wands and pricing

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One of my players argues that to find the price of a used wand you use the following formula.


X= price of a fully charged wand, Z= How many charges it has left.


Used wand = (X/50)xZ.


Now I can see his logic about the math but this results in him buying several low lvl wands (1st lvl spells) with low charges (3-5-10) for prices like 45gp, 75gp and 150gp. He is now 4th lvl (Cleric 3/Wizard 1) and pretty much has about 20+ wands with all kinds of 1 st lvl spells. I have been DMing for quite some time now and this is the first time a see a caster with so much wands. I am not sure if he is more powerful or not but it seems weird. Are we playing this wrong??

I don't think you're playing things wrong EXCEPT you probably shouldn't make "used" wands readily available. 

When you're looking as such a low number of charges you are really looking at a situation where the character should be using SCROLLS except that a scroll cost more for each use than a single charge on a wand.  For example with most 1st-level spells a wand is 750 gp/15 gp per charge while a single scroll costs 25 gp; moving up to 4th-level spells a wand is 21000gp/420 gp per charge with a scroll costing 700 gp.  Pricing wands by the charge is basically turning them into scrolls at 40% off.

I know it is possible for the PCs to aquire a wand with fewer charges on it from a defeated opponent but I also seem to remember seeing that wands are always sold fully charged.  I guess that if I was going to make used wands available I'd still charge a high base price for a wand and then add a surcharge for the number of charges it has; something like a wand with one one charge is still half (or some other fraction) the price of a fully charged want.  This is to discourage allowing cheap wands to replace scrolls as the "emergency reserve" when you want a few spells available.
 
I don't think you're playing things wrong EXCEPT you probably shouldn't make "used" wands readily available.  



Seconding StevenO: The Magic Item Compendium suggests this, but usually only for NPCs or loot. They give "item levels" (price bands) for partially-charged wands, with the caveat that they probably shouldn't be "sold" and instead reflect loot-grade items used to round out NPC equipment or treasure. The calculations for price bands are consistent with the formula used here, for what it's worth.

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And I'll third partially-charged wands being uncommon in the market by adding the practical in-game angle.

Wands are made for spells that someone wants to use a lot, and they're inherently created with the full 50 charges.  Anyone who gets hold of a fully-charged wand with a helpful spell is typically going to use it until it runs out, rather than selling it while it still has some charges left.

So, while you might find the occasional wand for sale that just happened to have a few charges left when someone decided they wouldn't need that kind of magic anymore, most of them are kept and used by their owners until they run dry (at which point they become a different category of item known as a "stick" and are much more commonly available).

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The player argued that at some point it becomes more effective to cast a spell than use a wand, because wands always use the lowest caster level and save DC possible (as per creating items on DMG). He also argued that at higher levels most casters use their high level spells for combat and leave the lower level spells for utility/buffs. So at level 10+ not many casters will carry 1st level wands. In addition certain wands are so common that it makes sense you could find a lot of used ones, for example cure light wands on a temple of healing.


Since the only limit on what you can find to buy in a city is the gold limit he proposed that each time he wants to buy a wand he will tell me the charges he is looking and I will roll 1d0+1 and add it to the charges he wanted. That will be the closest he found in the market. For example if he wanted a wand with 3 charges and I rolled 5+1=6, then the closest wand he founds is one with 9 charges.

It's funny that you mention a wand of cure light wounds.  That is an item you should NEVER be able to buy used.  I haven't done the math but I understand it to be one of the most cost effective (hp/gp) items available regardless of character level.  Groups of EPIC level characters still carry and buy those things.

There certainly are points where it is more effective to cast a spell than use a wand but in all honesty those are NOT the spells you are generally going to put into a wand anyway.  I will also point out that wands do NOT always use the lowest caster level possible (you can buy a wand of MM cast at 9th-level and a wand of fireballs at 10th for example) which can also be true of scrolls.  When it comes to saves I'll remind you that caster level has NOTHING to do with that DC although a higher level caster may have a higher casting stat or other things that would increase saves.

Your formula for determining the minimum number of charges on an available used wand also has problems.  I see 1d0+1 (is that supposed to be d10+1?) but the issue is that I could just change my request based on your formula.  If your formula averages a wand with six more charges than I ask for then I just reduce my request.  If you're pricing linearly based on charges a wand with only a single charge on it is still a bargain compared to a scroll with the same spell.  If you really want a random minimum number of charges on a given type of wand what the player wants shouldn't affect the outcome; I'd suggest d%/2 for the minimum number of charges for an available wand of a given type IF I was going to do used wands.
   
