Monk Unarmed Combatant ... dual-wield?

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With the new Monk article which came out this weak, there is a Monk MC feat which gives you the Monk Unarmed Combatant class feature.  What I want to know, is can you use the unarmed combatant "weapon" on both hands?  So, you are essentially dual-wielding Monk Unarmed Combatant weapons?

I have a tempest fighter than currently uses Spiked Gauntlets and I want to use this MC feat and just have dual Unarmed Combatant weapons wielded.  Is this "by the book"?
Yes.  I have a monk build(not recent, but still) and I left him with only the unarmed strike and took the two-weapon feats, and they work just fine.
It appears that by RAW the answer is no.  Monk Unarmed Combatant says that "when you make a weapon attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike."  It says nothing about using the monk unarmed strike for any other purposes, so when you aren't making an attack, you're not wielding anything.

That said, Monk Unarmed Strike only requires that you have a free hand: spiked gauntlets expliticitly leave your hands free while being wielded.  This means you can wear spiked gauntlets to keep your two-weapon defense active, while using Monk Unarmed Strike for all your attacks.

Now, whether or not you can act as if you're dual-wielding MUSs for the purposes of attacks that require you to be using two weapons or for your Tempest Tech attack and damage bonuses, that's debatable, but I'd say yes.  Those bonuses are only relevant while you are making an attack, and while you are making an attack you can be wielding a MUS in each free hand.
It appears that by RAW the answer is no.  Monk Unarmed Combatant says that "when you make a weapon attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike."  It says nothing about using the monk unarmed strike for any other purposes, so when you aren't making an attack, you're not wielding anything.

That said, Monk Unarmed Strike only requires that you have a free hand: spiked gauntlets expliticitly leave your hands free while being wielded.  This means you can wear spiked gauntlets to keep your two-weapon defense active, while using Monk Unarmed Strike for all your attacks.

Now, whether or not you can act as if you're dual-wielding MUSs for the purposes of attacks that require you to be using two weapons or for your Tempest Tech attack and damage bonuses, that's debatable, but I'd say yes.  Those bonuses are only relevant while you are making an attack, and while you are making an attack you can be wielding a MUS in each free hand.


Interesting.  So, a swordmage can use a spiked gauntlet, take two weapon fighting for +1 damage, take two weapon defnse for + AC and Ref, and still benefit from the higher defense value of their shield because the off hand is still empty.
That would  be a long way to go for +1 defense especially since the +1 damage doesn't scale with tier.  The defense is still nice at epic but the +1 damage is pretty pointless at that point.
When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack. you can use the monk unarmed strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group. This weapon has the off-hand weapon property and a +3 proficiency bonus, and it deals 1d8 damage. You must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike, even if you're kicking, kneeing, elbowing, or headbutting a target.


The description doesn't specify that it's a one-handed or two-handed weapon, just that it's a "weapon" and you must have a hand free; then you are "armed" with Monk Unarmed Strike.  

I don't see how you can get further "armed" by having both hands free, (especially with the accompanying text -- "My left hand is kneeing and my right hand is headbutting.")
When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack. you can use the monk unarmed strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group. This weapon has the off-hand weapon property and a +3 proficiency bonus, and it deals 1d8 damage. You must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike, even if you're kicking, kneeing, elbowing, or headbutting a target.


The description doesn't specify that it's a one-handed or two-handed weapon, just that it's a "weapon" and you must have a hand free; then you are "armed" with Monk Unarmed Strike.  

I don't see how you can get further "armed" by having both hands free, (especially with the accompanying text -- "My left hand is kneeing and my right hand is headbutting.")



On the other hand, why not?  There is no definitive ruling either way, I suppose.
The rules don't directly support the OP's suggestion, although there is no explicit ruling out of the option. That is not an uncommon situation when looking at edge cases which result from multi-classing.

The only problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that the end result may well be numerically superior to any other combination of weapons possible with Tempest Technique. For the cost of one MC feat, the OP may have defined a "best" option for the build. Having a single "best" option is not a good situation for character building. As DM, I would normally bar anything without explicit rules support on those grounds (with maybe an exception if the class and style was normally considered quite weak)

Going from spiked gauntlets to unarmed combat will upgrade you from +2 prof/1d6 to +3 prof/1d8, with the possibility of a further feat that would make that +3 prof/1d10. In combination with Tempest Technique both main and off-hand attacks get a further +1 to hit and +2 damage.

