Kiri, The Poisonous Shuriken Storm - Ninja, Master of Poisons, Thief of Legend

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Kiri, The Poisonous Shuriken Storm

Ninja, Master of Poisons, Thief of Legend 


 
 
How the build works
This build aims to make full use of the new Assassin build (Ninja) along with poisons. It will primarily be focusing on using the Poisonous Shuriken at-will, but will also have a the fallback options of the other at-wills, should the situation demand it. With one daily poison being applied to 5 pieces of ammo, and only needing to use 1 piece of ammo to fuel the Poisonous Shuriken at-will, you can get a total of 15 shurikens (5 standard actions) per daily (or 3 shurikens if you opt for the 1 piece of ammo dailies). Not too shabby. With each of these attacks gaining the poison keyword, it seems like common sense to take the Master of Poisons Paragon Path (+Int to damage for weapon poison attacks, as well as other fun poison related tricks (auto-fail on a poison save? Nice!)). Thief of Legend tops it off for a fun finish.

KEY FEATURES
POISON DAMAGE


  • Poisonous Shuriken At-Will: Allows us to effectively use each of the Assassin poisons 3x more than usual. We will be using the "5 pieces of ammo" poisons for maximum effectiveness. This gives us a total of 15 standard actions of poison at level 9 (45 shurikens).

  • Master of Poisons (Poison Maven): Gives us +Int mod damage to any poison weapon attacks.

  • Envenomed Ki Focus: +enhancement mod to damage as an item bonus with poison attacks.

  • Venom Hand Killer: 2/3/4 feat bonus with poison.

  • Venom Hand Master: Ignore poison immune and resist.

  • Serpentine Bracers: 1d8 extra poison damage when Hidden. This can be used to continue to apply the above features after we have run out of Assassin Daily Poisons.

  • Mordant Weapon: If all else fails, use an Mordant Weapon. Can't use it with a Ki Focus, but everything else still applies.


LOADS O' STEALTH


  • Gnome: Racial feature gives us 2 Invisibility tools off the start.

  • Shadow Skulk: If we miss even one target when we make an attack while hidden, we remain hidden. Useful with a triple attack.

  • Assassin Utilities: Tonnes of was to get hidden or remain hidden or to move while hiding.

  • Armor of Dark Deeds: Keeps us with perma-conceal.

  • Assassin's Cloak: Roll twice for stealth.

  • Assassin's Cloak (Feat): Roll to stealth when you go invisible.

  • Glooming Call + all of the above = where is that guy?



Level 1 Discussion and Overview

Kiri, level 1
Gnome, Assassin
Guild Training: Ninja
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Noble Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.

AC: 18 Fort: 11 Reflex: 16 Will: 11HP: 32 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +12, Bluff +4, Acrobatics +10, Arcana +10, Perception +5
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History +3, Insight, Intimidate -1, Nature, Religion +3, Streetwise -1, Thievery +5, Athletics

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Ki Technique

POWERS
Assassin at-will 1: Poisonous Shuriken
Assassin at-will 1: Ninja-to Rush
Assassin at-will 1: Whirling Kusari-gama
Assassin encounter 1: Assassin's Strike
Assassin daily poison 1: Carrion Crawler Brain Juice

ITEMS
Leather Armor, Short sword, Shuriken (100), Hand Crossbow, Crossbow Bolts (20), Ki Focus, Kusari-gama, Light Shield

Gnome was selected for our race, for the stat bumps we wanted (Dex, Int) as well as two racial features that help use get hidden. Note that if you plan to take a different Paragon Path (Master of Poisons), you can easily take another race better suited to your build, and use a better array.
Assuming backgrounds and themes, Background goes to Born Under a Bad Sign (bland, yet effective) and Noble Adept (for when you really need to hit, or make a saving throw). Both are completely optional to this build. Alchemist was considered for this build (for a free poison, once an encounter), but the only Assassin poisons are considered for Poisonous Shurikens triple application. Guardian is not a bad call either.

Our first feat goes into the quite useful Weapon Ki Technique. Right from level 1, we will have both a weapon and ki focus equipped, so we have an always on feat bonus to hit. As we will be using at-wills for 99% of our attacks, we gain both the +1/2/3 damage against bloodied targets.
Poisonous Shuriken is the bread and butter for this build. Allows you to minion check, and makes sure your Attack Finesse doesn't go to waste. We selected Light Shields over Two Weapon Defense because of the fact that we are using the only thrown weapon in the game that doesn't could as a melee weapon as well.

Don't be afraid to use the other at-wills. You get full benefits with them as well, and once you are down to 1 or 2 targets left, you are better off with a single target attack. Carrion Crawler Brain Juice is chosen because the other 5 ammo daily (Nitharit Poison) applies a fairly weak ongoing damage effect, which means you might rapidly run out of targets to apply the poison on if mobs actually fail their saving throws.

