10/12/2011 BoaB: "Heartless"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
according to deckbox.org:

Total deck value: $75.66
Very nice article. I must say that I'm completely in favor of the idea of offering us two decks, one for the most competitive budget player and another for the more casual ones. Well done. Now, if you did this for Modern it'd be even better.
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Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
JVL, why no Solar Flare, G/R, or self-mill standard variant yet?

never even got a chance to make a modern pyromancer ascension decklist before ponder and preordain got banned

How could you be so heartless? 
according to deckbox.org:

Total deck value: $75.66


well if you really want more budget, take out the dark slicks - play with all basics then you save yourself 40 bucks and the total goes under 50, pretty obvious, its not like hes making a deck with 4 lilianas, 4 snapcasters and 8 swords, - chill lol.
according to deckbox.org:

Total deck value: $75.66


well if you really want more budget, take out the dark slicks - play with all basics then you save yourself 40 bucks and the total goes under 50, pretty obvious, its not like hes making a deck with 4 lilianas, 4 snapcasters and 8 swords, - chill lol.

I'm not going to say that the deck isn't budget without the duals. I'm only going to say that the argument "Well, he's not running the four most expensive cards around as four-ofs means he's building on a budget" is pretty flawed. So a budget deck is anything that costs less than the single most expensive possible combination of cards?

Anyway, I don't see what Molten-Tail Masticore is doing in that second deck, honestly. It sounds like you plan on using it as an alternate win condition if you don't get a Heavy Arbalest, but considering you're going to be either returning your myr to your hand from your graveyard or sticking them on a Myr Welder, you're not likely to have enough creatures in the 'yard to kill the opponent with his middle ability.

But I do like seeing multiple decks in the article. I wish there were more of an evolutionary link between the two, like last week, but it's still better than seeing just one deck and a few match reports.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
Nice to see this getting some attention. I think Heartless Summoning has the real potential to be a deck, though i'm leaning towards combining it with another build-around-me card, Grand Architect, to power out some bigger, though less budget conscious creatures, like Wurmcoil Engine. It gives the deck a backup source of cheap, quick mana and extra aggression, not to mention freeing up your lands to play defensive spells or removal.
Necrotic Ooze to could go with Welder? Might be faster
I love the first list; the second one is alright. Droppin' fatties like that with the first one is just incredible.
I love the irony of the "happy brewing" close, when the purpose of this column is to spoon feed people cheap competitive decklists.  Why bother to "brew" when other folks are happy to do it for you?
i would love to see a Modern take to heartless summoning...
standard is not exciting enough and not really possible when you got a top tier anti-artifact card

i hav been thinking about the interaction between enduring renewal, heartless summoning, and perilous myr
...
using cards like these to find the combo pieces :  
idyllic tutor               finds 2
beseech the queen finds 2 or 3
shred memory         finds 2
spoils of the vault   finds 3
....
need ways to protect it though...enchantment destruction is not super common so turn4 kills should be fine

so we could have thoughtseize like effects to drop their disruption
and ways to retrieve a piece from the grave like auramancer
and protect it on battlefield greater auramancy or spellskite...
spellskite is especially awesome when you can drop it at no cost after dropping heartless summoning!!




I really liked the first deck, Heartless Control. My complaint against it, though, is there is no 1 drops, and the best card to stall until you can get going, Wall of Tanglecord is a one of. It should be a 3 of at least. Not sure what to cut. 

Though I love Myr, the second deck is boring and overly complex. Not in understanding, but in being able to execute it. Too many choices can have you making the wrong ones.

Can't wait for the match logs to return.

Any chance of creating a fog deck again? I would like to see how it fares in matches. 

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

When I saw it was "Heartless Summoning" Deck I was sure he was going to put some Myr Superions in there. Then when I saw him making a Myr/Heartless Summoning Deck I was convinced he was going to put a playset of Myr Superions! but he didn't... Why not!? It will be a 4/5 for zero with HS out. And with the Paladium Myr you can get it out fairly easily.
I'd never main-deck Sever the Bloodine over traditional removal (DB / GftT / Dmbr) that can be half the cost or less.  I'd -maybe- side it in against Solar Flare and the like which rely on Unburial Rites or Sun Titan to bring stuff back.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I do believe that Myr Welder/Heavy Arbalest is a non-bo:

301.5c An Equipment that’s also a creature can’t equip a creature. An Equipment that loses the subtype “Equipment” can’t equip a creature. An Equipment can’t equip itself. An Equipment that equips an illegal or nonexistent permanent becomes unattached from that permanent but remains on the battlefield. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)

***************************************************************************************

From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.

