Paizo vs WOTC

24 posts / 0 new
Last post

I actually do NOT like the pathfinder system (just as I did not like 3E), but I have to say I am impressed with Paizo's products. I find it really disheartening and confusing when I see how much material and stuff they are coming out with and then look at what's coming out under Wizards. I can't imagine that Paizo has a bigger budget or staff. It's mystifying. 


 I bought  the PDFs of their monster manuals just for the art and nostalgia value, and I remember thinking -- why can't wizards do stuff like this? Each monster was on one page. (What a concept.) They are coming out with their third MM soon..


 WOTC seems to be developing stuff at a glacial rate compared to these guys. 


 The new book on Magic Item's Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium looks good as does the Fey book, so that is nice, buy next year there are TWO books announced. 


 I really love the 4E rules, but I feel let down by WOTC in terms of product support. I like being creative; I guess I will just make up my own stuff, but I also like being able to buy cool products.


 I'd really kill for skirmish and war game rules for 4E. That would be awesome. I'd love a new world. I'd love a new monster manual, and a book of deities and epic level stuff (give us something to shoot for). I'd love more DM stuff. 


 What would really be great is something truly surprising and original. 


 Haven't these guys heard of "publish or perish?" 



I have just read the amazon review of Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and I see: 1) limited print run, 2) a lot reprinted material. 

What are there guys spending their budget on? 
i have mordenkainens, and none of it is reprinted material exept for very minor things (like the now expanded list of adventuring gear) which is less then half a page. 

WOTC is spending their budget on VTT, encounters, game days and on expansions to their tools. 

last i checked (and correct me if i am wrong) paizo dosent have any of these things. public play programs for promotion cost alot of money. 

so my best guess most of the WOTC budget is going to marketing.  
i have mordenkainens, and none of it is reprinted material exept for very minor things.



No.

Superior Weapons Rules: Reprinted.
Weapon Table: Mostly reprinted (I think 4 new weapons out of 20)
Superior Implements Rules:Reprinted
Impelemnts Table: Entirely Reprinted
Item Enchantments: Many "greater/lesser" versions of old items, a few outright reprints
Adventuring Gear: Many reprints, many old items appearing with a new name (ie, Investigation Gear is just the Inquisitives Kit relabeled)
Hirelings and Henchmen: Entirely Reprinted
Thread moved to more appropriate forum.

All around helpful simian

i have mordenkainens, and none of it is reprinted material exept for very minor things.



No.

Superior Weapons Rules: Reprinted.
Weapon Table: Mostly reprinted (I think 4 new weapons out of 20)
Superior Implements Rules:Reprinted
Impelemnts Table: Entirely Reprinted
Item Enchantments: Many "greater/lesser" versions of old items, a few outright reprints
Adventuring Gear: Many reprints, many old items appearing with a new name (ie, Investigation Gear is just the Inquisitives Kit relabeled)
Hirelings and Henchmen: Entirely Reprinted



superior weapons: i think you should probably include rules of what your putting out
superior implements: see above
implements table: see above
item enchants: this is less then 10 items, and i dont see any outright reprints
adventureing gear: god forbid they tell you all of your options
hirelings and henchment: ok, sure got me there
 
They are working on 5E...

HAND OF KARSUS!

 

 

item enchants: this is less then 10 items, and i dont see any outright reprints



Map of Unseen Lands for sure, along with a bunch of other Wondrous Items that nobody knew about but actually existed in AVI and AVII. 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
i have mordenkainens, and none of it is reprinted material exept for very minor things.



No.

Superior Weapons Rules: Reprinted.
Weapon Table: Mostly reprinted (I think 4 new weapons out of 20)
Superior Implements Rules:Reprinted
Impelemnts Table: Entirely Reprinted
Item Enchantments: Many "greater/lesser" versions of old items, a few outright reprints
Adventuring Gear: Many reprints, many old items appearing with a new name (ie, Investigation Gear is just the Inquisitives Kit relabeled)
Hirelings and Henchmen: Entirely Reprinted

Yeah, I suspected that the Virtual Table Top would be part of the trouble. I really doubt it would be something that I would use, and I would be an ideal candidate (long-time gamer, distant friends, tech-savvy). I think it is a ill-considered project, but I doubt they will abandon it. 


 


Well, I am happy to buy Paizo products instead -- I already ordered a case of their minis, and I will probably buy the next Monster manual. I can always convert them to 4E using the online monster builder. WOTC still has my DDI subscription, and I am seeing an improvement in their online content (mostly due to Chris Perkins and Bruce Cordell).


