U/R Vengeance

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Burning Vengeance

4     Sulfur Falls
4     Hinterland Harbor
8     Island
8     Mountain

4     Snapcaster Mage
  
1     Devil's Play
3     Geistflame
3     Galvanic Blast
2     Arc Trail 
4     Mana Leak
3     Dissipate
4     Think Twice
4     Burning Vengeance                                            
3     Desperate Ravings
3     Forbidden Alchemy
2     Past in Flames
   
3    
3     Slagstorm
3     Dismember
3     Flashfreeze
2     Nihil Spellbomb
1     Dissipate
This looks like a VERY solid list, and everything sychs together very well.  I won't even sudgest Past in Flames, as it may ruin your deck.  Thumbs Up!  ^_^
I had a thread somewhere for decks of this type.

You have more mountains than you need; typically the deck gets by on only one red source, in the maindeck.

I think Gut Shot needs to be in there somewhere (over Combust, probably), and I'd go -1 Flashfreeze/Combust, +1 Slagstorm.
give me link
I had a thread somewhere for decks of this type.

You have more mountains than you need; typically the deck gets by on only one red source, in the maindeck.

I think Gut Shot needs to be in there somewhere (over Combust, probably), and I'd go -1 Flashfreeze/Combust, +1 Slagstorm.



Yes, but it got derailed and wasn't really titled what the deck actually is now.  This is basically your list.  I have since removed the Lavamancers and Probes and added Silent Departures to recall the Snapcaster to your hand for multiple graveyard joy.  TY for the advice on the SB, I like it.
The unsummons make this deck ready.  Huge difference.

 @tonykart34--  unsure if you got my message but here are some thoughts on the list you posted.


    i still dont think black has a place here. imo anything you want to dismember is either a: too big for it to kill it, or b: would die to cheaper burn spells w/out the life loss. and really if your running black you might as well use goft, or doom blade. it just seems more reliable to run it in 2 colors rather than 3.


 i do agree with above i dont think past in flames would help your deck at all, it's much more suited to the list i sent you.


 @mrindigo--  i'm still fighting with wether or not to run gut shot, currently my list runs 3 galvanics, and 3 geistflames. i run the geist's because they flash without help, and the galv's cause it's one more damage than gut for 1 mana(which has mattered). i understand the "free" flashback effect but i feel that in the burn aspect it's just more effective to pay 1 red for the extra damage, since most of the time you have plenty of mana untapped.

Didn't get ur message, sorry.  Thank you for the advice.  Well, I have been considering running Doomblade or GofT but they each have an achilles heal.  Surely, Doom Blade is better than GoFT, but dismember can be used against anything.  I see your point though.  I can't kill titans, Trees, anything above a 5 toughness.  Ima give Doomblade a shot.  The problem with just running blue and red is that there is no Lightning Bolt.  I have no good burn spells that can tough the power of a Doom Blade or Oblivion Ring.  Red just doesn't have the burn it used to.  RDW decks are just about creatures because the spells suck.  Gut Shot doesn't really help my problem nearly as much as Day of Judgement or Doom Blade would.

From PandemicSway to Tonykart

since i dont think it's appropriate to post decklists in that forum; i'm just sending you the list i ran over the past 2 fnm's. took 1st in both, most games went 2-0 in my favor.


i understand your reservations about desperate ravings however i usually dont mind discarding anything besides the snapcasters (and i usually try not to ravings if i have one in hand.)


Land:


4 sulfer falls
3 hinterland harbor (for the grudge fb, and naturalize out of sb: there's a few ts decks so it's a meta choice)
9 mountain
8 island


instant/sorc:


4 desperate ravings       4 think twice
4 mana leak                   3 dissipate
3 geistflame                   3 galvanic blast
2 forbidden alchemy       2 arc trail
2 past in flames             1 devils play


creatures/other:


4 snapcaster mage        4 burning vengeance


sideboard:


3 ancient grudge           3 slagstorm
3 naturalize                  3 flashfreeze
2 dismember                1 inferno titan



the sideboard is pretty iffy imo and largly subjective. the ancient grudge comes in vs tempered along with 1 or 2 slagstorms.


2 grudge also go in vs pod along with 2 dismembers


the flashfreeze's and 2slags come in vs rdw


the inferno and naturalizes come in vs white control or weenie(if they run 0-ring), weenie the slags also come in, control just the nat's and inferno (this is for o-ring/nevermore/etc.)


i still havent found a good way to sideboard as the mainboard is hugely synergistic. i usually take things out in 1's or 2's arc trail comes out vs control, i usually take 1 ravings a nama leak or 2 out for the aggro/rdw. (i keep dissipate in against rdw for the pheonix's)


this deck has zero problems with aggro as u just burn their dudes at eot, or arc them. let the small stuff hit and burn it, counter the big stuff i usually dont try to stick a vengeance till turn 5.


the counter burn route imo is the best way to make the deck work since the burn handles the aggro matches with ease and the counter suite competes with the control decks.  also i've had vengeance extracted on me in a few games and have still been able to win with counters and burn.  past in flames is huge when u land it. i am trying to find a place for a consecrated in the mainboard but i dont have any atm.

the decklist you see there is why ravings is a good choice everything in the deck either flashes, can be snapcastered or past in flames back out.   i think most people are trying to run vengeance in a pure control shell which imo isn't synergistic with the way that card wants to be played. i also see alot of people running incinerate which i'm still debating as an option. i prefer the 1 mana burn besides arc trail as it generally lets me burn and draw during the early turns. plus it lets you "effectivly" do more damage from a past in flames with raw burn not counting the enchantment.