The player argued that...certain wands are so common that it makes sense you could find a lot of used ones...

This is the only thing correct about what your player argued.  There are certain types of wands that you should be able to find used.  Not buy.
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Since the only limit on what you can find to buy in a city is the gold limit he proposed that each time he wants to buy a wand he will tell me the charges he is looking and I will roll 1d0+1 and add it to the charges he wanted. That will be the closest he found in the market. For example if he wanted a wand with 3 charges and I rolled 5+1=6, then the closest wand he founds is one with 9 charges.




And you tell him "No. That is not how we will do it." 

I could see maybe an occasional partially charged wand for sale, but still have it a rare occurance.

Remember that if HE wants them so badly, so does every other spell caster out there.  It's supply vs demand.   If you were a low level caster, wouldn't you peruse the magic shops or YeBay for used wands in the hopes of paying only 75gp for 5 charges of burning hands (at 1st level), instead of forking out 750gp for something you won't use for very long?  That 1d4 fan of flames at 1st and even 2nd level is worthwhile, but after that its worthless.

Every low level caster would be snatching up the good stuff.  The crap wands of Jump, Reduce Person, and Erase would be all that's left in the bargain bin.  He better make friends with the magic shop owner or the mage guild or whomever.  He's not the only coin purse in town.  

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"I can go on with an elaborate example as to why cheap partially charged wands are common in the market but let’s just say it’s a supply vs demand issue. There is a demand from low level casters for extra spells per day and since masterwork weapons (300gp) or masterwork armor (150gp++) is worthless to them they have to find something else to spend their gold. Scrolls are their first obvious option but wands, if they can be provided partially charged, are an even better solution, especially for sorcerers and clerics (wizard can use scrolls to increase their known spells in their spellbook). I can see myself paying up to 20gp per charge for a partially charged wand thus making it profitable for higher level characters to sell their partially charged wands and buy a fully charged one, at list until I have enough gold to begin buying fully charged wands as well. At which time I will start selling my partially charged wands for profit creating a circle that eventually will drop the prices to 15gp per charge.


If the argument is that a character with partially wands will be unbalanced let me point that except from an uncomfortable feeling the DM has when I walk around with 20+ wands, the game hasn’t got any problems. In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells (at 1st – 4th lvl that’s after 3 encounters tops), instead we continue until an appropriate moment for rest occurs."

I can see myself paying up to 20gp per charge for a partially charged wand thus making it profitable for higher level characters to sell their partially charged wands and buy a fully charged one, at list until I have enough gold to begin buying fully charged wands as well. At which time I will start selling my partially charged wands for profit creating a circle that eventually will drop the prices to 15gp per charge.

The "circle" involves either continually selling partially charged wands at 20 gp/charge (which actually makes sense), or eventually dropping the sale price to 15 gp/charge, at which point people stop selling them because they don't make any money by doing so.

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If the argument is that a character with partially wands will be unbalanced let me point that except from an uncomfortable feeling the DM has when I walk around with 20+ wands, the game hasn’t got any problems. In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells (at 1st – 4th lvl that’s after 3 encounters tops), instead we continue until an appropriate moment for rest occurs."



That's kind of conceding his point. The major balancing point behind mages is that they run out of spell slots. If he doesn't run out of spell slots...

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[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
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[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
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[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

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Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Exactly - the point of almost any spellcasters balance is for their spell use to have limitations - forcing them to need more rest or to rely on friends to guard them until they can.

Without that limit the spellcaster should always be the strongest character in the group.
Even if your wands aren't damaging spells, its the principle of the matter.

And the fact of you stating that you now can continue without rest means you have become unbalanced.
If the argument is that a character with partially wands will be unbalanced let me point that except from an uncomfortable feeling the DM has when I walk around with 20+ wands, the game hasn’t got any problems. In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells (at 1st – 4th lvl that’s after 3 encounters tops), instead we continue until an appropriate moment for rest occurs."



That's kind of conceding his point. The major balancing point behind mages is that they run out of spell slots. If he doesn't run out of spell slots...


I still run out of spells and then I have to use wands that cost gold… even if I didn’t have the wands I would be carrying scrolls, maybe less scrolls because they cost 25gp per use but still enough.Plus wands and scrolls are never as good as my own spell because they use minimum CL and save DC (unless I pay extra)


Slagger_the_chuul: “The "circle" involves either continually selling partially charged wands at 20 gp/charge (which actually makes sense), or eventually dropping the sale price to 15 gp/charge, at which point people stop selling them because they don't make any money by doing so.”