If someone could suggest some other configurations that equal this, then if I were DM I'd be more inclined to ignore the lack of rules support. I would consider something with similar damage output, or an equally felicitous use of the MC feat for an alternate build.

The rules don't directly support the OP's suggestion, although there is no explicit ruling out of the option. That is not an uncommon situation when looking at edge cases which result from multi-classing.

The only problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that the end result may well be numerically superior to any other combination of weapons possible with Tempest Technique. For the cost of one MC feat, the OP may have defined a "best" option for the build. Having a single "best" option is not a good situation for character building. As DM, I would normally bar anything without explicit rules support on those grounds (with maybe an exception if the class and style was normally considered quite weak)

Going from spiked gauntlets to unarmed combat will upgrade you from +2 prof/1d6 to +3 prof/1d8, with the possibility of a further feat that would make that +3 prof/1d10. In combination with Tempest Technique both main and off-hand attacks get a further +1 to hit and +2 damage.

If someone could suggest some other configurations that equal this, then if I were DM I'd be more inclined to ignore the lack of rules support. I would consider something with similar damage output, or an equally felicitous use of the MC feat for an alternate build.




Why stop as 1d10?  With Shock Trooper, the Monk Unarmed Strike with Improved Unarmed Strike has a damage die of 1d12. 
The rules don't directly support the OP's suggestion, although there is no explicit ruling out of the option. That is not an uncommon situation when looking at edge cases which result from multi-classing.

The only problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that the end result may well be numerically superior to any other combination of weapons possible with Tempest Technique. For the cost of one MC feat, the OP may have defined a "best" option for the build. Having a single "best" option is not a good situation for character building. As DM, I would normally bar anything without explicit rules support on those grounds (with maybe an exception if the class and style was normally considered quite weak)

Going from spiked gauntlets to unarmed combat will upgrade you from +2 prof/1d6 to +3 prof/1d8, with the possibility of a further feat that would make that +3 prof/1d10. In combination with Tempest Technique both main and off-hand attacks get a further +1 to hit and +2 damage.

If someone could suggest some other configurations that equal this, then if I were DM I'd be more inclined to ignore the lack of rules support. I would consider something with similar damage output, or an equally felicitous use of the MC feat for an alternate build.




While the proficiency and damage die are nice...that is ALL there is to it. The unarmed weapon group has no other support to speak of, so light blades are still going to be king of the hill for tempest fighters looking for damage. Spending 2 feats for the best version of the WORST weapon group isn't all that special.

By comparison, spiked chain training, which also costs your MC, gives you a +3/2d4 double light blade/flail w/reach. While it doesn't benefit specifically from tempest style except on the off-hand side, the other qualities blow monk unarmed strike out of the water. A Weapon Talent fighter with the spiked chain will be doing so much more than the unarmed tempest. Even a tempest dual wielding punching daggers will be more capable (just with a smaller [W] die).
It's worth it for a Brawler if you ever want to do useful damage.  It's the only way to get +3 proficiency for unarmed attacks.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
A Ranger|Fighter with Tempest Tech as the hybrid talent and Mountain Devotee as the paragon path would seem to be pretty powerful using monk unarmed strikes as the weapons for its twinstrikes and twinstrike+ encounter powers. 

Any RAW problems you'll have should be solved by wearing two spiked gauntlets: this satisfies the requirements for weilding two weapons (for two-weapon defense, for example) while leaving your hands "free" to use your MUS when you actually attack.  Even better, of course, would be a gauntlet axe, which would give you an extra +1 to AC via the defensive property while leaving your hands just as free as the spiked gauntlets.
A Ranger|Fighter with Tempest Tech as the hybrid talent and Mountain Devotee as the paragon path would seem to be pretty powerful using monk unarmed strikes as the weapons for its twinstrikes and twinstrike+ encounter powers. 

Any RAW problems you'll have should be solved by wearing two spiked gauntlets: this satisfies the requirements for weilding two weapons (for two-weapon defense, for example) while leaving your hands "free" to use your MUS when you actually attack.  Even better, of course, would be a gauntlet axe, which would give you an extra +1 to AC via the defensive property while leaving your hands just as free as the spiked gauntlets.