First Impressions...
I am going to be testing your decklist out tomorrow at my local shop with some buds.  We are all getting ready for States and I am going to run some form of the Vengeance deck.

My first impression with your deck is... with all the small damage spells, how do you handle a big decks like Solar Flare, Wolf Run Green, or Pod Decks?  I can see this deck owning weenie and Mono-Red, but decks with more powerful stuff just seems... too powerful.  Can you explain how this deck reacts in these matchups?


Also, the main issue I have with this vengeance deck as a whole is not getting the Enchantment out early enough.  Without at least 12 dig spells, what happens if you don't find this card?  Even with dig spells I can't find it sometimes and its a guaranteed loss.  This deck NEEDS vengeance to win.  With only 2 Forbidden Alchemy (which seems like the best of them all), Desperate Ravings (which I cannot run based on my horrible luck) and Think Twice (which isn't THAT great at 1 card draw for 2 mana), how hard is it to find BV?


Arc Trail is a tremendous spell in my MonoRed deck, but it is a sorcery, so I cannot play this card on an opponents turn, even when Snapcasted or Past in Flames'd... right?  Galvanic Blast or Shock I can understand, but why not run Gut Shot or Incinerate over Geistflame?  Do you ever really use the expensive flashback on Geist?


I looooove burn.  Last year was such a fun time to be a red deck man.  Lightning Bolt, Searing Blaze, Forked Bolt, Pyromancer's Ascension... amazing.  I would love to go more of a burn route for this deck, but I just can't seem to pull BV fast enough in that setup and once BV is out, the burn isn't necessary.  I can just counter ppl and deal damage or kill ppl with a freaking ponder and unsummon!


I am going to try this deck out tomorrow around 4pm EST so I can better understand your concept, but I am curious to hear a bit more from you on how this deck worked in your tourneys.  Like I mentioned, I LOVE burn, and I want this to work, I just need to hear a bit more of the "how it works" if you don't mind.

 well it looks like i have to try to remember what i wrote since copy/paste failed.


 


     vs. solar:  i haven't had the chance to play against this yet it get's dominated in the early rounds by aggro in my area.  my thoughts on the match though i would probably think of putting a few extractions into the sb for this match. from what i've seen flare decks have been running light on counters and playing a tapoutgame. since we mb 7 or 8 plus 4 snaps i'd just play the permission game with them throwing all my burn into the gy when i have a choice.  against a resolved threat though i am not sure, i do like your idea of bouncing the creature as it serves double/triple duty for the deck i'm just not sure how i would fit it in.


 pod decks i am not too worried about the early burn and ancient grudges are usually enough to stall them out.


 wolf run green is the only match i have absolutly no idea on.. i'll attempt to think of some stuff but that is looking like our worst matchup.


 i have never not had a vengeance either on board or in hand by turn 5. the draw in the deck above works just fine for me. you may be stalling on them waiting for a vengeance to be in play instead of just flashing them to dig. i will use the flashback without a vengeance if that is my only draw option. i also think that ravings deserves the slots i have never regtretted casting it, even when it nabs a snapcaster the draw it provides is great.


 arc trail was a nod to the heavy aggro in my meta, and granted its sorc speed it's still a 2 for 1 in most cases. i have used the 4cost fb on geistflame once or twice i may end up dropping them for gutshot however. the low damage burn i made the decision based on relative toughnesses currently seeing play. most are 1-2 not many are 3-5. i thought about it and i dont think incinerate is right for the deck when you are trying to maximize spells from the gy. when i cast past in flames looking for the win(which is about 30% of the time) i'm looking to maximize spells out of the gy, so say i have 2 vengeances out 3 islands and 4 mountains. i can either past into 3 spells with a minimum of 15damage, or 2 spells with a minimum of 12.


 further thought i think gut shot might indeed replace geistflame. i see that you can just "burn" with ponders etc, but like i said i'm in a very aggro heavy meta so the early burn was my best option for making the deck work. plus i'd rather do 4damage with a galvanic fb than 2 with a ponder. this can also make the difference when trying to nuke out a "big" creature, as a galvanic can effectivly be a deal 6 damage to target creature spell. "if" you have vengeance's.


 most games i do have 2 vengeances out fairly quickly. might be just good/bad luck? i havent had a problem with drawing them yet.


 once game i did get extracted and they took the vengeance, i was able to play the permission game and nail them for over 15 with a devils play over 2 turns though.

My luck is desperately awful.  This is the main reason I hate desperate ravings so much.  I will have Vengeances buried at the bottom of the deck and just keep drawing.  I must admit that my luck has drastically improved with the introduction of Ponder to my deck.  For 1 mana, I dig 3 cards deep and if they are lands I don't have to stuff them in my hand, throw them in the yard or bury them in the bottom of the pile.  I get to reshuffle my deck and improve my card quality.  Also, it is an easy 1 mana cast for damage later in the game when you want to draw a card and keep your hand full.  I prefer it over Ravings just for luck and these reasons.  I realize the synergy isn't right on point.

