Second Opinions: Rogue|Assassin Pact Initiate/Daggermaster/Perfect Slayer

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This exploit has probably already been done but I wanted to toss my take on the cunning sneak/shadow walk combo on the board. It's a level 30 build but should be playable at all levels of play. some things that I'm not sure of are the order of feat aquisition after level 11 and a few of the attack power choices. One other thing I'm not sure works is the method I was using to spend eyebite on the mage's parrying dagger to refresh suprise strike.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Mika, level 30
Human, Assassin/Rogue, Daggermaster, Perfect Slayer
Hybrid Assassin Option: Hybrid Assassin Fortitude
Pact Initiate Option: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Hybrid Talent Option: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid) Option: Cunning Sneak (Hybrid)
Outlaw Level 5 Feature Option: Forest
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Dark Sun
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Outlaw
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 10, DEX 30, INT 20, WIS 12, CHA 16
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 8, DEX 18, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 13
 
 
AC: 46 Fort: 45 Ref: 46 Will: 45
HP: 157 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 39
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +30, Athletics +21, Bluff +23, Intimidate +25, Perception +21, Stealth +37, Streetwise +25, Thievery +30
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +20, Diplomacy +18, Dungeoneering +16, Endurance +15, Heal +16, History +20, Insight +16, Nature +16, Religion +20
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Outlaw Attack: Surprise Strike
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Assassin Feature: Assassin's Shroud
Wild Talent Cantrip: Body Equilibrium
Assassin Attack 1: Inescapable Blade
Rogue Attack 1: Gloaming Cut
Warlock Attack 1: Eyebite
Rogue Utility 2: Great Leap
Assassin Utility 6: Ghost of the Rooftops
Warlock Utility 10: Ethereal Sidestep
Daggermaster Attack 11: Critical Opportunity
Daggermaster Utility 12: Meditation of the Blade
Rogue Utility 16: Trap Master
Assassin Attack 17: Shadow Fire
Assassin Attack 19: Phantom Assault
Daggermaster Attack 20: Deep Dagger Wound
Rogue Utility 22: Somersault Dodge
Rogue Attack 23: Killer's Retreat
Assassin Attack 25: Assassin's Scalpel
Perfect Slayer Utility 26: Killer's Judgment
Assassin Attack 27: Last Word
Rogue Attack 29: Assassin's Point
 
FEATS
Level 1: Cursed Shadow
Level 1: Pact Initiate
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Mark of Passage
Level 6: Hidden Insight
Level 8: Roguish Killer
Level 10: Acolyte Power
Level 11: Arcane Familiar (Arcane Wisp)
Level 12: Light Blade Expertise
Level 14: Lethal Shroud
Level 16: Backstabber
Level 18: Weapon Focus (Light blade)
Level 20: Brutal Shroud
Level 21: One with Shadow
Level 22: Superior Initiative
Level 24: Great Fortitude
Level 26: Superior Will
Level 28: Epic Fortitude
Level 30: Epic Will
 
ITEMS
Battle Harness Swordwing Armor +6 x1
Timeless Locket +6 x1
Belt of Vim (epic tier) x1
Circlet of Indomitability (paragon tier) x1
Lightstep Slippers x1
Reflexive Psychic Shroud (heroic tier)
Ring of Giants x1
War Ring x1
Devastating Ki Focus +6 x1
Shadowdancer's Gloves x1
Executioner's Bracers (paragon tier) x1
Mage's Parrying dagger +1 x1
Rhythm Blade Dagger +1 x1
Fleet Hero Tattoo (paragon tier) x1
Exodus Knife
Thieves' Tools
Adventurer's Kit
Climber's Kit
Disguise Kit
Footpads
Silk Rope (50 ft.)
Glass Cutter
====== End ======


Is there a particular reason why you chose Daggermaster as your paragon path? Because you seems to be missing some nice feat that combo well with crit-fishing. Two-weapon opening etc.

