Looking for an Int-using leader that dose not suck, has magic powers and is NOT the Bard...

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As the title asks. I want to find a leader class that has at least one build that uses int, as either a primary or secondary stat, that is not the bard, artificer or warlord. Why? I have been told artificers are sup-par leaders and despite the fact they fit the fluff I like perfectly the fact that they ate sup-optimal is a big of a bad thing for me. I am the kind of person who dose not like to be noticeably weaker then the others. Warlord while great mechanical is martial. I like magical characters so the mundane warlord is the oppsite of the artificer....a mechanical hit and a flavor miss. Finally, the bard. I just dislike this class's fluff highly. Music as a form of combat is like something out of a bad saturday morning cartoon and while I know this can be refluffed no ammount of refluffing can get me over this element of the class. It's a BIG pet peave I have and had since the 3.x era so no ammount of "just refluff the bard!" will make me play one. Thus, I am comming to you all to find out if there are any other leader classes that make use of int as a secondary or primary stat that have that "magical" flavor I am looking for while not being sup-par(like the artificer). So, dose anybody know the class for me?(Also, magical need not be arcane. Divine, psionic, shadow, primal ect.. all are "magical" enough for my tastes. It's just martial I dislike.)
I would argue against that Artificers are sub-par leaders; I play them all the time and at no point do I feel like I'm underachieving.  That said, your only other option is the Shaman, which has a build that uses INT as its secondary.
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This is just one guy's uninformed and unfounded opinion to back up the artificer statement above:

Any 4e class, when built and played properly, can perform its role properly with only a few exceptions. I don't believe the artificer is one of those exceptions. Of course, I've been wanting to play an artificer for a while and haven't had a chance, so maybe I'm just biased in thinking that my artificer would do well in our party.
The question is primarily: what type of leader do you want to be?  At least you were clear on the NOT BARD, but we need to know what specific leader feature you want to be utilizing.

Enable: To enable is to grant your allies free attacks. Warlords are excellent enablers, although given your dislike of the said Martial leader, might I recommend Shamans instead; a bit complicated to play, but still effective in terms of this type of leading.

Reposition: To reposition is to grant your allies free movement.  Warlords and Bards do this just about better than any other leader class.

Buff: To buff is to amplify your party's accuracy, damage, or both.  Just about every leader does this.

Debuff: To debuff is to basically dabble in the controller role by weakening opponents.  I believe Bards and Clerics do this best, but several other classes (including the Artificer) can do this as well.

Heal: The leader's rudimentary function, the best healer per surge spent would have to be the [pacifist] cleric, hands down.  Warlords do make excellent healers when built as such (almost comparable to clerics).

As the Warlord has the capability or potential to excel in all four types of leading, that's why they're considered the best leader class (take note that one of the Warlord's builds places INT as a secondary -- or even a primary for some -- so the only reason why it doesn't run up your alley is because you prefer a magic using leader).

Since you prefer a magic type of leader -- which is basically just about every other leader except the Warlord -- why should we recommend Artificers to you, in spite of their limited support relative to some other leaders?  Simple:


  • INT-primary : the only leader class that keys off INT

  • Magic-centric : has Arcana as its primary skill, and can even craft Alchemical Items as needed, or cast Rituals instead.

  • Buffer : the ability to boost accuracy and damage of those nearby, not just as part of your powers.  Arcane Empowerment is [b]really[b] awesome at higher levels, because this makes Artificers the only class that can recharge daily powers or augment an existing weapon to grant one attack +2 to hit.

  • Healing : while the healing isn't as good as other healers, the flexibility of the actual healing power is phenomenal, as it grants the recipient either an encounter-long boost to AC that can be converted into tempHP equal to their healing surge value, or healing that doesn't cause the target to spend a healing surge, and normally surgeless healing during combat is very difficult to acquire [you can even swap the tempHP ability for the ability to grant encounter-long resistance to a given element that can be converted into temporary immunity to an the given element which, while situational, can be quite powerful in certain campaigns].
    Arcane Rejuvination tends to be forgotten in my group, but the fact that the Artificer gives his allies tempHP equal to half his level + his Intelligence modifier, combined with let's say Dwarven Armor, means that every milestone the wearer of the Dwarven Armor not only recovers HP as a minor action [instead of just 1/day], but he gets tempHP on top of it.