This is why I use the unsummons though.  It is just, plain nasty.  I can drop a snappy, use up all my mana but 2.  Unsummon a beefy opponents creature, then unsommon snappy.  My turn now, recast snappy, and start disecting my yard.  This card has made the single biggest improvement to my deck of all of them.


I am very seriously considering replacing dissipates with Gut Shots for aggro decks.  Just seems to make too much sense to have cheaper spells in the yard.  Lets face it, im not going to snapcast a slagstorm and kill my mage, so I need to be able to ping enemies for more.  I like that inclusion.


Arc Trail, as a Mono Red guy, has a special place in my heart, but I know more than anyone that it is very matchup relative.  This card makes weenie aggro cry hard, but once again, has little use in bigger matchups.  I can see this card fighting for functional space in this deck with GutShot.


As for a solution to Wolf Run Green.  I am going to be running 3-4 Ghost Quarters as a start.  I was also thinking about bringing back Act of Aggression to take over the boosted creature and smash their face right back.  Imagine snapcasting that kind of damage on the next turn.  Ghey indeed.


But in order for surgical extraction to work you have to have killed one of them correct?  This is where carrying white would be key for Day of Judgement.  Damn.  Slagstorm can't do the job unless you snap it in teh same turn and that is costly.


I like Past in Flames a lot, but with unsummons, you dont need it.  Snappy gets so over used it is gross and much cheaper than PiF.


I actually think this deck matches up well against Solar Flare.  It is a borderline mirror matchup but instead of running creatures we do damage for casting spells from the yard.  I think we have the advantage in think because we get to carry more ammunition.  however, timely reiforcements, day of judgement, doom blade, mana leak, snapcaster are all some of the most powerful cards in the game.  I think i'll run extra counters for those bastards.

I definitely see the value of the 2 dmg 1 mana spell over a ponder, but ponder to me is my replacement for Ravigns since I have such awful luck.  I am definitely going to add in some gut shots or galvanic blasts.  Wondering if Gut Shot may be better.

    on the extraction-- you dont have to have killed one, flare activly dumps stuff into the gy, and u can also extract stuff you have countered.


    against rdw- i'd rather remove mana leak over dissipate.  since dissipate removes the pheonix. and yes arc trail can move to a sb slot but it's a meta choice for me.


    just to clarify which "unsummon" are you running? many people refer to any bounce creature as unsummon so i'd like the exact. otherwise the only problem i see with unsummon is that it's a dead card if you dont have snappy/or an opponent has resolved a creature. i play a more permission oriented style i guess, i usually use snap's as blockers/burn in aggro matches and hold them in hand as counterspells in control matches.


    i'm not sure i'm sold on ponder i can see why you include it but i think it's just preference between that and ravings, since your deck is built more towards abusing snaps than mine is. i think my list leans more towards spells that flash on their own. as i can get double duty from ravings without wasting my snapcaster on it. whereas you can do the ponder thing since you have unsummons. i may have to throw it together and test it out but looking at the list it seems alot more dependant on the mage than i would like it to be.


   wolf run... i like the ghost quarter, i'm not sure anything we have will hold much of the rest of their deck though... aren't many people planning on running "uncounterable" (thrun) and hexproof green for that deck?  which would make act of agression fairly useless?


on the extraction-- you dont have to have killed one, flare activly dumps stuff into the gy, and u can also extract stuff you have countered.


I see this now.  I really like this card against graveyard decks (solar flare).  This card is getting serious SB consideration.

against rdw- i'd rather remove mana leak over dissipate.  since dissipate removes the pheonix. and yes arc trail can move to a sb slot but it's a meta choice for me.


I hvae done a majority of my testing against Mono Red decks and I feel like Dissipate is only good against 1 red card that is usually a 2 or 3 of in most (intelligently structured) Red Decks.   By the time they can utilize the regenerate ability of Chandra's, I feel that I can mana leak all their burn before it resolves.  If this was last years setup I would be more worried cuz Red had some nasty burn and a lot of it, but most Red pilots are running 3 incinerate, 3 Arc Trails and 4 Volleys.  That is only 11 cards and 3 of them are more for board clearance and may be SB out after they see my creatureless setup. 

just to clarify which "unsummon" are you running? many people refer to any bounce creature as unsummon so i'd like the exact. otherwise the only problem i see with unsummon is that it's a dead card if you dont have snappy/or an opponent has resolved a creature. i play a more permission oriented style i guess, i usually use snap's as blockers/burn in aggro matches and hold them in hand as counterspells in control matches.


  I run "Unsummon".  Vapor Snag would do too much damage to me and Silent Departure is a sorcery which sucks.  What do you mean it is a dead card if an opponent has a resolved creature?  Do you mean if he doesn't have a creature on the board?  I think this format is very creature heavy.  For some reason Wizards hates spells and thinks it is fun for people to turn their cards sideways and play a game of war.  I am not really worried about not having something to unsummon, especially a bloodthirsty Berserker, a growing noble, or a freshly birthed greenie.

i'm not sure i'm sold on ponder i can see why you include it but i think it's just preference between that and ravings, since your deck is built more towards abusing snaps than mine is. i think my list leans more towards spells that flash on their own. as i can get double duty from ravings without wasting my snapcaster on it. whereas you can do the ponder thing since you have unsummons. i may have to throw it together and test it out but looking at the list it seems alot more dependant on the mage than i would like it to be.


