4th Edition Reviews.

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Okay so do any of you remember when 4th just came out? All the haters, and people saying its just like WoW? Well guys it been approximately 4 years! Has anyones opinion changed? I think WotC has done a terrific job. With all the new books options and especially the Essentials line (though I may not use them they are great for beginners). I personally thought it was judged to quickly. Most 3.X players thought they had it all figured out, and AD&D players don't even bother messing with it (trust me they are devoted to their game). But basically I just wanted to know how you guys think it going. So, how do you think 4th Edition is doing? Smile

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

Oh, probably most of the people here LIKE 4e, though the people that have complaints are certainly vocal. Most of the people that 'just wanted to keep playing 3.5' (regardless of their opinions of 4e) are either still playing it or playing Pathfinder. Depending on who's flying saucer you fancy 4e is either a total miserable failure and 5e will be on the shelves next week, or it is a great game, but WotC is incompetent and can't make what they particularly want for it (nevermind they managed to write the game in the first place). The general atmosphere seems to be rampant complaining about details of 4e that according to each poster's POV are broken, bad, misguided, poorly written, etc. Generally the atmosphere is rather negative.

OTOH plenty of us have been having great fun with it, and while I too can nitpick, I think it is safe to say it strikes me as fundamentally the best version of the game so far.

So, the haters have mostly gotten tired and gone away. But they're still lurking out there beyond the firelight somewhere like wolves, happy to move in and crow about this or that PF sales figures or to tell us how this or that staff change, new product, canceled product, etc is actually the death knell of 4e with great glee and relish. OTOH the level of the dialog has improved in some sense. I haven't heard anyone call 4e an MMO in at least a week!

As for how it is really doing? You mean like is it a popular game? Heck if I know. Game companies don't release sales numbers. Encounters is still going, LFR is still going, they're still putting out books (more slowly than 2 years ago). It seems like I have people that play in my game regularly. Dunno if there are tons of people playing it right now or not. I figure the "oohhh, new game" has worn off now, so probably some people have moved on. OTOH there are several people every week posting here that are just starting, so you can pretty much draw whatever conclusion you like.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Crystal ball says, thread is not gonna be a fun one.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think I actually have a reverse opinion of it.
When 4e came out I liked it. It was cool, everything looked interesting, and I was very happy with how they had revamped everything.
Then I played it.
It didn't go so well. We tried a couple times over the past couple years, and it's never really stuck for my group. If you're curious, it was the length of combat. I've heard from others that they find it long, and we tried a couple things to speed it up, but it just didn't work. I've got no resentment for 4e for that.
Now, a few years later, my opinion isn't AS high as it used to be. I've noticed pieces where 4e is particularly lacking, and I've found that it REALLY doesn't fit our playstyle.

Despite this, I admit that what 4e does well, it does REALLY well. While its balance balances on a needle's edge, it's STILL balanced even with constant updates, which is an artful thing to keep. As a tactical game, I've found that it's the best in the business, even more so than other dedicated members of the genre, even more than an array of strategy video games or even wargames like Warhammer.

So how is 4e doing? Well, it's not what *I* want it to be. But what *it* wants to be is, well, it's damn good at it. I've noticed that it's slowed down somewhat, both in physical products and DDI stuff. I have also noticed that the considerations being presented in the recent columns have generally brought up concepts that DO move in the direction I like, so I'm still looking at D&D with hope, despite having moved to other RPGs.

Basically, despite how much I spout about 4e doing things the wrong way, I recognize that 4e certainly has its strengths. Thought it was worth saying that somewhere since I say anti-4e things often enough.
We converted our PCs from third and we are really enjoying the game.  The group dynamic is great fun but it did take the players a while to get to grips with the roles because in previous editions, everybody's focus was on damage dealing.  I love the split with ritual casting, although I'd prefer class-based riders to make certain classes better at certain rituals.  I love the healing surge mechanic.  Building monsters and NPCs is so much easier than in 3e.  The game is fairly easy to add minor houserules to tweak the characters, Mordenkainen's Emporium is finally doing magic items the way I always wanted them, and themes are providing the final icing on character concepts.

The maths issues are still a slight pain (I never really had a major issue with a more restricted range of ACs in earlier editions and I was never a fan of all the ability boosting items in 3e) but there seem to be simple houserules to patch relatively effectively.  Encounter length can be a bit of an issue but I'm learning to cope with that manually through experience.  

