Copy of my formal complaint

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This is a copy of the email I just sent to Wizards ( wizardscusthelp@wizards.com ) after my formal complaint on the forum was ignored. If anyone else makes any similar complaints, I invite you to post what you have sent here also.

Complaint:
Dear Sir/Madam

I wish to complain about the lack of support myself and the rest of the DoTP community have received from Wizards. I posted a formal complain about this in the DoTP section of the official Wizards forum, and made Wizards staff aware of it on September 15th. It has not even been acknowledged let alone addressed. This is disgraceful.

These are games with great potential, and with just a bit more effort from the developers they could be truly outstanding. They are currently let down by mis-codings, lack of rules knowledge by the programmers or no rules supervision, lack of testing and poor design decisions, some of which were made a long time ago and haven't been ammended.

The original DoTP (D9) has clearly been abandoned. It contains bugs and issues that I reported well over a year ago, some even further back than that, including some which were present at the release of the game. I bought two downloadable content expansions (DLC) in the hope that the bugs would be fixed over time. I submitted detailed and accurate bug reports to both Wizards and Stainless, and these were acknowledged. However only about half of these issues have been fixed, and the rest remain in the game to this day. This is an appalling way to conduct business, and I would like a refund for the game and both the DLC I bought, since they introduced yet more bugs, many of which haven't been fixed either. I can reproduce on request a list of these issues and can easily prove they still exist in the game.

We were given the impression that a renewed effort was going to be put into the new DoTP (D12). But it became apparent that this game too has large numbers of bugs and issues. Wizards created a thread in the DoTP forum specifically for reporting bugs. Myself and the rest of the community came forward with large numbers of reports. To begin with these were collected and updated by Wizards, but now that thread seems to have been abandoned as well as there have been no updates for some time and no reason given for this. The thread is here:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

When the DLC was released, we were expecting some sort of patch to fix all the bugs that had been reported. But apart from fixing a few features, none of the hundreds of reported card bugs have been fixed at all. I have a personal list of bugs of which I can personally confirm and reproduce, which I have sent to Wizards and Stainless:

www.playhaven.com/guides/360/magic-the-g...

This contains over 40 problems, and this is just on the Xbxox 360 platform, just ones I have personally confirmed and only for offline play so doesn't count the huge number of online problems. I submitted these to Wizards as I discovered them, starting right after the release, and not a single one has been fixed. As a community we've asked again and again for information about when or if anything is going to be fixed and we've been told absolutely nothing.

The fact that the DLC got released before any fix (if there even is one planned) shows that Wizards obviously places a higher priority on getting more money in than fixing the broken product that people have already paid for. I understand that asking for information about future content is inappropriate, but I certainly don't think that's the case when we've paid for something with huge amounts of bugs of which none are getting fixed, to ask what's going to be done about it.

As a long time Magic player, I feel ignored and cheated by both of these products. I've held off from a complaint such as this for a long time to give Wizards the chance to act on all the great feedback the community have given. But there has been absolutely nothing, and no communication of any value either. I request either an explanation of the situation and the promise that these bugs will be fixed, along with a reasonable timescale, or else a full refund for D12 as well. Wizards have hidden behind the notion that they don't like to promise things in case they don't deliver them, but if they can't promise to fix bugs in a game which represents their product then they have no business releasing it in the first place.

I'd like also to raise several really bad "design decisions" that have been made. DoTP has taken some liberties with the rules of Magic, which I accept when they make sense, and one of these is to make choices on your behalf when they would appear to be obvious. For example, there are several life gaining artifacts in the game such as Angel's Feather which offer you the choice of gaining 1 life when a spell of a certain colour is cast. The game makes this choice for you, deciding that gaining 1 life is obviously a good thing. Up until D12 this was fine, but what wasn't considered is that a new card, Punishing Fire, in D12, can be retrieved from your graveyard if an opponent gains life. This means that the controller of the life gain artifact is forced to trigger the Punishing Fire because they cannot decline the life gain. It should therefore be clear that the choice of whether to gain life or not is not obvious any more, because it can have a detrimental effect. I request this be made optional.