Not a whole lot of strategy at this point. You have 3 at-wills (minion sweep, charge, double attack with prone), no reason not to use all 3. Your Fort and Will are bad, which is to be expected with a double reflex bump.



Level 2

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


New Assassin utility 2: Cloak of Shades


New Feat Level 2: Shadow Skulk


 

Magic Items (Expected GP = 1,920):


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L3 (680 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +1


TOTAL: 1,680


 

Discussion:


Cloak of Shades gives us a very nice Stealth option (that makes 3 so far!).


Shadow Master Ki Focus gives use 5 more damage against any creature we are hidden against.


Top that off with a Shadow Skulk feat, which will allow us to remain hidden if we miss with one of our 3 Shuriken attacks!


 

Amulet of Life gives us a much needed bump to NADs, as well as a the ability to spend 2 surges when we are healed.



 

Level 3

Changes:


+5 HP


New Class Feature: Death Attack


Assassin's Strike increases by 1d10 (2d10 total).


 

Magic Items (Expected GP = 2,560):


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +1


L3 (680 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +1


TOTAL: 2,520


 

Death Attack works wonders with Poisonous Shuriken. Perfect for finishing off those mobs in the single digits without wasting a full standard action. Assassin's Strike gets a fair bump (2d10 total now).


 

Flowform Armor gives us a free save, once an encounter (No Action, so it works against Stun and Dominate).



 

Level 4

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


+1 Dex. (21), +1 Int. (17)


New Feat Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)


New Class Feature: Nimble Drop


 

Magic Items (Expected GP = 3,200):


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +1


L3 (680 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +1


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


TOTAL: 3,200


 

Weapon Focus get's applied 3 times a turn, so that's pretty awesome. Keep in mind it won't apply to the flail end of the new double weapon. Executioner's Bracers because... well... you are attacking 3 times a turn...


 

Between Acrobatics and Nimble Drop, height shouldn't scare you at all.



 

Level 5

Changes:


+5 HP


Assassin daily poison 5: Bloodroot Poison


 

Magic Items (Expected GP = 4,480):


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L4 (840 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +1


L3 (680 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +1


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


TOTAL: 4,040


 

Not that we will use it, but we gained Bloodroot Poison recipe. Take another use of Carrion Crawler Brain Juice.


 

Gauntlets of Blood gives us another +2 damage versus Bloodied targets (so +3 total).



 

Level 6

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


New Feat Level 6: Nimble Blade


New Assassin utility 6: Darting Shadow


 

Magic Items (Expected GP = 6,400):


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L4 (840 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +1


L3 (680 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +1


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


TOTAL: 5,840




You gain Nimble Blade (+1 to hit with Light Blades with CA) and Darting Shadow (Move while hidden to a new location. You stay hidden if you have cover, conceal etc etc at the end).




Pick up some sandals with +2 to Stealth, Acrobatics and Athletics.





Level 7

Changes:


+5 HP


New Assassin At-Will: Hidden Stab


Assassin's Strike increases by 2d10 (3d10 total).




Magic Items (Expected GP = 9,600):


L8 (3,400 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L4 (840 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +1


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


TOTAL: 9,104




Hidden Stab (meh) and more Assassin's Strike (whoo!) this level.




Upgrade Shadow Master Ki Focus.





Level 8

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


+1 Dex. (22), +1 Int. (18)


New Feat Level 8: Sneak of Shadows


New Class Feature: Flawless Disguise




Magic Items (Expected GP = 12,800):


L8 (3,400 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L4 (840 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +1


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 9,784




Flawless Disguise (this + applying poisons to food = priceless RP heaven) gained this level. Sneak of Shadows finally taken (thievery, Sneak Attack once per encounter).




Keep in mind between Sneak Attack (2d6), Assassin's Strike (3d10), bloodied (3), Shadow Masters (5) and Death Attack (1-10) (and everything else), you can reliably execute a bloodied mob.




Rhythm Blade ups our AC and Reflex by another one (need to put away your shuriken and equip your sword). Not something you will be able to do every turn, as you will need to draw your shuriken to attack next turn, but if you think you will get an OA, or if the enemies are heading your way, put it on.





Level 9

Changes:


+5 HP


Assassin daily poison 9: Greenblood Oil




Magic Items (Expected GP = 16,000):


L9 (4,200 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L5 (1,000 gp): Amulet of Life +1


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 13,816




Another recipe, but again, take more of the Brain Juice. You now have 3 uses of the poison, each affecting 15 shuriken. 45 attacks!




Upgrade Flowform Armor.





