2nd Level Divine Spell at 1st level?

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I know there are ways to get an arcane spell caster a second level spell at 1st level, but is there any way to do so for a 1st level character to get a 2nd level Divine spell? 

The way cannot use Taint, nor any material from UA/BoVD/BoED or any setting specific material. 
Please tell us the whole story.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

There may be ways for specific spells, and depending on what you want, a Krau illumian might do the trick. But I need to know what you're trying to do to be sure.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Well, thats pretty much all of the story, lol. DM says we can use any book except the three I listed in my first book and any setting specific material. We can also use Dragon/Dungeon Magazine material as well.

If my end goal is the concern... I'm trying to make a character that can qualify for the Walker of the Wastes PrC at level 1 and thus be able to start it at level 2. Walker of the Wastes is a PrC from Sandstorm, pg 89. It requires the feat Heat Endurance as well as the ability to cast at least three spells from the Sand or Thirst domains as Divine spells.
Krau will not work that way: the requirements say three separate domain spells, not 2nd level divine spells.

There are feats in Dragon that give super theurge flexibility. Combine with Precocious Apprentice and it might work.

Another thought is Versatile Spellcasting in Races of the Dragon. You need to cast spontaneously to do it, but clerics already do that with heals or Domain Spontaneity. The feat lets you expend 2 slots of one level to cast a spell you know from the next one. Clerics know all of their spells, so...

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Krau will not work that way: the requirements say three separate domain spells, not 2nd level divine spells.



Not usre what that means... If I take both thirst and sand, I'll have two. Then, through means I'm reaching for here, if I can grab a second level spell I could grab Desicate. Desicate is on the normal cleric spell list while at the same time being in the Sand Domain.

Precocious Apprentice wont work as it says Arcane spells and these need to be Divine. I think you might have something with Versatile Spellcasting though. I'll have to see if I can pass that by the DM, as the req is only the ability to cast and not the power to cast it whenever.
Krau illumians can cast spells with an augmented spell level. In fact, if they have Improved Sigil (krau), sanctum spell, and Militia (flaws needed), they can enter Eldritch Knight as their second level.

Versatile doesn't say you have to be high enough level. You do need the slots and to know the spell.

I meant using something like Southern Magician and Precocious Apprentice to cast an arcane spell from those domains as a divine spell. There are probably other theurge feats there that would do the trick.

Likewise, you might be able to.cheese it with Anyspell.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Well, Southern Magician is from a campaign setting specific book isn't it? So I can't use that... I think, whatever method I use, it needs to be done only using one feat, as the other would have to be Heat Endurance.
I keep saying LIKE Southern Magician. Dragon WILL have other (obscene) theurge feats that may allow it. (Theurge = multiple casting classes poured together).


See if your DM allows Versatile Caster to let a sorcerer apply Still Spell to his highest level spell known. (The feat is silent about if it works.) If he does, you can use it here, as you give up two 1st level slots to cast a 2nd that you know, and a clerics spells known are the same as his spell list, and that list is augmented by domains.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

actually a silented Spell is still a spell of his original level ...

the "classic" trick  is to use a favored soul with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell ...
make one 2nd lvl spellslot and heighten any of your spells ...

on the other hand ... it won't work with your requirements ...

since the only way to get 3 spells from the said two domains, you will need "real" 2nd lvl spells ... and there is no trick, that could get you that on lvl 1 ...

lvl 2 on the other hand is a different story - you could (as mentioned above) use southerm magician to make you precautious apprentice spell a divine spell ... but that is as elegant as it gets ...

my personal recommendation would be to take 3 lvls of cleric regardless ... there is no simpler/nicer/more elegant/more likely to be allowed way to get into walker of the waste ...
Ask the DM to just waive that requirement. Its not like getting into that class at level 2 breaks the game in half. It gets  a couple of neat things, and then makes you undead. Letting people into it at second level shouldn't be a huge deal. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Or, adapt Precocious Apprentice to be divine.  That way you still have to spend a feat, so the DM might be more accepting.
I'm in favour of games where you waive all PrCl requirements. If I want a 10th level Holy Liberator, it hardly makes sense I'm Fighter2 Ranger2 Monk2 HL4. That doesn't make me much of a HL - just minority HL. It makes more sense for me to simply be HL10. Why can't all PrCl be like core classes?

