10/18/2011 SF: "Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Shuffle"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.

As soon as I read about horde Magic, I went online and purchaced a lot of 100 Innistrad tokens from ebay. I'm sure this will be a hit with my playgroup, at least as a change of pace.
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To answer the first question posted in the article, if I were to make a Horde deck, it would be based around grazing animals and the like. You know, cards like Ironhoof Ox, Pillarfield Ox, Aurochs, Zodiac Goat, Flock of Rabid Sheep, Grazing Gladehart. For the Herd!
Variant format articles are always great. Listing the pros and cons of each one was a plus.

For Zombie Magic, I'd consider increasing the control zombie players have. I'd try something like 'zombie players must attack with all their creatures each turn if able, but can't attack their zombie masters. zombies may choose targets of spells and abilities, but their zombie master can counter any ability that targets the master or a permanent he or she controls. I think this would address the problem of players who lose control not having fun, because they retain a large amount of control in zombie form. Zombie masters are going to have about the same amount of fun, because they get a minion who messes up everyone else while being harmless to them, but zombies are going to have more fun because they can still decide who to attack and where to aim their spells. The only other change I'd make would be to give the zombies a better way to win. Under the current rules, I feel it would be very difficult for anyone to actually win a game after becoming a zombie; sure, you might mess someone else up, but winning yourself is largely unattainable. Some sort of scenario in which the zombies could unite against the zombie masters would be very interesting, and would definitely keep the zombies interested in the game longer.
Finally!  A worthwhile use for Relentless Rats!
Dragon horde! That would be very difficult to face (some goblins would probably have to be put in) but so much fun to be had!
Is it weird that I immediately want to make a horde deck that is 99 Dragon tokens and a single Flame-Kin Zealot?
Respawn Magic sounds amazing. I think it would be even cooler with an "items" pile that you drew from whenever you kill someone in it.
I have played zombie and respawn magic before and will keep playing them.

Some pro's weren't mentioned for respawn magic:
Sometimes not everyone in your playgroup arrives at the same time or some people want to leave early. People can join and leave respawn magic at any time. They simply take the 3 turns and then wait until the offical turn rolls around to their turn again to join the game.

Our rules for zombie are different:

Zombie rule



The Zombie rule is a rule that can be applied to most free-for-all types of multiplayer games. It ensures that all players can continue playing until the game ends for everyone.

  • Making a zombie

    • Whenever a player loses the game, that player will be inactive until his/her next turn.

    • If you caused him/her to lose the game, you may pay an amount of life equal to 25% (rounded up) of your current life total. If you do, that player will be your zombie.

    • If you choose to not pay this amount, bidding starts. You can choose to place the first bid. Your minimal bid is 25% life rounded up, should you choose to bid at any time. In turn order, all active non-zombie players can raise the bid. When everybody passes, the player with the highest bid loses that amount of life and the player who lost the game will be his zombie.

    • If no active player caused the loss of the player, then bidding will start with the first active player in turn order, using a minimal bid of 0.

    • If no player places bids then the losing player will unfortunately be required to serve drinks for the remainder of the game.

    • If any player other than you died during your turn, if that player was not a zombie, then you get a bonus. From the deck of all Archenemy schemes, 3 schemes are randomly drawn and revealed. You choose one of the schemes. For the remainder of the game (even if you become a zombie), you can set that scheme in motion as a sorcery (it is not a sorcery, cards that affect sorceries might not affect this). If you do, the scheme is returned to the deck of Archenemy cards.



  • Being a zombie

    • If you are inactive, you become active at the beginning of your turn.

    • You shuffle all cards you own into your library. Cards that are exiled remain so. You may search your library for up to 5 basic land cards and put them into play. Draw 7 cards.

    • The player who paid life for you is considered your zombie master/mistress. That player is considered a friendly player for all team play rules. Your one and only task is to help that player achieve a game win.

    • Look at the amount of life of your zombie master. You have the same amount of life. If your zombie master is inactive, look at his/her zombie master (etc...).