Level 10

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


New Feat Level 10: Improved Defenses


New Ranger utility 10: Persistent Tail




Magic Items (Expected GP = 22,400):


L10 (5,000 gp): Periapt of Cascading Health +2


L9 (4,200 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Shadow Master Ki Focus +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 22,016




Improved Defenses gives us a nice bump to our NADs. Persistent Tail gives us a very nice way to stealth OUT of turn with only regular cover or concealment, even if we were hidden when we used it.




Grab a the +1 will helm and Periapt of Cascading Health.





Level 11 Snapshot and discussion

Kiri, level 11


Gnome, Assassin, Master of Poisons


Guild Training: Ninja


Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)


Theme: Noble Adept




FINAL ABILITY SCORES


Str 11, Con 12, Dex 23, Int 19, Wis 11, Cha 9.




STARTING ABILITY SCORES


Str 10, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.




AC: 27 = 10 + 5 (half level) + 6 (Dex) + 2 (Leather) + 2 (enhancement) + 1 (Shield) + 1 (Rhythm Blade)


Fort: 21 = 10 + 5 (half level) + 1 (Con) + 2 (enhancement) + 1 (class) + 2 (Improved Defenses)


Reflex: 27 = 10 + 5 (half level) + 6 (Dex) + 2 (enhancement) + 2 (Improved Defenses) + 1 (Shield) + 1 (Rhythm Blade)


Will: 21 = 10 + 5 (half level) + 0 (Wis) + 2 (enhancement) + 2 (Improved Defenses) + 1 (item) + 1 (class)




HP: 73 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 18




TRAINED SKILLS


Stealth +20, Bluff +9, Acrobatics +18, Arcana +16, Perception +10, Thievery +16




UNTRAINED SKILLS


Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, Heal +5, History +9, Insight +5, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Religion +9, Streetwise +4, Athletics +7




FEATS


Feat User Choice: Weapon Proficiency (Shuriken)


Level 1: Ki Weapon Technique


Level 2: Shadow Skulk


Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade) (retrained to Venom Hand Killer at Level 11)


Level 6: Nimble Blade


Level 8: Sneak of Shadows


Level 10: Improved Defenses


Level 11: Venom Hand Master




POWERS


Assassin at-will 1: Poisonous Shuriken


Assassin at-will 1: Ninja-to Rush


Assassin at-will 1: Whirling Kusari-gama


Assassin encounter 1: Assassin's Strike (3d10 total)


Assassin daily poison 1: Carrion Crawler Brain Juice x3


Assassin utility 2: Cloak of Shades


Assassin utility 6: Darting Shadow


Assassin at-will 7:  Hidden Stab


Assassin utility 10: Persistent Tail


Master of Poisons encounter 11: Blinding Dust




ITEMS


Shuriken (100), Light Shield, Executioner's Bracers (heroic tier), Gauntlets of Blood (heroic tier), Sandals of Precise Stepping (heroic tier), Rhythm Blade Short sword +1, Flowform Leather Armor +2, Periapt of Cascading Health +2, Circlet of Indomitability (heroic tier), Mordant Shuriken +2, Envenomed Ki Focus +2





Changes:


+6 HP


Strength +1 (11), Constitution +1 (12), Dexterity +1 (23), Intelligence +1 (19), Wisdom +1 (11), Charisma +1 (9)


New Feat Level 11: Venom Hand Master (Weapon Focus (Light Blade) retrained to Venom Hand Killer)


New Paragon Path encounter 11: Blinding Dust




Magic Items (Expected GP = 32,000):


L10 (5,000 gp): Periapt of Cascading Health +2


L9 (4,200 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Mordant Shuriken +2


L7 (2,600 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 27,336





Discussion:


As usual, Paragon brings us a huge bag of toys. The level 11 feature gives us +Int damage with weapon poison attacks. This means the 45 shurikens just gained Int mod. We also swapped out Weapon Focus (Light Blade) for Venom Hand Killer (+2/3/4 with poison), and picked up Venom Hand Master (ignore poison resist and immunity) as our level 11 feat. Oh, and we took the Envenomed Ki Focus, giving us an item bonus with poison attacks equal to our enhancement modifier.




Let's review what our 45 shurikens can do:


+Int (Level 11 passive)


+2/3/4 feat (Venom Hand Killer)


+enhancement (2) as item bonus (Envenomed Ki Focus)


ignore poison resist and immunity.




Ok, but what about when the 45 shurikens run out? Then, we use a Mordant Shuriken (we lose the item bonus, but keep everything else).




AP feature is weak, but not useless. (ongoing 10 poison on ONE target... boo...). The encounter power is pretty weak, but gives you a tool against a lot of enemies. Now that Stealth is less critical to doing damage, you can swap out some of your powers (or not, hidden is still CA)).