Secondly, cards such as Garruk's Packleader, and Murder of Crows in the DLC which offer you the choice to draw a card under certain conditions make the decision for you too, forcing you to draw a card. This is a bad decision in general, simply because drawing cards can eventually lose you the game. They do indeed try to draw from an empty library, literally losing you the game because of an optional ability. It's particularly bad with Murder of Crows because you are then also forced to discard, triggering the new card in the DLC Liliana's Caress. So you are being potentially double punished for something which is meant to be an optional, beneficial ability. It should always be optional.

Thirdly, when a creature is enchanted with multiple Totem Armors, you should be allowed to choose which one gets destroyed instead, if you wish to save a creature from destruction. However the game makes this decision for you, choosing the one with the lowest converted mana cost. This is far from an obvious choice and should never be made for the player. Also, you are not given the option to regenerate if it's available, which would then save you from losing any Totem Armors. Please make this a player decision.

Fourthly, as listed in my bugs and issues list, the timing for gang blocking has been altered from the correct rules for no apparrent reason. I've officially asked Wizards whether this was an intended change, and they acknowledged the question, but over two months later they have yet to even admit that there has been a change, or that they intended such a change. So I've been ignored yet again.

If such forced decisions are to remain in the game, I would request please that a tick-box is added to the options, something like "auto decisions". Like auto resolve and simplified targeting, if it's turned on, the game makes these decisions for you. If turned off, you get a dialogue window asking you what you would like to do in these situation.

I sincerely hope you take what I have said into account, as an experienced Magic player with good rules knowledge. You should be able to check the validity of everything in my personal bug list with any rules expert in your staff, and see that the game has these things wrong. And this is to say nothing of the serious bugs which plague online play. Although I am now complaining, I still maintain my offer of help, and will be happy to do whatever I can to cooperate with Wizards and Stainless to see the game get fixed. I can make videos of my bugs, talk them through with anyone, give my opinions, whatever will help. As a community we've given a lot of effort and time freely into trying to get this game rebuilt and we feel wholly unappreciated and ignored.

If I do not receive a satisfactory response within a reasonable timescale, I shall be forced to consider other options such as going to Microsoft directly or other channels. I'll be posting a copy of this email onto the DoTP forum to make public my displeasure, which I have done so for a long time on there, and shall copy across any replies I receive unless asked to do otherwise.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

Yours faithfully

Robert Watts (robvalue on the forum)
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
Well I think that was certainly a thought out formal complaint, where you got across everything that needed to be said (I'm sure you could have written a much longer complaint Tongue out) without sounding rude or standoffish. You've made it a crusade to find the bugs in the games and to try and get them fixed with one hand, as well as helping people with the other, and I hope for that Wizards will at least give you (and us) a decent response because at this point, you seem to have more stock invested in this game then either Wizards or Stainless do.

The response, or lack thereof, will likely tell us what we can expect for the future of not only the game, but the "format", and if it is anything but a scheme for a quick buck.
This is a copy of the email I just sent to Wizards ( wizardscusthelp@wizards.com ) after my formal complaint on the forum was ignored. If anyone else makes any similar complaints, I invite you to post what you have sent here also.

Complaint:
Dear Sir/Madam

I wish to complain about the lack of support myself and the rest of the DoTP community have received from Wizards. I posted a formal complain about this in the DoTP section of the official Wizards forum, and made Wizards staff aware of it on September 15th. It has not even been acknowledged let alone addressed. This is disgraceful.

These are games with great potential, and with just a bit more effort from the developers they could be truly outstanding. They are currently let down by mis-codings, lack of rules knowledge by the programmers or no rules supervision, lack of testing and poor design decisions, some of which were made a long time ago and haven't been ammended.

The original DoTP (D9) has clearly been abandoned. It contains bugs and issues that I reported well over a year ago, some even further back than that, including some which were present at the release of the game. I bought two downloadable content expansions (DLC) in the hope that the bugs would be fixed over time. I submitted detailed and accurate bug reports to both Wizards and Stainless, and these were acknowledged. However only about half of these issues have been fixed, and the rest remain in the game to this day. This is an appalling way to conduct business, and I would like a refund for the game and both the DLC I bought, since they introduced yet more bugs, many of which haven't been fixed either. I can reproduce on request a list of these issues and can easily prove they still exist in the game.

