or so from losing silverlight altogether. Headlines today are also that Adobe is killing Flash, and working on developing HTML5 tools. Technology is changing, but where will that leave us?


Is WotC going to start work on a new CB platform? Could we see something that would be developed for desktop installation again? Or just something that works in a way to make character sheets portable again (I've never gotten the CB to print-to-pdf with proper margins, for example)?


Does anyone have a wishlist of things they'd like to see in a silverlight-free CB? We could stat submitting demands to the WotC developers well in advance. That way, when MS does slowly choke silverlight to death, we'll all be ready to transition over to a new, supported (universal?) platform for our characters.





Sounds like a perfect time for Wizards to get the CB ready for 5th edition.
So, we're maybe a year or so from losing silverlight altogether.

I would amend your claim to be a bit more "accurate" in its out of context set-up:

So, maybe we're maybe at least a year or so from possibly losing additonal development of silverlight altogether.

As long as the CB developers don't try to make it work on an undeveloped Silverlight 6, it will work forever on the version they build it with.

This doesn't mean I object to seeing a non-Silverlight CB. My wish list is independent of Microsoft's [possible lack of] support or development of future Silverlight releases.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
I honestly was incredibly surprised that they built it in Silverlight to begin with. When will HTML5 be worth using? (I have no clue what I'm talking about, I'm sure)
I've seen the first games appear in HTML5 already. It actually seems to be quite well supported and functional.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Honestly, this makes me more interested in the possibility of what will happen to Facebook apps (via the comment about Flash dying) more than the Online CB.

Also, Xun, do you ever have a happy thought?
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]

Does anyone have a wishlist of things they'd like to see in a silverlight-free CB? We could stat submitting demands to the WotC developers well in advance. That way, when MS does slowly choke silverlight to death, we'll all be ready to transition over to a new, supported (universal?) platform for our characters.




Simple. Bring back the offline CB and continue upgrading and supporting it. That would even get me back to be a DDI member.
Honestly, this makes me more interested in the possibility of what will happen to Facebook apps (via the comment about Flash dying) more than the Online CB.

Also, Xun, do you ever have a happy thought?



I could fly to the moon if I wanted.

They really need to do something with Flash because it crashes way too much.
I am not to worrid.  If silver script dies wotc will find another way to make it work online.

I highly doubt it will go back to offline
It will be bad for a few months.

Then it will be better then it is now. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

But... my Netflix.
Honestly, this makes me more interested in the possibility of what will happen to Facebook apps (via the comment about Flash dying) more than the Online CB.

Also, Xun, do you ever have a happy thought?



I could fly to the moon if I wanted.

They really need to do something with Flash because it crashes way too much.



Indeed, and if the Flash code is buggy, the damn thing can consume a lot of RAM.

But... my Netflix.



Will almost certainly update when the tech does?
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]
Tell me about it. Facebook games are notorious for bogging down over time if you leave them open a long time.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
HTML5 is the way to go. Someone told me so. That might even allow CB to work on iOS and Android.
Honestly, this makes me more interested in the possibility of what will happen to Facebook apps (via the comment about Flash dying) more than the Online CB.

Also, Xun, do you ever have a happy thought?



He did once, and then he complained about it for three strait hours before something else caught his attention.


Does anyone have a wishlist of things they'd like to see in a silverlight-free CB? We could stat submitting demands to the WotC developers well in advance. That way, when MS does slowly choke silverlight to death, we'll all be ready to transition over to a new, supported (universal?) platform for our characters.




Simple. Bring back the offline CB and continue upgrading and supporting it. That would even get me back to be a DDI member.



Gods above, please no.

Please, just don't. In the cloud, I can access my character sheets via android apps. A full CB app could be made for tablets. I value that alone higher than any advantage that the offline CB has.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

Does anyone have a wishlist of things they'd like to see in a silverlight-free CB? We could stat submitting demands to the WotC developers well in advance. That way, when MS does slowly choke silverlight to death, we'll all be ready to transition over to a new, supported (universal?) platform for our characters.




Simple. Bring back the offline CB and continue upgrading and supporting it. That would even get me back to be a DDI member.



