Max-effects

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I've been wanting to do this for a loooong time: compile a list of common and/or notable effects and the cards that do them best. Sort of like a staples list.

I think the best way to get started would be to decide what those effects should be. They should be broad and fairly universal in that most decks will have access to them.

So far my thoughts are on tutors, sweepers, counters, mana ramp, card draw, recursion.

What other categories should there be? Or suggestions on sub-categories?

3DH4LIF3

removal by permanent type?

I dont know if this can actually work without lots of overlap or getting convoluted. 
Targeted removal/GY removal?
Spot Removal (Path to Exile, Pongify, etc...)
Land Destruction (Strip Mine, Tectonic Edge, etc..)
Copy Effects (Rite of Replication, Phyrexian Metamorph, etc..)
Card Draw (Mind's Eye, Rhystic Study, etc..)
Tuck Effects (Hallowed Burial, Chaos Warp, etc..)
Sac Effects (Barter in Blood, Syphon Flesh, etc..)
Recursion Effects (Animate Dead, Genesis, etc..)
Finishers (Insurrection, Exsanguinate, etc..)

Creature removal
Non-creature removal (because dividing this one up further would create duplicity)
Library manipulation
  - Draw effects
  - Non-draw effects
Creature buffs
Non-creature buffs
Sacrifice (buff)
Sacrifice (removal)
Tutors (Lands, etc.)
Tax effects (stax, thorn of amethyst etc)

@metalevolence- I think I would do removal by creature/non-creature. And I suspect a lot of overlap in just those kinds of areas. Not so much in others.

3DH4LIF3

-More-

Mana Generation
 - Manafacts
 - Spells
 - Enchantments

Denial
 - Spell
 - Casting prohibition

Graveyard
 - recursion
 - denial

Combat
 Attack
 - Buff
 - Penalty
 - Denial

Combat
 Defense
 - Buff
 - Penalty
 - Denial

Other permanent effects
 - Targeted
 - Untargeted and mass effect
Since you want to identify the best forms of the type, I'd think it would be fine to keep removal general since good removal is defined by flexibility.  If you did want to create some sort of demarcations within the group, maybe group by instant speed/sorcery speed since different decks have different requirements for the speed at which spells occur?

Maybe add Blink as a type? 
I'm not sure if all of these have been said, but just in case.

Token Generation
- Creature
- Non-Creature

Spot Removal
- Creature
- Non-Creature
- Universal (Alternatively Creature and Non-Creature)

Mass Removal
- Creature
- Non-Creature
- Universal

Other Removal Effects (Covers spells that are not quite spot removal, but not quite mass removal, such as sacrifice effects, bounce effects, etc.)

Counterspells

Mana-Ramp
- Green
- Artifact
- Other

Card Draw
- Creature 
- Artifact
- Enchantment
- Instant/Sorcery

Tutors
- Black
- Non-Black (separated since Black is significantly better at this than all other colours)

Finishers
- White
- Blue
- Black
- Red
- Green
- Colourless
- 2 Colour
- 3 Colour
- 5 Colour

Copy Effects

Graveyard Effects
- Positive Interactions (Reamination + Recursion among others, such as Sutured Ghoul, Tomb Stalker, flashback, threshold, etc.)
- Negative Interactions (Basically Graveyard hate)

Pump Effects
- Universal (ie, Glorious Anthem/Eldrazi Monument)
- Targeted
- Auras
- Equipment
- Instant/Sorcery

Common Enabling Effects
- Tokens (Doubling Season)
- Tribal
- "Voltron" aka Commander Kill
 - Other

Deterents
- Permanent
- Artifacts (Norn's Annex)
- Enchantments (ie, Propaganda, Dissipation Field
- Creature
- Other
- Non-Permanent

Lands
- Colour Fixing (If in a cycle, give an example card from each cycle)
- Man-lands (Treetop Village, Celestial Collonade)
- Spell Lands (Kessig Wolf-Run, Gavony Township)
- Effect Lands (Relinquary Tower)
- Other


I hope that this helps 



 
Just do:
Targeted romoval: Pillage, Wrecking Ball, Decimate, Swords to Plowshares, etc.
Mass removal: Armageddon, Earthquake, Wash Out

If we make the categories broad enough, we shouldn't have to worry about the overlap.
Just do:
Targeted romoval: Pillage, Wrecking Ball, Decimate, Swords to Plowshares, etc.
Mass removal: Armageddon, Earthquake, Wash Out

If we make the categories broad enough, we shouldn't have to worry about the overlap.