We were given the impression that a renewed effort was going to be put into the new DoTP (D12). But it became apparent that this game too has large numbers of bugs and issues. Wizards created a thread in the DoTP forum specifically for reporting bugs. Myself and the rest of the community came forward with large numbers of reports. To begin with these were collected and updated by Wizards, but now that thread seems to have been abandoned as well as there have been no updates for some time and no reason given for this. The thread is here:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

When the DLC was released, we were expecting some sort of patch to fix all the bugs that had been reported. But apart from fixing a few features, none of the hundreds of reported card bugs have been fixed at all. I have a personal list of bugs of which I can personally confirm and reproduce, which I have sent to Wizards and Stainless:

www.playhaven.com/guides/360/magic-the-g...

This contains over 40 problems, and this is just on the Xbxox 360 platform, just ones I have personally confirmed and only for offline play so doesn't count the huge number of online problems. I submitted these to Wizards as I discovered them, starting right after the release, and not a single one has been fixed. As a community we've asked again and again for information about when or if anything is going to be fixed and we've been told absolutely nothing.

The fact that the DLC got released before any fix (if there even is one planned) shows that Wizards obviously places a higher priority on getting more money in than fixing the broken product that people have already paid for. I understand that asking for information about future content is inappropriate, but I certainly don't think that's the case when we've paid for something with huge amounts of bugs of which none are getting fixed, to ask what's going to be done about it.

As a long time Magic player, I feel ignored and cheated by both of these products. I've held off from a complaint such as this for a long time to give Wizards the chance to act on all the great feedback the community have given. But there has been absolutely nothing, and no communication of any value either. I request either an explanation of the situation and the promise that these bugs will be fixed, along with a reasonable timescale, or else a full refund for D12 as well. Wizards have hidden behind the notion that they don't like to promise things in case they don't deliver them, but if they can't promise to fix bugs in a game which represents their product then they have no business releasing it in the first place.

I'd like also to raise several really bad "design decisions" that have been made. DoTP has taken some liberties with the rules of Magic, which I accept when they make sense, and one of these is to make choices on your behalf when they would appear to be obvious. For example, there are several life gaining artifacts in the game such as Angel's Feather which offer you the choice of gaining 1 life when a spell of a certain colour is cast. The game makes this choice for you, deciding that gaining 1 life is obviously a good thing. Up until D12 this was fine, but what wasn't considered is that a new card, Punishing Fire, in D12, can be retrieved from your graveyard if an opponent gains life. This means that the controller of the life gain artifact is forced to trigger the Punishing Fire because they cannot decline the life gain. It should therefore be clear that the choice of whether to gain life or not is not obvious any more, because it can have a detrimental effect. I request this be made optional.

Secondly, cards such as Garruk's Packleader, and Murder of Crows in the DLC which offer you the choice to draw a card under certain conditions make the decision for you too, forcing you to draw a card. This is a bad decision in general, simply because drawing cards can eventually lose you the game. They do indeed try to draw from an empty library, literally losing you the game because of an optional ability. It's particularly bad with Murder of Crows because you are then also forced to discard, triggering the new card in the DLC Liliana's Caress. So you are being potentially double punished for something which is meant to be an optional, beneficial ability. It should always be optional.

Thirdly, when a creature is enchanted with multiple Totem Armors, you should be allowed to choose which one gets destroyed instead, if you wish to save a creature from destruction. However the game makes this decision for you, choosing the one with the lowest converted mana cost. This is far from an obvious choice and should never be made for the player. Also, you are not given the option to regenerate if it's available, which would then save you from losing any Totem Armors. Please make this a player decision.

Fourthly, as listed in my bugs and issues list, the timing for gang blocking has been altered from the correct rules for no apparrent reason. I've officially asked Wizards whether this was an intended change, and they acknowledged the question, but over two months later they have yet to even admit that there has been a change, or that they intended such a change. So I've been ignored yet again.

If such forced decisions are to remain in the game, I would request please that a tick-box is added to the options, something like "auto decisions". Like auto resolve and simplified targeting, if it's turned on, the game makes these decisions for you. If turned off, you get a dialogue window asking you what you would like to do in these situation.

I sincerely hope you take what I have said into account, as an experienced Magic player with good rules knowledge. You should be able to check the validity of everything in my personal bug list with any rules expert in your staff, and see that the game has these things wrong. And this is to say nothing of the serious bugs which plague online play. Although I am now complaining, I still maintain my offer of help, and will be happy to do whatever I can to cooperate with Wizards and Stainless to see the game get fixed. I can make videos of my bugs, talk them through with anyone, give my opinions, whatever will help. As a community we've given a lot of effort and time freely into trying to get this game rebuilt and we feel wholly unappreciated and ignored.