Gods above, please no.

Please, just don't. In the cloud, I can access my character sheets via android apps. A full CB app could be made for tablets. I value that alone higher than any advantage that the offline CB has.



I have no tablets nor any kind of smart phone, and I doubt I will have one within the next 3-5 years.  Also, I have no actual internet beyond what I can eek out.  So cloud tech and online builders are more than useless to me.  I'd much prefer offline tools.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- ) Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes
58419928 wrote:
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
69216168 wrote:
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?[/quote]

Does anyone have a wishlist of things they'd like to see in a silverlight-free CB? We could stat submitting demands to the WotC developers well in advance. That way, when MS does slowly choke silverlight to death, we'll all be ready to transition over to a new, supported (universal?) platform for our characters.




Simple. Bring back the offline CB and continue upgrading and supporting it. That would even get me back to be a DDI member.



Gods above, please no.

Please, just don't. In the cloud, I can access my character sheets via android apps. A full CB app could be made for tablets. I value that alone higher than any advantage that the offline CB has.



I have no tablets nor any kind of smart phone, and I doubt I will have one within the next 3-5 years.  Also, I have no actual internet beyond what I can eek out.  So cloud tech and online builders are more than useless to me.  I'd much prefer offline tools.




And I don't have any real problem with secondary support for people in your position. However, and I wish this didn't sound so mean, I'd rather them support the majority, who do have internet.

Hell, I'm not sure it's inaccurate to say that the majority have a smartphone of some kind at this point. Certainly it's accurate to say that the great majority has either a smartphone, tablet, laptop or e-reader. And I don't think anything would stop there being a CB app for e-readers like the nook or kindle. I'm certain that the vast majority has internet access.

Smartphones and tablets are as much the future now as home computers were when I was a kid. WoTC is best off supporting those, while still supporting the largest number of "old-timers" possible. And that pretty much means being online, at this point.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

Yeah, I'm sitting here as a Linux user praying for the death of WoTC using Silverlight. "Hey, they're putting the CB online so I can... oh. Special." I suppose since I have a virtual machine running XP to sync my iPod (big middle finger to Apple on that one, too) I could go ahead and re-subscribe, but I don't want to be using a virtual machine to make a character. Ideally I'd not be using pencil and paper anymore, but that's what I'm stuck with because I hate paying lots of money for a crappy OS.


Such is life. If Wizards were to put something up there I could use by way of a character builder, I'd re-subscribe in a heartbeat. Until then? Not worth it to me. Silverlight is what stands in my way currently.

Resident jark. Resident Minister of Education and Misinformation.
Short answer to the topic header:  no.  

If MS kills Silverlight, they will simply stop adding new features to the platform.  The existing runtime and applications built to work with it won't just magically "go away."  It'll be years before MS ceases to make the runtime available, and before that happens the devs who create apps that run on it will likely be given the opportunity via a changed license to establish their own download sites to offer the runtime on.

However, it would mean that it will be even more foolish to create further or more advanced elements using the platform (more, that is, than it was to choose it as a target platform in the first place).   So the next iteration of D&D tools, whatever form they may take, would likely be on another delivery platform. 

But back to the first point:  no, the online CB would not get shut down as a result of MS killing Silverlight.

  T  
Yeah. I did just kill your BBEG with a vorpal frisbee. Problem?
Honestly, this makes me more interested in the possibility of what will happen to Facebook apps (via the comment about Flash dying) more than the Online CB.

Also, Xun, do you ever have a happy thought?



I could fly to the moon if I wanted.

They really need to do something with Flash because it crashes way too much.

And how much longer is flash going to exist? Adobe already ditched support for mobile flash (as of the other day, interesting eh). Lets face it, all these craptastic plugin things are going the way of the Wooly Mammoth and it can't happen fast enough!