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Post #777

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MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."

***************************************************************************************

MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Why are you ignoring Myr Superion! What a great card for Heartless!

Flyheight, Myr Welder exiling a Heavy Arbalest doesn't become an equipment. It becomes a creature with the same activated ability text of Heavy Arbalest.
Flyheight, Myr Welder exiling a Heavy Arbalest doesn't become an equipment. It becomes a creature with the same activated ability text of Heavy Arbalest.


But isn't that still a bombo?

The Arbalest says "Equipped creature gets ...".
In other words, the only ability the Arbalest has is the equip ability.
Sure, the Welder can recombine one of the other 3 pieces of the combo, but not the Arbalest.

Also, in the first deck it's said how Perilous Myr, Glissa and Summoning kills all creatures. Shouldn't that be 'all opponents'? The Myr's trigger can target players as well.
I prefer this deck since it's only a 3-card combo.

www.nogoblinsallowed.com

Flyheight, Myr Welder exiling a Heavy Arbalest doesn't become an equipment. It becomes a creature with the same activated ability text of Heavy Arbalest.


But isn't that still a bombo?

The Arbalest says "Equipped creature gets ...".
In other words, the only ability the Arbalest has is the equip ability.
Sure, the Welder can recombine one of the other 3 pieces of the combo, but not the Arbalest.

Also, in the first deck it's said how Perilous Myr, Glissa and Summoning kills all creatures. Shouldn't that be 'all opponents'? The Myr's trigger can target players as well.
I prefer this deck since it's only a 3-card combo.



I don't think he meant that the Welder imprints the Arbalest, but rather that it can imprint either a Galvanizer or a Palladium Myr.  Otherwise, I agree, I don't see how imprinting the Arbalest on the Welder will do anything.

In regards to the Perilous Myr, Glissa's ability only triggers when an opponent's creature dies, so it doesn't work if you target a player.
Ah right, that's what I was missing.
Thanks for clearing it up.

www.nogoblinsallowed.com

Why are you ignoring Myr Superion! What a great card for Heartless!




Why indeed!? I read the entire article waiting for him to start extolling the virtues of how great Myr Superion is in this deck.  ಠ_ಠ
according to deckbox.org:

Total deck value: $75.66


well if you really want more budget, take out the dark slicks - play with all basics then you save yourself 40 bucks and the total goes under 50, pretty obvious, its not like hes making a deck with 4 lilianas, 4 snapcasters and 8 swords, - chill lol.

I'm not going to say that the deck isn't budget without the duals. I'm only going to say that the argument "Well, he's not running the four most expensive cards around as four-ofs means he's building on a budget" is pretty flawed. So a budget deck is anything that costs less than the single most expensive possible combination of cards?



well yea, ofc not- i was exaggerating a bit there. I just assumed that stating the price of the deck (without  examining anyway to make it more budget) was implying that they felt it was over budget.  The ways to make the deck cheaper here are pretty obvious though, so there shouldn't be any attempt to try and call this a non-budget deck. I'm fine with JVL posting the most ideal cards for a deck sometimes, in the case someone has them or is wanting to go beyond and make the deck even better, and its a lot more understandable if these more expensive cards thrown in are not absolutley needed to make the deck work, but would help it run more optimally. i.e something like Darkslick Shores.
Bloodgift Demon over Rune-Scarred Demon for the first deck?
I thought the whole "destroy all ur opponents creatures with perilous myr" myr was an awesome idea. You could have 4 copies of heartless summoning and four copies of glissa and 4 copies of perilous myr plus some black/green control like despise and sever the bloodline and naturalize. This is something that I am very interested in looking into. I want to see some matches to see how it works.

Also, love the inclusion of Glissa the Traitor. She is insane, and I don't understand why she hasn't seen more standard play (you get a 3/3 with first strike deathtouch for 3? and with that ability? it's insane!!!)