Obviously there would be a few specific balance issues, but it really wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to the game.

And I'm not suggesting all games are like this. But it makes for a different flavoured campaign, and allows some neat combinations.
I'm in favour of games where you waive all PrCl requirements. If I want a 10th level Holy Liberator, it hardly makes sense I'm Fighter2 Ranger2 Monk2 HL4. That doesn't make me much of a HL - just minority HL. It makes more sense for me to simply be HL10. Why can't all PrCl be like core classes?

Obviously there would be a few specific balance issues, but it really wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to the game.

And I'm not suggesting all games are like this. But it makes for a different flavoured campaign, and allows some neat combinations.


Words do not exist for how strongly I oppose this.

First, not all Holy Liberators need levels in a class named "holy liberator"

Second, the mechanical abilities of prestige classes are often too powerful if they were available at the levels you're speaking about. This really WOULD make a huge difference in the balance level of the game, especially where spellcasters are concerned. (Sublime Chord is perhaps the most powerful example I can think of on short notice, but Shadowcraft Mage bears special mention as well.)

Third, prestige class benefits are often balanced out by drawbacks. Good luck getting into Fochluchan Lyrist or Magelord without giving up caster levels, for instance.

I could go on, but I'd rather not at this point.


HeirRakus, the simplest mechanical suggestion here is to ask your DM how Versatile Casting works with Heighten Spell and your highest-level spell slots. (I mistakenly said Still Spell earlier; I meant Heighten. I can't edit things on my phone.) This method is entirely within the rules, and it does not require you to beg him to houserule a patch for you and you alone. 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

 
Words do not exist for how strongly I oppose this.

 



Thats interesting, I am really in favor of this idea. Maybe not out of the box, but thats why thugsb said "Specific balance issues". 


I would say that all prestige classes could have their entry requirements thinned out. Id also say that most could have them waived entirely. 


SRD Alone. 


Arcane Archer

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Race Elf or half-elf. 
Base Attack Bonus +6. 
Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow). 
Spells  Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.


They want to be an arcane archer. They will take those feats anyway provided they are good. Drop the spells requirement. Say "This class doesn't give casting, you have to have some from somewhere first". With all that in mind you still can't get in before 7th level. I'd drop it to bab+4 honestly. Its powers aren't paticulalrly so good you need to wait till 7th level before they are approperoate. 7th level assumes you can jump between multiple books and can get a +1BAB/+1 casting class core you have to wait till 8th. These changes mean you don't have to dumpsterdive around


Archmage

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Skills Knowledge (arcana) 15 ranks, Spellcraft 15 ranks. 
Feats Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus in two schools of magic. 
Spells  Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th-level or higher spells from at least five schools.


Spell focus fits the theme. Ability to cast 5th level spells from at least 5 schools means at least 5 spells of 5th level. Thats fairly high power, but still pushes most PCs to at least the later end of the game. It also brings the class online earlier so it sees more use.


Assassin

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Alignment Any evil. 
Skills Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.


Special  The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins. Let them take whatever skills they need for their assassin path. Maybe they take poison, spells, bluff, who cares. Its spells require adjustments. As will most classes with their own spell list. I recomend giving those spells at the traditional wizard/sorc level. They work the same, just have their level changed and come online at the same time as you would expect. 


Dragon Disciple

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Race Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon). 
Skills Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks. 
Languages Draconic. 
Spellcasting Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation. 
Special The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class.


I still doubt you will see many people play one. Just note that if you don't have casting this doesn't give any.


Blackguard

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Alignment Any evil. 
Base Attack Bonus +6. 
Skills Hide 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks. 
Feats Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack. 
Special  The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else.  If you rejigger its spells, you can drop the BAB requirement. 


Duelist

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Base Attack Bonus +6. 
Skills Perform 3 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks. 
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse. All trash prereqs except the BAB. This class gets nothing that can't be given at level 1


Dwarven Defender

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Race Dwarf. 
Alignment Any lawful. 
Base Attack Bonus +7. 
Feats Dodge, Endurance, Toughness. All trash prereqs. Also rename Defender. People still won't take it.


Eldritch Knight

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Weapon Proficiency Must be proficient with all martial weapons. 
Spells Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells. Just say it doesn't give casting if you have none.