Basically, the main reason why Artificers are considered sub-optimal is that they don't have the same amount of support other leaders have in the form of powers and feats.  But in terms of actually being a leader, it's quite solid overall.

[ Heck, I have a Warforged named Seven who, in spite being an Artificer, is built to be a striker, utilizing a Fullblade and weapon attacks and a combination of either static buffs and multi-[W] attacks, with Sohei theme as the cherry on top of the said monstrosity, since all sigils stack on a single weapon, so by level 10 I could easily rake up 2x CON Mod in extra damage to my at-wills and recover hit points equal to my CON Mod each time I hit if needed, else there's the encounter power ally-damage boosting or enemy-debuffing.  Quite a lot of nifty self-boosting, with adequate party-boosting to boot :D ]
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I like magical characters so the mundane warlord is the oppsite of the artificer....a mechanical hit and a flavor miss.



So reflavor all the powers to be magical instead and call it a day? It is fairly easy to see a lazy warlord who uses his standard actions to let others attack as being a master of mind magics who controls the minds and bodies of his allies (whom he likes to call his puppets), bending them to his will. He is arrogant, and consumate manipulator. His mastery over matter means that with a single word, his very presence can warp the laws of reality, causing his puppets to continue doing his bidding when common sense says they should have fallen dead by now.
I would argue against that Artificers are sub-par leaders; I play them all the time and at no point do I feel like I'm underachieving.  That said, your only other option is the Shaman, which has a build that uses INT as its secondary.

Agreed.  The Artificer in our party more than pulls his weight.

OP: If you want to play an Artificer, play one.  F**K the fact that other people say Artificers are "sub-par leaders."  If you enjoy playing it, and your party isn't rolling their eyes when it gets to your turn, that's what's important.

Remember, D&D is a game of imagination.  The listed flavor text of the powers is exactly that: flavor text.  If you don't like, change it, and as long as you don't change the mechanics of the power, if anyone doesn't like it, f**k 'em.

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

Artificers are just fine, and Resistive Formula in particular is an absolutely spanking proactive healing power, particularly with Enhanced Resistive at Paragon.

If you want it to be doubly effective, hybrid it with a lazy Warlord.  It's called Killswitch, and it will make your DM cry.  Look it up.
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Artificers are cool.

Also, anyone who thinks music in combat is something from a bad cartoon has often never experienced the power of music and ignores the fact that througout the ages, most armies has musicians in the frontlines to inspire the troops.
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I like magical characters so the mundane warlord is the oppsite of the artificer....a mechanical hit and a flavor miss.



So reflavor all the powers to be magical instead and call it a day? It is fairly easy to see a lazy warlord who uses his standard actions to let others attack as being a master of mind magics who controls the minds and bodies of his allies (whom he likes to call his puppets), bending them to his will.



I was considering this.. but was actually thinking of it in terms of pushes enemies in to your allies blades... kind of like magehand on steroids and either multiclass with Wizard and get learned spell caster so that I have rituals....  or hybrid with wizard and snag things like hypnosis and the cantrips too (its a great hybrid) 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

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The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
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Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
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"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

As someone who is currently playing an Artificer, they're an awesome leader.  Not only can they heal and do decent damamge, but the flavor for an artificer is top notch.  I'm not sure where you heard that Artificers are sub par leaders, but maybe you should give it a shot yourself, rather than relying on someone else's opinion (poor opinoin at that).  

The forumulas,  resistive, curative, etc... are great minor action heals, plus they have great buff powers like magic weapon and the various sigil powers which gives boasts to damage for an encounter. 

Easily optimized to be a fantastic leader.  You don't even need to be optimized to be a great artificer.

be your own man/woman and give it a shot. 
As someone who is currently playing an Artificer, they're an awesome leader.  Not only can they heal and do decent damamge, but the flavor for an artificer is top notch.  I'm not sure where you heard that Artificers are sub par leaders, but maybe you should give it a shot yourself, rather than relying on someone else's opinion (poor opinoin at that).  

The forumulas,  resistive, curative, etc... are great minor action heals, plus they have great buff powers like magic weapon and the various sigil powers which gives boasts to damage for an encounter. 