Remember, MS has a plan, and Adobe has a plan, and those plans are HTML5. In other words we'll finally get top notch HTML5 dev tools. You can do anything in the latest browsers you could ever do in flash or silverlight, and you can be sure that MS can't possibly stop SL from working, nor would they want to. It will be reasonably well supported for years to come. Heck, MS still sells a COBOL development tool set and it is even a .NET supported language. Silverlight will still work for half of forever and by then porting the thing to HTML5 won't be a big deal.
That is not dead which may eternal lie

Yeah, I'm sitting here as a Linux user praying for the death of WoTC using Silverlight. "Hey, they're putting the CB online so I can... oh. Special." I suppose since I have a virtual machine running XP to sync my iPod (big middle finger to Apple on that one, too) I could go ahead and re-subscribe, but I don't want to be using a virtual machine to make a character. Ideally I'd not be using pencil and paper anymore, but that's what I'm stuck with because I hate paying lots of money for a crappy OS.


Such is life. If Wizards were to put something up there I could use by way of a character builder, I'd re-subscribe in a heartbeat. Until then? Not worth it to me. Silverlight is what stands in my way currently.




I'm a Linux user as my main OS and I got the CB to work with Moonlight for about 2 minutes before it went down never to come back. I had to move to my other laptop and I was very disappointed with the CB, see other thread.


Honestly, this makes me more interested in the possibility of what will happen to Facebook apps (via the comment about Flash dying) more than the Online CB.

Also, Xun, do you ever have a happy thought?



I could fly to the moon if I wanted.

They really need to do something with Flash because it crashes way too much.

And how much longer is flash going to exist? Adobe already ditched support for mobile flash (as of the other day, interesting eh). Lets face it, all these craptastic plugin things are going the way of the Wooly Mammoth and it can't happen fast enough!

Remember, MS has a plan, and Adobe has a plan, and those plans are HTML5. In other words we'll finally get top notch HTML5 dev tools. You can do anything in the latest browsers you could ever do in flash or silverlight, and you can be sure that MS can't possibly stop SL from working, nor would they want to. It will be reasonably well supported for years to come. Heck, MS still sells a COBOL development tool set and it is even a .NET supported language. Silverlight will still work for half of forever and by then porting the thing to HTML5 won't be a big deal.



Java is still going strong after all these years and I can see Oracle sticking with this for a while.
Java on the web is crap. Most people avoid it as much as they can, from my experience.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Java on the web is crap. Most people avoid it as much as they can, from my experience.



Java is a part of most every piece of electronics on the planet.
Probably, but java applets on the web tend to be annoying (or really well hidden, because every time I see the java logo I know I'm in for something crap)

Off the web, it's great indeed. On it, not so much. Anything that identifies itself as a Java applet that I've worked with was crap.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Probably, but java applets on the web tend to be annoying (or really well hidden, because every time I see the java logo I know I'm in for something crap)

Off the web, it's great indeed. On it, not so much. Anything that identifies itself as a Java applet that I've worked with was crap.



Yeah, as an Enterprise Java guy I'll say that Java just never got its act together on applets (browser client stuff). They still exist, at least theoretically, and you can build them using all the modern IDEs, but nobody bothers. Java applications OTOH are quite alive. Maptool is a good one most people will know about, quite a nice app and unlike the WotC tools it runs on pretty much anything (that has a couple gigs of RAM, lol). On the server side? We run your credit cards, your stock transactions, your wire transfers, and pretty much everything else

Oddly enough Oracle seems to be going back and trying to revitalize applets. There was nothing wrong with the concept, Sun just never polished the whole thing up to a point where it was really acceptable. I have NO clue WHY they are doing that, but I guess if you HAVE to do cross-platform plugin based stuff a polished up applet would be nice. Might even have been pretty cool 5 years ago...

My guess is CB/MB will stay forever SL. MS will provide basic support for SL for the next 5-10 years. Meanwhile HTML5 dev tools will get really good, and maybe at some point WotC will discover that they want the iPad to be able to run their tools and they'll build a set of 'mobile DDI apps' that will be HTML5.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Not gonna argue about the Java applications, those work great. But indeed the web thing, that just didn't work out. And now with HTML5 coming up, it seems pointless to try and breathe new life into it rather then just embracing that.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Not gonna argue about the Java applications, those work great. But indeed the web thing, that just didn't work out. And now with HTML5 coming up, it seems pointless to try and breathe new life into it rather then just embracing that.

