Autodamage, Would you use it against players?

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We have had player based autodamage with magic missile becoming an atwill autodamaging attack it seems to be alright.

But what about using autodamage against players, besides the negation of their defenses does anyone see any issues with building a monster or two that deal about minion auto damage to PCs? 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

i do it all the time. last game i ran i had minions that when they died they screamed a chilling scream and everyone within 5 squares took autodamage (psychic). it wasnt being mean or anything, it actually led to interesting strategy by the players about when to kill them and where to be.

i am for anything as a dm OR as a player that makes encounters challenging, provided it has good flavor. i am more likely to use an autodamage effect than i am not to
Autodamage is nothing new. Auras have been doing it since MM1.
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Autodamage is nothing new. Auras have been doing it since MM1.



Well aura's are different, Im talking about a monstr just going: "You take 12 damage!" no rolls no nothing.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Eh, sure why not? As long as you keep it a bit balanced it's fine. There are actually already auto-damage powers although most I've seen are triggered by being bloodied.

But I don't see what's so special that you shouldn't use it.
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Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

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Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
i do it all the time. last game i ran i had minions that when they died they screamed a chilling scream and everyone within 5 squares took autodamage (psychic). it wasnt being mean or anything, it actually led to interesting strategy by the players about when to kill them and where to be.

i am for anything as a dm OR as a player that makes encounters challenging, provided it has good flavor. i am more likely to use an autodamage effect than i am not to



Still a bit different then I am talking about, Aura's and triggers can be controlled or at least avoided by players,

Im talking about a monster jsut attacking with an autodamage effect. 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Autodamage is nothing new. Auras have been doing it since MM1.



This.  At higher level play (level 15+), autodamage auras are a reliable way to seriously threaten players without using ridiculously overlevelled monsters. Minions that do autodamage on attack or death are a great way to boost encounter challenge at high level without bogging down combat.

Autodamage attacks on standard monsters are a little different. My players really don't like them (not sure why, it's really just a ranged aura) so I use them only occasionally and only when thematically appropriate for the monster.
Calculate average monster at-will DPR based on its damage entry and attack bonus from the MM3 On A Business Card and use that as your Monster Magic Missile.

It'll be balanced.  Whether it's interesting or not is another question.  Basically, it would lead to a more reliable surge drain in the encounter you use it in.  I'm not sure that's necessarily good, but it probably isn't bad either.
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Note that you can still defend against auto-hits. It's harder, but not impossible. It still triggers mark punishment, it's still suspectible to resistance, you still have to see your target.

If you're worried about the "hard to defend against" part you can even add a custom trigger to the monster that needs to be met to use it, like "only works when close to this arcane obelisk" or something. 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Alot of wizard-like creatures in my campaign have magic missile. Its a pretty signature spell.

Just don't over-use it.
I'd be very hesitant to.

One of my first D&D games (as a player), had our DM use a Paladin NPC that auto knockdowned a member of our group.  Just backhanded.  No attack role, no save, "I didn't want to slow things down."  As an isolated incident, that's fine.  But it only got worse from there.  I fear the slippery slope.  It screams fiat antagonism.
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i do it all the time. last game i ran i had minions that when they died they screamed a chilling scream and everyone within 5 squares took autodamage (psychic). it wasnt being mean or anything, it actually led to interesting strategy by the players about when to kill them and where to be.

i am for anything as a dm OR as a player that makes encounters challenging, provided it has good flavor. i am more likely to use an autodamage effect than i am not to



Still a bit different then I am talking about, Aura's and triggers can be controlled or at least avoided by players,

Im talking about a monster jsut attacking with an autodamage effect. 



yes ive used that too, for example an elite with a minor action ranged autodamage effect
Auto-damage is nothing new. As a DM, I would use a monster attack power that auto-damages as long as it didn't make the combat one sided against the PCs.

Isn't any power that does half damage on a miss effectively auto-damage? Sure, its varied, but it will always do damage (unless the target has enough resistance).

I love auto-damage minions

Skeletal mages that cast magic missle, tons of fun!
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Isn't any power that does half damage on a miss effectively auto-damage? Sure, its varied, but it will always do damage (unless the target has enough resistance).




Though i dont think they are prolific in Atwill powers.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

what about using autodamage against players, besides the negation of their defenses does anyone see any issues with building a monster or two that deal about minion auto damage to PCs? 

Assuming it's balanced, I think it's great: it speeds up the game, and keeps the attacker relevant.

Just don't over-use it.

This.

Pretty much only this, in just about all of the things we can come up with for our games.

Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Just don't over-use it.

This.

Pretty much only this, in just about all of the things we can come up with for our games.





it's true in all aspects of everything.  do the right amount of everything and everything will be good.
Doesn't the Fellcourt creep or ruffian do 5 on a hit, 3 on a miss?

Isn't any power that does half damage on a miss effectively auto-damage? Sure, its varied, but it will always do damage (unless the target has enough resistance).




Though i dont think they are prolific in Atwill powers.




I beleive I remember a knight with a power directly analogous to fighters reaping strike power.


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

But what about using autodamage against players?

[In my opinion] No, [although I don't have any specific explanation for this opposition to share with you, let me just say that I think] because it's boring.



Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
i recently encountered a trap that auto-hit anyone not behind total cover within range 20.

automatically taking 10+6 just for stepping out into a room is not fun.

in the case of monsters it's not that bad i guess, i could easily see it getting very old pretty quickly though.
Just don't over do it.

All things in moderation... except fun.
It depend if the Autodamage is strong and what level you are.

In a recent LFR game i played CALI3-1 Malice of Mintar There was a Zhent War Mage in an encounter  that was using Magic Missile  repeatedly, dealing 9 damage automatically and i must say it was irking. Being 1st level playing High Tier, it was difficult and a near TPK. 

 

Yan
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