Hierophant

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Skills Knowledge (religion) 15 ranks. 
Feats Any metamagic feat. 
Spells  Able to cast 7th-level divine spells. Never seen one played. Might happen now, but probably not. Maybe for pure cleric builds


Horizon Walker

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Skills Knowledge (geography) 8 ranks. 
Feats Endurance. All trash.


Lore Master

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Skills Knowledge (any two) 10 ranks in each. 
Feats Any three metamagic or item creation feats, plus Skill Focus (Knowledge [any individual Knowledge skill]). 
Spells  Able to cast seven different divination spells, one of which must be 3rd level or higher. This class can come online level 1 and no one will mind. 


Mystic Theuruge

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SkillsKnowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks. 
Spells Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells. Again, if you don't have casting you don't get it.  Taking it at level 3 might have people excited about it. Might.


Shadowdancer

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Skills Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks. 
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility. Bring it on at level 1. Hide in plain sight might need to be pulled to level 3 or 4.


Thaumaturgist

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i'm actually al right with this one. Drop spell focus, and I'd be fine.


Would any fo those changes drastically upset the balance of the game? I don't think so.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Krusk, he said that all the prereqs would be waived and all PrCs treated as base classes, i.e. a 10th level character who is Holy Liberator 10. That is a very different proposition from what you're suggesting, which is simpler prereqs by and large. (I would be inclined to agree with you there in many cases, especially the poorly-designed DMG PrCs by and large.)

However, I prefer revising those PrCs, keeping the theme but ditching the mechanics for ones along the same line as late 3.5 PrCs. My own version of the Arcane Archer has been retuned for 6th-level entry as well (i.e. 5 base class levels before taking your first level of AA), although I did alter the class somewhat for a different role*. Likewise, my Dwarven Defender is quite a bit more mobile, and designed for 6th-level entry as well**.

Your approach seems to be the other school of thought - keep the PrCs the same but set the prereqs accordingly. Here's my thoughts on your suggestions:



  • Arcane Archer: Agreed wholeheartedly given the class as we see it. The BAB change certainly fixes ONE dumpster-dive problem while introducing another (see below; it's minimal here though), and your change may actually make it warlock-compatible, which I think is an interesting possibility. (See my note below.)

  • Archmage: Pretty much in agreement here with one caveat: I despise full-casting PrCs but can't think of any reason why an "archmage" shouldn't be one. 5th or 6th level spells would be my choice in an ideal world, where all caster PrCs followed the psionic model (i.e. give up a level of advancement at 1st, at least, to gain all your snazzy class features), but since the majority of caster PrCs are essentially super-gestalts anyway ("Yeah, you keep progressing everything that matters as a wizard AND you gain these cool features too!"), I don't think even 6th is plausible. Granted, the archmage is no Incantrix, but still...

  • Assassin: If you add in a few caveats to how you kill the target, then sure, I can see where you're coming from. A simple example would include "without being detected". (Then again, it's no secret I'm a fan of Assassin's Creed, so perhaps that's my bias showing.) However, it basically amounts to a rogue with spells, which is strictly better than the core rogue, which is why I think it needs SOME prerequisite.

  • Dragon Disciple: Hey, it was useful in a few very select circumstances, so I wouldn't be averse to retaining the Speak Draconic and minimum skill rank requirements just to prevent it from giving obscene ability score bonuses at levels far before you could expect good duration buff spells or +4 ability score gear.

  • Blackguard: I'm not following on "rejigger its spells". Personally, I'd drop the blackguard altogether and just tell players to take levels of Paladin of Tyranny, with a sidebar on falling paladins and paladin redemption to allow for the assorted paladins to switch forms (i.e. when your level 10 paladin falls, instead of taking levels of Blackguard and trading in paladin levels, you'd be a weak-ass paladin for a while until you got an Atonement or something and switched to a 10th level paladin of tyranny). This gives you a way to handle first-level blackguards without even needing to salvage that awful class.

  • Duelist: Sadly, I'm forced to agree in general. Realistically I'd prefer to roll it in with the swashbuckler and try to salvage the archetype from both weaksauce classes that tried it.