Level 12

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


New Feat Level 12: Blade and Buckler Duelist


New Paragon Path Utility: Persistent Poison




Magic Items (Expected GP = 48,000):


L12 (13,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +3


L10 (5,000 gp): Periapt of Cascading Health +2


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Mordant Shuriken +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 44,816




Another +1 AC and Reflex (still shield bonus, mind you) from our feat.




Auto-fail on a poison... That could be very nasty with some of the bigger ones.




Upgrade Envenomed Ki Focus and grab a Diamond Cincture.





Level 13

Changes:


+5 HP


New Class Feature: Improved Death Attack


Assassin's Strike increases by 3d10 (4d10 total)




Magic Items (Expected GP = 64,000):


L12 (13,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +3


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L10 (5,000 gp): Periapt of Cascading Health +2


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L9 (4,200 gp): Flowform Leather Armor +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Mordant Shuriken +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 58,016




Improved Death Attack... now 20 HP or less to auto kill. Tasty. Assassin's Strike goes up a bit more to 5d10 total. Backlash Tattoo for some out of turn fun, and Dice just because,





Level 14

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


+1 Dex. (24), +1 Int. (20)


New Feat Level 14: Shield Mastery




Magic Items (Expected GP = 80,000):


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L12 (13,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +3


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L10 (5,000 gp): Periapt of Cascading Health +2


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L8 (3,400 gp): Mordant Shuriken +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L4 (840 gp): Gauntlets of Blood


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 78,176




Remember how we had Light Shield (+1 Reflex/AC), Rhythm Blade (INCREASE shield bonus by 1) and Blade and Buckler Duelist (INCREASE shield bonus by 1)? Now that applies to Fort with Shield Mastery! +3 Shield bonus to fort. Fun!




Drowmesh of Dark Deed will give us near perma-concealment, for both staying hidden and just a passive defense buff.





Level 15

Changes:


+5 HP


Assassin daily poison 15: Black Lotus Extract




Magic Items (Expected GP = 112,000):


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +3


L12 (13,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +3


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L8 (3,400 gp): Mordant Shuriken +2


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability +2


L6 (1,800) gp): Sandals of Percise Stepping


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 107,008




Black Lotus does a bit more damage than Brain Juice, but lacks the slow.




Assassin's Cloak is not only fluffy, but effective. Shadowdancer's Gloves gives us a slightly more controllable condition than bloodied.





Level 16

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


New Feat Level 16: Assassin's Cloak


New Assassin utility 16: Glooming Call




Magic Items (Expected GP = 160,000):


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Mordant Shuriken +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Ring of Giants


L12 (13,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +3


L12 (13,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Boots


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability


L3 (680 gp): Executioner's Bracers


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 152,968




What. The. Hell. Glooming Call??? Ok, so let's review. You take damage. You teleport. You turn invisible. You make a Stealth Check (as per Assassin's Cloak FEAT we just picked up) to hide. You are now hidden.


Start of next turn. You lose the invisible from Glooming Call. No longer hidden, right? Well, remember Armor of Dark Deeds? Pretty good chance we still have concealment from that. You only need concealment to remain hidden. Repeat 3 more times. WTF. Awesome.




Upgrade your back-up shuriken, and grab Shadowdancer's Boots for some speed (as well as a bump to some skills from the set). Ring of Giants for a bit more damage on your crits.





Level 17

Changes:


+5 HP


Assassin's Strike increases by 4d10 (5d10 total)


New Assassin Utility: Shadow Coffin




Magic Items (Expected GP = 240,000):


L18 (85,000 gp): Serpertine Bracers


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Mordant Shuriken +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Ring of Giants


L12 (13,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +3


L12 (13,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Boots


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L8 (3,400 gp): Circlet of Indomitability


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 237,832




Another 1d8 poison damage against people you are hidden from. Whoo! It IS possible, at this point, to go back to your original Ki Focus for a slight edge on damage while hidden (because the bracers will add the poison keyword), but if you AREN'T hidden, you lose nearly all your modifiers. These bracers also make the back-up Shuriken a real last resort.




Shadow Coffin is just plain stylish.





Level 18

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


+1 Dex. (25), +1 Int. (21)


New Feat Level 18: Danger Sense




Magic Items (Expected GP = 320,000):


L18 (85,000 gp): Serpertine Bracers


L17 (65,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +4


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Circlet of Arkhosia


L13 (17,000 gp): Mordant Shuriken +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Ring of Giants


L12 (13,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Boots


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 320,552




Danger Sense gives us a the jump when we want it. Circlet of Arkhosia gives us the important saves at the start of the turn. Upgrade Envenomed.