Another insane card with heartless summoning is Myr Superion
Any artifact with toughness more than 1 for two is insane in this deck.
i would love to see a Modern take to heartless summoning...
standard is not exciting enough and not really possible when you got a top tier anti-artifact card

i hav been thinking about the interaction between enduring renewal, heartless summoning, and perilous myr
...
using cards like these to find the combo pieces :  
idyllic tutor               finds 2
beseech the queen finds 2 or 3
shred memory         finds 2
spoils of the vault   finds 3
....
need ways to protect it though...enchantment destruction is not super common so turn4 kills should be fine

so we could have thoughtseize like effects to drop their disruption
and ways to retrieve a piece from the grave like auramancer
and protect it on battlefield greater auramancy or spellskite...
spellskite is especially awesome when you can drop it at no cost after dropping heartless summoning!!



Ashnod's Altar does the same thing. It also allows you to get Renewal out faster. The only difference is that you will need to pay for the Myr upfront, but a scenario can go:

Turn 1: Plains, Sol Ring
Turn 2: Plains, Altar, Myr
Turn 3: Enduring Renewal, go to town.

Mox Diamonds and Opals can also speed the combo to turn 2 (or perhaps 1).
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
I thought the whole "destroy all ur opponents creatures with perilous myr" myr was an awesome idea. You could have 4 copies of heartless summoning and four copies of glissa and 4 copies of perilous myr plus some black/green control like despise and sever the bloodline and naturalize. This is something that I am very interested in looking into. I want to see some matches to see how it works.

Also, love the inclusion of Glissa the Traitor. She is insane, and I don't understand why she hasn't seen more standard play (you get a 3/3 with first strike deathtouch for 3? and with that ability? it's insane!!!)

Another insane card with heartless summoning is Myr Superion
Any artifact with toughness more than 1 for two is insane in this deck.

I've been working on a more red-centric Heartless Summoning deck that turns Priest of Urabrask into a Dark Ritual.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

I think that, combined with Urabrask for T3 hasted everything, makes it the best bet.
Also, love the inclusion of Glissa the Traitor. She is insane, and I don't understand why she hasn't seen more standard play (you get a 3/3 with first strike deathtouch for 3? and with that ability? it's insane!!!)



Her mana cost is quite specific and includes enemy colors.  So not a color combo played often, outside of pod, especially when there were no enemy color duals.  Now with Innistrad in the mix, we might see a bit more B/G and she might see some play.

Another insane card with heartless summoning is Myr Superion
Any artifact with toughness more than 1 for two is insane in this deck.



Only if the card is also worth playing without the Heartless Summoning.  The biggest problem with the card, really.  The lower cost and -1/-1 sort of wants you to run bigger stuff or some sort of combo, but unless you've got another card that sort of fills a duplicate function (like Birthing Pod in a Heartless Pod deck), well, you need stuff that is playable without HS, in case you don't draw it or it doesn't stay on the battlefield for some reason. 

Myr Superion typically isn't worth playing without HS.  The need to run enough creature based mana to play it if you don't have HS, combined with most mana dorks dying if you do have HS, just so you get a vanilla creature that can be chumped easily?
Only if the card is also worth playing without the Heartless Summoning.  The biggest problem with the card, really.  The lower cost and -1/-1 sort of wants you to run bigger stuff or some sort of combo, but unless you've got another card that sort of fills a duplicate function (like Birthing Pod in a Heartless Pod deck), well, you need stuff that is playable without HS, in case you don't draw it or it doesn't stay on the battlefield for some reason. 

Myr Superion typically isn't worth playing without HS.  The need to run enough creature based mana to play it if you don't have HS, combined with most mana dorks dying if you do have HS, just so you get a vanilla creature that can be chumped easily?


Sure, but he's also running Palladium Myr! That can single-handedly cast Myr Superion even without Heartless Summoning around. That sounds like the Superion should be, if not an auto-include, definitely a strong contender for the deck.

Anyway, it was a fun article. Even if it was very amusing to see that Ancient Grudge is still undeniably tangible and existent: last week featured the silly assertion that "Ancient Grudge is a very real card", and this week brought us the exact same word-for-word affirmation of nonimaginariness!
I myself have been brewing a JUND build of Heartless Summoning focused around land destruction. Between Beast Within, Acidic Slime and Invader Parasite that's 12 ways to attack the land at the price of Stone Rain.

Other good heartless combos:

G Viridian Emissary
R Priest of Umbrask
B Phyrexian Rager
1BB Blood Gift Demon
2RR Inferno Titan
BB Skin Render
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1G Tree of Redemtion
1(B) Phyrexian Metamorph
1BBB Massacre Wurn
BB Entomber Exarch
Why no nevermore in the second deck? Seems like a quick solution to Ancient Grudge etc.
recently, building on a budget deck lists are not budget anymore. =(