 


Hopefully WOTC's new mini line will look good. And I will take a look at the Emporium book, the Fey book and the dungeon survival book. Long ago back in the early days, the publishing schedule was also quite slow. 



They are working on 5E...



Citation needed.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
item enchants: this is less then 10 items, and i dont see any outright reprints



Map of Unseen Lands for sure, along with a bunch of other Wondrous Items that nobody knew about but actually existed in AVI and AVII. 

Are they? It is interesting how many community members say this, even if they are joking. How many of us really think that? It’s a problem for wizards either way.



They are working on 5E...



Citation needed.


www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums/showthr...


HAND OF KARSUS!

 

 

One thing to consider.

Pathfinder isn't just a D&D clone, and it isn't competing with D&D. It isn't the 3.5 remixed rules (A houseruled OGL) that sell it, it is the Setting. It began to sell once Dragon and Dungeon ended their runs. (And the names became placeholders to inferior articles inside DDi)

Piazo is very clever, making their own setting and having a detailed world to explore. It isn't that Wizards and Paizo are best of pals, but Pathfinder has a different marketing ideal, and the Pathfinder Society seems to connect with consumers more that what Wizard as offered thus far. They changed up some front end stuff for the classes, fixed Grappling, clarified a lot of rules and shifted a lot of bad/broken stuff. Mainly, though, they focused on the campaign front, adding to the Lore of the setting and have produced fewer actual books than the slew of books that Wizards have.

It is my overall feeling that Pathfinder will eventually be converted to the new edition of D&D, though I think it will be for 5th edition instead of the Essentials tainted current one.

My point, focused as it is on Pathfinder, is that both are doing their own thing and doesn't have a thing to do with the other. Wizards thinks Paizo is beneath them and Paizo is gracious for Wizards to let them continue using the OGL.

Oh, and 5th edition can't get here soon enough for me. I just hope the lessons from the Essentials mis-step is taken and the new edition is a step forward instead of being 1st edition with new graphics.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Pathfinder isn't just a D&D clone



Well, no, because it is D&D. Just....3rd edition D&D under the OGL.

it isn't competing with D&D.



There are legions of Pathfinder evangelists that give a distinctly different impression. There are a few obnoxious threads on the Paizo forums crowing about how Pathfinder is outselling D&D that also really kinda point to a competition thing going on.

It isn't the 3.5 remixed rules (A houseruled OGL) that sell it, it is the Setting.



Unsurprisingly, I have to disagree. Pathfinder is just 3.5 with a fresh coat of paint, and the Pathfinder setting (Golarion? Golion? No, the last is the Japanese name for Voltron or something...) I have heard described as a generic fantasy setting. Granted, I've never looked at it, but I also don't have much interest in looking at it either. But, given that the Pathfinder evangalists I've encountered in person have never even mentioned the setting as one of the pros for Pathfinder (and perhaps a pair of the online guys mentioned it), I'm really not seeing the setting as a big draw to Pathfinder.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
i have to agree with Ogiwan. PF's setting doesn't do much to grab my attention any more then Grayhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc....

it's a fantasy kitchen sink that, from an outsider's point of view, simply seems to create analogues to modern places and changes the name.

i'm honestly far more interesting in settings like Eberron, which has a unique take on magic and is geographically setup to be an "adventurer's world", or Dark Sun which is build around a few certain themes (mad max meets D&D).

mechanically speaking PF does little to actually fix my issues with 3.5 since all it did was slap on a coat of blue paint on top of the peeling red paint and rebrand it as "new and improved". yes it did cleaned up Grappling & Tripping... so instead of being unweildly and generally useless, it's now manageable and generally useless. cleaning up a system without making it more of a viable choice doesn't make it much better. just cleaner. over the course of our PF campaign the only person who ever grappled was the clay golem or my black tentacles spell when i want to remove mooks from play... everyone else just ignored the subsystem.

other then that it slightly tweaks all classes, but doesn't do much to change the actual balance issues that plague the system, mainly that casters still have WAY more available options then the non-casters & the overall uselessness of the skill system due to how easily spells bypass them.

the few odd issues it did actually try to solve required Paizo to solve them the same way 4th ed solved my 3.5 problems: by removing them wholesale and replacing that mechanic with something else (see some spells like polymorph). 
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
I don't play Pathfinder either, but I love Paizo. I really wish I could support them, but they're currently doing nothing that I'm interested in. Playing Pathfinder would feel like taking a step backwards in gameplay. 4e is everything I want out of D&D.