Note: These rules may create a chain of zombies/zombie masters. It is not uncommon to gain a zombie master as your zombie. In that case, the entire chain of zombies will help you achieve victory.
Note 2: Zombies can be killed and re-created as zombies.
Kamikazegerbil wrote: Coke Spill Level 1 Encounter Attack Power Trigger: You must be pouring yourself a drink Range: Close Blast 1D10 from Player Target: All creatures and objects within blast Attack: Any vs. Reflex Hit: 1d6 Fizzy damage and target is wet (save ends) Aftereffect: Target is sticky (save ends)
The Horde format seems like it would be too easy if players were allowed to build decks specifically to combat it.  For example, any player casting Light of Day is practically an instant win against the Zombie horde in the article.  Moat effects combined with spot removal, infinite combos, or multiple players running many Fog effects would also be very effective against hordes in general.

The format might work better as some kind of Sealed Deck variant where the players share a pool of cards.

It is already noted that Infectious Host is supposed to be Infectious Horror.  Much more terrifying.

Also, for the "this beats the Hoarde" people, it is a casual thing, usually vs EDH decks.  If you tune to beat this deck, that is kind of sad.


And for survey points, the Machines Hoarde

1) Terminator theme plays on a loop
2) Golems, Myr, Constructs, Juggernauts, Thopters, Wurmcoil.... Just getting the right balance will be hard.  But getting to use Titan Forge, Thopter Assembly, Conversion Chamber.. it feels a solid runner up to Zombies.  Also Construct token is a house.
3) There are tokens for it. 

For pointers to people playing Hoarde with the stock deck.  

Budget/availability concerns can be alleviated with:

Grave Titan -> Grixis Slave Driver (yes you play the Unearth next turn)
Army of the Damned -> Syphon Mind (you play what you draw), Moan of the Unhallowed (Flashback played immediately), or Tombstone Stairwell
Forsaken Wastes -> Rain of Gore or Everlasting Torment (you want an anti-lifegain card)
Bad Moon -> Nocturnal Raid, Dark Triumph, any other team pump. (You want the random stampede factor)

Rules clarity:
Pinging the deck is a quick way to win, so treat the hoard as if it has Shroud/Hexproof
Mill also works very well.
Batterskull is probably the best 'fair' card against the deck.  It makes games too easy.

 
Respawn is something I've wanted to try for a while - whenever I know enough casual MtG players to try it out with. Variant 3 is something I'll probably skip over.

Horde MtG sounds great - I'll definitely give it a go! Making all creatures attack every turn cleanly solves the blocking 'problem' - no need for complicated rules governing whom the AI will block. If Wizards sold some sort of Horde intro pack, I'd definitely buy it if it were £20 or less for the 100-card 'deck'. As is given that I don't want to get all those tokens/cards, I might play this with some sort of shared deck for players and proxies for the horde.

Maybe making up some sort of drafting rule so you have control over the cards in your hand. Maybe each turn you draw 2x the number of players, someone gives each player a card and the remainder are out of the game. The 'divider' would swap around each turn. Or maybe each player just picks for themselves, starting with a different player each 'turn'. Then the other half are out the game. (Not exiled - they really won't ever return.)

edit: I think that with a shared-deck variant, a cool way to determine opening hand would be to draw 14 cards each, draft them like booster draft, then choose 7 of your 14 to be your opening hand. Other cards are out the game. This would allow folk to choose their colour and prevent colour-screw a bit. Lands are part of the shared deck and need to be drafted.
I love the horde magic idea! I've played archenemy a few times... and honestly was a bit underwhelmed... our friend who was generally archenemy (mainly because he was the one everyone teamed up against during multiplayer games...) enjoyed it as he was finally able to win the 3 on 1.

The horde magic variant is awesome and I can't wait to make a bunch of different horde decks!