Definitely the case on all points here.  Ponder is definitely not as synergistic as your deck is by utilizing Desperate Ravings, but I am very unlucky and hate to have to eat a fat spoonful of it.  With geistflames and desperate ravings your deck is less dependant on combinations which reduces the luck factor and unbalances my philosophy of my version being less luck based.  However, this deck is very dependant on 1 card and Ponder does dig 1 card deeper.  I am definitely going to test your setup out today and see how, without such a dependance on Snappy, Ravings can hurt me less.  However, I still do have my concerns on mid-late game creature build-up.

wolf run... i like the ghost quarter, i'm not sure anything we have will hold much of the rest of their deck though... aren't many people planning on running "uncounterable" (thrun) and hexproof green for that deck?  which would make act of agression fairly useless?


Absolutely awful card that never should have been printed.  When only 1 card (Day of Judgement) can kill it, and it is in one of the most popular colors of the current standard format, it makes this just a huge joke.  Act of Aggression would be totally useless against it, but I think all cards are except 1.  I really think that when that card is out there, the best thing we can do is hope they are tapped out (which they won't be with Green) when it attacks and we can double snap him to death.  Doubt it, but there really is little we can do without Judgement (which is one of the main reasons I wanted to add white instead of black).

Since standard is all about jumping on to the latest fad, I predict this saturday's States tournament to be loaded with Solar Flare and Wolf Run Green decks galore.  There will always be MonoRed and Tempered Steel, but those matchups aren't nearly as powerful as the others.  I don't think Pod presents too much of an issue, especially with your style of Vengeance.
I run "Unsummon".  Vapor Snag would do too much damage to me and Silent Departure is a sorcery which sucks.  What do you mean it is a dead card if an opponent has a resolved creature?  Do you mean if he doesn't have a creature on the board?  I think this format is very creature heavy.  For some reason Wizards hates spells and thinks it is fun for people to turn their cards sideways and play a game of war.  I am not really worried about not having something to unsummon, especially a bloodthirsty Berserker, a growing noble, or a freshly birthed greenie

 yeah i meant it was dead if they do not have anything out. which happens alot in my version of the deck. i usually burn all the weenies before they get fat, or i dont let them hit the table in the first place. 


 against wolf run i think our best bet would be nuking their mana dorks asap and ghost quarter. also thinking about including 1 or 2 either consecrated sphinx or wurmcoil engine(to mitigate the trample over by gaining life) or possibly frost for the tapdown on the land? of the 3 of those i may be partial to frosty since he'll at least buy you that 1 turn no matter if he gets removed or not.



on the ponder vs desperate ravings.  i think the overall cost of the 2 does play an issue here as well along with the fact that you will be using mana on your own turn for it.


   1st ravings 2 cards 2 mana, 2nd 2 cards 3 mana so 4 cards 5 mana at instant speed.


   1st ponder 1 mana, 2nd ponder 3 mana, so 2card draw, 6 card "dig" at sorc speed.  and i put dig in parentheses because it's likely that you will just be shuffling looking for vengeance and not caring about what you see on top. it's a subtle point as well that while you are trying to find it with ponder you have reduced your deck size by 2 and unless you see it with the ponder you really haven't accomplished much besides drawing a card and shuffling. with ravings you would have reduced it by 4.


 and take into account that i will only need 1 card to do this you will need 2, and 3 if you want to get more use out of snaps.


 i think this is probably my best argument against ponder.  there will undoubtedly be cases where having that extra 3 mana on their turn to engage in a counter war would be essential.


 in the case that you may be running black lands while i am running green ones since my meta is artifact heavy. you might be better doing 4x alchemy with the ponders since u can effectivly throw away the other cards on top; while i only do 2xalchemy since my only flash for those is with snap.

I love the Frost Titan idea.  I've have Sphinx in my deck for some time now and it is just not good enough.  I mean, it is ok, but it is too replaceable to be a 6 mana card.  Frost titan would be a much more powerful inclusion to the late stages of the game, especially vs. Wolf Run.  Even when he attacks he gets to tap again, so sending him on a suicide mission in the late stages might not be that bad of an idea. to buy yourself a couple turns.  Anything to stay alive.  Exarchs would do the same for half the price, but they only do half the job.


on the ponder vs desperate ravings.  i think the overall cost of the 2 does play an issue here as well along with the fact that you will be using mana on your own turn for it.


   1st ravings 2 cards 2 mana, 2nd 2 cards 3 mana so 4 cards 5 mana at instant speed.