Disagree.  if the categories are too broad, it's not much different from other "good cards" lists.  It should be no problem to just repeat a card if it fits in several categories

I think it's important, for example, to split removal by type of target - someone using this list to make a deck should be able to deal with most any type of permanent, which is easier to do if you use a card from each removal category than just scanning the whole list of removal to make sure you have everything

something like:
Targeted Removal Effects
Show

Artifact
Show

acidic slime - very versatile removal on a 2/2 body, useful in any green deck
krosan grip - blah blah
return to dust
crush


Enchantment


Land


etc.



...possibly split up further by color and instant/sorcery speed.  People looking at this list are most likely wanting a specific solution, like "I need a way to deal with enchantments in U/B/R"
Draw - Phyrexian Arena, Jace Beleren
Targeted Removal - Return to Dust, Woodfall Primus, Qasali Pridemage
Recursion - Eternal Witness, Regrowth
Mass Removal - Rout, Final Judgment, Austere Command
Tutors - Eladamri's Call, Demonic Tutor 
Miscellaneous Utility - Cultivate/Kodama's Reach, Knight of the Reliquary

Something like this. More canvas gets painted with broad brushstrokes, after all. 
Good stuff so far. It appears that removal is going to be the hardest section. The rest are a question of relevance to the format.

3DH4LIF3

Broad brushstrokes? Why not go even broader and have just one category? Wait, that's what the staples list is...

The whole point of categorizing was to make it easy to find good cards for certain tasks. EG: "My uril deck just lost to moat, and I want more answers. What options do I have?"

A general 'removal' category doesn't really help there. The player still has to sift through a long list of cards, most of which aren't what they're looking for. The staples and 'good cards' list already offers that. I think it's best to be specific, and limit the number of categories by only featuring functions that (nearly) every deck is likely to want.

I'd suggest:
Mana acceleration
Card draw/filtering
Tutors
Removal/answers (with a subcategory for each permanent type, and one for counterspells, possibly one for commanders)
Late-game bombs

I don't even think you need to separate mass removal from spot removal. Its purpose is still to answer problematic permanents. And while you'd use mass removal differently than spot removal, and it would shine in different board states, the same is true of say, duplicant vs condemn.

If you want to make categories for very deck specific functions (like, cards that re-trigger creatures enters-play effects, or cards that generate/synergize with tokens, or creature reanimation, etc), I'd create a second section for that. Maybe reserve the first reply to the post for it.
Broad brushstrokes? Why not go even broader and have just one category? Wait, that's what the staples list is... The whole point of categorizing was to make it easy to find good cards for certain tasks. EG: "My uril deck just lost to moat, and I want more answers. What options do I have?" A general 'removal' category doesn't really help there. The player still has to sift through a long list of cards, most of which aren't what they're looking for. The staples and 'good cards' list already offers that. I think it's best to be specific, and limit the number of categories by only featuring functions that (nearly) every deck is likely to want. I'd suggest: Mana acceleration Card draw/filtering Tutors Removal/answers (with a subcategory for each permanent type, and one for counterspells, possibly one for commanders) Late-game bombs I don't even think you need to separate mass removal from spot removal. Its purpose is still to answer problematic permanents. And while you'd use mass removal differently than spot removal, and it would shine in different board states, the same is true of say, duplicant vs condemn. If you want to make categories for very deck specific functions (like, cards that re-trigger creatures enters-play effects, or cards that generate/synergize with tokens, or creature reanimation, etc), I'd create a second section for that. Maybe reserve the first reply to the post for it.



Do not presume you can talk down to me. Not long ago, there were arbitrary percentages attached to each entry in your "staples list." The point of these percentages was to reflect that only certain decks would run certain cards. The staples list was flawed in this, in that it was unabashedly not universal. Ergo, an effort to seperate cards based on effect would better illustrate to new players what cards to run in what kind of deck. Call it an indexed "staples list," if you must.
Tremor != Onlainari

I have a strange suggestion.