Yup! I agree. I obviously know Java well and wouldn't MIND being able to make a slick applet, but I can't see any reason to bother really.

I agree with Violence-Jack too. I run Linux and the only reason I even own an image of windoz to run in a VM is to test code on it, lol. I'd be 1000x happier with a non-plugin based CB/MB. Heck, even flash would be better than SL, that works fine on Linux. SL really is a bad deal. Oh well...
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Not gonna argue about the Java applications, those work great. But indeed the web thing, that just didn't work out. And now with HTML5 coming up, it seems pointless to try and breathe new life into it rather then just embracing that.

Yup! I agree. I obviously know Java well and wouldn't MIND being able to make a slick applet, but I can't see any reason to bother really.

I agree with Violence-Jack too. I run Linux and the only reason I even own an image of windoz to run in a VM is to test code on it, lol. I'd be 1000x happier with a non-plugin based CB/MB. Heck, even flash would be better than SL, that works fine on Linux. SL really is a bad deal. Oh well...



My main laptop uses Ubuntu and I keep playing around with trying to get the CB running. I had it for two minutes but I can't get it to do anything again. I tried Chrome with Moonlight and it just keeps crashing. Firefox just gives me the white screen after load up.
Not gonna argue about the Java applications, those work great. But indeed the web thing, that just didn't work out. And now with HTML5 coming up, it seems pointless to try and breathe new life into it rather then just embracing that.

Yup! I agree. I obviously know Java well and wouldn't MIND being able to make a slick applet, but I can't see any reason to bother really.

I agree with Violence-Jack too. I run Linux and the only reason I even own an image of windoz to run in a VM is to test code on it, lol. I'd be 1000x happier with a non-plugin based CB/MB. Heck, even flash would be better than SL, that works fine on Linux. SL really is a bad deal. Oh well...



My main laptop uses Ubuntu and I keep playing around with trying to get the CB running. I had it for two minutes but I can't get it to do anything again. I tried Chrome with Moonlight and it just keeps crashing. Firefox just gives me the white screen after load up.

Yeah, I gave it a quick try and I think Chrome did almost sort of try to get it running. Firefox just seemed totally confused. Moonlight is definitely FAR from supporting all the APIs needed, and a lot of them are also conforming to older versions. I think SL4 is basically a .NET 4 based implementation and last I know Mono and Moonlight were still trying to finish 3.0 and it looks like Mono is dying to boot. So I would assume at this point SL support on Linux is not ever going to happen.

I'd expect the whole SL decision was based on being able to port some of the .NET code from the original CB/MB, but from a more strategic view it was really a mistake. Just one of those decisions that probably really there was no choice about, but you'd wish they had been able to make differently. Oh well. I have a sneaking suspicion they won't use SL again...
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.
Terms you should know...
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Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.

The fact that Silverlight 5 is scheduled to be released by EOY clearly indicates it was not on its way out last year.  What happens after SL5 remains to be seen and the ZDNet article everyone is referencing does not name its sources so it's nothing but rumor at this point.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.



The cloud isn't going away. Cloud storage, hosting and other uses of the cloud are the future of network computing.

The next step is to avoid even needing an app. It would simply work in the browser window. Muuuuch better.

The cloud is exactly where a character generator aid should be.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome

I was at the Microsoft code camp last month for Windows Phone - Mango.  There are two core technologies utilized in the OS, Silverlight and XNA.  Silverlight is used for everything except 3d processes, which are done in XNA.  According to agreements between Microsoft and Nokia this OS (Silverlight and XNA) will continue for at least the next five years.  

One thing to note is that all Windows tablets utilize Windows 7 and not the Mango phone OS.  This should mean that all Windows tablets can run the character builder and other DDI Silverlight applications.

I was at the Microsoft code camp last month for Windows Phone - Mango.  There are two core technologies utilized in the OS, Silverlight and XNA.  Silverlight is used for everything except 3d processes, which are done in XNA.  According to agreements between Microsoft and Nokia this OS (Silverlight and XNA) will continue for at least the next five years.  