  • Dwarven Defender: Aelrynith will take issue with this - in his words, it's the tank PrC. You don't take it for Defensive Stance, you take it for +5 AC, very good DR/-, Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense all in the same class, which also has full base attack, d12 HD, and two good saves (one of which is Will, traditionally a fighter weak spot). That's actually a really good chassis, although it is strictly passive. People see Defensive Stance and get locked up on it, just like they see Frenzy and ignore Supreme Power Attack. Here, it's still too good at low levels, mostly for the DR. That said, see my note on it below.

  • Eldritch Knight: Realistically this class is always used for padding in gish builds while they build up prereqs for something else. Dropping the prereqs would only make it easier at that role, meaning everyone can go Wiz1/EK 5 to qualify for most of the really good classes with minimal CL loss, essentially dropping the core drawback to gishes. (EK actually already can be entered at level 2 (i.e. as your second character level), but doing so is very hard and requires a specific race and flaws, and doesn't get you that much beyond the Battle Sorcerer). I'd usually ditch it in general in favor of duskblades if people want swords and spells at lower levels rather than dropping prereqs as a result.

  • Heirophant: I've seen it used in exactly one circumstance, and that's used pretty much solely for CL boosts. Normally, about 80% of cleric PrCs are never played anyway - I seem to remember someone once got a CO award for using Evangelist in a build, for instance - but that's more a matter of having better options available. I don't think removing prereqs is the way to go here - I think hitting every divine PrC across the board with a psionics-style CL hit would be the best way to go about it. But I digress.

  • Horizon Walker: No, it isn't trash. The horizon walker is deceptively good, albeit overshadowed outside of core. Full base attack, only 1 hp/level less than a fighter, and decent skills should be enough to make anyone take notice, especially because the feat prereq can be bypassed easily with fighter or ranger levels, and some of the PrC abilities (especially Shifting terrain mastery) are still damn good. Your change would move Shifting to character level 5, amongst other things; at-will (with brief cooldown) party-wide Dimension Door is downright gamebreaking at those levels unless you give every basic city anti-teleportation resources.

  • Loremaster: Realistically I would agree with you, especially in light of the Archivist. However, again, I would favor beefing it up over canning the prereqs (if for no other reason than avoiding potential gamebreaking synergies introduced by prereq-free dip-friendly PRCs). It's more a failure of the class to capture the feel of a master of lore mechanically, than a failure of setting appropriate prerequisites for its abilities.

  • Mystic Theurge: You underrate the theurge, I think. Look at the theurge classes that came later that actually got people excited (most notably the Ultimate Magus, but also the Arcane Heirophant). What the theurge needs is synergistic class features, not lower prereqs (which make it ridiculously dip-happy).

  • Shadowdancer: You're dramatically underrating Summon Shadow (getting a 3HD shadow at level 3 is downright devastating - the only reliable low-level defense against an incorporeal, undead foe that cannot be turned is Magic Missile, and low levels is exactly when you don't have a lot of those spells! To say nothing about an incorporeal spy that's sentient and able to speak to you.), not to mention getting rogue special abilities at half the required level. The class should get a slight boost to match the prereqs, not the other way around. (Personally, I'd give it Tome of Battle advancement in Shadow Hand.)

  • Thaumaturgist: I'd keep Spell Focus. See, while it isn't all that useful on its own, it's the cost that makes Augment Summoning less of a no-brainer for summoner characters. Thaumaturgists get Augment Summoning for free. See the point?



Removing prereqs just makes these all dip-happy selections that ends up increasing the dumpster-diving problem in the long run, though - unless your defining trait is "To play a blackguard" or something, you're going to shop around to see what works for you. (Case in point: Spellsword 1 in every single gish build. Essentially no prereqs to speak of, and everyone takes one level of it for +1 attack and +1 CL). 




*
My version of the arcane archer is a little different: I give it slight casting advancement, full caster level advancement, Warlock compatibility, and limited martial maneuvers. Despite this, it still plays fundamentally like a mystic archer. I did drop the elf requirement, although elves and half-elves do get a few other subtle benefits throughout the rest of the class.

I'll be happy to share it once its finished. I'm working on a masters' thesis right now, so it's hard to find development time.

The odd bit is, I didn't read the Pathfinder Arcane Archer until after I'd written it, and we both honed in on more or less the same design space. Check that out for another interesting take on the class.