Easily optimized to be a fantastic leader.  You don't even need to be optimized to be a great artificer.

be your own man/woman and give it a shot. 



This was basically the post I was trying to make (minus the specific experience of actually playing an artificer). While I know that optimization geeks are able to quantifiably rank various classes and roles, my experience is that most classes, if even halfway optimized according to the optimization guides, will suffice in its role. If you're playing with a party of non-optimizers (who don't geek out and read every guide on here), then you'll probably be more than sufficient and actually excel or shine.
I am not a big fan of the artificer.  After the sentinel it is probably my least favorite leader, but unlike the sentinel an artificer is a good leader mechanically.

The one time I played with one in my party it was fine.  It has some good powers and tricks it can pull off and one of the best leader at wills in the game with magic weapon.
It has some good powers and tricks it can pull off and one of the best leader at wills in the game with magic weapon.



Magic weapon is my general go to at-will.  Just like a warlock might use eldrich blast 90% of the time, this is what i end up using.  gives +1 to attack and the +3 to damage rolls on any adjacent ally.  I don't know anyone who doesn't appreciate some bonus's to hit and to damamge.
Artificer is a perfectly good leader, especially the Int/Con build.  Awesome at buffing, perfectly competent at healing with no effort and good at it with a little effort, throws temps like a boss (dragonborn and anyone else who wants to be bloodied love that), lets your party members share surges, can pick up some okay summons if you take them, pretty good AoE given limited power selection, one excellent PP, what more do you want?  Anyone saying they're underpowered either has ridiculous expectations (will only accept optimized Taclords and Healics and insists everyone else sucks) or isn't using them right.  Artificer is one of my favorite leader classes, and can easily be the striker's best friend.  If you get yourself a Barbarian buddy, he'll be happy.  If you get yourself a Ranger buddy, gods forbid an Archer Ranger who can spend lots of time standing near you, and your damage contribution will hit striker baseline just by buffing him.

And while I don't expect you to suddenly like Bards (and I'd really recommend the artificer instead anyway), one quick note about them: they really aren't music themed in 4e, aside from a few of their powers having the word "song" in them.  I've worked with a couple Cunning Bards who run like ridiculous little tricksters who would never do something so ridiculous as singing, let alone keeping both hands free to play a musical instrument rather than wand/light shield or rapier/shield.  They use arcane magic to create psychic and occasionally sonic effects that screw with their enemies, and bend space and pull power out of nowhere to drag their friends around the battlefield to get them where they need to go.  I know the class can easily get mired in people's outdated perceptions and bad jokes ("hurr hurr why don't you sing them to death?"), but if you look at what 4e Bards actually do in combat, it's really not so bad, and it's barely music themed if you don't take the vague music terms in the power names as literal.  I don't think it takes a full refluff of any power, just a concept that "song of courage" is an ambient effect that gets your allies' adrenaline pumping when they fight alongside you, rather than an Order of the Stick-style dorky tune about fighting bravely.
What's wrong with using songs anyway?  Maybe the bard in question is a bard decked in chain mail and rocks out with Metallica or Megadeth type music.  Just like a football team gets pumped before the game by listening to rock songs, this bard shreds the harp and makes his allies that much better in battle.  haha, sorry, funny mental picture there.
What's wrong with using songs anyway?  Maybe the bard in question is a bard decked in chain mail and rocks out with Metallica or Megadeth type music.  Just like a football team gets pumped before the game by listening to rock songs, this bard shreds the harp and makes his allies that much better in battle.  haha, sorry, funny mental picture there.

"Ah, and here's our best customer, Peter the Bard of Towns' End.  Went out on another adventure, did we?  And ended the big battle by smashing your lute on the dungeon floor as usual, I see.  My, but I hope your compatriots appreciate the show you put on for them.  Well, no fear, good Peter, here's the newest work by our master craftsman.  You remember Gibb's Son, yes?"

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

How about education instead of refluffing.
 
The ancient celtic bards were beings of power... no not minstrels but rather teachers... bards were sacrosanct cross culturally and members of a broader religious hierarchy which included druidic priesthood, attacking these poetic historians or even insulting them assured you affliction by heinous curse.
There are plenty of legends where the creation myth was literally song (See  Tolkeins 
for a well known example) and very likely bardic power is sung in the language of creation.