I can see wizard guilds and temples that also use wands, to provide services, to start selling their used wands… once used wands are common the “profit” for selling a used wand will be the opportunity to have a fully charged one, since the market isn’t always available. For instance a 10 lvl character that is about to leave for adventuring could sell his partially charged wands in order to raise the gold to buy a fully charged one.


Worst case scenario partially charged wands cost a bit more (per charge) than fully charged wands… Like I said I don’t have a problem with paying up to 20gp per charge (33% profit) if it means I will be able to sell my partially charged wands for the same prices…

.... In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells ...

That's kind of conceding his point. The major balancing point behind mages is that they run out of spell slots. If he doesn't run out of spell slots...

I still run out of spells and then I have to use wands that cost gold… even if I didn’t have the wands I would be carrying scrolls, maybe less scrolls because they cost 25gp per use but still enough.Plus wands and scrolls are never as good as my own spell because they use minimum CL and save DC (unless I pay extra).

Then carry scrolls instead of trying to cheap your way out by saying you're buying limited charge wands.  Buy a scroll with three spells for 75gp instead of thinking you can buy a wand with three charges for 45 60gp or better yet just MAKE your own scrolls.  It appears to me that the ONLY reason you want to by wands "by the charge" is because it would be cheaper than buying the same number of scrolls.  As for paying "extra" for wands or scrolls cast at a higher level those options certain CAN be helpful especially when the effect increases at the same rate as the cost.
Slagger_the_chuul:“The "circle" involves either continually selling partially charged wands at 20 gp/charge (which actually makes sense), or eventually dropping the sale price to 15 gp/charge, at which point people stop selling them because they don't make any money by doing so.”

I can see wizard guilds and temples that also use wands, to provide services, to start selling their used wands… once used wands are common the “profit” for selling a used wand will be the opportunity to have a fully charged one, since the market isn’t always available. For instance a 10 lvl character that is about to leave for adventuring could sell his partially charged wands in order to raise the gold to buy a fully charged one.


Worst case scenario partially charged wands cost a bit more (per charge) than fully charged wands… Like I said I don’t have a problem with paying up to 20gp per charge (33% profit) if it means I will be able to sell my partially charged wands for the same prices.


Real world economics don't factor in to DnD.  If they did why would the DMG says that PCs can sell unwanted equipment, including magic items, at only HALF of their market value but then require them to pay full market price to aquire new stuff?  The truth is that a PC type character who was SELLING a partially charged wand (lets say 12 charges on a 1st-level wand) would only get 90gp for it.  I see you want your PC to be the buyer at that dirt low price but that isn't the way the game is designed to work.


Cynic's advocate, alternate point of view:

It's certainly a possible a player's desire to buy cheap wands of low charges is one of greed for power and/or wealth. However, it could be a symptom of a stingy DM not providing treasure the player wants and/or can use. That begs the question if the DM is such how is the player even allowed to buy wands, but the point remains. Maybe the DM believes just giving treasure is the denigrated Monty Hall but allowing the purchase means the player has to give up his gold so it feels more balanced. In any case, if the DM allows for treasure hoards found to have items players actually want and/or need purposely placed there by the DM, then player desire to purchase items is lowered. It becomes more of a matter of a particular strategy or just for fun of the game when there is that occasional purchase. Excessive purchases would then be known to be greed.
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I can see wizard guilds and temples that also use wands, to provide services, to start selling their used wands… once used wands are common the “profit” for selling a used wand will be the opportunity to have a fully charged one, since the market isn’t always available. For instance a 10 lvl character that is about to leave for adventuring could sell his partially charged wands in order to raise the gold to buy a fully charged one.

Guilds and temples are much more likely to keep them since, as an entire organization, it's easier for them to find a use for the wands they already have.  There would certainly be a few cases where individuals might happen to be slightly short on the gold requires for a fresh wand, and have a wand with a few charges left to sell, and want to make sure they have a fully-charged wand just in case, but they're the rarity, rather than the rule.
Worst case scenario partially charged wands cost a bit more (per charge) than fully charged wands… Like I said I don’t have a problem with paying up to 20gp per charge (33% profit) if it means I will be able to sell my partially charged wands for the same prices…

Well, the half price selling typical for adventurering PCs (a game balance thing, really; at least it's not as punishing as 4th Edition treasure sales) makes selling things for an actual profit nonviable and would stop you from doing that personally.  However, it does make sense for people to sell a more demanded item like a partially-charged wand for a slightly higher price, and for a PC it means getting a better return of 10 gp/charge on wand sales rather than 7.5 gp/charge.

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Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Also keep in mind that the argument that you are spending gold so you can keep casting spells falls flat.