I like the first respawn but I think one inherent flaw is the number of turns you get when you respawn. I would think that if you were defeated after a multiplayer game had gone on for 12 turns coming back in with three would keep you at a serious disadvantage. The first thing that came to my mind was to have the respawn player get a number of turns equal to the average number of lands each player controlled or some other derrivation. Unless everyone was playing Vintage or Legacy speed decks I just don't see three turns as being viable.

I honestly only skimmed Zombie magic... and eh... it's not a version I could see anyone that I play with really enjoying.

Horde and respawns I feel hit it out of the park. I wish we had come up with respawns while I was still in college. We used to have large 8+ player games and it always sucked to be there first to die...
Idea for horde deck:

99 zombie tokens
1 Grapeshot

Brutal..
Eldrazi Horde deck!



  Sporting It that Betrays, and all our lovable favorite Eldrazi Titans!



among other Eldrazi.       
I honestly have no idea what kind of hoard I would build. It would probably be a group effort, with cards coming from everyone in my playgroup.
 As for trying the formats, they all sound like a lot of fun, so I'll probably suggest them. My playgroup loves different kinds of group play, so this should be great.
Finally, I love hearing about new formats. It's probably my favorite thing that comes out of this column. Finding new ways to play my favorite game is awesome!
The horde deck has any amount of mana needed, and can always pay additional costs required (such as Sphere of Resistance and Propaganda).
All creatures the horde controls have haste and must attack each turn if able.


So giving the horde deck X spells or mana only repeatable costs or myr propagator is a bad idea



Just for kicks:

Angel: White 4/4 flying; Black 3/3 flying;
Ape: Green 2/2; Green 3/3; Green 1/1;
Assembly-Worker: Colorless Artifact 2/2;
Bat: Black 1/1 Flying;
Bear: Green 2/2;
Beast: Green 4/4; Green 3/3; Red/Green/White 8/8; Green 2/2; Green 5/5;
Bird: White 1/1 flying; White/Blue 1/1 flying; Blue 1/1 flying; White 3/3 flying; Red 4/4 flying;
Camarid: Blue 1/1;
Caribou: White 0/1;
Cat: White 2/2; Black 2/1; Green 1/1;
Cat Warrior: Green 2/2 forestwalk;
Centaur: Green 3/3; Green 3/3 protection from black;
Citizen: White 1/1;
Demon: Black 5/5 flying;
Deserter: White 0/1;
Djinn: Colorless Artifact 5/5 flying;
Dragon: Red 4/4 flying; Red 5/5 flying; Red/Green 1/1 flying, devour 2;
Dragon Spirit: Blue 5/5 flying;
Drake: Green/Blue 2/2 flying;
Eldrazi Spawn: Colorless 0/1 Sacrifice this creature: add to your mana pool;
Elemental: Blue/Red 5/5 flying; Red 3/1; Black/Red 5/5; Green 4/4; White 4/4 flying; Red 3/1 haste; Green 7/7 trample; Blue 2/2 flying; Red 3/3;
Elemental Shaman: Red 3/1; Red 3/1 haste;
Elephant: Green 3/3;
Elf Warrior: Green 1/1; Green/White 1/1;
Faerie: Blue 1/1 flying;
Faerie Rogue: Black 1/1 flying; Blue/Black 1/1 flying;
Gargoyle: Colorless Artifact 3/4 flying;
Germ: Black 0/0 (LOL);
Giant: Red 4/4
Giant Teddy Bear: Pink 5/5
Giant Warrior: White 5/5;
Goat: White 0/1;
Gnome: Colorless Artifact 1/1;
Goblin: Red 1/1; Red 1/1 haste;
Goblin Rogue: Black 1/1;
Goblin Scout: Red 1/1 mountainwalk;
Goblin Soldier: Red/White 1/1;
Goblin Warrior: Red/Green 1/1;
Golem: Colorless Artifact 3/3; Colorless Artifact 9/9;
Griffin: White 2/2 flying;
Hellion: Red 4/4;
Hippo: Green 1/1;
Homunculus: Blue 2/2;
Horror: Black 4/4;
Hound: Green 1/1;
Illusion: Blue 1/1 flying; Blue 2/2;
Insect: Green 1/1; Black 0/1; Green 1/1 infect; Green 6/1 shroud; Green 1/1 flying, deathtouch;
Kavu: Black 3/3;
Kithkin Soldier: White 1/1;
Knight: White 1/1 banding; White 2/2 first strike; Black 2/2 flanking, protection from white, haste;
Kor Soldier: White 1/1;
Lizard: Green 2/2;
Merfolk: Blue 1/1;
Merfolk Wizard: Blue 1/1;
Minion: Black 1/1;
Myr: Colorless Artifact 1/1;
Ogre: Red 3/3;
Ooze: Green 2/2 When this creature dies put two 1/1 Green Ooze creature tokens onto the battlefield; Green 1/1;
Pegasus: White 1/1 flying;
Pentavite; Colorless Artifact 1/1 flying;
Pest: Colorless Artifact 0/1;
Pincher: Colorless 2/2;
Plant: Green 0/1;
Prism: Colorless Artifact 0/1;
Rat: Black 1/1;
Reflection: White 2/2;
Sand: Colorless 1/1;
Sand Warrior: Red/Green/White 1/1;
Saproling: Green 1/1;
Serf: Black 0/1;
Shapeshifter: Colorless 1/1 changeling;
Sheep: Green 0/1;
Skeleton: Black 1/1 :B::regenerate
Sliver: Colorless 1/1; Colorless Artifact 1/1;
Snake: Green 1/1; Green/Blue 1/1; Colorless Artifact 1/1 poisonous 1;
Soldier: White 1/1;
Soldier Ally: White 1/1;
Spawn: Colorless Artifact 2/2;
Spider: Green 1/2 reach; Black 2/4 reach;
Spike: Green 1/1;
Spirit: White 1/1 Flying; Colorless 1/1; White/Black 1/1 flying; White 3/3 flying;
Squirrel: Green 1/1;
Starfish: Blue 0/1;
Survivor: Red 1/1;
Tetravite: Colorless Artifact 1/1 flying, can't be enchanted;
Thopter: Blue Artifact 1/1 flying; Colorless Artifact 1/1 flying;
Thrull: Black 0/1; Black 1/1;
Treefolk Shaman: Green 2/5;
Triskelavite: Colorless Artifact 1/1 Sacrifice this creature: 1 damage to target creature or player;
Vampire: Black 2/2 flying;
Wall: Colorless Artifact 0/2 Defender;
Warrior: Red 1/1;
Wolf: Green 2/2; Black 1/1 deathtouch;
Worm: Black/Green 1/1;
Wurm: Green 6/6; Black 6/6 trample; Colorless Artifact 3/3 deathtouch; Colorless Artifact 3/3 lifelink;
Zombie: Black 2/2;
Zombie Giant: Black 5/5;
Zombie Wizard: Blue/Black 1/1;

Variable tokens:
Ajani Goldmane
Baru, Fist of Krosa
Budoka Gardener
Devastating Summons
Elephant Resurgence
Gelatinous Genesis
Gutter Grime
Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet
Ooze Garden
Phantasmal Sphere
Phyrexian Processor
Phyrexian Rebirth
Promise of Power
Pure Reflection
Riptide Replicator
Saproling Burst
Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII
Volrath's Laboratory
Wurmcalling

Specific tokens:
Boris Devilboon
Chicken Egg
Chronozoa
Cloudseeder
Dark Depths (I know this one exists, I have one)
Drudge Spell
Flock of Rabid Sheep
Gemini Engine
Goldmeadow Lookout
Jungle Patrol
Kher Keep
Llanowar Mentor
Master of the Hunt
Mirror-Sigil Sergeant
Myr Propagator
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
Sengir Nosferatu
Skirk Ridge Exhumer
Sound the Call
Sparkspitter
Spawnwrithe
Splintering Wind
Sprouting Phytohydra
Stangg
Symbol Status
The Hive
Tolsimir Wolfblood
Tomb of Urami
Tooth and Claw
Tuktuk the Explorer
Wall of Kelp
Wirefly Hive

