Ruling on shuffling your library. Are there any?

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Ruling on shuffling your library. Are there any?
Q(-,-Q)  O(-,-)O  (D-,-)D


Ruling on shuffling your library. Are there any?


When you're done, your library needs to be sufficiently random.  However you make that happen is fine.
 
You must present your opponent a shuffled deck. Shuffled meaning randomized.

Alot of people mana weave (alternate between lands and nonland cards) and think they've shuffled thier deck, they haven't.

There's no offical way to shuffle a deck, but whatever method you use, you have to ensure that you completely randomize your deck.

Another problem is pile shuffling, where you divy out your cards into piles and combine these piles. This isn't shuffling since if one knows the make up of a deck before hand, you know the make up of the deck after you pile shuffle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is there a specific reason you are asking?
… and then, the squirrels came.
Q(-,-Q)  O(-,-)O  (D-,-)D


Ruling on shuffling your library. Are there any?


When you're done, your library needs to be sufficiently random.  However you make that happen is fine.
 




random as in cant sort hand and graveyard?
You must present your opponent a shuffled deck. Shuffled meaning randomized.

Alot of people mana weave (alternate between lands and nonland cards) and think they've shuffled thier deck, they haven't.

There's no offical way to shuffle a deck, but whatever method you use, you have to ensure that you completely randomize your deck.

Another problem is pile shuffling, where you divy out your cards into piles and combine these piles. This isn't shuffling since if one knows the make up of a deck before hand, you know the make up of the deck after you pile shuffle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is there a specific reason you are asking?



then why did they call it library

I don't understand your last two posts. Mind restating your question?

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

if there are no "written rule" on how to shuffle my deck then who are you to tell me how to shuffle?
BTW do tokens stay in the graveyard or are they removed from game after dieing.
Sufficiently random means that neither you nor your opponent can reasonably have any significant information about the ordering of its contents.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

BTW do tokens stay in the graveyard or are they removed from game after dieing.

Neither. They go to the graveyard, and then cease to exist immediately after doing so. (This isn't the same thing as being exiled.)

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

if there are no "written rule" on how to shuffle my deck then who are you to tell me how to shuffle?


Outside of a tournament, your friends will tell you if they feel you haven't shuffled sufficiently. You then have the option of shuffling better, or looking like a cheating d-bag.

In a tournament, there are tournament rules which cover how to determine if a library is sufficiently shuffled, and if your opponent is not satisfied with your shuffling, he can call a judge to make it happen.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

then technically you cannot build a deck you would first have to put a blind fold on and sleave em w/o looking.

then technically you cannot build a deck you would first have to put a blind fold on and sleave em w/o looking.


Aside from being absurd, this isn't even technically correct. You can have all the information you want on the contents of a deck, but you must not know the ORDER of its contents.


Here is the actual rule from the Comprehensive Rules:


701.16a. To shuffle a library or a face-down pile of cards, randomize the cards within it so that no player knows their order.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

and i would tell the judge to **** off because there are no written rule on shuffling or I havent seen through research or havent been told by trollers.


That would earn you a well-deserved DQ.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

well other than not looking at the face of the card to know what card is where there are no rules
just found. TY
Be aware, also, that at the beginning of the game, after you shuffle your deck, your opponent has the option to cut or shuffle it to his/her own satisfaction. If you don't shuffle, they can still shuffle it thuroughly.

Also, being a smartass about the rules is a good way to get DQed at tournaments and make people not want to play with you. 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

There's rules about shuffling.
Here
 is the MTR.  Read section 3.9, "Card Shuffling"
Here
 is the IPG.  Read section 4.4, "Tournament Error — Insufficient Shuffling".

Here's a short quote from that:
"If the insufficient shuffling was intentional, the infraction is Cheating — Manipulation of Game Materials." 
Cheating means DQ at any level of play.
DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon [c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
This isn't a hard consept. You can't know what order your cards are in. You can't have any kind of pattern.


If you are looking for a specific way to shuffle, I'll give you one. But you don't HAVE to do it in this way, just anyway they are randomized.


-Flip your deck FACE DOWN so you can't see them.
-Seperate the cards into 9 piles, one card at a time. (FACE DOWN)
-After all cards are sorted in this way, mix any of the piles with eachother by pushing them together, making the piles mix together into one. Not just stacking them on top of eachother. Do this until you have one pile again. (Cards should be FACE DOWN at all times)
-Then alterante between cutting the deck (which means taking about half, or some other sizable fraction of the deck off the top and putting it on the bottom) and seperating the deck into to piles (don't have to be exactly even, just eyeball it as if you are cutting the deck) and pushing the two piles together so they "interlock" into one.