Level 19

Changes:


+5 HP


Assassin daily poison 19: Lich Dust




Magic Items (Expected GP = 400,000):


L18 (85,000 gp): Serpertine Bracers


L17 (65,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +4


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Circlet of Arkhosia


L13 (17,000 gp): Mordant Shuriken +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Ring of Giants


L12 (13,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Boots


L12 (13,000 gp): Stone of Wind


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 333,552




You can swap a Brain Just for another Black Lotus, or don't, depending how useful you find the slow is. Grab a Stone of Wind for hitting with your really important attacks.





Level 20

Changes:


+5 HP


+1 to attacks, defenses, and checks


New Paragon Path Daily: Insidious Attack


New Feat Level 20: Toughness




Magic Items (Expected GP = 520,000):


L20 (125,000 gp): Ring of Agile Thought


L18 (85,000 gp): Serpertine Bracers


L17 (65,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +4


L14 (21,000 gp): Drowmesh of Dark Deeds +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +3


L14 (21,000 gp): Circlet of Arkhosia


L13 (17,000 gp): Mordant Shuriken +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Ring of Giants


L12 (13,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Boots


L12 (13,000 gp): Stone of Wind


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L10 (5,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 458,552




Gain your subpar daily from your PP. It can be ok, pretty much guaranteed an extra 20 damage on top of the hit. Make it fail once or twice? Not bad. Not great either, as it is ongoing.




Ring of Agile Thought gives you +will, as well as a no action daily to prevent stuns/dazes. Toughness because why not.





Level 21 Snapshot and Discussion

Kiri, level 21


Gnome, Assassin, Master of Poisons, Thief of Legend


Guild Training: Ninja


Uncanny Prowess: Uncanny Prowess (Intelligence)


Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)


Theme: Noble Adept




FINAL ABILITY SCORES


Str 12, Con 13, Dex 28, Int 24, Wis 12, Cha 10.




STARTING ABILITY SCORES


Str 10, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8.





AC: 38 = 10 + 10 (half level) + 2 (Snakeskin) + 9 (Dex) + 4 (enhancement) + 1 (Shield) + 1 (Rhythm Blade) + 1 (BB Duelist)


Fort: 34 = 10 + 10 (half level) + 1 (Con) + 4 (enhancement) + 1 (class) + 2 (Diamond Cint) + 3 (Improved Defenses) + 1 (Shield) + 1 (Rhythm Blade) + 1 (BB Duelist)


Reflex: 41 = 10 + 10 (half level) + 9 (Dex) + 4 (enhancement) + 3 (Improved Defenses) + 1 (Shield) + 1 (Rhythm Blade) + 1 (BB Duelist) + 2 (Snakeskin)


Will: 29 = 10 + 10 (half level) + 1 (Wis) + 1 (class) + 4 (enhancement) + 3 (Improved Defenses)




HP: 133 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 33




TRAINED SKILLS


Stealth +28, Bluff +15, Acrobatics +24, Arcana +24, Perception +16, Thievery +26




UNTRAINED SKILLS


Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +11, Heal +11, History +17, Insight +11, Intimidate +10, Nature +11, Religion +17, Streetwise +10, Athletics +13




FEATS


Level 1: Ki Weapon Technique


Level 2: Shadow Skulk


Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade) (retrained to Venom Hand Killer at Level 11)


Level 6: Nimble Blade


Level 8: Sneak of Shadows


Level 10: Improved Defenses


Level 11: Venom Hand Master


Level 12: Blade and Buckler Duelist


Level 14: Shield Mastery


Level 16: Assassin's Cloak


Level 18: Danger Sense


Level 20: Toughness


Level 21: One with Shadow




POWERS


Assassin at-will 1: Poisonous Shuriken


Assassin at-will 1: Ninja-to Rush


Assassin at-will 1: Whirling Kusari-gama


Assassin encounter 1: Assassin's Strike (5d10 total)


Assassin daily poison 1: Carrion Crawler Brain Juice x1, Black Lotus Extract x2


Assassin utility 2: Cloak of Shades


Assassin utility 6: Darting Shadow


Assassin at-will 7:  Hidden Stab


Assassin utility 10: Persistent Tail


Master of Poisons encounter 11: Blinding Dust


Master of Poisons utility 12: Persistant Poison


Assassin utility 16: Glooming Call


Assassin Utility 17: Shadow Coffin


Master of Poisons daily 20: Insidious Poison




ITEMS


Shuriken (100), Light Shield, Rhythm Blade Short sword +1, Cobra Strike Ki Focus +3, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Dice of Auspicious Fortune (paragon tier), Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier), Mordant Shuriken +3, Shadowdancer's Boots (paragon tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Serpentine Bracers (paragon tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (paragon tier), Stone of Wind (paragon tier), Ring of Agile Thought (paragon tier), Assassin's Cloak +4, Snakeskin Armor of Dark Deeds +4, Diamond Cincture (paragon tier)