If I do not receive a satisfactory response within a reasonable timescale, I shall be forced to consider other options such as going to Microsoft directly or other channels. I'll be posting a copy of this email onto the DoTP forum to make public my displeasure, which I have done so for a long time on there, and shall copy across any replies I receive unless asked to do otherwise.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

Yours faithfully

Robert Watts (robvalue on the forum)



Good luck to you, did a similar one ages ago guarantee they will give you some incident number and will say they will pass this on to people higher on, still waiting from these so called higher people after 2 months, even though one of my questions got answered "due to the expansion been released" my others have not such as why there is hardly any support for the game

Thanks for the support guys, I appreciate it

If they do fob me off, I will certainly be taking it further as I think I have a good case and plenty of evidence. This is their chance to step up to the plate, let's hope they do. I'd much rather see this resolved by them taking responsibility and communicating with us, but if they refuse to do that then they'll leave me no option.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
If you love something so much you spend all of your day in its forums, logic dictates you spend 5 dollars to enhance your game. No, that is not how it is here. Instead, you fixate on the bugs and yet still cling on the game. When the developers care so little apart from making this good game, you are the only one with so much bitterness. And nobody else on this forum.
   
These noble and principles thingy is not my kinda thing. My motto is if you like it, pay for it pal. If you don't, you shouldn't even bother with it.

This is so confusing I will never understand this. I hope you find some clarity with your life.  
If you love something so much you spend all of your day in its forums, logic dictates you spend 5 dollars to enhance your game. No, that is not how it is here. Instead, you fixate on the bugs and yet still cling on the game. When the developers care so little apart from making this good game, you are the only one with so much bitterness. And nobody else on this forum.
   
These noble and principles thingy is not my kinda thing. My motto is if you like it, pay for it pal. If you don't, you shouldn't even bother with it.

This is so confusing I will never understand this. I hope you find some clarity with your life.  




Sign, internet. Someone tries to do something good, and someone feels the need to come and insult him.

How does this bolded statement not 100% conflict with your posting? you seem to not like robs post, then why are you bothering commenting on it?

Good luck wth your email rob.
Yeah, nobles and principles suck, man.

/sarcasm.

/lament about state of society.


Nice work, Rob.  Well put.
Yes, like ALL games it has it's bugs. Sounds like to me you are spendning more time testing for bugs and diling complaints then playing the game it's self. You complaint will get filed into a black hole, I am sure. 
Yak Cast - MMO Podcast: http://yak.mmoSmackTalk.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/yakmmosmacktalk Follow me on Facebook: http://facebook.com/YakCast
I for one respect Rob for taking so much time to help further develop this game, even though most of it is being ignored. I think some of you forget what it's like to be passionate about something. The fact of the matter is, he has what it takes to stand up to a company and voice his opinion. He has determination to strive through what many wouldn't, and that's admirable. Just knowing Rob is doing this makes me feel better about playing this game, even if it's laden with bugs. It gives me hope that it could be polished one day. I suppose most of you have heard the squeaky wheel gets the oil? Same applies here, good luck Rob! Please keep us updated  

Any developer and or publisher would do well to heed the voice of the community; afterall, the life of their product entirely depends on our willingness to purchase again in the future. 
Awesome man, I got half a mind to do it myself, although mine tend to go unanswered....and once even got me banned from a website.

Honestly though, I would give these guys 7 days.  If not I would contact Microsoft and Marketplace customer support/complaints.  Not only them but I would use the Better Business Bureau as well to file a complaint.
While I support and appreciate Rob for what he does for the community, I find this one filled with bitterness. Obviously, he wants to play DLC1, yet he wouldnt do it without most of the bugs cleared away. Yet, we know Stainless will only do it in their own time if ever. They are already working on Carmageddon and the next installment of Duels probably as we speak. 

The Ctrl + Q bug in PC and its fix last month showed us that they don't care much about small card malfunctions and bugs, but keep track of big picture stuff. They removed that game-breaking bug on PC with a patch 3 days after it was discovered. Keep in mind that consoles and their patching procedures (esp. X-Box) are probably holding them back as well.

Any developer and or publisher would do well to heed the voice of the community; afterall, the life of their product entirely depends on our willingness to purchase again in the future. 