Overall, the game is just about where I want it to be with the major exception of the character builder, character visualiser, and gaming table.  
When I first read the PHB it sounded boring and bland. Then I played under a horrible Dungeon Master and it sucked.

Then I decided to take over the game, read the DMG, and omgwtfbbq our DM was doing it wrong and I'd show our group how to do it right.

Since then, everyone's been in love with the game. It's awesome. 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Was a large fan at the release...played for the first 18 months, well ran for 18 months, I have never actually played the system as a player...moved on, mostly due to my dislike of WotC/Hasbro corporate decisions...still like the system...we just play other systems (most noticibly The Dresden Files is a suystem we are gonna start in the very near future)...though one player inthe group who started with 4e is gonna run a short game to see how her DMing meshes with the group and if it all goes well she will start a longer campaign, can't wait to play...I won't buy anything else for 4e, that ship has sailed but I iwll use what I have (PHB 1-3, MP 1&2, AP, DP, PrP, AV 1&2) and it is more than enough.
Yes, when 4E was released I read the PHB and was extremely underwhelmed. It felt more like I was back in college reading a biology textbook. Informative? Yes. Fun to read? Oh Hell no. Not in the slightest. The DMG, however, was quite possibly one of the best DMGs printed to date. It wasn't just copy/pasted material from the PHB with explanations on how to use that material against the players. It actually told you how to run the game, and gave great advice to help you do so. So...off to the races we went.

By the time 6 months had passed from 4E's release, I had two weekly home games and 2 FLGS games going at the same time. I was having a blast, as were the players. There were a few issues I had with the system, but that's to be expected. I had issues with every D&D system back to BECMI and 1E. I enjoyed it so much that I did the one thing I swore in the late '90s I would never do again: I re-joined the RPGA. I attended events. I became a D&D 4E Herald. I surrounded myself with 4E, and embraced it lovingly.

Well, time passes, as they say. The flaws (few as they were) of 4E began to gnaw at me more and more. I found myself enjoying the games less and less. It started feeling more like work than a fun past-time. I cut the number of games I ran down dramatically. By this time I only had 1 FLGS game and 1 home game going. I let my DDI subscription run out (and that's a decision I have not regretted yet). I quit buying any- and everything released for 4E just on the general principle that it was 4E. I started seeing what the new books actually added to the game before dropping the money for them. That's when i found that they were adding less and less each time.

It looked to me as though WotC started dipping back into their old bag of tricks, releasing material just for the sake of releasing it, not necessarily because the game benefits from it. That's when Essentials came out. I neither loved nor hated the Essentials options. They were simply that: more options. Not outstanding, but not bad.

As of right now, I still run my 1 FLGS 4E game, but my home game has gone back to AD&D (by request of the players, all of whom started with AD&D). I just started a play-by-post game that is Essentials-only (I want to see these babies in play and find out what all the fuss is about from both sides). As for the book releases becoming slower and slower...that's not really a surprise. Once you release a core product, your sales will boom for a time. Your supplement products will never sell as well as your core product. Unless you want to put out a book every month just to flood the market, then you have to pull back on your releases. That's just common sense, financially speaking.

As to how I feel about 4E now, 3+ years into its release? It's a great game. It does what it does very, very well. It might not do what I want it to do all the time, but that's okay. No edition of D&D has done everything I wanted it to do all of the time. I suspect no edition ever will. My perfect edition would marry the tactical/power-based aspects of 4E with the more free-form AD&D, but that's a very tall order, and I don't expect to ever see that as a finished product, nor do I think it would be very well received by the general public. So...I houserule here and there, and make whatever edition I'm playing suit my tastes. Easy.
The fact that this thread has not become a nerd-rage flame fest is either a miracle, or a sign of the apocolypse... next up biblical plaques:  locust swarmsTongue out.

I was a little worried when I heard about 4e, I had invested a lot of time and money playing 3.5 (the only addition I've played) and did not particularly like the prospect of starting all over from square one.  When I finally got my hands on the books, it seemed like a huge change from 3.5 to me, but I gave it a shot and have been having a great time playing it.

Just as a small note, I haven't really had a chance to play any of the Essential characters since they are not allowed in most games that I play in.  I personally allow their use in games I DM, so I'm not a hater.  
I'm a very free form player and DM. I started with the old red box as a kid and got in to AD&D in college when the RA my sophmore year was in group and invited me to join. We ended up going in to a hybrid of 1E/2E eventually as that stuff came out and I'd continued to run/play a variation since then.