Also, you seems to have avoid some of the most highly rated rogue power. Low Slash, Tumbling Strike (!!), Knockout (since you plan to take Assassin's Point), Hilt Slam
I might consider doing some more crit related feats but I'm not sure what I should drop most of the feats are built around the stealth combo and at-will utilities (Ethereal Sidestep and Somersault Dodge). One with shadows or maybe superior initiative? Or should I be less concerned with my defenses?
Now I may have to respectfully disagree as far as I know the only ways to access shadow walk and cunning sneak (and not the once per encounter version) without paragon hybrid or multiclassing is to hybrid rogue and assassin and use hybrid talent to achieve cunning sneak and pact initiate to access cursed shadow and unlock shadow walk. As for perfect slayer so long as I have a shroud on a target I have CA and once per encounter I can break the 2 shroud cieling and have it stick indefinitly at the top of the progression.

resulting in MAD I'd rather have a strong focus in Dex than split Dex/Cha. Also in my opinion Shroud allows you to stagger striking dice and Roguish killer makes shroud more desirable than curse since if you miss your rogue dice kick in adding to the hybrid's synergy.

Edit: Also as much as people hate on shroud 24-36 (lethal/brutal shroud x 2)  is a better avg. than 15-33 (Brutal/Killing Cursed Spell (assuming a 28 Int)) and if it's only used at full charge alternating with Rogues 5-40 (Backstabber Sneak Attack) the bonus dice outshine even straight warlock with the same feat investment by 2.25 per turn.

again I have to disagree Warlock is only slightly more durable roguish killer is far more usefull when your cracking shrouds more often and the reason I normally hate dice stacking hybrids (like rogue, warlock, and ranger) when mixed is because you have to invest in both to have them be completly useless to half of the attacks, where as assassin|rogue sneak atk acts as filler while you charge your shrouds and as a safety net for when you roll like garbage on a shroud activation (like I often do with my terrible luck).  

Okay, so I'm missing a weapon talent, first strike, guild training, shadow step and shade form all of which are irrelevant to the builds purpose of leaping in and out of the shadows from unexpected places and dropping some good damage in between. the only extraneous part of the build is eyebite which through the mage's parrying dagger can be swapped for suprise strike.

If what you want is simply striking from shadow and slink back into hiding then a pure cunning rogue is prob a better choice. Cunning rogue/any pp/Thief of Legend makes youthe stealthiest. If you are paranoid, mc avenger for the paragon path that makes you immune to tremorsense.
Mellored had a thread that help with optimizing stealth.
You're better off using a variant of this build (Executioner/Warlock):

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

If you like the flavor of the O. Assassin, take Hybrid Talent Shade Form then the feat to give you the Warlock Class Feature Shadow Walk. Level 6 Utility Darting Shadow to replace Cunning Sneak.
Ugh..what am I thinking of then. =(
Now I may have to respectfully disagree as far as I know the only ways to access shadow walk and cunning sneak...



I think one of the issues is the why you'd want to do that. It seems like it would be great in theory, but it actually has two specific practical problems:
As a striker, you end up doing significantly less damage - you lose a +1 to hit and the ability to use sneak attack with MBAs out of turn. This is ignoring the feats that you're spending to make this happen or picking an option that lets you hide rather than do +Str damage as you might have if you're a Rogue. That's a negative compared to a typical Rogue.

As a party member, you're essentially not a target. So you're encouraging your DM to focus fire on the rest of your party rather than target you. Encouraging your DM to do correct tactical decisions is a negative.

The only positive is that you can become hidden basically at-will which provides defensive values and CA, but why you need defensive values as a weak striker who is encouraging his DM to focus fire on other members of his party, I don't know. And CA is easy to get now, particularly if you're willing to spend a feat.
If you dont mind waiting till 16 you can just be a thief with any of the many items that give concealment and the default thief pp.
Speaking as someone who is playing a similar build (I went Rogue|Paladin PMC Warlock for mass marking shinanegins) Mommy has a point about what your perma-hide will do to the group. No monster had any problem ignoring my mark and making the rest of the party suffer. I've not taken more than one attack in any given encounter, but every attack that I didn't take, another party member did.

You can try to mitigate this with some more controller-y power selection. Going for rattling attacks, applying the blind condition, or something like that. As Mommy said, you are giving up damage for this trick and should probably use it as more than a way to get CA.
Have someone in the party take Comrade's Succor and/or be an Artificer or hybird Artficer and you provide the surges. That is what it does to the party (if your party is willing to work with you, but complex characters never really work with uncooperative parties).