Honestly though, I would give these guys 7 days.  If not I would contact Microsoft and Marketplace customer support/complaints.  Not only them but I would use the Better Business Bureau as well to file a complaint.


I know there's at least one office of THQ that has either threatened to, or has already, cut their Quality Control department. The guy in charge of that particular team has adopted the 'fire and forget' approach. Push out a game, slam the door and move onto the next project so no resources are being tied up in old news.

Not every game company is like that of course, but a precedent has been set for that kind of behaviour. It's not recommended, it's certainly frowned upon, but it's not illegal. Bugs or no, DotP delivered on everything they said with regards to content.

That in mind, good luck Rob.  

Thanks for the support again, I'm glad most of you are behind what I am doing

This is about being sold a faulty and untested product which does not live up to the quality one would expect from a game published under the logo of Microsoft (or on any system). I'm just trying to get the game improved for everyone.

I got a reply:

reply #1
Hello Robert,  Thank you for your feedback. We appreciate your assistance in refining our products. I have passed your suggestion on to the appropriate team. I assure you that they review each and every suggestion. Please let me know if I can be of further help.  Take Care and Good Gaming!


Here is my response:

complaint #2
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate you passing my complaint to the appropriate team. I would expect a further reply from them once they have read what I have written, as the issues I have raised have not been addressed in this reply.

I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
Great letter, Rob. Well done, very well written.
Hope they take the chance and give a proper reply. The current one looks so standard. Anyway, I am always optimistic and I think we will see a few improvements to the game in the future.
By the way: You could have mentioned the Suggestions Thread in your letter, too...

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

Thanks Crazytoast

Sorry I didn't mention it, I was trying to get across just the main points about why the game is faulty and needs to be fixed. Your excellent thread is more about improving the overall standard of the game, and so if I get anywhere with this communication I will certainly point them towards it if they seem willing to work on the game. If they won't fix the most basic problems, there's not much hope they will consider new features.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
Yeah, your right. Fix bugs first, then implement new features.

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

(...)
   
These noble and principles thingy is not my kinda thing. My motto is if you like it, pay for it pal. If you don't, you shouldn't even bother with it.

(...)  



This comment makes me sad. Really. To bad my english isnt so good to tell u what i think after reading this BS comment.

Maybe this summs it up: My motto is if u like robs post, agree with it, if u don't, you shouldn't even bother with it.

U got it?


@ Rob: good luck 

Though I doubt very much that anything will come of the complaint, I’d still like to applaud Rob’s commitment to this game, and his efforts in helping to improve it.


I am with you Rob. I am not buying the DLC or any future DotP games.

Inb4 "but it's only 5 dollars!", well, I don't think they deserve free donuts and coffee for tomorrow's breakfast, so in not giving them this pleasure lies my pleasure

P.S: I recommend you add the link to this complaint to that "yellow ! sign" part of your guide on PlayHaven and GameFAQs, so that people can know what you believe in.
I am with you Rob. I am not buying the DLC or any future DotP games.

Inb4 "but it's only 5 dollars!", well, I don't think they deserve free donuts and coffee for tomorrow's breakfast, so in not giving them this pleasure lies my pleasure

P.S: I recommend you add the link to this complaint to that "yellow ! sign" part of your guide on PlayHaven and GameFAQs, so that people can know what you believe in.



I don't agree with not buying the DLC. Seriously, what do you expect your $5.00 to buy the people that made the game? Looking at it like that is just ridiculous. Considering how many people have purchased it already, you're not hurting Wizards/Stainless by denying yourself the DLC.

If you're okay with limiting yourself to just the core game, then by all means. But don't think you're causing them any great concern by not buying it. That damage is already done at this point, the only one you're doing disservice to is yourself if you still enjoy the game.
I am with you Rob. I am not buying the DLC or any future DotP games.

Inb4 "but it's only 5 dollars!", well, I don't think they deserve free donuts and coffee for tomorrow's breakfast, so in not giving them this pleasure lies my pleasure

P.S: I recommend you add the link to this complaint to that "yellow ! sign" part of your guide on PlayHaven and GameFAQs, so that people can know what you believe in.


Well, then you probably won't be hanging around here for too long, because the core DoTP2012 is already getting kinda out-of-date, with the recent expansion mixing things up.