When 3E came along I wasn't currently in a group, had relatively recently relocated to a new city & state but I bought the PHB right away. I was turned off by all the minutia of not only character creation, but skill trees and the RP rules bloat fromn the onset. I later tried the game with a couple of different groups, I also played some 3.5 in a couple of groups with people I really like but I never enjoyed the edition itself. Heck, spellcasters were even more dominant than in 1E/2E. And the half-x templates? Yuck!

And I HATED the artwork.

A lot! Armor spikes that would impale the wearer? Anime hugeswords? Outfits Blech!

And the prep time. I want to PLAY the game not build monsters and characters for a week then pre-battle buff. Lets get on with it. I want tactical play.

Then 4E was announced. Th epreview stuff was not catching my attention. Then I picked up the PHB, DMG and MM. I started to read the PHB. What was this, a chemistry textbook converted to gaming? I liked the guts of what I saw but boy was it presented in a dry and uninspiring way. But look, there's tactical play and just a base skill set, no flippin' skill trees and that garbage. Most of the basic classes and races were there. Healing surges are just weird but there's more ways to heal/trigger them than someone having to play a Cleric. That Warlord looks pretty cool. The half-dragons and half-demons are now in the PHB as regular races but oh well. It's time to crack open the DMG.......

Okay, this is looking promising. I have to try this game out, it seems like it could get me back in to a current edition of D&D. The Forgotten Realms stuff is out and Genasi are in it. They're the thing I liked from 3E. My friend is starting a game and I'm on board to give it a go.

Hey, I'm a ranger, look at all my hit points! I'm a Genasi! What's with the fish? Weird mystery scenario to solve? Well, some things are definitely the same. Hey, there's evil lizardmen,er, folk. I fly as I charge in to combat! I, erm, I miss twice and get pummeled. I'm down. Wait, what? 24 HP was a third-level fighter and I have 'em at first! Maybe that was an oddity. CLERIC! Surge plus HP from range 5? Okay, that was sweet. Here we go, I'm up, swing twice, miss twice, I'm hit again and I'm down again. Crap! CLERIC! Okay, I'm up again, this healing surge thing is pretty slick. I like the way it works. It's a great mechanic. This game plays very well. I really like it.

And I've never looked back.

(I've looked around Essentials as much as possible though)
I had my 3e books (except for the Eberron books) sold two days before 4e hit the shelves.

Fighters that can contribute?  Spellcasters nerfed?  Yes please.
Clerics that don't have to spend standard actions healing?  YES please.
You don't even need a cleric, other classes can heal?  YES PLEASE.
Wait ... you don't even NEED a healer?  GIMME.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I played a lot of basic D&D (I had all the boxes), very little 1E, and a lot of 2nd and 3.5.  4E is my favorite edition by far.  PCs are overall simple to build (first you do A, then B, then C), but if you want you can go into real depth with them to build a huge range of PCs with many interesting choices.  DMing is also much simpler and less work from what I have seen and 4E is the only edition I would be willing to DM at this point.  I like that almost all classes are useful, all roles are useful, there is a wide variety of builds within most classes, and most of all that it is so team and tactics oriented. 

My only real complaints with 4E: Epic isn't hard enough, not that I ever get to play epic much.  They barely support some classes and races, while supporting others way too much.  They take forever to fix obvious big problems with classes and other mechanics.   Sometimes they don't bother to fix problems that could be fixed easily with one or two sentences of errata or in a dragon article.
So, how do you think 4th Edition is doing? 


Not a scientific survey, but I notice that the 4e PHB Amazon reviews are set in the extreme, with 72 5-star, and 93 1-star.  Then you have 35 2-star and 34 four-star, and only 17 three-star.  So people eithe rlvoe it (4e fans) or hate it (3e fans)

The Rules Compendium, on the other hand, has 20 five-star reviews and onle 1 1-star and 1 2-star review (both of them Essentials detractors), and a handful of three- and four-star reviews.

I think that is evidence, though not proof, that the edition war fervor has died down in the general populace, even if it still flares up in these parts ocassioanlly.
The fact that this thread has not become a nerd-rage flame fest is either a miracle, or a sign of the apocolypse 



I know right. I was thinking by now there would be atleast 7 pages!

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

I've played a minimal amount of original Red Box, some AD&D, and quite a bit of 2nd Ed, 3E and 3.5E, as well as a few other RPG's, most notably Mage.  I prefer 4E to all of them.  That was true when we were messing around with fan-reconstructed versions of 4E (off GenCon material) before its release, and is still true today.