I mean the Kaido version of this build basically either forces enemies to attack at a -5 or take a Sneak Attack enhanced OA. Not just for one enemy but for every enemy on the board. You're generating n sneak attacks per round where n is the number of enemies or they are attacking at a -5. That isn't counting what you might want to do on your turn, that is all off-turn. That is a ton of damage and well worth letting someone else in the party get focused.

As a party member, you're essentially not a target. So you're encouraging your DM to focus fire on the rest of your party rather than target you. Encouraging your DM to do correct tactical decisions is a negative.



There are plenty of catch-22s you can and should set up as a permahidden build. Even if you don't (though you should!), with careful positioning you should be able to pick up a few OAs per encounter. When truly hidden, your enemies may not know you're standing right next to them, and will tend to provoke OAs when they move. Because of catch-22s and the fact that enemies lack pertinent information regarding the cost of their movement, hiding, done right, should often result in foes making incorrect/bad tactical decisions.

As a party member, you're essentially not a target. So you're encouraging your DM to focus fire on the rest of your party rather than target you. Encouraging your DM to do correct tactical decisions is a negative.

 

There are plenty of catch-22s you can and should set up as a permahidden build. Even if you don't (though you should!), with careful positioning you should be able to pick up a few OAs per encounter. When truly hidden, your enemies may not know you're standing right next to them, and will tend to provoke OAs when they move. Because of catch-22s and the fact that enemies lack pertinent information regarding the cost of their movement, hiding, done right, should often result in foes making incorrect/bad tactical decisions.



A catch-22 is what happens when there are 2 bad choices to make, not when there's a correct painful choice to make that has some punishment attached.

When the result is that the build does less damage overall than a similarly tricked out one, then that's still the same problem. You've set up your party to take your damage for them while not providing as much damage as a build with similar level of cheese.

A catch-22 is what happens when there are 2 bad choices to make, not when there's a correct painful choice to make that has some punishment attached.

You're kinda nitpicking here. I do understand that the key to a good catch-22 is to boost the effectiveness of the most attractive option (I started, but never finished a rather lengthy guide extending this concept to a two-defender scenario, two years ago). A 'lopsided' catch-22 still imposes some cost on your enemies, it's just that it's not quite as optimized as it could be - it would be better to spend relatively more resources on penalizing the most attractive option. On top of that, I think all catch-22s will technically have a better and a worse choice, although the choices may be close. The trick is to make the best choice as bad as possible.

When the result is that the build does less damage overall than a similarly tricked out one, then that's still the same problem. You've set up your party to take your damage for them while not providing as much damage as a build with similar level of cheese.

This is true, but it needn't always be the case. For instance, it's not that hard to make a build that can reliably gain at least 1 OA per round thanks to hidden. 200+ DPR is by no means out of the question (moreover, you can add action denial into the mix). At that point, the gains far, far exceed the tiny cost of not contributing your surges (for that matter, most parties contain at least one PC that rarely spends any surges in combat, and nobody complains. To wit, nobody made a similar argument against a greatbow ranger). The build above may not sufficiently capitalize on the hidden rules but the response shouldn't just be that being permahidden is a bad idea, but that the build needs to have more tricks to benefit from the hidden status.


The fact that certain specific builds can make the benefits outweigh the cost does not mean permahidden is not a bad idea in the majority of cases.

I agree with this. But that doesn't make it a bad tactic. Many great tactics are only good in conjunction with certain other game elements. 

This is true, but it needn't always be the case. For instance, it's not that hard to make a build that can reliably gain at least 1 OA per round thanks to hidden. 200+ DPR is by no means out of the question (moreover, you can add action denial into the mix). At that point, the gains far, far exceed the tiny cost of not contributing your surges (for that matter, most parties contain at least one PC that rarely spends any surges in combat, and nobody complains. To wit, nobody made a similar argument against a greatbow ranger). The build above may not sufficiently capitalize on the hidden rules but the response shouldn't just be that being permahidden is a bad idea, but that the build needs to have more tricks to benefit from the hidden status.



People have been arguing against that greatbow Ranger in CharOp since 3e...real greatbow Rangers stay close enough to make Defenders worth being Defenders.

The problem is that the more tricks you have to try to benefit from being hidden, the more likely it is that you could simply employ the same level of cheese and be more effective. An example of this is your Eladrin Eldritch Executioner - you're combining the cheese of two striker mechanics, spending a bunch of feats on being able to consistently get invisibility+concealment...yet...