Damn the system and its hypocrites! You quit your quest and venture into the slums of the Gruul Clans!
Damn the system and its hypocrites! You quit your quest and venture into the slums of the Gruul Clans!
Take THE QUEST FOR RAVNICA today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

 



I don't agree with not buying the DLC. Seriously, what do you expect your $5.00 to buy the people that made the game? Looking at it like that is just ridiculous. Considering how many people have purchased it already, you're not hurting Wizards/Stainless by denying yourself the DLC.

If you're okay with limiting yourself to just the core game, then by all means. But don't think you're causing them any great concern by not buying it. That damage is already done at this point, the only one you're doing disservice to is yourself if you still enjoy the game.



So by your rationale, I can just generate as much garbage as I want, because since most other people do it already, I won't be doing the planet much extra harm.
It is because most people think that way that nothing is changed. It is because most people don't care about $5 that Wizards does also not have to care about making their game something of actual quality.
Who knows, maybe alot of people that own the core game have not purchased the DLC because they knew they would find even more bugs, but they just aren't as vocal as me (I would say the vast majority of gamers are passive ones that never really interact with the community in forums like these). Maybe if you sum it all up Wizards might have 'lost' a sizeable sum. I can only hope as much.

In the end, all I know is that by giving them more money I would be telling them it is OK to behave in this carefree way, and since it is not, I don't give them the money. And the core game still satisfies me just fine.

I'll pay good money just to have the bugs fixed. I hope they do something about this complain. Thanks robvalue for taking the lead!

Splattercat- This complaint is all about the quality of the product I've already paid for. It's nothing to do with buying or not buying the DLC. I included the mention of it in the letter to demonstrate the priorities Wizards are showing. But I've absolutely no desire to pay money to play a heavily bugged DLC to add to the already bug-ridden main game. I've pretty much lost interest in playing it altogether now anyhow due to the lack of support. But I like to come to these forums to help other players still.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
It's a shame that computer and video games seem to exist in a totally mystical world with regards to consumer rights.

If I buy a subscription TV service and the screen blacks out every 30 minutes I don't accept this.  I get it fixed.

If I buy a toaster in a sale for £10 and it cuts out once every week I get it replaced under warranty.

If I buy rotten potatoes from a supermarket within the best before date I take them back and get a refund.

If I buy a computer game and it's riddled with bugs I, um, erm, what the... I can't do anything.

When I buy a product like Magic 2012 I am putting huge trust in somebody to deliver a game with limited issues and bugs.  I can't get these problems fixed myself because there isn't any means by which to do so other than declaring my frustrations on official forums such as these and I'm amazed at how this is still alllowed to happen in such a popular and ever increasing industry.

Personally the bugs and issues don't affect me that much, (even though they can be a real biatch at times) but I understand why Rob feels so passionate about this and I back him and hope something good comes from it.

Look at a company called Housemarque.  What a fantastic little company this is.  You may have heard of a game called Dead Nation.  Similar in stature to magic.  They had a beta which I participated in and it had its problems.  The community gave feedback on bugs etc.  I bought the game on release and nearly all of the problems were fixed.  Listen to this though because it's groundbreaking.  They actually listened to feedback on forums after release and implemented a lot of these into the game to make it even better and this has happened several times.  They even patched these updates into the game which you can read in a changes log.  I'd rather support companies like this who are passionate about producing a polished product but sadly depriving myself of magic makes little difference in the grand scheme of things so taking the moral highground isn't in my interests.  I'm just displaying an example of the difference between a good company and a bad one.
Thanks very much for your support Nantes, Uhmbee and Orthor

Indeed, I don't want anyone to think I am preaching. I don't think badly of anyone for buying DLC or buying whatever they want, it's totally their choice. The letter is solely my opinions, and my displeasure as a customer. I showed it on here to try and increase exposure in the hope that it will lead to some sort of action in improving the game, not to say anyone has to agree with me. It's about standing up for my consumer rights, nothing more.

That's a great story about that company Orthor, it's wonderful that they took so much time to read the feedback. That's exactly what's missing here. And as much money as Wizards are already making, I believe they could make a whole lot more if they did the same.

It's totally possible for a game, even at budget price, to be bug free. I've extensively played Yugioh on xbox live, and here's how they match up:

Number of cards: DoTP limited card pool, Yugioh 1000 cards with full deck editor
Complexity of cards: DoTP generally simple, Yugioh simple to very complex
Number of patches: DoTP 3 plus whole new game, Yugioh zero
Number of bugs: DoTP too many to count, Yugioh zero
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.