   1st ponder 1 mana, 2nd ponder 3 mana, so 2card draw, 6 card "dig" at sorc speed.  and i put dig in parentheses because it's likely that you will just be shuffling looking for vengeance and not caring about what you see on top. it's a subtle point as well that while you are trying to find it with ponder you have reduced your deck size by 2 and unless you see it with the ponder you really haven't accomplished much besides drawing a card and shuffling. with ravings you would have reduced it by 4.


 and take into account that i will only need 1 card to do this you will need 2, and 3 if you want to get more use out of snaps.


 i think this is probably my best argument against ponder.  there will undoubtedly be cases where having that extra 3 mana on their turn to engage in a counter war would be essential.


 in the case that you may be running black lands while i am running green ones since my meta is artifact heavy. you might be better doing 4x alchemy with the ponders since u can effectivly throw away the other cards on top; while i only do 2xalchemy since my only flash for those is with snap.




I do run 4x Alchemy which is actually the best search spell in the deck.  4 is essential because I need to run at LEAST 2 per game.  It fill the yard up so quickly and lets me dig 4 cards deep.

I definitely see your point on Ravings, but I just don't feel comfortable enough discarding randomly.  Especially since I always have a snapcaster and unsummons in my hand.
 
What is your opinion on a Dream Twist/Memory's Journey combo?  Say 4x Twist, 2x Journey?
I've been thinking that Koth's Courier may be a more important card with this year's resurgence of green.  Having 2-3 in the SB might actually be perfect for deflecting some damage and dealing some of our own.  What do you think about this card?
I guess Thrun can also be killed by Phanstasmal Image and infect, but it seems like a lot of lost focus.

 actually phantasmal would probably be great. it solves thrun and geist 2 cards that give this trouble. and in effect gives you more snapcasters, or a big guy if you fail a counter.


 i wouldn't run the courier, it'll just end up trading with aggro decks and be a miniscule beater against green which is where you'd want it in the first place it also doesnt fit in with the draw-go style.


 not a fan of twist/journey they'll end up hurting you most likely and take alot of slots id rather use on better things. also i'd rather get a cast out of the things then mill them and flash flash.


 the only actual problem i have with alchemy in your deck is your still ditching 3 cards. and alot of your stuff doesnt flash on its own. theoretically you could get vengeance and a snapcaster easily in the 4 with alchemy and your basically forced to take the vengeance reducing your decks "efficiency" i think is the right word.


 i think we can go through this argument for 20 more pages and solve nothing though. i think it just comes down to preference. you try it my way i'll try it your way and see what i think.


 side note: it would be great to get some input from other people on this.


 actually phantasmal would probably be great. it solves thrun and geist 2 cards that give this trouble. and in effect gives you more snapcasters, or a big guy if you fail a counter.


 i wouldn't run the courier, it'll just end up trading with aggro decks and be a miniscule beater against green which is where you'd want it in the first place it also doesnt fit in with the draw-go style.


 not a fan of twist/journey they'll end up hurting you most likely and take alot of slots id rather use on better things. also i'd rather get a cast out of the things then mill them and flash flash.


 the only actual problem i have with alchemy in your deck is your still ditching 3 cards. and alot of your stuff doesnt flash on its own. theoretically you could get vengeance and a snapcaster easily in the 4 with alchemy and your basically forced to take the vengeance reducing your decks "efficiency" i think is the right word.


 i think we can go through this argument for 20 more pages and solve nothing though. i think it just comes down to preference. you try it my way i'll try it your way and see what i think.


 side note: it would be great to get some input from other people on this.




I will be heading to the shop in about 2 hours so I'll test our your style then for sure.  I will also replace ponders with ravings again in mine to see if it works better.

Phantasmal Image seems to be the solid card in this deck.  It gives an amazing amount of flexibility for minimal cost.  I think this may be the card this deck needs to put it over the edge. 

 on phantasmal image. i really like the card and i think it could make a good addition at the very least in sb for geist and thrun.


    the only thing i'm hesitant about is it will be sorcery speed. so it will be tying up 2 mana and then most likely 2 more mana on your turn.  while late game this shouldn't be an issue during turns 4-6 it might since that's when most decks try to do their big play.

as long as you have 4 mana, a phantasmal image (killing a Traft) followed by a  leak/incinerate, seems great. On turn 3, slagstorm seems way more ideal but I could see doing it and not losing because of it. Like, didmember is still viable in really tough situations (or unsummon if you're into that).

 Clarification:  on a thrun/geist definatly worth it.   i would be hesitant to main deck it because when not playing against those you are either copying your own snapcaster on your own turn, or copying a threat that somehow got through the permission.


 also please see previous pages about our incinerate/dismember discussion


 like we said above slots in this deck are extremly tight, so running something mainboard really needs to completly deserve that slot.


 i can see the phantasmal working alot better in the control vengeance shell than the burn vengeance shell.


also tony: we should probably put the absoluty "necessary" spells in  a "core" list and then filter by what type. what i see as the necessary core and we can debate these inclusions. since some things fit my list and not yours but many are in both.


 i.e.     necessary:    4 vengeance   4 snapcaster   4 think twice  4 mana leak  3-4 dissipate  2-4 alchemy

Hey all been following this thread and the other u/r/w Burning Vengeance thread since it's creation. I've also been trying to throw together a deck like this so it's been interesting to see what you all have been coming up with.

That being said would Reverberate have any place in a deck like this? I could see it being used to copy removal and negate counter spell etc. your opponent plays. You could also copy your own burn spells for multiple targeting or doubling up the damage.