Canting or enchanting or incantation the root word is song... every  spell caster is singing at you... when you mock the magic of song you mock all magic and miracle - and every shaman is dancing at you too.

Bardic Attack may well just be convincing the universe that the  target doesnt or shouldnt exist... and so you simply dont.

Perhaps an even more vicious interpretation: 
Human immortality is that of the soul and much of that is wrapped up in the belief that the self is important to the universe hence the prohibition against suicides for it may be the only way to kill the
soul... and the culmenating death by vicious mockery and psychic manipulation may well be delivered by the subjects own hand.

And Cha is in some sense Creative Intelligence... much cooler than rote (INT) or pragmatic (WIS) intelligence.

Shrug ... Bards are as awesome and serious as you want them to be.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I like Artificers.  I have played both a pure artificer aswell as a artificer/swordmage hybrid.  Both times I was int/con build.  I won't say the int/wis build is bad, its just not a build that interests me at all.  I love how Artificers healing does not use surges from the target (great for low con strikers).  I also like how they can choose between gicing temps or pure healing.   I also love their ability to up the damage capibility of their party members.  Rangers in particular become redicilous with an artificer buffing them. 

Its true that the healing powers heal for less then other leaders, and its also true they don't have a ton of healing powers available to them.  Healing is only one aspect of a leader though, and I feel that Artificers excell at buffing party members. 

One big problem that Int/Con Artificers had was the lack of any player Race giving those stats.  Githyanki was always int/con but was not player legal in LFR.  However, they finally gave Genasi the con option so now their is a fully player built race available.
Just because were not talking in person does not mean you have to be an @#$%^&*
One big problem that Int/Con Artificers had was the lack of any player Race giving those stats.  Githyanki was always int/con but was not player legal in LFR.  However, they finally gave Genasi the con option so now their is a fully player built race available.

Warforged are now able to go INT/CON by the way
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57047238 wrote:
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire Stay Thirsty, My Friends
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery. What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development) Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with The Best Answer to "Why 4E?" Fun vs. Engaging
Artificer|Swordmages are pretty awesome.  The only problem I ran into was losing access to some of my offensive buffing if I tried to actually occupy some enemies (beyond the Aegis'd one, who I'd usually leave plunking at the Battle Cleric) and not having personal DPR to put in its place.

Also, +1 to Garthanos's Bard argument.  The Bard concept, of course, originates from pre-literate societies, where the keepers of song and chant are the keepers of the culture's collective knowledge.  And if "singing" feels a little fruity and un-serious to you anyway, think "incantation" instead.  While the tone of it has been somewhat lost in 4e, remember that Wizard spells across D&D lore generally have had verbal and somatic components: every invocation of arcane power is, in effect, a song and dance of its own kind.  One way to think about a Bard's magic in terms of the class's 4e power list is that it does exactly what a Wizard does, but while a Wizard is about disruption of the natural order to make unnatural things happen, the Bard is in tune with the natural rhythm of the universe--he amplifies certain natural cadences to make his allies faster, stronger, smarter, and generally more effective, and disrupts the rhythm of his enemies so that their world no longer works quite the way it should.  There are any number of flavor interpretations of Bardic magic that are guaranteed not to make you feel like you're playing a High School Musical cast member.  But I still strongly support Artificers, who spot-imbue power into objects, people, and points of space in the middle of combat.  It's exactly how an Arcane leader should work, and the Battle Engineer PP exemplifies the concept pretty perfectly.
If you are willing to hybrid, would you be willing to go half leader?


  • Wizard/Shaman - tons of control and the INT you are looking for

  • Wizard/Bard - eliminates the "song-i-ness" of the bard and allows you to make it more about illusions and trickster feel

  • Artificer/Swordmage - ThaneRhogar says it all above


There are more, but perhaps someone in your party is willing to play the  "other half" of the leader role. Have you also considered multiclassing a full leader into something else for flavor and fun? There are so many possibilities. Adventure into your books and find them.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Although I haven't tried it, I'm told Wizard|Artificer is pretty great.  It makes sense, given that the biggest weakness of the Artificer is its shallow power list, and the Wizard, of course, has more powers than you can shake a stick at.  And if good control helps your party take less damage and end encounters faster, then you're still being a good leader.