There's still the issue of whether or not you are considered to have 2 monk unarmed strikes to twin strike with. If you only have 1, there is no way to make it both the main hand weapon for the first attack AND the off-hand weapon for the second attack, since you aren't wielding it in any particular hand to begin with (which hand you have free is not relevant since you aren't actually using that hand for the attack but are merely required to have one hand free to make attacks with MUS regardless of the limb you are actually using).
A Ranger|Fighter with Tempest Tech as the hybrid talent and Mountain Devotee as the paragon path would seem to be pretty powerful using monk unarmed strikes as the weapons for its twinstrikes and twinstrike+ encounter powers. 

Any RAW problems you'll have should be solved by wearing two spiked gauntlets: this satisfies the requirements for weilding two weapons (for two-weapon defense, for example) while leaving your hands "free" to use your MUS when you actually attack.  Even better, of course, would be a gauntlet axe, which would give you an extra +1 to AC via the defensive property while leaving your hands just as free as the spiked gauntlets.



There's still the issue of whether or not you are considered to have 2 monk unarmed strikes to twin strike with. If you only have 1, there is no way to make it both the main hand weapon for the first attack AND the off-hand weapon for the second attack, since you aren't wielding it in any particular hand to begin with (which hand you have free is not relevant since you aren't actually using that hand for the attack but are merely required to have one hand free to make attacks with MUS regardless of the limb you are actually using).



There is no definitive support one way or the other.  Both ways make sense from a rules and balance perspective.  Getting better attack bonus and damage in exchange for having no weapon properties seems reasonable.  Using MUS is never the optimal choice due to giving up weapon properties.  Not that MUS is a valid choice for an off-hand weapon (right?) and that implies you can have two MUS if some power lets you use two weapons, but, again, it is not an absolutely definitive rule.

I'd say that. given the current state of the rules on MUS, doing whatever the Character Bulder lets you do is prbabaly nest. 
A Ranger|Fighter with Tempest Tech as the hybrid talent and Mountain Devotee as the paragon path would seem to be pretty powerful using monk unarmed strikes as the weapons for its twinstrikes and twinstrike+ encounter powers. 

Any RAW problems you'll have should be solved by wearing two spiked gauntlets: this satisfies the requirements for weilding two weapons (for two-weapon defense, for example) while leaving your hands "free" to use your MUS when you actually attack.  Even better, of course, would be a gauntlet axe, which would give you an extra +1 to AC via the defensive property while leaving your hands just as free as the spiked gauntlets.



There's still the issue of whether or not you are considered to have 2 monk unarmed strikes to twin strike with. If you only have 1, there is no way to make it both the main hand weapon for the first attack AND the off-hand weapon for the second attack, since you aren't wielding it in any particular hand to begin with (which hand you have free is not relevant since you aren't actually using that hand for the attack but are merely required to have one hand free to make attacks with MUS regardless of the limb you are actually using).



This isn't a problem by RAW.  When you use the power, the game says "is he weilding two melee weapons?" the answer is yes (even if it's two spiked gauntlets) so continue.  You make attack one (which must be your main hand) and decide, for this attack, to use MUS (which the rules for Unarmed Combatant allow) which then checks "is the hand free?" to which the answer is "yes" and so it continues.  You make the second attack (which must use the off hand) and choose to use your MUS as your feature allows.  If you off-hand free?  Yes, it is, so the attack continues.

There's no problem here.
This isn't a problem by RAW.  When you use the power, the game says "is he weilding two melee weapons?" the answer is yes (even if it's two spiked gauntlets) so continue.  You make attack one (which must be your main hand) and decide, for this attack, to use MUS (which the rules for Unarmed Combatant allow) which then checks "is the hand free?" to which the answer is "yes" and so it continues.  You make the second attack (which must use the off hand) and choose to use your MUS as your feature allows.  If you off-hand free?  Yes, it is, so the attack continues.

There's no problem here.


Thanks for the walkthrough (though I suspect it may still be unpalatable to some of the more lactose-intolerant DM's out there).
A Ranger|Fighter with Tempest Tech as the hybrid talent and Mountain Devotee as the paragon path would seem to be pretty powerful using monk unarmed strikes as the weapons for its twinstrikes and twinstrike+ encounter powers. 

Any RAW problems you'll have should be solved by wearing two spiked gauntlets: this satisfies the requirements for weilding two weapons (for two-weapon defense, for example) while leaving your hands "free" to use your MUS when you actually attack.  Even better, of course, would be a gauntlet axe, which would give you an extra +1 to AC via the defensive property while leaving your hands just as free as the spiked gauntlets.