Changes:


+6 HP


Strength +1 (12), Constitution +1 (13), Dexterity +3 (28), Intelligence +1 (24), Wisdom +1 (12), Charisma +1 (10)


New Feat Level 21: One with Shadow




Magic Items (Expected GP = 800,000):


L20 (125,000 gp): Ring of Agile Thought


L20 (125,000 gp): Diamond Cincture


L19 (105,000 gp): Snakeskin Armor of Dark Deeds +4


L19 (105,000 gp): Assassin's Cloak +4


L18 (85,000 gp): Serpertine Bracers


L17 (65,000 gp): Envenomed Ki Focus +4


L14 (21,000 gp): Circlet of Arkhosia


L13 (17,000 gp): Mordant Shuriken +3


L13 (17,000 gp): Ring of Giants


L12 (13,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Boots


L12 (13,000 gp): Stone of Wind


L11 (9,000 gp): Dice of Auspicious Fortune


L11 (9,000 gp): Shadowdancer's Gloves (paragon tier)


L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo


L3 (680 gp): Rhythm Blade Short Sword +1


TOTAL: 784,152


Sadly, Epic is not nearly as impressive as Paragon. Epic Destiny was taken because there really isn't a stand-out good option for Executioners ED. The Rogue/Ossassin ones rely too much on their respective striker mechanics to be useful to us. Thief of Legend gives us a double stat bump and a bunch of really fun stealth/thievery choices.


Grab an upgraded Armor of Dark Deeds, Diamond Cincture and Assassin's Cloak. One with Shadow feat lets us move through creatures as we move around. 

DAMAGE BREAKDOWN
Level 11

Assuming CA from Hidden (considering the amount we had spent on it and race, not unreasonable) and using a daily poison with Poisonous Shuriken.

To Hit = +21 vs AC
3 (Prof) + 2 (CA) + 1 (Nimble Blade) + 6 (Dex) + 2 (Feat) + 2 (Enhancement) + 5 (Half level)

Damage = 17.5
2.5 (1d4 shuriken) + 4 (Crawler Juice) + 3 (Feat) + 2 (Enhancement) + 2 (Item) + 4 (Int)
Conditional = 45.5
4 (Bloodied) +  9 (2d8 Finesse, once per turn) + 10.5 (3d6 Sneak attack, once an encounter) + 16.5 (3d10 Assassin's Strike, once an encounter) + 5.5 (Death Attack, not sure how to add it besides a 1-10 value).


Level 21

Assuming CA from Hidden (considering the amount we had spent on it and race, not unreasonable) and using a daily poison with Poisonous Shuriken.

To Hit = +32 vs AC
3 (Prof) + 2 (CA) + 1 (Nimble Blade) + 9 (Dex) + 3 (Feat) + 4 (Enhancement) + 10 (Half level)

Damage = 40
5 (2d4 shuriken) + 8 (Black Lotus Extract) + 4 (Feat) + 4 (Enhancement) + 4 (Item) + 7 (Master of Poisons Int) + 3.5 (1d6 Gloves) + 4.5 (1d8 Bracers)
Conditional = 72
3 (Bloodied) +  13.5 (3d8 Finesse, once per turn) + 17.5 (5d6 Sneak attack, once an encounter) + 27.5 (5d10 Assassin's Strike, once an encounter) + 10.5 (Death Attack, not sure how to add it besides a 1-20 value).





Words cannot describe what has happened to my formatting. I did the entire thing in WordPad, but for some reason that didn't work, so I copied and pasted it into GoogleDocs and back in, and this is what happened...

Anyone got any advice?

EDIT: For some reason, it isn't reading half of my "next line" commands in Note/Wordpad, and is double spacing everything in Word/GoogleDocs. FFS. Damn forums. 

Anyways, I aplogize for the difficulty to read. I manually going through and editting the entire post, it'll take some time.
From the author of the article:





Perico: Thanks! I thought there were so many things in the Executioner that were already pretty ninja-like it seemed like the right decision. Narrowing it down to just 3 ninja weapons was tough though!


Josiah: RAI, yes, a poison that covers 5 pieces of ammunition can be used for 5 shuriken attacks (even though the attacks can come in up to groups of 3 with the power.) The special exception is for poisons that usually only apply to a single piece, which can be used against all 3 targets of the power. I have the feeling it might get clarified later more officially since I’ve been receiving some questions on it.


 
So it seems that the consensus was right!