Of course, the game has flaws, but I find them less bothersome than the flaws that all of those other games had.

t~
I had my 3e books (except for the Eberron books) sold two days before 4e hit the shelves.

Fighters that can contribute?  Spellcasters nerfed?  Yes please.
Clerics that don't have to spend standard actions healing?  YES please.
You don't even need a cleric, other classes can heal?  YES PLEASE.
Wait ... you don't even NEED a healer?  GIMME.



This is a good thing in my books. But, IMO I think thats what turned a lot of people off.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

I had my 3e books (except for the Eberron books) sold two days before 4e hit the shelves.

Fighters that can contribute?  Spellcasters nerfed?  Yes please.
Clerics that don't have to spend standard actions healing?  YES please.
You don't even need a cleric, other classes can heal?  YES PLEASE.
Wait ... you don't even NEED a healer?  GIMME.


^

Also, "Defenders? What are those good sir, tell me more.
...
*GLEE*"

Though at first it seemed like all the classes were the same, but unlike 90% of people holding that opinion, I actually PLAYED THE GAME, and was quickly relieved of that misconception (perhaps harshly even given that I tried to play my warlord like, well, a lord of war :33).

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
So, how do you think 4th Edition is doing? 


Not a scientific survey, but I notice that the 4e PHB Amazon reviews are set in the extreme, with 72 5-star, and 93 1-star.  Then you have 35 2-star and 34 four-star, and only 17 three-star.  So people eithe rlvoe it (4e fans) or hate it (3e fans)

The Rules Compendium, on the other hand, has 20 five-star reviews and onle 1 1-star and 1 2-star review (both of them Essentials detractors), and a handful of three- and four-star reviews.

I think that is evidence, though not proof, that the edition war fervor has died down in the general populace, even if it still flares up in these parts ocassioanlly.


 
I personally like the Rules Compendium, that is actually the only Essentials product I use. But that does make sense with the ratings and reviews. I think a lot of the fanboys have given up because WotC hasn't said "Forget it were doing more 3.X Edition stuff!" 

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 



Though at first it seemed like all the classes were the same, but unlike 90% of people holding that opinion, I actually PLAYED THE GAME, and was quickly relieved of that misconception (perhaps harshly even given that I tried to play my warlord like, well, a lord of war :33).



Even if it had been the case, I would consider that a good thing because it meant once you figured out how to play one class, you had the basics of playing them all.  Compare the mental workload and time taken moving from 'FULL ATTACK LOL' to 'sorting through a thousand spells and picking the thirty you're using today'.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

Not a scientific survey, but I notice that the 4e PHB Amazon reviews are set in the extreme, with 72 5-star, and 93 1-star.  Then you have 35 2-star and 34 four-star, and only 17 three-star.  So people eithe rlvoe it (4e fans) or hate it (3e fans)


I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules (Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)

I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules (Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)


The world will never now.  (I share your curiosity)

I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules (Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)


The world will never now.  (I share your curiosity)


If you want a laught you gan read the reviews and make a guess as to how many are did not try the game, or gave it a fiar trial. 
The game itself is great and I love it. There are tweaks I would make of course but that's everyone. I like options, I like that 4e and Essentials has 2 feels that work together. I like that there are fortune cards even though I avoid them, because some of my friends like them alot. I love themes and can't wait for it to be expanded even more. I think the game is great and the best game I've ever played socially.
I've had a lot of fun running it too. I'm not sure 4e will ever hit the popularity of 1e in its heyday, or maybe even of 3.x in its, but it is one high quality game overall.

I really encourage people to hammer on it too. You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing. Surely if you give a PC some 500 DPR attack it is going to make things wonky, but only to a limited extent. There's a lot of territory in there between 'playing stock right out of the book', and 'this game doesn't work anymore'.

I gave a whole party artifacts, and not really super wimpy ones either. Did anything bad happen? No. They took on some moderately harder challenges than without them, but I'd say nothing absurd. They had some great fun with that, ran through it, gave the artifacts back, got some cool treasure, and went on their way.
That is not dead which may eternal lie

I really encourage people to hammer on it too. You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing. Surely if you give a PC some 500 DPR attack it is going to make things wonky, but only to a limited extent. There's a lot of territory in there between 'playing stock right out of the book', and 'this game doesn't work anymore'.





This is one of the things that I love.  You don't have to min/max to be effective.  You can play around with goofy character concepts.  And it is *almost* hard to build a completely broken character (as long as you don't dump your primary stat).  I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.