There's still the issue of whether or not you are considered to have 2 monk unarmed strikes to twin strike with. If you only have 1, there is no way to make it both the main hand weapon for the first attack AND the off-hand weapon for the second attack, since you aren't wielding it in any particular hand to begin with (which hand you have free is not relevant since you aren't actually using that hand for the attack but are merely required to have one hand free to make attacks with MUS regardless of the limb you are actually using).



This isn't a problem by RAW.  When you use the power, the game says "is he weilding two melee weapons?" the answer is yes (even if it's two spiked gauntlets) so continue.  You make attack one (which must be your main hand) and decide, for this attack, to use MUS (which the rules for Unarmed Combatant allow) which then checks "is the hand free?" to which the answer is "yes" and so it continues.  You make the second attack (which must use the off hand) and choose to use your MUS as your feature allows.  If you off-hand free?  Yes, it is, so the attack continues.

There's no problem here.



What you are saying is equivalent to saying you can wield two shortswords and make both attacks of twin strike with just one of them, which is obviously incorrect.
A Ranger|Fighter with Tempest Tech as the hybrid talent and Mountain Devotee as the paragon path would seem to be pretty powerful using monk unarmed strikes as the weapons for its twinstrikes and twinstrike+ encounter powers. 

Any RAW problems you'll have should be solved by wearing two spiked gauntlets: this satisfies the requirements for weilding two weapons (for two-weapon defense, for example) while leaving your hands "free" to use your MUS when you actually attack.  Even better, of course, would be a gauntlet axe, which would give you an extra +1 to AC via the defensive property while leaving your hands just as free as the spiked gauntlets.



There's still the issue of whether or not you are considered to have 2 monk unarmed strikes to twin strike with. If you only have 1, there is no way to make it both the main hand weapon for the first attack AND the off-hand weapon for the second attack, since you aren't wielding it in any particular hand to begin with (which hand you have free is not relevant since you aren't actually using that hand for the attack but are merely required to have one hand free to make attacks with MUS regardless of the limb you are actually using).



This isn't a problem by RAW.  When you use the power, the game says "is he weilding two melee weapons?" the answer is yes (even if it's two spiked gauntlets) so continue.  You make attack one (which must be your main hand) and decide, for this attack, to use MUS (which the rules for Unarmed Combatant allow) which then checks "is the hand free?" to which the answer is "yes" and so it continues.  You make the second attack (which must use the off hand) and choose to use your MUS as your feature allows.  If you off-hand free?  Yes, it is, so the attack continues.

There's no problem here.



What you are saying is equivalent to saying you can wield two shortswords and make both attacks of twin strike with just one of them, which is obviously incorrect.



No, he's not saying that.  He's saying that you can use one hand for the first strike, and the second hand (or foot, or head, or whatever, since it's an UNARMED STRIKE) as the other.  It's perfectly legal to use twin strike in that manner, IMO.

The only thing that is up for debate is whether or not Unarmed Strike means "your entire body is a single weapon" or "every part of your body is a discrete weapon."  You're treating Unarmed Strike in the former, while I see no problem with treating US as the latter.  It's not going to break the game.

Salla, on minions: I typically use them as encounter filler. 'I didn't quite fill out the XP budget, not enough room left for a decent near-level monster ... sprinkle in a few minions'. Kind of like monster styrofoam packing peanuts.
Its not actually that bad, even if he can a 1d10 off hand weapon that he can dual weild for two feats, since you can pick up double sword, which is 1d6 and is defensive, and the you can  pick up moonlight blade, allows to attack reflex with dual strike, and deft blade at paragon so it really depends on how often he can use dual strike lol.
Since the thread was necromanced, I'll chime in again.

The character that I have in LFR which has this setup does not have Dual-Strike or Twin Strike.  He has Knockdown Assault and Grappling Strike.  He has some multiattacks but they are encounter powers, so not game breaking.

I also get around the "no weapon properties on MUS" by using a Ki Focus (Ghost Strike, in this case.)  It's thematic, at any rate... 

 
Mand casts:

Rebuke Undead
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Mand casts:

Rebuke Undead



The problem here is that the thread isn't undead.  Sure, it's been brough back from the dead, but it's not undead.  It's just no longer dead.  So, Rebuke Undead does nothing to it.  Sorry.  :P
You can just wear two unenchanted spiked gauntlets. Grats, you are now dual-wielding, and can choose to attack with MUS each time.

Should bementioned, since no one said it in the thread pre-necro. RAW solved.