I hope they do well, though, and continue to thrive. 
I believe the setting is more than the "kitchen sink." It does have a fair amount of material that didn't go with the core of 3.5, races and new classes, but overall the "fluff" of the various factions, countries, and the world is a lot more detailed and interesting than the PoL or the Greyhawk "default" of the two recent editions. The setting is added to with various products and recently had the "Sea" something or other come out.

As a default, it is a good standard to start from, and a good way to envision the changes to the "system" of the OGL through the character's eyes. I do realized that most of the "bad" that 3.5 had is not taken care of with the fixes that PF has, but it does well with what it has. I like, for example, that the Sorcerer is a complete class now, instead of a wizard lite.

I just think that the setting is the selling point. The Pathfinder Society is a great help in that regard, providing gaming at local stores durring the weekend with a good overall system of modules made specifically for that purpose.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I believe the setting is more than the "kitchen sink."



Well, ok, cool. But, is there anything that explains the world in detail? Or can you tell us what you like about it? I'm not waiting for you to say something I can pounce on and denounce you as a elf-wizard-loving grognard; i'm just curious.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
Going into tanget....


First thing, it is made quite clear that the humans are not all the same. Depending on where you are from, the differences between the cultures for the humans is varied and interesting. The other races are explained and have reason to be there, unlike some of the later races in the 3.5 "Greyhawk" setting, and they are not afraid to say that Half Orcs are created from the rages of pillage and ravages of war as well as mention that they do not "fit in" either society even if they are true bred. Gnomes are also fleshed out instead of being Halfling midgets.

The different territories and kingdoms have a fair amount of detail, almost making them separate settings into themselves for the bigger ones.

The overall setup for the Pathfinder Society also brings the player into the power struggle between the factions that represent the kingdoms, people, and organizations. It also gives them some playtime within an organized structure with the system that can be gone to every week. Something that D&D is missing at the moment.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
It's quite simple.  Paizo is actually SUPPORTING their campaign setting.  Every month, Paizo puts out a 96-page Adventure Path volume.  They also put out 64-page Campaign Setting books, 32-page Player Option books, and 32-page modules on at least a semi-monthly basis.  And they're now putting out trade paperback novels approximately quarterly.  In short, Golarion is getting a LOT of support.

Compare this to the level of support that WOTC is giving their campaign settings.  Now, I'm not a DDI subscriber, so maybe it's putting out massive amounts of campaign support.  But in terms of actual print products, Golarion is getting more support in the average quarter than any of WOTC's setting have gotten since 4E began.

It is my overall feeling that Pathfinder will eventually be converted to the new edition of D&D, though I think it will be for 5th edition instead of the Essentials tainted current one.



Not gonna happen.  Paizo had developed their own fan base, and it's substantial enough that they can continue with their own system in the future, and not be subject to the whims of WotC for their future business.  Will it every happen?  Doubtful, but I won't say it's a certain no.  But it damn sure won't be during 5th edition...more like 10th edition...and only if Paizo's business takes a pretty solid blow for some reason or another.

Really, if 5th edition becomes better recieved than what the current edition is, be that 4th edition or Essentials slide downgrade, then I can see Pathfinder becoming more focused on the setting with the conversion to the current (5th) edition. That assumes that all the dumb things that Essentials twists into prezels is, at the very least, made a part of the system instead of tacked on like now.

I agree somewhat that Piazo would not jump in willy nilly at the drop of a hat, but I doubt that they have resigned themselves to never doing it at all.
Terms you should know...
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner) Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level. Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds. Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
56902498 wrote:
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2. The new sub-sub-classes will be: * Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind. Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2). These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing. (Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
Thanks to how laughably and cripplingly bad 4E is Paizo have a HUGE player base of people who actually enjoy roleplaying games rather than tactical combat games to work with. Hence why they've been outpacing WOTC in sales despite their meagre marketting team and why they're able to produce so much fantastic content.

WOTC killed D&D but luckily Paizo came along and helped it to survive. 
Thanks to how laughably and cripplingly bad 4E is Paizo have a HUGE player base of people who actually enjoy roleplaying games rather than tactical combat games to work with. 



Yeah, the focus on tactical combat is ultimately what put me off 4E despite the fact that I liked a number of the changes it made from the prior edition.  

Indeed, some of the issues  I had with 3rd/3.5 revolved around its tactical focus.  And since Pathfinder didn't really change any of that I saw no reason to get into it.  After all, I had plenty of 3rd/3.5 books to draw on and what I'd seen of Pathfnder's setting didn't interest me at all.
At least I have my proper avatar now, I guess. But man is this cloud dark.