Thd

 I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.



This is a very good point. While 4E does have a learning curve, I really don't think it is as high as previous editions (aside from OD&D, maybe). In 2E, for example, so many classes used so many different rules that it took some time to gain system mastery. Some played the entire 11 year life of 2E and would still not claim to have "system mastery". New players took a while to get into the groove of their character's full range of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/attacks per round/THAC0 advancement/Saving Throws and so on. When you decided to try a different character, you had an entirely new set of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/etc. to learn.

With 4E, once you get the hang of the AEDU structure, the rest falls into place quite easily. Everyone has the same skills. Everyone levels at the same time. With the Exception of a few classes, everyone uses a similar progression of power advancement. Once you understand it, that's it. Essentials threw a little wrench into this, but its really not a big deal in the slightest. I do believe the complete noob can contribute faster and in a more secure way with 4E than in previous E's.
I really loved 3.5. I'm an optomizer and I love making really strong characters. The issue was I kept having to tone stuff down because I'd be a one man party. I don't need to do that anymore in 4e. I can build my really strong character but it's still just one character in the group and normally only maybe worth 1.5-2 characters instead of being able to replace the whole party.

With how fast characters are to build now it's also much easier for me to get more into roleplaying. I don't really have to spend all my time trying to optomize a character I can just grab a 20, get expertise, and a superior weapon and go to town. So I can concentrate more on fleshing out the rest of my character and I'm having a lot more fun overall.

I know I've got players in my group who've been playing since 2nd ed and play a ton of other rpg's and 4e is their favorite out of all of them so far. It's tactical and there is a great ease of play factor that just makes it easier to have fun. I also don't get the comments I've heard in the past that it doesn't support roleplay. I think we've done more roleplay and cool characters now than at any point in previous editions. My DM especially loves the essentials slayer because of how basic it is you can really just go to town flavoring it any way you can imagine and it works. You couldn't really do that with a lot previous editions because of how much their rules forced certain things on you.

tldr: 4e gets 4 stars from me and my group.
 I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.



This is a very good point. While 4E does have a learning curve, I really don't think it is as high as previous editions (aside from OD&D, maybe). In 2E, for example, so many classes used so many different rules that it took some time to gain system mastery. Some played the entire 11 year life of 2E and would still not claim to have "system mastery". New players took a while to get into the groove of their character's full range of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/attacks per round/THAC0 advancement/Saving Throws and so on. When you decided to try a different character, you had an entirely new set of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/etc. to learn.

With 4E, once you get the hang of the AEDU structure, the rest falls into place quite easily. Everyone has the same skills. Everyone levels at the same time. With the Exception of a few classes, everyone uses a similar progression of power advancement. Once you understand it, that's it. Essentials threw a little wrench into this, but its really not a big deal in the slightest. I do believe the complete noob can contribute faster and in a more secure way with 4E than in previous E's.



I know what you mean. Its crazy how long it takes to fully understand 2e. Like the wizards. I love mages, but they are fairly complicated, especially with the whole learning spells, and using spellbooks thing. That took me forever!  But no character ever played even remotely the same. It is like reading a whole new book with each character. But 4th took that out and made it user friendly. You no longer have to sit and read the entire PHB again to understand your new role. This is where I think even more complaints came in. "Everyone does the same thing/damage" But I hate to break it to everone but none of its real. Its always been the same damage, its all dice rolls, with different elements and flavor text.  Just because your using a sword doesn't make it any different than hitting someone with a quarterstaff (except the dice you use) its all melee, and all happens becasue a dice roll. Though THAC0 isn't that big of a problem to me, it did throw some people off. But basically I agree with everything you said. 4th Edition made it easier for new players to pick up and play. Also nice avatar picture lol.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 


I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules



I recall seeing a "review" by some blogger who's supposed to be all good and whatnot. Jerkhole had this really annoying "sonic screwdriver" wannabe, but the crux of his hate on 4e was that...when he sat down and read the book in his FLGS (really carefully, he said!) he was like, "Huh?"

So, yeah, he was hating on it, and he didn't even play it. Just read the PHB, and as we all know, reading 4e when you're not used to it isn't exactly riviting.

(Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)



Its funny how many people think that going in with hatred and bile on their tongue is giving it a fair try....

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Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

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I really encourage people to hammer on it too. You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing. Surely if you give a PC some 500 DPR attack it is going to make things wonky, but only to a limited extent. There's a lot of territory in there between 'playing stock right out of the book', and 'this game doesn't work anymore'.