Also, chaosfang pointed out that Warforged can go Int/Con now, and it should be mentioned that Genasi can, too.  This was a much-needed change to 4e, it really annoyed me not to have a fully playable Int/Con race, and both Genasi and Warforged have cool features, so it's fun to be able to use them more. 
+1 Artificer being awesome.  Magic Weapon is one of the great at-wills in the game.

Also +1 Killswitch Hybrid Artificer/Warlord.  If your party needs a leader and you hybridize into a non-leader you'll weaken your healing, and that's your bare minumum obligation.  Killswitch lets you pick up Magic Weapon and Direct the Strike at level 1, and if any of the other players in your party don't suck then one or the other of those will be useful every single round of your career. 

There's also a Githzerai Int/Wis Killswitch variant which uses Githzerai Blademaster to grab Fullblade proficiency from level 1.  In case you wanted a magically infused sword the size of a human being.  It also grabs Battle Engineer instead of Spell Commander, which can be a better choice for parties without additional Arcane characters (and also brings incredible buffing power to any party, Arcane or no).   

Finally, though it's not Int based, I'm pretty partial to Half-Elf Phrenic Master Worldspeaker Shamans with Grasping Shards Dilettante, Intolerable Command, and World Serpent's Grasp.  It's got lots of control, an off-tank, and solid healing.  That may just be me, though.
And while I don't expect you to suddenly like Bards (and I'd really recommend the artificer instead anyway), one quick note about them: they really aren't music themed in 4e, aside from a few of their powers having the word "song" in them.

And the fact that Bard rituals require a musical instrument as a focus.

Although, come to think of it, there isn't a specification that the Bard actually know how to play the instrument. (In fact there are no mechanics for whether a character does or doesn't know how to play an instrument.)

And as long as you meet the value requirements, I don't see a problem with refluffing the instruments as something else.

I've worked with a couple Cunning Bards who run like ridiculous little tricksters who would never do something so ridiculous as singing, let alone keeping both hands free to play a musical instrument rather than wand/light shield or rapier/shield.

Yep, my bard can run like a ridiculous little trickster. 9 squares in one action, without penalties. Two or three times in one turn, if necessary. One of them can be stacked with a shift in the same action. Which is really impressive considering she's a Gnome. 

(Outlaw theme utilities are nice.)

She is a musician though... it fits the character. She's a Disney Princess, and they sing.

(And anyone who thinks that a tambourine can't be played one-handed, doesn't have hipbones. Or a skull. For that matter, why couldn't you thump on a tambourine with the hilt of your sword?)


"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
(And anyone who thinks that a tambourine can't be played one-handed, doesn't have hipbones. Or a skull. For that matter, why couldn't you thump on a tambourine with the hilt of your sword?)

I would assume that it would take an extremely well-built tambourine to withstand multiple hits by a sword hilt (which is usually relatively heavy, to provide balance to the weight of the blade).

Now, if you're going wand and light shield, if you've ever seen a bodhran (Celtic hand-held drum) player go to town with a tipper (the little hittin' stick that you use to make the bodhran make noise), now there's a concept for a bard who wants to go around makin' music...

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

Recently, I have aquired heroes of the feywild and while I still dislike the standard bard's fluff there is another option in the Skald. While I have not fully examined the Skald yet, it seems to eliminate a lot of the "song" fluff of the bard(though it still gets like one sining related ability.) and overall feels lot less foppish and silly then the standard bard, with all the melee attacks it makes. If I where to use it I'd probally play up the whole "noble dignatary" theme, probally taking noble as a theme and refluffing the signs of influence class feature as being related to noble birth rather then being a famous preformer and make a sort of corrupt/spoiled noble type of character......basicly, the next best thing. If I can't be a smart, charismatic ruler of the undead, I'll just be a smart, charismatic ruler of the living. Sure, thats less stylish, but it' the best I can do until Wizards releases a better necromancer build for the wizard.
Funny, I find the Skald's Aura to specifically "be" the distance of their song/story effect.  With the original Bard, some of the spells are called things like Staggering Note, I feel like that is a specific bit of arcane power applied to a bit of silly Bard music.  I feel like the Skald is all about the song/story aspect.
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Yeah. As I said I did not examine the powers and such, just the fluff, which seemed to stress history and legends more then actual music, which I can get behind more then songs. However, either way, the forthcomming Book of Vile Darkness may give me a paragon path that I like, and ANY evil-themed paragon path would make any class, including martian ones like the warlord which I generally stay away from due to, well, being martial, playable if they actually give me some dark magic power.
Artificers are cool.