What about making categories, then separating it into (placeholder names) cheap, advantage and bombs. Essentially, cards you just use for the effect, utility cards that can deal with it but more card advantage oriented, and then bombs that do the same. For instance:
Disenchant effects: Deglamer, Acidic Slime, Woodfall Primus.

Essentially:
Deglamer is played because you need an efficient answer to artifacts.
Acidic Slime is more played due to card advantage, but is an efficient option against artifacts.
Woodfall Primus is played because he is big, hard to deal with and gives a lot of card advantage, but he's not really played to answer artifacts.

Or is that just too weird? Not sure, just throwing it out.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

what function will this serve that Gatherer doesn't?
Higher chance of knowing what the quality edh cards are instead of reading gatherer comments.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Gongshowninja, I wasn't talking down to you, I disagreed with you, and explained why.

And as mown said, the staples thread is onlainari's project, not mine.
Gongshowninja, I wasn't talking down to you, I disagreed with you, and explained why. And as mown said, the staples thread is onlainari's project, not mine.



Again with the condescension, as though I can't read. It's a framework you seem to be clinging to, is it not? It's yours as it was your suggestion to hold to the staples list.

On topic, Mown's suggestions seem valid. 
Uh, I dunno about "can't read", but "didn't read" is starting to look like it suits you. I didn't suggest we stick to the staples thread, in fact I made a suggesting for organizing this function-sorted list.

And the condescension is imagined, not real. I merely disagreed with something you said, it wasn't meant to be personal.
Broad brushstrokes? Why not go even broader and have just one category? Wait, that's what the staples list is...



>.> 


I'll take your last post as an apology and move on. 

So far I like that Tremor88 != onlainari as best comment in the thread.

Now, I think there are some questions regarding the validity of a project like this.

Why not just use gatherer?
-gatherer doesn't sort out the edh quality cards from the chaff. Gatherer doesn't provide commentary on the cards.

Why not use the staples list (or other stickied resources)?
-the staples list isn't going to include cards like deglamer or makeshift mannequin and tell why/how they shoul be played. Current other resources don't necessarily guarantee that the "best" cards are being used.

3DH4LIF3

Though a resource such as this isn't a bad idea, you do run the risk of everone having cookie-cutter decks, support-wise.  I am all for making it easier for people to join the format, but there needs to be some discovery on their part - it truly helps them learn to build better decks in the long run.
A point from personal experience:  I was going through and sorting my cards, when I came across Aftershock and Fissure.  They had been buried in my collection for years, and I realized that, hey, they'd actually be useful in EDH.  I added them to my deck, and when I played them for the first time, people in my playgroup were, for lack of a better word, amazed - There was a lot of "Hey! I remember that card", and "Wow - this card isn't half bad". 
If a person is just told to use card A over card B, but neither are strictly better than card C, you lose that sense of discovery.  Aftershock isn't a great card, but it is versatile.  By finding it myself, I was able to put it in my deck, have a period of "hey, look what I found", and then truly decide, after playtesting, if it was the best use of a card slot.  As it turns out, after a few more sets came out, it wasn't, but from now on, whenever a build a new deck with red, Aftershock is on the shortlist.  I now have a bond with that card which I never would have had otherwise, and though some of you are probably laughing, others know what I'm talking about - you have "pet cards", and this makes the game more enjoyable for you.  You wouldn't have these "pet cards" if somebody pointed out "hey, use this".
Further, everybody's Meta is different.  Some of you will be surprised that I hadn't seen Aftershock in my meta, some of you are probably thinking, "hey, that's a good idea", some of you are thinking "what a terrible card", and some of you are thinking "where am I and why am I sticky?".  I think that perhaps a better sorted staples-page is probably all that is needed to give a newcomer a starting point, but then, we should just let their meta's evolve on their own.
I don't think a list of any kind is going to create cookie-cutter decks for anyone who wasn't already looking to do build such a deck.

I would also contend that such a list can aid discovery by bringing older and perhaps lesser known cards to the attention of new players.

3DH4LIF3