Temporary Tokens, should the temporary clause from their source apply even if they aren't retrieved from their source?:
Balduvian Dead
Broken Visage
Elemental Appeal
Elemental Mastery
Feral Lightning
Firecat Blitz
Giantbaiting
Hornet Cannon
Lightning Coils
Nacatl War-Pride
Puppet Conjurer
Rakdos Guildmage
Stone Idol Trap
Thunderheads
Tidal Wave
Waylay
Zektar Shrine Expedition


Good crap that took a long time...well what else did I expect trying to list every token variant I could find on Gatherer. XDDDDD

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From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

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Post #777

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MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

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MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

you forgot the 0/1 Blue Artifact Homunculous.
And the Artifcat 6/12 Trample Construct
And...  
you forgot the 0/1 Blue Artifact Homunculous.
And the Artifcat 6/12 Trample Construct
And...  


No I didn't.  Look at my stack under the title 'Temporary Tokens':
Puppet Conjurer
Stone Idol Trap

***************************************************************************************

From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

***************************************************************************************

Post #777

***************************************************************************************

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

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MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

This site has a nice listing of all tokens with card art links: magiccards.info/extras.html.
I'd like to see some theory around building hoard decks and making them scalable. Is there a science to this other than excluding X spells and such? What kinds of cards would be broken? How does the ratio of tokens to spells work out? I don't think I would know where to start, other than to build the prescribed zombie deck and play it for a while until I saw how potent it was.

Also, to those of you already suggesting changes to the rules, I suggest playing it first as described. I play boardgames and roleplaying games a lot and it annoys me when people want to hack the rules before they even try the rules-as-written. I make the assumption that the rules-as-written have been playtested, so I think it's best to reserve criticism and tinkering until I have had experience with them. One thing I know for sure, any changes I speculate I might make have NOT been playtested.
Kelly Digges' article on Respawn Magic was legendary because it had a great match report of a great game. I would've preferred three articles with reports of wacky games over this.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
Wonder how infect could work.....for a Phyrexian Invasion horde.....could be fun
I think Smallpox just found a home in my Horde deck. I love these cards that screw everyone up at the same time or do a ton of damage. Maggot Carrier and Smallpox each do a decent amount of damage. Infectious Horror is just beast. I also can't wait to see Nefashu on the Horde's first turn.
Wonder how infect could work.....for a Phyrexian Invasion horde.....could be fun


 
I had some zombie infect creatures in the horde deck I made but we treated it as wither because we were unsure if we wanted to worry about infect AND health. 

For the most part I see the Horde deck as a great way to test your own competative deck against an extremely fast creature deck. 

I did decide that based on the rules presented anything with flashback would be cast immediately after the first cast card revealed as if it was within the hand of the horde. Also decided that anything with an X casting cost was banned from the horde deck same as creatures with activated abilities. The only other way I could see activated abilities working is if they worked the initial turn the card was put out and alternately each turn after.

there is one thing that I would like some clairification on though. since this is a special variant would th tokens go into the graveyard and become a target for something like Ghoulcaller's Chant? we have been playing it as if they are targetable due to them being basically a 0 casting creature and not really a token. It kind of makes the chant useless late game with all the tokens some times though.

Running 3 Vengeful Pharaohs in the deck has been challanging to say the least depending on what deck I choose to run.

Thus far however the Horde deck has lost every match it has ever been in. Including a few 2 player game with the entire horde deck of 100.            
I have been trying the Horde a couple times and it's really annoying that no X costs can be played, as well as creature mana abilities (I'm thinking of Sliver Queen, as I'm building a Sliver Horde).

The first idea that comes to my mind, though, is that we could make the Horde have X mana available, X being the number of creatures the Horde controls. The problem is that then the Horde would have choices to make (make X/2 Sliver tokens or play Red Sun's Zenith ? Or an intermediate solution ?).