A Warlock using roughly the same options can be set up to do better damage, more control, etc...and be generally targetable. Being targetable is a plus, particularly when a DM is going to react to you bending the system. There are basically two big ways to react:
Make larger threats to the party.
Make threats that overcome your system bending.

Normally, the 1st is what you want to see - but you're not targetable, so larger threats to the party end up killing everyone else... 
An example of this is your Eladrin Eldritch Executioner - you're combining the cheese of two striker mechanics, spending a bunch of feats on being able to consistently get invisibility+concealment...yet...

A Warlock using roughly the same options can be set up to do better damage, more control, etc...and be generally targetable.



Haha, I'm so glad you brought up that example.

The build (with some refinements in the comments thread that I have yet to integrate fully into the front page version) does about 240 DPR, assuming that the target chooses not to attack it. If the target chooses to attack it, it'll guess the square wrong and miss (and the build will still do about 120 DPR). Moreover, regardless of the target's choice, it's proned every single round. Even 120 DPR puts the build in "optimized" benchmark territory - 240 DPR puts it into "highly optimized" territory and within spitting distance of "nerfbat please". This doesn't even include nova potential, which should add about 100-200 DPR.

What warlock build were you referring to?

Oh, and by the way, my build isn't the only build to make use of stealth to boost DPR. There was a DPR king candidate toting about 400 at-will DPR thanks to stealth just the other week.

No, it does make it a bad tactic. On that cost-benefit analysis, both being hidden and having to stay hidden are costs, in addition to what you paid for the combo in the first place.



Typically in a costs-benefit analysis you weigh the costs, ya know, against the benefits. The statement above is very myopic.

As an aside, just wondering, how does it cost the party as a whole when your prone opponent chooses to stand, move, and provoke an OA in order to attack anybody but you? An OA which then goes on to prone them? That's action denial (not to mention DPR).
 particularly when a DM is going to react to you bending the system. There are basically two big ways to react:
Make larger threats to the party.
Make threats that overcome your system bending.



Err, system bending? What makes you call it system bending? You could call anything system bending.
And anyway, DMs could respond to any optimization much the same way... e.g. adding frost immunity vs. frostcheese builds. What makes this any different?
^that.

Perma hidden does have a cost (feat, item), but it reduces your enemies options (more defense). That by itself generally isn't a good trade.

However, stealth combo's great with OA's and catch-22 stuff (marks). Which can make the investment worth while.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Err, system bending? What makes you call it system bending? You could call anything system bending.



You're doing high Striker DPR and impossible to target? Do you think that's an intent of the system? It isn't breaking the system as there's a way around the problem at that level(give everything blindsight), but the choices from a DM standpoint or being another player at that table aren't pleasant.

And anyway, DMs could respond to any optimization much the same way... e.g. adding frost immunity vs. frostcheese builds. What makes this any different?



Because you don't need to add frost immunity to every encounter to counter a frostcheese character...
MwaO, what do you think the intent of the Cunning Sneak rogue build was? It's not actually that huge a leap from that into permahidden builds.
MwaO, what do you think the intent of the Cunning Sneak rogue build was? It's not actually that huge a leap from that into permahidden builds.



The intent of Cunning Sneak was someone who could attack and then duck around corners after attacking. Concealment as an at-will is usually difficult to get, particularly at the time of the release of Cunning Sneak.
Not that difficult. And I am pretty incredulous regarding the possibility that Wizards didn't put 2 and 2 together: it's possible for a Cunning Sneak rogue to get concealment at will without too much trouble. Phantom Chaussures (popularly referred to as "Shadow Walk: the Item") take care of that detail. Shadow Band makes it even easier. I cannot believe that Wizards didn't think that Cunning Sneak rogues would tend to seek out such items or features. There are also numerous ways of doing this before level 18 - it just requires a little more work.

I'm just really doubtful regarding the idea that these game mechanics weren't made with awareness of permahide possibilities. Elusive Hexer... do you really think they were unaware? It wasn't even released all that long ago, and all it requires is a hit, followed by a move 3 squares or more. That's literally all it requires. 1 feat, single classed warlock; no hybridizing or multiclassing. Would you call that "cheese" also?