Also, anyone who thinks music in combat is something from a bad cartoon has often never experienced the power of music and ignores the fact that througout the ages, most armies has musicians in the frontlines to inspire the troops.




This. I roll my eyes is pure dismissive amusement every time someone talks about bards being lame. Unless you're talking about relative efficacy of the class in earlier edtions, you're wrong. :P 

Look at mythology and folklore, the world over. Song/poetry is often one of the most powerful forces in the cosmology.

ANd if you think poetry is only for sissies...tell that to Odin, the font and patron of Poetic inspiration, right along with berserker fury, victory and death. In fact, berserker fury and poetic inspiration may have been considered basically the same thing.  
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Lameness is in the eye of the beholder.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
(And anyone who thinks that a tambourine can't be played one-handed, doesn't have hipbones. Or a skull. For that matter, why couldn't you thump on a tambourine with the hilt of your sword?)

I would assume that it would take an extremely well-built tambourine to withstand multiple hits by a sword hilt (which is usually relatively heavy, to provide balance to the weight of the blade).

Now, if you're going wand and light shield, if you've ever seen a bodhran (Celtic hand-held drum) player go to town with a tipper (the little hittin' stick that you use to make the bodhran make noise), now there's a concept for a bard who wants to go around makin' music...



I'm playing a satyress skald right now who fights with her fiddle bow (in the style of canne de combat) , and uses the fiddle itself as a parrying weapon (reflavored sword and sheild). She can lay down so much striker buffing in one fight, especially if I'm willing to use multiple daily powers...it's just mean to the enemy. The charging pixie ninja loves our first round nova. :P 
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I'm playing a satyress skald right now who fights with her fiddle bow (in the style of canne de combat) , and uses the fiddle itself as a parrying weapon (reflavored sword and sheild). She can lay down so much striker buffing in one fight, especially if I'm willing to use multiple daily powers...it's just mean to the enemy. The charging pixie ninja loves our first round nova. :P 

Nice!!

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

I'm playing a satyress skald right now who fights with her fiddle bow (in the style of canne de combat) , and uses the fiddle itself as a parrying weapon (reflavored sword and sheild). She can lay down so much striker buffing in one fight, especially if I'm willing to use multiple daily powers...it's just mean to the enemy. The charging pixie ninja loves our first round nova. :P 

Nice!!




Oh, and don't forget the elven scout ranger mc avenger with the samurai theme, and my daily that gives a two roll take better attack once in the encounter...so much crits... :D


I thought about doing a bard|executioner hybrid, so I could buff the strikers...and then strike, but I decided not to step on the toes of the other strikers. :P  
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Oh, and don't forget the elven scout ranger mc avenger with the samurai theme, and my daily that gives a two roll take better attack once in the encounter...so much crits... :D

I thought about doing a bard|executioner hybrid, so I could buff the strikers...and then strike, but I decided not to step on the toes of the other strikers. :P  

In all honesty, the "Nice" was more in response to the flavor than the optimization (although the op is nice too).  Don't get me wrong, I like playing and designing tight character builds, but I'm an even bigger fan of well-developed characters than I am of well-built ones.

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

Lameness is in the eye of the beholder.


Death rays are in the eyes of the Beholder.

*rimshot*
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Oh, and don't forget the elven scout ranger mc avenger with the samurai theme, and my daily that gives a two roll take better attack once in the encounter...so much crits... :D

I thought about doing a bard|executioner hybrid, so I could buff the strikers...and then strike, but I decided not to step on the toes of the other strikers. :P  

In all honesty, the "Nice" was more in response to the flavor than the optimization (although the op is nice too).  Don't get me wrong, I like playing and designing tight character builds, but I'm an even bigger fan of well-developed characters than I am of well-built ones.