As of now, I have found an interesting workaround. The creature-counting mana would be allocated only to X-cost spells. The creature abilities would work as follows : 

1) Determine which permanent's turn it is to use its ability.
2) If the permanent can use its ability, flip a coin. If it can't, go back to 1). 
       - On heads, the Horde decides not to use the ability. Go back to 1).
       - On tails, the Horde uses the ability. Resolve it and go back to 2).

It works fine for Sliver Queen and such. But it's true that it can get pretty tedious when the ability has many possible targets, or when the permanent has multiple abilities, like with a... Sliver Horde. Then there are some Slivers I won't put in the machine for that reason, like Spectral Sliver.


Anyway I think every different Horde will have a different playing algorithm. For instance my Sliver Horde will *always* put cards back on the library Pulmonic Sliver, although I could flip a coin to determine whether or not it goes on the library (and no, I don't do it for tokens).

Anyway, it will take some playtesting before I can say I'm satisfied with those rules. I'm not pushing anyone into it. Just throwing my ideas in the salad. Maybe someone smarter will do something worthy with it


I'm not posting my Sliver Horde decklist because it's still very untidy. If someone has had the same idea (I'm sure there is) and has developed it further, I'd be glad to know about it.
Also, to those of you already suggesting changes to the rules, I suggest playing it first as described. I play boardgames and roleplaying games a lot and it annoys me when people want to hack the rules before they even try the rules-as-written. I make the assumption that the rules-as-written have been playtested, so I think it's best to reserve criticism and tinkering until I have had experience with them. One thing I know for sure, any changes I speculate I might make have NOT been playtested.



I don't know if I'm one of those people you're referring to. (I suggested players drafting from a cube as you go rather than using commander decks.)

There is one big difference between this and a board game though - it doesn't actually give a definite list of the toys. Sure, if I'd bought a box with a horde deck for the AI and a few Commander decks for players, I'd play as is. However, simply stating 'you play with your commander decks' is something fairly vague. Any deck I build will be inherently different to those it was originally played with. And since the sense of ownership is lost if folk don't bring their own decks, it makes sense to instill that sense of ownership through drafting. And setting up a cube would be a lot simpler for me than building 4 decks.

Not to mention the fact that this is something that a single guy came up with - it hasn't seen the sort of extensive playtesting that a AAA title would.

Thirdly, even with games that HAVE been playtested, there's always a case for simply tweaking the rules to suit your groups individual preferences. Not everyone has one set of preferences.


I don't know if I'm one of those people you're referring to. (I suggested players drafting from a cube as you go rather than using commander decks.)

There is one big difference between this and a board game though - it doesn't actually give a definite list of the toys. Sure, if I'd bought a box with a horde deck for the AI and a few Commander decks for players, I'd play as is. However, simply stating 'you play with your commander decks' is something fairly vague. Any deck I build will be inherently different to those it was originally played with. And since the sense of ownership is lost if folk don't bring their own decks, it makes sense to instill that sense of ownership through drafting. And setting up a cube would be a lot simpler for me than building 4 decks.

Not to mention the fact that this is something that a single guy came up with - it hasn't seen the sort of extensive playtesting that a AAA title would.

Thirdly, even with games that HAVE been playtested, there's always a case for simply tweaking the rules to suit your groups individual preferences. Not everyone has one set of preferences.



You're right. In my group we take the Cube to make sealed decks, as drafting is not cooperation-oriented, although draft is interesting too.
Finally!  A worthwhile use for Relentless Rats!



Back in the day... when I first started playing M:TG they were Plague Rats and it was one of the ways that we would test new decks. If it could take on a deck populated with non-stop Plague Rats then it could probably handle most creature-centric decks.

I actually came here to make the same suggestion, but you beat me to it
Hi I have a created a commander game format inspirated on Horde Magic. Its called zombie survival. Finished the article with the rules yesterday. take a look and join group =) 

 community.wizards.com/zombiesurvival/blo...