**
I actually had it up on these boards for a while, but it seems that it's been eaten by the board reorganization. The idea was that the basic defender was kind of like a frenzied berserker - you takeit for passive improvements to existing abilities (here, AC, DR, uncanny dodge and saving throws - all of which are passive abilities that modify numbers and prevent things from happening, rather than things that the player gets to decide to use), with its signature ability not actually being all that useful (mostly due to Defensive Stance making you so tough that enemies would be more effective facing anyone else, but also removing your ability to move, meaning that they can evade you with very little effort, especially once flight, Tumble, or teleports enter the game).

I didn't consider that very fun, so I redesigned the class more around Defensive Stance, having it function like a Stone Dragon stance. This naturally led the class to be a good counterpart to the Deepstone Sentinel in the ToB as well (which REALLY feels like a high-level Dwarven Defender should). I also cleared away the cruft of early 3e feats like Toughness, and changed the prereqs to:


Race: Dwarf.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Weapon and armor proficiency: Proficient with heavy armor and shields (tower shield proficiency not required).
Skills: Balance 8 ranks.
Feats: Stone Power, plus any two of the following: Endurance, Improved Toughness (CW), Shield Specialization (PHB2).
Martial Maneuvers: Two Devoted Spirit or Iron Heart maneuvers, and one stance from the same school or from Stone Dragon.

(Stone Power requires Base Attack +1 and a Stone Dragon maneuver; it's the only hidden prereq here (although if you opt for the SD stance, you can use that to qualify for Stone Power). There are some "stealth" prereqs, though - for instance, it caters a bit to warblades, but warblades lack heavy armor proficiency. Likewise, pure fighters don't get Balance by default, but Martial Study (Stone Dragon or Iron Heart) or a level in either Warblade or Crusader will cover for that.

Endurance is on the list for a few reasons; it's thematically appropriate and has been on the list since the get-go, and it often shows up on bonus feat lists, which encourages some players to think about alternate ways of entering this class (i.e. you could hypothetically do it with Ranger 3 / Crusader 2 if you wanted) or alternate synergies (i.e. it's one of the requirements for the thematically appropriate Deepwarden PrC, and for Steadfast Determination.), but as you only need two of the three it's not shoehorning the player to take it if they don't want it.

The other two feats are also appropriate choices. Improved Toughness, as far as I'm concerned, is Toughness, and as a tank you want a lot of HP. Likewise, Shield Spec is the gateway feat to all of the really cool PHB2 shield feats, and if anyone uses a shield well, it's going to be the dwarf tank. Realistically, these feats are the main reason why many players ever consider using shields at all; I wanted to encourage that slightly over the usual Power Attack 2-hander route. That's also the main reason Stone Power's there - it counts as Power Attack, so you don't need Power Attack to get feats it requires. Stone Power also works equally well with one-handed weapons, i.e. with a shield. Subtle reinforcement here, but reinforcement nevertheless. Interestingly, every feat I have mentioned (even Martial Study / Martial Stance, if you so choose) is a Fighter bonus feat.

I'm actually quite pleased at how well these prereqs work. You can enter this most easily as a warblade/fighter or crusader/fighter (by design; Fighter is the dwarf's favored class) although crusaders, warblades, and fighters can all enter single-classed without too much of a hassle. Dungeon Crasher fighter can pull it off as well, but probably has to give up some levels of Defender in order to take enough Deepstone Sentinel to make it fun. (Dungeoncrasher Sentinels were a popular combination - combine Dungeon Crasher with Mountain Avalanche and Dragon's Tooth to tackle people into walls even in the middle of flat plains.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I made that post in all of 15 min, so there are bound to be things I overlooked. Shadowdancer create shadows being a good one.


Horizon walker - I really like the class too. All trash in reference to its pre-reqs.  Dimension door every couple of rounds seems approperiate for level 5/6/7 ish. 


In general dropping prereqs is nothing but a power up, because people aren't forced to take crap feats, and wait until they are this tall to get in. Thats where someone puts some specific thought into each one and redefines them. 


Also Ael disagrees with a lot of what I say, so him loving the DD is no suprise. 


Blackguard - Rejigger its spells. Basically totally rework them so they are more like a bards. Yes you should just play a paladin of tyranny, but I was going through revising pre-reqs, not saying which of these should be cut in general. (see duelist)

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

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