Taken to the extreme, this line of reasoning would suggest that Wizards are categorically unaware of any synergy between game elements. "Oh, Deft Blade? It wasn't intended to increase damage, it was intended to make builds more accurate". Nobody, yourself included I expect, would say something so silly. So clearly we have to give Wizards at least some credit. The question is: where do we draw the line? Given how easy it is to set up a permahidden build (All you need is Elusive Hexer + Warlock), I'm unwilling to believe that Wizards had no idea it would be used that way.

Also, your argument seems to have changed somewhat. You started with "This isn't a very powerful option" and have now dropped that line of argument to pursue an almost opposite line of reasoning, paraphrased as "This is so overpowered that DMs will take steps to negate it." Which one is it?

And if it's the latter, well, as I said, DMs can always do that. Having an optimized build (other than perhaps a leader) generally makes the party more effective as a unit, resulting in the DM having to up the ante to keep things challenging. If your party members aren't as optimized, they'll feel the hurt as a result. This is true in general and isn't specific to invisible-spamming builds. What goes for the EEE goes for virtually every optimized striker, defender or controller in the game.

For example, consider builds that hit on a 2+ (or who otherwise have very high DPR). DMs may choose to counter this by increasing the defenses, hit points, level, or number of enemies in an encounter. If the rest of the party isn't very optimized, however, once again, they'll feel the hurt (e.g. they might be stuck hitting on a 14+ while the optimized PC still hits on a 10+).

Lastly, I fully expect, and to within reason, desire a DM to occasionally craft encounters that challenge the various shticks that my PCs have going. E.g. occasionally going up against skirmishers that can shift X and attack; enemies with large blasts; or enemies with blindsight. Those are the specific weaknesses of the EEE, and it's only fair that occasionally the build will have to contend with such challenges. Of course, even without stealth, the build does competent striker-level DPR, so it's not the end of the world.

On the other hand, I don't think it's incumbent upon me or any other player to make their builds douchebag-DM-proof. DMs can choose to give all enemies truesight, just as they can choose to only include level+10 foes in an encounter. To respond to a player that wants their character to be very very sneaky in such an extreme manner is just a dick move, plain and simple. It's just like saying "hey, your character is permanently blinded/cursed/crippled!" There's really nothing more to be said about it.
Not that difficult. And I am pretty incredulous regarding the possibility that Wizards didn't put 2 and 2 together: it's possible for a Cunning Sneak rogue to get concealment at will without too much trouble. Phantom Chaussures (popularly referred to as "Shadow Walk: the Item") take care of that detail. Shadow Band makes it even easier. I cannot believe that Wizards didn't think that Cunning Sneak rogues would tend to seek out such items or features. There are numerous ways of doing this before level 18 - it just requires a little more work.



Even if you get perma-concealment as a Cunning Sneak, that simply doesn't help all that much because your damage is lousy. You need additional options to make it happen.

Also, your argument seems to have changed somewhat. You started with "This isn't a very powerful option" and have now dropped that line of argument to pursue an almost opposite line of reasoning, paraphrased as "This is so overpowered that DMs will take steps to negate it." Which one is it?



It is complicated - you're picking a poor team option while going the route of breaking MBAs. It is basically a KAM build who doesn't go KAM, nor does it spend resources on being really good at hitting, but rather, spends resources on being perma-hidden. When in reality, half your build can be mostly duplicated with a single feat(Skill Power), the ability to fly and the stealth skill by a KAM Warlock who has a secondary score in Dex instead of Int. Who can then pick up things such as Prime Punisher, Called Shot, Frostcheese, Polearm Momentum, Impaling Spear and a Frost Gouge.

It can't do perma-hidden consistently as you can, but its damage is much more foolproof and scary and it gets the OAs. Of course, it is much more obvious about why it is scary.

This is true in general and isn't specific to invisible-spamming builds.

For example, consider builds that hit on a 2+ (or who otherwise have very high DPR). DMs may choose to counter this by increasing the defenses, hit points, level, or number of enemies in an encounter. If the rest of the party isn't very optimized, however, once again, they'll feel the hurt (e.g. they might be stuck hitting on a 14+ while the optimized PC still hits on a 10+).