This is one of the things that I love.  You don't have to min/max to be effective.  You can play around with goofy character concepts.  And it is *almost* hard to build a completely broken character (as long as you don't dump your primary stat).  I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.


Thd




Yup, that is true.

I will go on to say that the GAME itself is pretty robust. If some player needs to do something that doesn't quite work by the letter of the rules, or if you want to do something strange like have a guy with a sword grafted on in place of his hand (happened in one of our games way back when) you can just do it. Make up something. It will work. Just take some existing thing and jigger it a little bit. Worst case you might have some player with a character that's a bit better than average. It is unlikely to break the game (and its house rules, just fix it if it does, it likely just means some minor restriction needs to be added or something). Even if it is a bit OP in a couple levels it will be just ordinary stuff.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Hi there,

I personally really like D&D 4e + Essentials  
But i have to say that there are some issues with D&D.
My players won´t play it because it doesn´t feel magic anymore.
It´s a good  tabletop game but not really suited as a rpg.
So i´m stuck with Earthdawn 3rd edition at the moment but i can see a light at the end of the tunnel:

Dungeon Crawl Classics !

I downloaded the beta rules and i have to say: i´m in love with it :D

OD&D mixed with a modern rule base and magic that feels like magic,
unpredictable outcomes :D

But there is one big difference opposed to old D&D

the warrior is the strongest class

I know i will get a lot of abuse now but a) english is not my native language and b) i like D&D 4e and we should enjoy our hobby and not fight over other rpg´s. we´re a minority anyway so keep playing what you like :D


You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing.

3.x could be 'balanced on a knife edge,' though, really, it was more balanceable.  Played straight, it didn't really balance, but it could be balanced (on that knife edge) if the DM worked at it and/or the players showed a lot of restraint.  AD&D simply wasn't balanced, at all, and probably wasn't really balanceable, as presented, either (especially the 1st ed - not that anyone played it as written).  4e did create some robust class balance by moving to a common structure of 'powers,' and it's encounter balance was much improved and simplified.  Essentials abandoned that common structure, so is balanced on that knife again (but at least not on the edge) with respect to classes - at least it's balanced played straight, rather than needing you to go looking for the balance point...

 

 

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I recently decided to check out what D&D looks like these days, after not having played since before that newfangled 2nd edition stuff was published. I bought the new red box and Heroes of Fallen Lands, which I'm nearly done reading from cover to cover (other than the adventure in the DM book of the red box, which I skipped). And I showed up to an open game at a local comics and gaming shop last Sunday to play my first session with this version.

I like a lot of the details of 4th edition, and I can nitpick some other details if I wanted to (Halflings get a constitution bonus?!?!). But my first impression so far is that the big picture got lost along the way. This isn't a role playing game - it's a miniatures combat board game. The rules seem to be ENTIRELY focused on combat. ie The hypnosis spell does damage. Clerics get a spell to create water, but nothing to create food. The wizard's flying spell only lasts for one combat turn - good enough for an attack, but not to actually go anywhere. The range on the teleportation spell is measured in squares, rather than miles - again, useful in combat, but not for actual transportation.

In my session on Sunday, we played 3 encounters, with very little other than combat going on, and it took 6 hours. And we didn't even finish any of the 3 battles - the DM decided they were taking too long and cut them all short with "You've killed more than half of them. That's good enough." I'm sure a better DM could have injected more role playing into the game, but this seemed to be pretty much what the regular players there were expecting. At one point in the 3rd encounter, I was debating if I should use my daily power or save it for later, and I was told by one of the other players that sessions are always exactly 3 encounters long, so there's no point saving the daily stuff once you reach the 3rd. Huh??? What happened to wandering around, exploring, having some small encounters between the big battles, and maybe even some non-combat stuff going on? First edition D&D and AD&D were never this predictable!

I'm hoping my bad experience last weekend was just because of the quality of the group and DM that usually meet at that store, and finding a better group will improve the experience. But in searching around for a gaming group, I went to a "meet and greet" event for one RPG group that I found through meetup.com, and all the experienced players there seem to look down on 4e. Their main complaints seemed to be that combat takes forever, and it's impossible for players to die. From what I've seen so far, I can see their point. The group leader volunteered to DM a long term campaign with 6 of us, but he insisted on making it Pathfinder, which the other players who have played recent versions all agreed was a good idea. So I bought the core rulebook for PF, and I'm kinda curious as to what that's like. I plan to finish reading Fallen Lands this weekend, then start reading the Pathfinder rules.