I'm not sure how the copy effects work rule wise though. If you played a spell with flashback from your graveyard and copied it with reverberate, would that double trigger the Burning Vengeance? or no...



Hey all been following this thread and the other u/r/w Burning Vengeance thread since it's creation. I've also been trying to throw together a deck like this so it's been interesting to see what you all have been coming up with.

That being said would Reverberate have any place in a deck like this? I could see it being used to copy removal and negate counter spell etc. your opponent plays. You could also copy your own burn spells for multiple targeting or doubling up the damage.

I'm not sure how the copy effects work rule wise though. If you played a spell with flashback from your graveyard and copied it with reverberate, would that double trigger the Burning Vengeance? or no...







Reverberate is a non-bo. Copying something on the stack is different to casting it. Furthermore, even if it was the copy is not cast from the graveyard, so either way it doesn't work with Burning Vengeance.


Reverberate is a non-bo. Copying something on the stack is different to casting it. Furthermore, even if it was the copy is not cast from the graveyard, so either way it doesn't work with Burning Vengeance.


 indeed.


 @falz : if you did not scroll back and read:   dismember doesnt really need a slot if your splashing black your better off with db or goft.


incinerate isn't really much better than any of the 1 cost burn spells in this deck either as most creatures commonly ran are below 3 toughness, or above 5. 



Ok, so I played some serious games up at the shop last night.  I played vs Wolf Run Green, Solar Flare and Black Pod.  Both of these decks had benefits the other did not.  Burn had more options from the yard, and control had more deception with the unsummons.  I came back home after and made some changes to my control version.
 
Same 23 Lands

4     Snapcaster Mage

3     Dream Twist
4     Think Twice
4     Forbidden Alchemy
2     Memory's Journey
 
4     Silent Departure
3     Mana Leak
4     Dissipate
2     Doom Blade
 
4     Burning Vengeance
2     Past in Flames
1     Devil's Play

I still had bad luck with ravings, but couldn't deny the value of it while it was in the yard.  I decided to run Dream Twist which is cheaper to cast and in flashback mode as well, along with Memory's Journey to save my ass if I discard a vengeance or snappy.  Twist loads the yard up early and fast and puts the immediate threat on the table.  Along with Alchemy, I was able to find cards and load my yard faster than both of our options in the OP.
  
I attracted quite a crowd yesterday when people were watching me drop snappy, cast a ponder (from the yard for damage) then unsummon (I was running those at the time) to win games.  It was kind of funny because not only were unsummons great vs. the Pod deck, but it also slowed down Wolf Run.  Then I could cast the unsummon from the yard by dropping and repicking the snapcaster for increased gheyness.

My favorite part of the Burn version was Past in Flames.  This seems like a necessary card in this deck.  I know it is expensive, but late in the game, this thing just takes flight.  I have enough 1 and 2 mana spells to light things up with it.

I'm thinking about splashing green mana to make use of Memory's Journey's flashback.  I would just remove some u/b or get rid of some basics for it.

Ghost Quarter is a must have.  Not only did I totally ruin Wolf Run's day with it, but I was able to get my self out of an early game mana-screw by crushing my own land to be able to mana leak a birthing pod.

I am going to try Silent Departures in my deck today but I am worried about not having the versatility of Unsummons Instant-Speed.  This card is just nasty in this deck and serves two purposes.
 
I still don't love the geist flame vs solar flare or Wolf Run, but I have it sideboarded against RDW and Weenie Aggro instead of Blades.

Pandemic, if you would like to type up and message me a better OP, please do.  I must admit, the one we have now needs some work.  I will let everyone know how my setup goes tonight.  It is a standard tourney, so I will be sure to bring my "A" game.
Memory's journey seems like a mistake. What does it get you? No card advantage, that's for sure. Also. 3 Leaks and 4 Dissipates!? seems incredibly strange. For one, the mana just doesn't seem good enough to be able to cast a double blue spell turn three (not with my luck at least). Also, leak is infinitely better against aggro match-ups. I might be able to see this being a viable strategy against control or something but definitely not mainboard.
update 10/13

1 drop (4)
2x dismember
2x dream twist (flashback 2)

2 drop (14)
1x Phantasmal Image
2x Incinerate
3x desperate ravings (flashback 3)
4x mana leak
4x think twice (flashback 3)

3 drop (13)
3x Slagstorm
4x forbidden alchemy (flashback 7)
4x burning vengeance
2x dissipate

3-5 drop (4)
4x snapcaster mage (flashback X)

2-X drop (1)
1x devil's play (flashback 3-X)

Lands (24) – 14U/12R/5B
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Blackcleave Cliffs
6x Mountain
7x Island

Flashback (14)
2x dream twist(2)
3x Desperate Ravings(3)
4x Think Twice(3)
4x Forbidden Alchemy(7)
1x Devil's Play(3-X)

since you guys want to consolidate threads, figured I'd post my list in here. It certainly has a more general title.

Also, the reason I like Dismember over DB/GFtT is because it doesnt require a black mana source. SOmetimes, something just NEEDS to die early on and with 6-8 black mana sources, you won't be hitting it reliably enough.