I don't agree with not buying the DLC. Seriously, what do you expect your $5.00 to buy the people that made the game? Looking at it like that is just ridiculous. Considering how many people have purchased it already, you're not hurting Wizards/Stainless by denying yourself the DLC.

If you're okay with limiting yourself to just the core game, then by all means. But don't think you're causing them any great concern by not buying it. That damage is already done at this point, the only one you're doing disservice to is yourself if you still enjoy the game.



So by your rationale,



No. By what I just said, you're not hurting Wizards by not buying the DLC if you still enjoy playing the game. You're only inhibiting your own enjoyment.

Don't try to spin what I say into some public service announcement. I said I don't agree with not buying it and gave you reasons why. I could get into why I still enjoy the game despite it's bugs but that doesn't matter to you and your soapbox so I'll not waste your time.

Next time, comprehend the words before you make a mountain out of a freakin' molehill. At least Robvalue actually read my second paragraph.
A simple "We're working on the issues" would be nice.
It sure would be. From the total absence of any support or communication, I can only conclude that they are not working on them, only on new content.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
I wish you good luck Rob.
It would be nice to see some bugs fixed, although i have to say that i would be surprised to see wizards working on the points you made in your complaint.
I was actually surprised already that they even send you a reply this early. But lets not give up hope, i guess. 

The Reply indeed sounds a bit standard. They have "passed your suggestions to the appropriate team" - why not just say "I passed your answer to the development team of stainless"!? It really sounds like they try to give you a vague and woolly answer. 

A simple "We're working on the issues" would be nice.



Unless they said that but without actually working on the issues, lol, then it wouldnt be so nice.


I fully support Rob in this issue, of course. Would hope not to see selfish "game is still fun for me whats the point of this" posts but i guess people got used to content with so little from Stainless/Wizards by this point.

Yeah, I think it's a standard fob-off response.

They clearly haven't read it properly, not even the title, as they are treating it as just suggestions whereas I am quite clearly making a complaint.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
Out of interest:

www.stainlessgames.com/careers/go/

Show
 
Careers at Stainless

Current Positions





We are only recruiting for the positions specified. Please do not apply for any other positions. However, things change rapidly in this industry so keep checking back here for updates. Want to apply for a job at Stainless? Find out how to apply at the bottom of this page.




Videogame Programmers


 

Role Overview


Development of game code as driven by the lead programmer, in collaboration with designers and artists.

Responsibilites



  • Working within an agile team, develop high quality code {ed: LOL} to agreed specifications and standards

  • Contribute to technical design

  • Work to agreed schedules

  • Contribute to task planning

  • Provide code support for artists and designers


Essential



  • Strong C++ programming experience

  • Good object oriented design skills

  • Good BSc degree or equivalent in a relevant subject

  • Previous programming experience of at least 2 years

  • Technical appreciation of current generation video game platform hardware

  • Ability to work flexibly and to tight deadlines

  • Resourceful, practical and critical thinker

  • Self-motivated and organised

  • Good communications skills in working with other programmers, designers, artists, QA and production


Desirable



  • Knowledge of the Magic: The Gathering trading card game

  • At least one published game

  • Experience in developing networked games

  • Strong understanding of 3D graphics programming

  • Good awareness of AI and physics systems

  • Familiarity of agile development methodologies

  • Experience of PS3, Xbox 360 or PC development

  • Experience of downloadable titles development

  • Lua, Python or C# programming experience


 






If you think you fit any of the criteria above, we'd like to hear from you.


Please be aware that, as a UK employer we are required by law to ensure that potential employees are legally entitled to work here. We will ask you to bring documentary evidence such as a passport with you to your interview, so we can check your work permit situation and your eligibility to work in the UK.




We offer a competitive salary and benefits package, with potential for relocation assistance. All interview expenses will be covered.




All interested candidates should send their CV (or queries) by email to: jobs@stainlessgames.com




We are only recruiting for the positions specified. Please do not apply for any other positions. However, things change rapidly in this industry so keep checking back here for updates!




Please visit our contact page for all other queries.

 

Maybe you could fix the problem from the inside Rob? 

Robvalue: Copy target bug or glitch. You may choose a new card for the copy...