From the ninja thread. When the article author spells out how it is supposed to work, I'm satisfied.
so are Shuriken supposed to be ammunition, or are you just supposed to be able to coat 5 shuriken at once in a single use of a poison?  Or are you supposed to coat 1 shuriken and get 5 uses of a poison for that shuriken?

I'll be honest, I still don't understand what is being concluded, even though I've read and re-read it.

The assassin poisons that that it must be applied to a "melee weapon or one/five piece(s) of ammo". A shuriken is a superior RANGED weapon with the light thrown property. If a shuriken does not count as ammo, then it cannot have poisoned applied to it, as it is NOT a melee weapon, unlike most thrown weapons. ?.?

Even if that is a bust,  the Shadow Master Ki Focus, Mordant Weapon and Serpentine Bracers will all still function. Build just comes online a bit later.

IIRc, you can poison shurikens as if they were ammo
I hope Shuriken end up turning into special thrown ammo so I can buy ridiculous things like Shuriken of Transit and Firestorm Shuriken and Freezing Shuriken, Summong Shuriken and Dual Shuriken.

Literally a bag filled with various kinds of magic shuriken. 
I still don't see how you can treat them as a melee weapon. If they aren't treated like ammo, poison can't be applied, in any fashion. A shuriken is a weapon, but is not a melee weapon.

Isn't that end of story?
Uh, well, obviously I'm not happy with either of those. It has never make sense that shuriken's are a thrown ranged weapon (why make them thrown...) when every other thrown weapon in the game is melee, but thems the rules.

*sigh*


EDIT: Seriously though, does anyone have any tips for fixing the formatting? The last time I posted a build, Note/Wordpad -> forums worked great.

Also, how do you fix the title? I changed it once, not realizing there was a bunch more text backed up, now the edit thread button is gone...
So when I replied on my own thread, bemoaning the formatting, I removed the ability to edit the title/axe the entire thing.

Whoo! WotC Forums!

Yell
Now I finally think I understand. I'm not particularly concerned though.

The poisons I selected are not consumed on a hit. Regardless of whether or not shurikens are treated as a weapon or ammo, they are light thrown, so they return as long as they are magical. A single magic shuriken with an encounter poison (and Ki Focus) will last the entire encounter, which is better than 5 uses. They would need to completely reword how the "end of encounter" poisons work or put an additional clause in there. I honestly don't see how they COULD word it to prevent the "end of encounter" poisons working with Poisonous Shuriken, besides completely axing the move.

Example:
Magical Shuriken +1
4x regular shuriken (why not).
Envenomed Ki Focus +6
Carrion Crawler Brain Juice

Apply the Brain Juice to all 5 shurikens (if treated like ammo) or the magical shuriken (if treated like a weapon). Ki Focus the magical shuriken. Use that one magical shuriken in Poisonous Shuriken (it returns to be used after each attack). Profit?

Not that I think it is really that overpowered. Worst cause, for 2 encounters at level 29, you will be spamming daze. The heroic and paragon encounter poisons are really quite tame.
Rathyr, wouldn't Athasian Minstrel be a better theme, at least, for theme's sake? I mean, you gain the ability to conceal your weapons, and not to mention the loads of poison stuff, and the ability to attack from an adjacent enemy's square...what's not to love about that?
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
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The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
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28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
So when I replied on my own thread, bemoaning the formatting, I removed the ability to edit the title/axe the entire thing.

Whoo! WotC Forums!



You can always poke a VCL or an ORC to see if they'll lock it...
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Just pointing out that the feature has this text:

In addition, you have proficiency with shuriken and the kusari-gama, your Attack Finesse class feature also applies to kusari-gama and shuriken, and your assassin poisons that can be applied to ammunition can also be applied to your shuriken.



So why is there confusion about how poisons and shurikens interact?
how it works right now is it allows you to apply poisons to multiple shuriken.  Rather then just one.

That is how it interacts as of now with no more wording.


Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

i'm pretty sure shurukin is a weapon, not ammunition.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It doesnt matter.

Even if it only apply to 1 shuriken, since it will return, and the power specifically calls for only 1 of the weapons needing the poison to apply it to the three attacks you will get a encounter long 3 attacks with poison its simple as that.

All the one hit poisons only affect 1 ammo as well, and will work as intended, 1 power, in case of the shuriken throw its 1 power, 3 targets receiving the poison.

Its simple.       
im pretty sure the class feature lets it apply the poisons to Shuriken as if they were ammunition.

If your poison lets you coat 5 ammunition you can do that with your shuriken. 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Rathyr, wouldn't Athasian Minstrel be a better theme, at least, for theme's sake? I mean, you gain the ability to conceal your weapons, and not to mention the loads of poison stuff, and the ability to attack from an adjacent enemy's square...what's not to love about that?