1) The warrior can't spend gold to swing his weapon and avoid depleting his life. Well, maybe if he's an archer.

2) If you cast 3 spells from a wand in an encounter, that's 180 gp. As long as your enemy has a suit of plate armor and a masterwork sword, you are now money ahead, without even using spell slots, and should definitely keep using wands as long as you can leverage them into more funds.

3) All of which means, all the other low level mages would be doing the same damn thing, and there wouldn't be any wands of partial charges laying around to be sold...they'd all be getting time leveraged into more funds by low level casters.

4) as said above, its a balance thing. A spellcaster who never runs out of spell slots is like a warrior that never runs out of hit points (infinite hit points, not infinite after battle healing). It unbalances things very quickly.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Also keep in mind that the argument that you are spending gold so you can keep casting spells falls flat.

1) The warrior can't spend gold to swing his weapon and avoid depleting his life. Well, maybe if he's an archer.

2) If you cast 3 spells from a wand in an encounter, that's 180 gp. As long as your enemy has a suit of plate armor and a masterwork sword, you are now money ahead, without even using spell slots, and should definitely keep using wands as long as you can leverage them into more funds.

3) All of which means, all the other low level mages would be doing the same damn thing, and there wouldn't be any wands of partial charges laying around to be sold...they'd all be getting time leveraged into more funds by low level casters.

4) as said above, its a balance thing. A spellcaster who never runs out of spell slots is like a warrior that never runs out of hit points (infinite hit points, not infinite after battle healing). It unbalances things very quickly.

==Aelryinth




Crystal of Life drinking least to greater heals with every swing of your sword (page 64-65 Magic item compendium) or one cure potions?? Or one level in ranger and then use of wands of cure light?? Also consider that the same gold a caster spends on consumable items a fighter could collect until he has enough to magically increase his AC or attack and dmg bonus


My point is. There is no rule I can find that says you cannot find partially charged wands in the market and there is a rule for how to calculate the “worth” of a partially charged wands.


As far as if its logic or not, or if real world economics or dnd gear economics allow for the market to sell partially charged wands the only rule I can find is the one about the cities gp limit. So if a city could have a fully charged 1st lvl wand (750gp) I can’t find any rule that says it can’t have a partially charged 1st lvl wand.


If you know a rule that I haven’t found please tell us, else I believe it depends on how magic items are treated in his world/campaign.




Crystal of Life drinking least to greater heals with every swing of your sword (page 64-65 Magic item compendium)


If you think that even a TWF, dual-greater-lifedrinking crystal can keep up with damage at the levels that matter (you need a +3 weapon to equip those, and +3 weapons are, according to the PHB2, expected to show up on fighters at level 13), you're sorely mistaken. The crystals restore just 5hp per hit and cap out at 50 per crystal. (Remember, in the TWF case, the usual number of attacks is 7-8 per round depending on Haste; that's 35-40 out of 50 in a single round!)  A better example would be the Martial Spirit stance in the Tome of Battle, which is unlimited, but critically only heals 2 per swing (which is negligable at the higher levels we're talking about) and prevents the crusader from using other, more relevant stances. (I"ve only seen Martial Spirit abused ONCE, and it involved an unusual interaction between it, Avalanche of Blades, and Combat Rhythm.)

or one cure potions??


Except for Cure Light, these are all a waste, and except in very narrow circumstances, if you're using them in battle, you're doing something wrong. The wizard in this thread just needs to snap out another wand to have a full range of stamina left - he can do so and fire a spell in the same round. (Retrieving a stored wand is a move action, if the wizard's even half awake.)

 
Or one level in ranger and then use of wands of cure light??


Also out-of-combat. The better analogy for the wand is allowing the wizard to regain spells after five minutes of rest. Instead, he just snaps out a fresh wand and is never out of power points. This is like the fighter switching to another bank of hit points.

Also consider that the same gold a caster spends on consumable items a fighter could collect until he has enough to magically increase his AC or attack and dmg bonus



That argument goes both ways and doesn't help your case, especially if the wizard takes Craft Wand as one of his bonus feats. Likewise, a wizard does notneed to increase his AC, atk, dmg, or similar, simply because his spells do it all for him.

My point is. There is no rule I can find that says you cannot find partially charged wands in the market and there is a rule for how to calculate the “worth” of a partially charged wands.


1) "The rules don't say I can't" isn't good logic. There's also no rule in the DMG that says a dead character can take no actions or that nonspellcasters need to sleep. 
2) This is getting pedantic, but it describes the value of those wands, not the price of those wands. Only fully-charged wands have a "market price" ; partially chargedwands have a value, suggesting how much they'd be worth if resold.