Will never buy games made by Arena Net again.

Will not buy Duel 2015 until 2HG reinstated.

 

Grei wrote:

Orc_Welfin wrote:
 I've removed content from this thread. 


Nice to know removing content is a company wide policy.
Out of interest:

www.stainlessgames.com/careers/go/

Show
 
Careers at Stainless

Current Positions





We are only recruiting for the positions specified. Please do not apply for any other positions. However, things change rapidly in this industry so keep checking back here for updates. Want to apply for a job at Stainless? Find out how to apply at the bottom of this page.




Videogame Programmers


 

Role Overview


Development of game code as driven by the lead programmer, in collaboration with designers and artists.

Responsibilites



  • Working within an agile team, develop high quality code {ed: LOL} to agreed specifications and standards

  • Contribute to technical design

  • Work to agreed schedules

  • Contribute to task planning

  • Provide code support for artists and designers


Essential



  • Strong C++ programming experience

  • Good object oriented design skills

  • Good BSc degree or equivalent in a relevant subject

  • Previous programming experience of at least 2 years

  • Technical appreciation of current generation video game platform hardware

  • Ability to work flexibly and to tight deadlines

  • Resourceful, practical and critical thinker

  • Self-motivated and organised

  • Good communications skills in working with other programmers, designers, artists, QA and production


Desirable



  • Knowledge of the Magic: The Gathering trading card game

  • At least one published game

  • Experience in developing networked games

  • Strong understanding of 3D graphics programming

  • Good awareness of AI and physics systems

  • Familiarity of agile development methodologies

  • Experience of PS3, Xbox 360 or PC development

  • Experience of downloadable titles development

  • Lua, Python or C# programming experience


 






If you think you fit any of the criteria above, we'd like to hear from you.


Please be aware that, as a UK employer we are required by law to ensure that potential employees are legally entitled to work here. We will ask you to bring documentary evidence such as a passport with you to your interview, so we can check your work permit situation and your eligibility to work in the UK.




We offer a competitive salary and benefits package, with potential for relocation assistance. All interview expenses will be covered.




All interested candidates should send their CV (or queries) by email to:  jobs@stainlessgames.com




We are only recruiting for the positions specified. Please do not apply for any other positions. However, things change rapidly in this industry so keep checking back here for updates!




Please visit our contact page for all other queries.

 

Maybe you could fix the problem from the inside Rob? 



I'd probably get an interview as I hit a lot of the Essentials, but I'd hate to take a pay cut and move to the IOW.  Maybe I'll fancy a career change in the future (and it's practically all sea-side!).  Did anyone point the Twitter guys at this thread?  They tend to like us giving them a heads up if there are issues.
That's very kind of you Laden, and thanks for pointing that out

I did once dream of being involved in creating games. Sadly I'm currently not well enough to work, and I don't have any experience of being involved with any published games. I'm sure that if they showed me the code for all the cards, I could figure out why a lot of them weren't working properly and suggest corrected code. I've offered my help to Stainless and Wizards as much as I can, Stainless have been good enough to acknowledge my bug reports for D12 as they did with D9 and I hope that they will get back to me if I can help them.

Maybe I should message them again and see if they can tell us anything about the progress of bug fixing, since Wizards are being so uncooperative.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.

"develop high quality code"

This is why i don't believe in job descriptions.

Yes, like ALL games it has it's bugs. Sounds like to me you are spendning more time testing for bugs and diling complaints then playing the game it's self. You complaint will get filed into a black hole, I am sure. 



Did you ever think that maybe he would have more time to play the game if there weren't oh I don't know, hundreds of bugs? 

He's doing something for the community that's above and beyond, and to undermine that is just pathetic.

Good job Rob, much respect.

Thank you Jaddens, most kind

I've had a word with my contact at Stainless, and no promises but he's gonna see what he can do about the situation.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
Thank you Jaddens, most kind

I've had a word with my contact at Stainless, and no promises but he's gonna see what he can do about the situation.


For what it's worth, that's 1 step further than most get, and 2 steps further than the overwhelming majority even attempt.
Hehe, thanks. I think communication has broken down badly somewhere, especially with the community, and I'm hoping to jump-start it.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
Mhh I wonder where Microbless is - he doesn't post here anymore? Maybe he could help with the situation. WotC_Trevor would be helpful of course, too.

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)