I looked at it. It definitely is the more fluffy of the theme, but mechanic-wise, it doesn't really compare. The utilities don't compare to the Assassin ones, the starting encounter interferes with our shuriken spam, and the encounter powers obviously are of no use. If I had to pick a "fluff" theme, I'd go Alchemist.



Come on, is the formatting so bad that no one wants to comment on mechanics? 
Rather than post in the Ninja thread, I wanted to move this here for the specific build.

Wrist Razor's + Rhythm Blade = ?.? Is something that is on your arms ever in your offhand?

Also, it takes up your arm slot, which while isn't a problem until mid-ish paragon, definitely isn't going to take the place of Serpetine Bracers (+1d8 poison dmg when you hit someone you are hidden from). Feel free to post away on the build. Even with the Shuriken poison confusion...


Sorry, I didn't explain that too well.

Rhythm Blade goes on Spiked Shield, not Wrist Razors since that has the weird rules debate on it.  Wielded in the offhand like a normal light shield, Rhythm Blade should apply to the Spiked Shield.  Last I heard, you only needed shield prof to use it as a light shield, but I don't know if anything has changed about that

Magic wrist razors take up your arms slot, but I was referring to non-magical (which I believe do not take your arms slot).  Though whether they are considered magical when you ki focus them is another question...but the idea is you wouldn't need to swap out for a melee weapon.

The damage die downgrade sucks though...probably not worth it
That's actually a pretty good idea. It would be always on, and you could always make an OA with a Ki Focused Wrist Razor. The damage size is pretty irrelevant (only really need it for OAs, if you are going to attack someone melee, you can swap out for a short sword or rapier).

However, I try and leeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnn away from such things as using Rhythym Blade Spiked Shields without prof. I'd still just throw mundane wrist razors on for the OA thing (why not).

Also, to erachima's dismay on the errata thread... Again, doesn't explain RAW, but spells out *exactly* the RAI.







So standard disclaimer here: I am a freelancer who submitted work, WotC R&D takes passes through it, etc. and my answers are only based upon my RAI when submitting them and my rules answers are unofficial. OK, that out of the way… <img src=" />


If you use one of the Assassin poisons that lasts until the end of the encounter, you can toss 3 shurikens every round that use the poison when using the shuriken power. If you use a poison that only lasts for the next attack, you can toss the 3 shurikens with the poison when using the shuriken power, and all 3 will be affected by the poison that you hit. So your Bloodroot Poison can potentially affect up to the 3 targets in a round in which you hit them all, whereas your Carrion Crawler Brain Juice can potentially hit 3 targets every round until the end of the encounter.


Hope that helps.


 
I am going to start the long process of manually editting the entire build to make it more readable.

Frown


EDIT: Does anyone know how to notify a mod that you would like the thread's title changed? I feel like "Report Post" is the wrong way to do it.
Head over to Community Business and ask in the VCL Request Thread.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
That's actually a pretty good idea. It would be always on, and you could always make an OA with a Ki Focused Wrist Razor. The damage size is pretty irrelevant (only really need it for OAs, if you are going to attack someone melee, you can swap out for a short sword or rapier).

However, I try and leeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnn away from such things as using Rhythym Blade Spiked Shields without prof. I'd still just throw mundane wrist razors on for the OA thing (why not).
 



Yea, it's an understandably sketchy issue.  Seems to be a pretty strong case that light shield prof is the only thing you need though.  At worst, it means you'll just need to burn a feat to use a fairly lackluster weapon (at least it's a light blade)

Since you're pumping Int, then the Radiant One ED might be a decent choice.  Another +Int to damage (along with radiant/fire shenanigans), a rather strong revival feature, a very nice daily utility (though it likely prevents you from hiding), and a 1/day extra round of actions are pretty decent.  Really wish it had a stat bump though... Cry 

Have you considered races other than Gnome?

Edit:  I'm curious to see what kind of critfishing possibilities there are with this...only thing I thought of was Two-Fisted Shooter but that has AC and swapping issues   
Doesn't radiant one overwrite my poison keyword?
Balls! I be switching!
So jsut to be clear, Radiant One adds "Whenever you deal damage to a target that is granting combat advantage to you, you deal extra fire and radiant damage to the target equal to your Intelligence modifier."

This means my shurikens have the poison, fire and radiant keywords, assuming I have CA? 
So jsut to be clear, Radiant One adds "Whenever you deal damage to a target that is granting combat advantage to you, you deal extra fire and radiant damage to the target equal to your Intelligence modifier."

This means my shurikens have the poison, fire and radiant keywords, assuming I have CA? 

Yes.
So, what are some good tricks to add with the Radiant and Fire keywords?

I mean, MC, PP, ED all chosen... is there anything cheese out on?