Also, I went down to 2 Dissipates to fit other stuff in (removal/phantasmal image) but I'm not sure if those are suitable substitutes.
heading off to a standard tournament in a couple hours.

Sideboard:
2x ratchet bomb
1x jace, memory adept
1x go for the throat
1x blackcleave cliffs
1x tribute to hunger
1x slagstorm
1x shimmering grotto
2x ancient grudge
2x geistflame

 @tony


     i guess the "game" plan for our 2 versions are fairly different. while at the core of it they seem very close the extra stuff is where we seperate pretty good. i'm not really looking to dump stuff in the yard (i would argue with all the gy hate being sided against flare decks this might be a bad idea) i'm more looking to control the early game with burn which then serves dual purpose from the flashbacks. then control mid/late with permission or burn if dudes are small. for me it's all about drawing whenever i can because they also then serve the dual purpose. i would rather get my use out of the card by drawing and casting instead of self mill. then either finishing it off with a past, or flat out nuking their face with a big devils. (ironically dream twist is technically making you lose 3 random cards while ravings is making you lose only 1 while also putting one in your hand)


i'll probably mb about 2 ghost quarters.


i would keep the unsummon over the other option. to me being instant is too valuable as you can present multiple threats, now they not only have to worry about counters in hand or gy, but also the snap on the board. and tying them up on their own turn after they pump mana into a wolf run seems good.


 i might look into making a semi transformative sb for matches against flare or control decks, something with either more counters, or unsummons and surgical's.


---------------------------------


 @falz  i dont think your quite getting our debate?. from your list it almost looks like your trying to "jam" the 2 decks we are discussing into one while making it more of a tri color. ours are straight u/r  with tiny splashes mostly for single cards or flashbacks.


 this may be a reason you have dual blue mana issues.


 where are you going with your list? do you want it more control, more gy dump, or more burn style?


 also the memory's journey was explained. it's for getting back "accidentally" milled vengeances or snapcasters.


 

The reasoning behind my decision to run Dream Twist over Desperate Ravings is because A. It has a cheaper flashback.  B.  It puts cards in the gy (most of which have FB) quickly and cheaply.  C.  I can flash it back with Past in Flames more easily at 1 mana.  And, I know I get to draw with Ravings, but I like to hold on to snapcasters and unsummons so I can mana leak or dissipate when I want to.  A lot of times I need to hold on to a crucial flashfreeze or Dissipate late in the game to counter a big Titan I know is coming.  If I drop this card into the yard, I ruin my chances of shutting down a huge play.  With Memory's Journey I am now removing the black mana and adding green duals so I can not only flash that back for 1 mana, but also better utilize Ancient Grudge.  Fog in the SB?

The problem with this deck is that it is just too slow and too dependant on good starting draws.  Against RDW if I didn't have the slagstorms or geistflames I had no answer.  Granted, I had horrid luck up there tonight and drew 1 slagstorm in 8 games against Mono Red and 1 BV in 3 games vs Solar Flare.  The problem with this deck is Red's incredibly **** arsenal of poor damage spells.  I can imagine this deck working 10x better with Searing Blaze, Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, etc.
 
I still think that Day of Judgement would be the best card for this deck if 3 colors is the way.  This deck is just too matchup sensitive.  My best matchup is against Wolf Run Green of all things.  Solar Flare is just more powerful and has just as many answers.  Red Deck wins gets more consistent opening draws and doesn't have to wait a game to SB in appropriate cards.  There needs to be a balanced version of this deck.  We have to figure this out.
 
Unsummon is one of the best cards in this deck and I think ur really missing out if you don't try it.

I think that there actually needs to be some kind of balance between our two versions.  All the big decks were played at my shop this evening and there were benefits to each setup but the deck didn't have a strong enough identity.  I will test the following setup tomorrow:

Lands    24:
3     Rootbound Crag
2     Hinterland Harbor
4     Sulfur Falls
7     Mountain
8     Island

Creatures    4:
4     Snapcaster Mage
 
Burn Spells     8:
1     Devil's Play
3     Geistflame
4     Incinerate
 
Control Spells     6:
3     Mana Leak
3     Dissipate
  
Filter Spells    12:
3     Dream Twist
2     Memory's Journey
4     Think Twice
3     Forbidden Alchemy
    
Setup     6:
4     Burning Vengeance
2     Past in Flames

Side Board    15:
3     Ghost Quarter
2     Combust
3     Flashfreeze
4     Ancient Grudge
3     Slagstorm

 i think i've set my list/ sb pretty well.  as it's meta dependant and theres tons of aggro i'll be running mainboard burn style like my original list. since it has so much cheap burn for rdw or other aggro. and making my sideboard :


4 unsummon / 3 grudge / 3 flashfreeze / 3 surgical extraction / 2 (insert random big dude) maybe frosty.


 that way i still have the matches in my favor right out of the gate for aggro matches, and can transform my deck to a much more control oriented version after board.  i.e... side out burn for unsummon, surgical, and big guy.  still leaning towards frost at the moment since he has a not quite shroud ability. and can tap stuff.


 i still dont like incinerate..     i think my burn package will most likly end up being 1devils play 4 galvanics 2 geistflame and either 2 gutshot or 2 arc trail. i like having the almost gurantee that i can nuke their 1 drop right off the bat.


 i still dont know how you have trouble with rdw. like you said it has to be horrendus luck. whenever i play them nothing they have survives their turn in the first 3-5 turns which is basically when they are in topdeck mode. i'm fairly sure the biggest toughness they run is 2.  (not counting koth)

Just had another idea to stay with my original idea of adding the ever-powerful black to the mix.