They should be FACE DOWN through this whole process.      
    

if there are no "written rule" on how to shuffle my deck then who are you to tell me how to shuffle?


Outside of a tournament, your friends will tell you if they feel you haven't shuffled sufficiently. You then have the option of shuffling better, or looking like a cheating d-bag.

In a tournament, there are tournament rules which cover how to determine if a library is sufficiently shuffled, and if your opponent is not satisfied with your shuffling, he can call a judge to make it happen.



In a tournament, if you feel that your opponent did not shuffle the deck (e.g. they did the pile-shuffle that doesn't randomize at all, and you recently pondered or similar, so you know those cards are going to be near the top), is there a problem with you shuffling it and then presenting it to them again? If the opponent always expects to be the last to shuffle (which is more than reasonable), but always shuffles in a manner that does not randomize the deck (e.g. pile shuffling), can you get a judge to force the opponent to shuffle the deck via some other means? If your deck has a lot of shuffle mechanics, calling a judge to shuffle once wouldn't exactly fix the problem. Or it would just be a lot of judge calling.
In theory, you should present your oponnent already shuffled deck (sufficiently randomized), so technically it does not matter what he/she does with it. It's just for their comfort.
In a tournament, if you feel that your opponent did not shuffle the deck (e.g. they did the pile-shuffle that doesn't randomize at all, and you recently pondered or similar, so you know those cards are going to be near the top), is there a problem with you shuffling it and then presenting it to them again? If the opponent always expects to be the last to shuffle (which is more than reasonable), but always shuffles in a manner that does not randomize the deck (e.g. pile shuffling), can you get a judge to force the opponent to shuffle the deck via some other means? If your deck has a lot of shuffle mechanics, calling a judge to shuffle once wouldn't exactly fix the problem. Or it would just be a lot of judge calling.



You are responsible for shuffling your deck, which as pointed out in the definition before means no player knows the order of the cards.  So if you have shuffled sufficiently, then it shouldn't matter what they do to shuffle, since they aren't supposed to know the order either.  They get to shuffle so that they can "keep you honest".

By presenting a deck to your opponent, you are stating that you have sufficiently randomized it.  If you feel your opponent is presenting you a deck that is not randomized, call a judge.  At competitive and professional REL, this is a Warning for Tournament Error-Insufficent Shuffling.  At regular REL, the judge would probably tell them to make sure that they shuffle better.

Shuffling your opponents deck is not just for comfort.  It is to ensure that your opponent didn't cheat by fake shuffling.  People who are very good with slight of hand tricks can make a fake shuffle look very real.  At higher REL, shuffling your opponents deck is required.
DCI Level 1 Judge Please autocard: [c]Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon[/c] = Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon [c=Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]Skittles[/c] = Skittles Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
This whole thread smells a lot like trolling to me. 

If you are looking for a serious answer:



Players are expected to shuffle their deck thoroughly when it is required and are expected to have the skill and understanding of randomization to do so. However, as the opponent has the opportunity to shuffle after the player does, the potential for advantage is lowered if tournament policy is followed.

Any time cards in a deck could be seen, including during shuffling, it is no longer shuffled, even if the player only knows the position of one or two cards. Players are expected to take care in shuffling not to reveal cards to themselves, their teammates, or their opponents.

A player should shuffle his or her deck using multiple methods. Patterned pile-shuffling alone is not sufficient. Any manipulation, weaving, or stacking prior to randomization is acceptable, as long as the deck is thoroughly shuffled afterwards. 


 

There ya go. About as clear as it gets, and better still, it's the official document a judge would use to determine if you have sufficiently shuffled. 

This means that a couple of overhanded shuffles will not be considered sufficient. Pile shuffling by itself wouldn't not be sufficient. A couple of riffle shuffles aren't sufficient.

My personal shuffling routine is... between games

Pile shuffle in to 7 stacks randomly restacking them
Riffle Shuffle 5 times
Overhand shuffle 3 times.

After a search of the deck, I:

Riffle Shuffle 3 times
Overhand shuffle 3 times
and cut in to 3 piles.

I riffle shuffle my opponent's deck with 4 riffles, and to avoid possible revealing of their cards, I will cut in to 3 piles, since overhanded shuffling can have a higher chance of flipping cards. 

Not once have I ever been accused of insufficient shuffling, so I guess most people consider that sufficient  

DCI Rules Advisor 06/15/2011

 

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