Oh for sure. :D Have you read the origin story section of Heroes of The Feywild? It's a really fun alternative to backgrounds, especially if you're a bit free with the story elements, and tweak it here and there as you're telling the story. I don't think I'd use it for every character, but it's definately cool. 

I'm thinking about mc warlock, because at one point in my origin story, I befriended a green dragon, in a classic "pretty young maid entrancing the dragon with her beautiful song" sort of scenario. On the other hand, mc rogue or something else martial would reflect the kung fu training gained from the pixie ninja's parents, when my character befriended them. For me, part of the fun is mixing the fluff and the mechanics. That's one of my favorite things about 4e, is being able to decide for myself, with my DM/group, where, when and how the fluff and mechanics work together.

You'll like this. I named her Arianthe, Aria for short. :P

This video was part of the inspiration, but I've wanted to play a satyr and/or satyress for a long time.  (either a satyress bard, like I chose, or a satyr monk.) 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWyI-58gpic&list... 
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Lameness is in the eye of the beholder.


Death rays are in the eyes of the Beholder.

*rimshot*



I shouldn't encourage this blatantly ridiculous joke, but as I read it I thought the same thing. Thank you for the smiles.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Lameness is in the eye of the beholder.


Death rays are in the eyes of the Beholder.

*rimshot*

I shouldn't encourage this blatantly ridiculous joke, but as I read it I thought the same thing. Thank you for the smiles.

My favorite joke along those lines was always "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  The rest of the party is in the stomach of the beholder."

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

You probably shouldn't listen to anything that comes from whoever told you that Artificers are sub-optimal.

As the title asks. I want to find a leader class that has at least one build that uses int, as either a primary or secondary stat, that is not the bard, artificer or warlord. Why? I have been told artificers are sup-par leaders and despite the fact they fit the fluff I like perfectly the fact that they ate sup-optimal is a big of a bad thing for me. I am the kind of person who dose not like to be noticeably weaker then the others. Warlord while great mechanical is martial. I like magical characters so the mundane warlord is the oppsite of the artificer....a mechanical hit and a flavor miss. Finally, the bard. I just dislike this class's fluff highly. Music as a form of combat is like something out of a bad saturday morning cartoon and while I know this can be refluffed no ammount of refluffing can get me over this element of the class. It's a BIG pet peave I have and had since the 3.x era so no ammount of "just refluff the bard!" will make me play one. Thus, I am comming to you all to find out if there are any other leader classes that make use of int as a secondary or primary stat that have that "magical" flavor I am looking for while not being sup-par(like the artificer). So, dose anybody know the class for me?(Also, magical need not be arcane. Divine, psionic, shadow, primal ect.. all are "magical" enough for my tastes. It's just martial I dislike.)



You probably shouldn't listen to anything that comes from whoever told you that Artificers are sub-optimal.

As the title asks. I want to find a leader class that has at least one build that uses int, as either a primary or secondary stat, that is not the bard, artificer or warlord. Why? I have been told artificers are sup-par leaders and despite the fact they fit the fluff I like perfectly the fact that they ate sup-optimal is a big of a bad thing for me. I am the kind of person who dose not like to be noticeably weaker then the others. Warlord while great mechanical is martial. I like magical characters so the mundane warlord is the oppsite of the artificer....a mechanical hit and a flavor miss. Finally, the bard. I just dislike this class's fluff highly. Music as a form of combat is like something out of a bad saturday morning cartoon and while I know this can be refluffed no ammount of refluffing can get me over this element of the class. It's a BIG pet peave I have and had since the 3.x era so no ammount of "just refluff the bard!" will make me play one. Thus, I am comming to you all to find out if there are any other leader classes that make use of int as a secondary or primary stat that have that "magical" flavor I am looking for while not being sup-par(like the artificer). So, dose anybody know the class for me?(Also, magical need not be arcane. Divine, psionic, shadow, primal ect.. all are "magical" enough for my tastes. It's just martial I dislike.)






Agreed.  They have the most versatile healing powers in the game, awesome at-will(s), and a couple great paragon paths.

Anyone who thinks that a bard with an instrument isn't to be feared should consider the idea of a group af armed men with a bagpiper in their midst. Having a blaring set o' pipes going during a battle is enough to dishearten any foe with ears, and that's just what they were designed for.


--BladeMaelstrom
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