Land     24:
4     Drowned Catacombs
2     Darkslick Shores
4     Dragonskull Summit
4     Sulfur Falls
4     Island
6     Mountain
 
4     Snapcaster Mage
 
1     Devil's Play
4     Bump in the Night
4     Incinerate
2     Arc Trail

4     Mana Leak

3     Gitaxian Probe
4     Think Twice
4     Forbidden Alchemy

4     Burning Vengeance
2     Past in Flames

SB:
3     Ghost Quarter
1     Devil's Play
2     Surgical Extraction
2     Arc Trail
2     Flashfreeze
3     Ancient Grudge
2     Sever the Bloodline

i do like bump in the night there. not so sure about probe.


 the manabase seems a tad slow though.. seems like most of it will probably come in tapped. since there are so many unless isle/mtn lands and not to many basics.


i'd switch up the island /mtn numbers or make em 5/5

i actually really like the black version of this.  my thoughts...
 the manabase:  4 sulfur falls
                           4 drowned catacombs
                           4 darkslick shores
                           4 mountain
                           6 island                           2 swamp          i chose this because red is a minor player here it seems you want an abundance of blue and favor black more or even to red.                        my take on it would be something like..
    RED:                                                           Blue:                                                            Black:
  4 burning vengeance                           4 snapcaster mage                                 4 bump in the night
  2 past in flames                                   4 think twice                                            2-4 tribute to hunger
                                                              4 mana leak                                             2-4 other removal
                                                              3 dissipate
                                                              4 unsummon
                                                              3 forbidden alchemy
 i definatly like tribute as removal against big decks... otherwise id run 4 spot removal...
  i think this is basically abusing bump in the night with snap/unsummon/vengeance 3 then5damage with one vengeance yes please!  as a wincon.. sort of turns snapcaster into a 3 mana goblin grenade but giving u a body instead of saccing one.
 this list is definatly lacking draw power compared to the other 2... past in flames might not be needed here. so that's 2 slots.. maybe drop the counters to 4 leaks 0-2 dissipate? to add more removal?
 let me know what ya think.  
     figuring out how to format the spacing is a pain in the ass when your half awake..  

 


 

i actually really like the black version of this.  my thoughts...
 the manabase:  4 sulfur falls
                           4 drowned catacombs
                           4 darkslick shores
                           4 mountain
                           6 island                           2 swamp          i chose this because red is a minor player here it seems you want an abundance of blue and favor black more or even to red.

                       
I think this is a better mana base for sure, ty.

my take on it would be something like..
    RED:                                                           Blue:                                                            Black:
  4 burning vengeance                           4 snapcaster mage                                 4 bump in the night
  2 past in flames                                   4 think twice                                            2-4 tribute to hunger
                                                              4 mana leak                                             2-4 other removal
                                                              3 dissipate
                                                              4 unsummon
                                                              3 forbidden alchemy



I like this setup a ton.  I would still stick with 4 Bump and 4 incinerate because I want the ability to do 3 damage to the face with 1 spell.    
i definatly like tribute as removal against big decks... otherwise id run 4 spot removal...


Exactly.  I would SB in 2-3 Tribute to Hunger or Sever the Bloodline against bigguns.

i think this is basically abusing bump in the night with snap/unsummon/vengeance 3 then5damage with one vengeance yes please!  as a wincon.. sort of turns snapcaster into a 3 mana goblin grenade but giving u a body instead of saccing one.


Exactly.  This is all about going over the top and burning face, which is something I think this deck NEEDS to do more of without having to rely on burning vengeance in the early going.

this list is definatly lacking draw power compared to the other 2... past in flames might not be needed here. so that's 2 slots.. maybe drop the counters to 4 leaks 0-2 dissipate? to add more removal?



I know it lacks 4 cards in the draw power section, but you are replacing those with cards that you will burn off, hit an opponent directly and be able to reuse with PiF and Snappy.  This makes this deck require less draw power although having 4 Forbidden Alchemy is just **** anyways.  I definitely think PiF needs to be in here.  Imagine casting PiF and then paying 2 mana to hit for 6 dmg (via BitN) and 4-8 on top of that depending on how many BVs are on the board.  Sounds great to me!
 
let me know what ya think.   
figuring out how to format the spacing is a pain in the ass when your half awake..



Lol... tell me about it.

I really think this is the best way to go.  My main issue with this deck is that is has but one win condition.  This keeps pressure on the opponent all game and allows for bigger direct strikes late in the game.  Arc Trail (based on its ability to hit a player as well) will fit in nicely against weenie aggro.  Sever the Bloodline or Tribute would be great against Bigguns.  Even surgical extraction could do some awful things buy exiling all snapcasters vs. Solar or dissipating a titan then Extraction vs. WRG. 

Now I really miss Lightning Bolt!
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