I'm still planning to give 4e another chance. I may even go back to the group I played with last weekend, since playing combat miniatures can be fun once in a while in its own right. But I'm hoping I can find a group for an ongoing campaign with a DM who realizes this is supposed to be a role playing game, not just a combat board game. But from what I've seen so far, I'm not overly impressed.

Carpe DM - Seize the Dungeon Master!
The digital side of D&D seems to be doing well, at least by the number of subscribers; it's a pretty big number. The digital tools have been difficult for Wizards to meet fan expectations, if not mishandled several times by them in the past.

D&D Encounters is doing well; well enough that they are now on its sixth season. When it first started Wizards only planned for a few seasons and were pleased by its success. D&D Assault lair is a sign of the D&D Encounters doing well. In fact, Forge of the Dawn Titan is rumored to be in hot demand.

The slow down in book releases and lay off of personnel is indicative that sales are down. If 4th was selling off the shelves then I couldn't imagine a decrease in book production (money is money, after all). You can believe it's because they want more quality than quantity- I don't. They could hire more staff to manage the editing and what not (you would have to be having profits for that).

4th has succeeded in dividing the fan base right in half. That was unfortunate (well, not if you are Paizo).

The hiring of Monte is good for the D&D brand but it might spell the doom of certain aspects of 4th. Monte, rightfully, can be seen as a camp opposite of Heinsoo and Collins; I can't shake the feeling that Monte dislikes 4th edition but there isn't much to quote him on.

I have no idea if Essentials is doing well. I would love to know but I there is little concrete evidence. In my area, which is anedoctal evidence in one demographic area, my favorite FLGS orders 4-6 4th edition books to about 30 Paizo books with each new release. That makes me a sad panda.

All I know is that virtually all of the designers I like are now gone from Wizards- and that makes me a very sad panda.
But my first impression so far is that the big picture got lost along the way.

Or maybe it got picked back up. 
This isn't a role playing game - it's a miniatures combat board game.

It is still an RPG, the 2 are not exclusive. 
Correct meif I am wrong, but didn't D&D start as a mini's combat game...
4E still has more role playing built into it then Basic D&D, and even AD&D 1st edition. Not one is claiming that thry were not RPG's. 
Actually thanks to hard coding in skill challanges, and all the sections  like quests and world building in the DMG 4E probably has significantly more RPG material they did.  

The rules seem to be ENTIRELY focused on combat.

They are not, but conflict does require significantly more rules work to then social encounters.
Actually the skill system covers pretty much everything you would want in most social encounters and uses verry little rules space. 
Clerics get a spell to create water, but nothing to create food.

There is an item that creates food, and ones for other consumables...
The wizard's flying spell only lasts for one combat turn - good enough for an attack, but not to actually go anywhere.

please re-read the power, Fly the level 16 wizard utility power has a sustain line, it lasts as long as the wizard is able to pay the sustain cost. Plus there is at least one other flight option that last significantly longer. 
The range on the teleportation spell is measured in squares, rather than miles - again, useful in combat, but not for actual transportation.


That is because you are looking at the combat spells, there are transportations magics that streach into miles, that have been there since day 1. 


What happened to wandering around, exploring, having some small encounters between the big battles, and maybe even some non-combat stuff going on? First edition D&D and AD&D were never this predictable!

It is called organized play, or it might have been a delve (a short 3 encounter miini-adventure). They have to remove allot of things from organized play if they want it to move smothly. There are longer adventurers out there with more things you can do between encounters, but they can not be run easily with out a regular and reliable group of players. 

I have play Adv. Dnd, 3.0, 3.5 and 4th edition save my Dnd. It's not perfect and they have done a lot of mistake.
But it's far better than Dnd 3.5.

I recently play a level 11 Hexblade. That was cool. Tel 3 square at will, making melee, ranged attack, summoning my personal devil servant.
Dnd 4 give the player the feeling of power.  I play enough old Dnd to know about the feeling of being fragile, helpless and useless.

Our group dont feel the problem of combat length. Sometime they take longer, but often cause by a lack of finishing move on monster.
But long combat or not, we are still playing Dnd. 1 or 2 or three combats in a session, who realy care?
The point is: Is the combat challenging and fun. If the answer is "yes", time dont matter.

In dnd 4 the players have complex characters with of lot of kinky tricks.
As the level get higher the DM have to be very well prepared to challenge them.
You can no more prepare a high level character on the spot, and high level monster need to be read
and prepared before they go to fight.