Meanwhile, the MIC says the following on used wands (emphasis mine):
Particularly when equipping an NPC, affording a fully charged wand can be difficult. Since the typical NPC won’t have a chance to use more than a few wand charges in any combat, consider equipping such characters with partially used wands—that is, wands with fewer than full charges. This is also a good way to put a cheap wand into a treasure hoard, and you can even allow PCs to select a wand or two this way as well.


Partially charged wands are clearly intended to be primarily used by NPCs and in loot piles. "A wand or two" can be found this way by PCs, but that's a clear minority. The majority - all but "a wand or two" should NOT be partially charged, and thus most wands you buy should be fully charged.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I am confused… You believe that a caster with partially charged wands is the equivalent of a fighter with unlimited hit points?


You also believe that partially charged wands are ok, but only for NPCs??

If the argument is that a character with partially wands will be unbalanced let me point that except from an uncomfortable feeling the DM has when I walk around with 20+ wands, the game hasn’t got any problems. In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells (at 1st – 4th lvl that’s after 3 encounters tops), instead we continue until an appropriate moment for rest occurs."

I am confused… You believe that a caster with partially charged wands is the equivalent of a fighter with unlimited hit points?

No, we are saying that a wizard with unlimited spells (which, above, is your implied goal) is far more powerful than a fighter with unlimited HP.
You also believe that partially charged wands are ok, but only for treasure hoards??


That's exactly what he (and the rulebook on magic items and their placement) said.

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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
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When she meets CJ's mom?
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I was just going through the MIC, and they actually have some wands with 10 charges as level 1 loot (level 1 spells).

But those are not available for sale.

yeah, I'd give NPC's wands with limited charges. NPC's have crap for gear compared to PC's. Wands are an excuse to get buffs and cheaper then potions. Use them and lose them.

Potions don't swing swords. Neither do CLW wands. Wands ARE an attack, and if cheap enough, are basically unlimited attacks.

Your desire to always have spells is a balance issue (that comes up again at higher levels)...not running out of spells basically devalues those classes that don't depend on spells. Your '3 encounters' now means you are pulling the '10 minute work day', and the DM isn't hammering you for it, another way to abuse the limited spells issue.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Also, the Iconic Fighter Regdar in Enemies and Allies has a +4 Sword at level 10, but that's about his WBL there.

You can definitely get a +3 weapon before then.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
If the argument is that a character with partially wands will be unbalanced let me point that except from an uncomfortable feeling the DM has when I walk around with 20+ wands, the game hasn’t got any problems. In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells (at 1st – 4th lvl that’s after 3 encounters tops), instead we continue until an appropriate moment for rest occurs."

I am confused… You believe that a caster with partially charged wands is the equivalent of a fighter with unlimited hit points?

No, we are saying that a wizard with unlimited spells (which, above, is your implied goal) is far more powerful than a fighter with unlimited HP.
You also believe that partially charged wands are ok, but only for treasure hoards??


That's exactly what he (and the rulebook on magic items and their placement) said.




I really don’t understand how partially charged wands translate to unlimited spells to you, please explained it me.


What’s the difference between a wizard with 100 scrolls of magic missile and a wizard with 2 wands of magic missile?  -100xp and +250gp or -1000gp depending on whether he crafted or bought the scrolls and assuming he can only buy fully charged wands….


So a wizard carrying 20+ partially charged wands is unbalanced and more powerful than a fighter with unlimited hit points but a wizard carrying the same amount of spells on scrolls is ok??

What’s the difference between a wizard with 100 scrolls of magic missile and a wizard with 2 wands of magic missile?  -100xp and +250gp or -1000gp depending on whether he crafted or bought the scrolls and assuming he can only buy fully charged wands….

So a wizard carrying 20+ partially charged wands is unbalanced and more powerful than a fighter with unlimited hit points but a wizard carrying the same amount of spells on scrolls is ok??


If you really don't think that there's an important difference, why wouldn't you just buy the scrolls?

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
What’s the difference between a wizard with 100 scrolls of magic missile and a wizard with 2 wands of magic missile?  -100xp and +250gp or -1000gp depending on whether he crafted or bought the scrolls and assuming he can only buy fully charged wands….

So a wizard carrying 20+ partially charged wands is unbalanced and more powerful than a fighter with unlimited hit points but a wizard carrying the same amount of spells on scrolls is ok??


If you really don't think that there's an important difference, why wouldn't you just buy the scrolls?



It is easier to carry and get two wands than it is 100 scrolls.

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