Except those enemies can attack the optimized PC if given a preference because he's the great threat they've heard about. By being hidden, you've removed that option...increasing the threat level of the enemies doesn't threaten you, it punishes the other players by increasing the chance they fall unconscious or get killed.

On the other hand, I don't think it's incumbent upon me or any other player to make their builds douchebag-DM-proof. DMs can choose to give all enemies truesight, just as they can choose to only include level+10 foes in an encounter. To respond to a player that wants their character to be very very sneaky in such an extreme manner is just a dick move, plain and simple. It's just like saying "hey, your character is permanently blinded/cursed/crippled!" There's really nothing more to be said about it.



You're not asking to be very very sneaky. You're asking to be the guy doing nearly top-tier striker damage while not being targetable. There's a difference. I'm not saying the DM ought to do that, I'm listing the possible options.

What that really means is that because the in-game options don't work, the out of game options are the ones that will get used. i.e. change your character, other players drop out, asked to leave, etc...
Even if you get perma-concealment as a Cunning Sneak, that simply doesn't help all that much because your damage is lousy. You need additional options to make it happen.

I don't get the relevance here. Are you arguing that Wizards' intent is to make it only possible to be permahidden if you have lousy damage?
It is complicated - you're picking a poor team option

I understand the criticism you're levelling against permahidden builds but those costs are completely negated in some permahidden builds. The EEE knocks the target prone. When the target stands and moves to attack the build's allies, the build just knocks them prone again with an OA. They won't be hurting ANYONE. How is this a poor team option?It's a freaking amazing team option.
while going the route of breaking MBAs.

How? It's not that broken. The build only makes 1 MBA on its turn, for very respectable (but not completely overpowered) damage. Not DPR king levels of damage. The high DPR comes from the fact that the build can attack again off-turn for similar damage. Is this broken? Uhh, are defenders broken? They do much the same thing.
It is basically a KAM build who doesn't go KAM, nor does it spend resources on being really good at hitting, but rather, spends resources on being perma-hidden.

Skip to the end of the thread for the EEE - the version I'm currently talking about is very accurate - about +40 to hit vs. Reflex (not including charging). That's 2+ against even level foes, so still good against much higher level foes.
When in reality, half your build can be mostly duplicated with a single feat(Skill Power), the ability to fly and the stealth skill by a KAM Warlock who has a secondary score in Dex instead of Int.

I could have taken KAM with this build. I didn't because there's nothing interesting about posting yet another KAM build. Yes, the build would do more damage with KAM.
Who can then pick up things such as Prime Punisher, Called Shot, Frostcheese, Polearm Momentum, Impaling Spear and a Frost Gouge.

The build I'm referring to has all these things (in their light blade form). Except that it doesn't take Polearm Momentum. It uses slashing and world serpent's grasp instead. 

It can't do perma-hidden consistently as you can, but its damage is much more foolproof and scary and it gets the OAs. Of course, it is much more obvious about why it is scary.

Yeah, about the only difference I'm seeing here is that it has KAM. So I really don't see your point. Also, if hidden is less consistent, it's probably fair to say that the OAs are less consistent also. Unless your enemies really don't want to attack you then they'll opt to stand still and swing at what they can see.
Except those enemies can attack the optimized PC if given a preference because he's the great threat they've heard about. By being hidden, you've removed that option...increasing the threat level of the enemies doesn't threaten you, it punishes the other players by increasing the chance they fall unconscious or get killed.

Hmm? How does it increase the chance? I'm isolating them and knocking them prone with an OA. They just wasted their turn completely.

You're not asking to be very very sneaky. You're asking to be the guy doing nearly top-tier striker damage while not being targetable. There's a difference. I'm not saying the DM ought to do that, I'm listing the possible options.

Of course it's an option. Of course there's that risk. That risk applies whenever you bring a highly optimized PC into a less optimized party, though. It's really no different to bringing LDB's Hurricane build to a group made up of people who don't take expertise, pick Linguist for RP reasons, or make other "eccentric" character build choices. 

What that really means is that because the in-game options don't work, the out of game options are the ones that will get used. i.e. change your character, other players drop out, asked to leave, etc...

I agree but at this stage your argument is boiling down to "the build is too optimized for casual play". True, but last time I checked we're in the CharOp forums, right?

...In what world is a Rogue that always has CA doing lousy damage? I stopped reading right there. ^.^