Dnd 4 is a far more complex game than dnd 3.5.
The pacing is good and we waste no time preparing spells and finding a place to sleep.

For me I dont see a 5th edition coming out. They will progressivly change the game.
Some old material will become useless, but they wont make another edition.

F

 
But my first impression so far is that the big picture got lost along the way.

Or maybe it got picked back up. 
This isn't a role playing game - it's a miniatures combat board game.

It is still an RPG, the 2 are not exclusive. 
Correct meif I am wrong, but didn't D&D start as a mini's combat game...
4E still has more role playing built into it then Basic D&D, and even AD&D 1st edition. Not one is claiming that thry were not RPG's. 
Actually thanks to hard coding in skill challanges, and all the sections  like quests and world building in the DMG 4E probably has significantly more RPG material they did.  

The rules seem to be ENTIRELY focused on combat.

They are not, but conflict does require significantly more rules work to then social encounters.
Actually the skill system covers pretty much everything you would want in most social encounters and uses verry little rules space. 
Clerics get a spell to create water, but nothing to create food.

There is an item that creates food, and ones for other consumables...
The wizard's flying spell only lasts for one combat turn - good enough for an attack, but not to actually go anywhere.

please re-read the power, Fly the level 16 wizard utility power has a sustain line, it lasts as long as the wizard is able to pay the sustain cost. Plus there is at least one other flight option that last significantly longer. 
The range on the teleportation spell is measured in squares, rather than miles - again, useful in combat, but not for actual transportation.


That is because you are looking at the combat spells, there are transportations magics that streach into miles, that have been there since day 1. 


What happened to wandering around, exploring, having some small encounters between the big battles, and maybe even some non-combat stuff going on? First edition D&D and AD&D were never this predictable!

It is called organized play, or it might have been a delve (a short 3 encounter miini-adventure). They have to remove allot of things from organized play if they want it to move smothly. There are longer adventurers out there with more things you can do between encounters, but they can not be run easily with out a regular and reliable group of players. 


He wouldn't know about rituals is the thing. Essentials isn't all of 4e is the problem. It lacks a LOT of options that exist in the full game. A 12th level Wizard (which is pretty much like say 9th level in 3.5 or AD&D) is able to summon flying mounts for the whole party and can summon ones that cross water at a lower level. There are numbers of flying items too. I'm pretty sure you could encounter winged sandals in heroic tier. There is also long range teleportation, scrying, etc all there.

He shouldn't be too critical of the DM doing Encounters either. Remember, this is a pre-set, basically one-shot dungeon intended to introduce new players to the mechanics of the game. It also changes every week, so there are times when there are non-combat options. The DM just runs it, like a module. If it gives him 3 combats to run, that's what he's going to be running. They gather feedback on the program, so presumably for the format of game that it is, they're providing what people want. It is definitely not supposed to replace normal gaming, and the idea is really that you'll hook up with people that play 4e and go play in a campaign somewhere.

That is not dead which may eternal lie
Just to add onto the last two posts:  Long story short its what you make it. If you make it primarily combat, then its gonna be combat oriented, if you make it role playing oriented, its gonna be a lot of role playing. The game is what you make it, and if you don't like it change it. Also yeah rituals do add quite a bit to the magical side they just aren't called spells any more.

Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community.

 

BlueGhost it sounds like you did a Delve, they're very combat oriented, an Encounters might have a little more roleplay at the beginning but is also a mechanics game, very light RP. RPGA has a bit more then both those but can be killed by people dropping in and out and lurchs between stories, you sort of jump from place to place.

You need a good sustained group. Stick with it and feel out some of the regulars for a good home game, 4e is very open to RP with the right crew. This game like all Social RPGs is very depenent on having a good group of men and women to play with. Bestof luck.
For me I dont see a 5th edition coming out. They will progressivly change the game.
Some old material will become useless, but they wont make another edition.




That is kinda what they are doing with characters in encounters, right?

Essentials plus the latest book.

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Played with the Red Box back in late 80's then AD&D, AD&D 2nd Edition, 3.X a bit and then came 4th Edition. Never looked back since because....

4E Marked me. I saw i was getting a -2 penalty to fun factor if i was playing any D&D that wasn't including 4E in it. I shall remain Marked until another Edition's Mark supercede it or until 4E drop dead. Even then i shall give it a Second Wind before she ever fail 3 Death saves so she can live forever. Wink 

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