One thing to note is that all Windows tablets utilize Windows 7 and not the Mango phone OS.  This should mean that all Windows tablets can run the character builder and other DDI Silverlight applications.


BTW, old_dog.. I like your avatar quite. WHo is this? Ras Al Ghul?
Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.



The cloud isn't going away. Cloud storage, hosting and other uses of the cloud are the future of network computing.  



"Main Frames"
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The fact that Silverlight 5 is scheduled to be released by EOY clearly indicates it was not on its way out last year.  What happens after SL5 remains to be seen and the ZDNet article everyone is referencing does not name its sources so it's nothing but rumor at this point.

(I believe that ) what he meant was that at the time the OCB was released, similar articles indicating the status of Silverlight were also available. Silverlight 3 was, according to those articles, the last release MS would be supporting. After the announcement of the release of Silverlight 4, the same terminal-release articles appeared.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.



The cloud isn't going away. Cloud storage, hosting and other uses of the cloud are the future of network computing.  



"Main Frames"



I do think it's pretty hilarious how full circle computer tech has come.
Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.



The cloud isn't going away. Cloud storage, hosting and other uses of the cloud are the future of network computing.  



"Main Frames"



I do think it's pretty hilarious how full circle computer tech has come.



Hadn't thought of it that way, but yeah. Essentially, everyone making use of the cloud is the equivelent of a computer on a local network accessing a storage mainframe. Which is awesome, and will allow some amazing things in the future. MMOs have played with cloud hosting before. I think Guild Wars did/does some cloud stuff with bandwidth and storage. Expanding on that basic practice going forward will open up a much greater field of options in terms of the size of a game, how much information it can reasonably send an recieve, etc.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Just slipping in here to comment on the thread title.

This. Is. Old. News.

Silverlight was on it's way out when Wizards switched the CCB to the OCB. Putting any character generator aid on the cloud is an extraordinarily bad idea.



The cloud isn't going away. Cloud storage, hosting and other uses of the cloud are the future of network computing.  



"Main Frames"



I do think it's pretty hilarious how full circle computer tech has come.



Hadn't thought of it that way, but yeah. Essentially, everyone making use of the cloud is the equivelent of a computer on a local network accessing a storage mainframe. Which is awesome, and will allow some amazing things in the future. MMOs have played with cloud hosting before. I think Guild Wars did/does some cloud stuff with bandwidth and storage. Expanding on that basic practice going forward will open up a much greater field of options in terms of the size of a game, how much information it can reasonably send an recieve, etc.



Main frames feel similar which is why I brought it up, but we may actually be seeing something different since the cloud is likely to give us a form of distributed computing, which is a bigger picture. If all it is, is  a WOTC with a server managing the app you use for character creation its not a gain... really. Those ipads or some next generation will have the fire power to do it on there own... however all our standard apps may not end up bound to a single device.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think you can stop dreaming... At least for a 4th edition HTML5 client.

I have worked in both environments and creating complex software using HTML5+JS is much much more time consuming than using Silverlight.

The reason MS is going HTML5 is not because it is the stronger platform, it is done out of a business perspective. Microsoft is losing the consumer market to Apple and Google. To be a viable platform in the future they are going to need the assistance of all the app makers, and there is a lot of more developers out there who know how to create a dice roller, a fart app and a sound box using HTML5+JS than there are Silverlight developers.

That being said, I don't think it is worth the cost for wizards to create a character builder using HTML5+JS.

HTML5 is not magical... It is just an improvement carrying a few pieces that have been missing. The javascript behind it is still rotten at the core for developing complex software. Google is trying to make an effort with Dart to correct the weaknesses in the javascript language but it is still immature.

If you are lucky you might see a HTML5 client for 5th edition but don't get your hopes up. It would still be cheaper for them to develop the software using Java or Silverlight. 


The Character Initiative


Every time you abuse the system you enforce limitations.
Every time the system is limited we lose options.
Breaking an RPG is like cheating in a computer game.
As a DM you are the punkbuster of your table.
Dare to say no to abusers.
Make players build characters, not characters out of builds.




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