09/21/2011 BoaB: "Flashback with a Vengeance"

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
About that pyroclasm...
Nice deck with a decent theme. Unfortunately Pyroclasm WILL NOT be Standard-legal, as of Sept. 30. Try again.

Slagstorm, maybe?
You could use some black mana sources for flashbacking the Forbidden Alchemy.

Also, I'd look into running some Delver of Secrets. He's almost guaranteed to transform fast, and a 3/2 swinging from turn two is a nice clock.
I'm not sure how expensive Snapcaster Mage will wind up being, but he'd be a nice addition to the deck as well. The cards that already have Flashback get flashed back for cheaper, and the cards without (like your burn spells and counters) get a second use.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
Hmmm.  Neurok commando may find a new home.

There's no way to produce black mana in the deck, rendering it impossible to flashback Forbidden Alchemy. Along with not realizing Pyroclasm isn't legal for Standard, it's pretty obvious that you didn't put that much effort into this, JVL.

and what's this thing about looking at FIVE cards when You write about alchemy? on top of that pyroclasm flop and no black mana - that's NOT the way you want new players to learn about deckbuilding.

EIPC FIAL dude...
It would be very difficult for Burning Vengeance to control creature based strategies when there are only a few flashback cards with a low flashback cost.  Out of those, only Think Twice is the really solid one.  You would need Snapcaster Mages and Past in Flames to be able to play sufficient flashbacked cards to have a hope of containing a creature based strategy.  Of course both of the cards I mentioned might not be considered budget so that doesn't help this column at all.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
As a replacement for Pyroclasm, how about Slagstorm? Goes for about a dollar, so it's definitely a budget rare.

As for the mana issue, you obviously need black to get full use out of Forbidden Alchemy. I'd suggest mana acceleration even aside from that, considering that flashback costs get expensive. With Zendikar block gone, you might even have to go with mana Myr... but then, they would be the only possible targets for your opponents' removal spells, and that's bad. Hmmm. In Scars of Mirrodin block and M12, the only non-creature, non-land, non-green sources of acceleration I see are Geosurge, Pristine Talisman, Sphere of the Suns and Manalith. (A few others too, technically, but those are the only remotely viable ones.) Sphere of the Suns might be worth using, but if not, this deck is in trouble.

All that being said, grow up, Brothir and/or qki. Or would you prefer "dude"? Those comments couldn't be more pointless if you tried.
You got my hopes up, JVL.  When I read Pyroclasm, I honestly thought that perhaps I was the one who had made the mistake, and that the 'Clasm was still Standard-legal.  Alas, this is not the case.

I like the idea of both Slagstorm and Nuerok Commando in this deck.  Some bonus card draw is always nice, and the Slagstorm would almost replace the Pyroclasm.

If it wasn't so darn expensive already, I would even suggest Snapcaster Mage, as it would give all our non-Flashback sorceries/instants double-duty, and with at least one active Burning Vengeance, it would also splice Shock onto them (even Shock - "A four damage Shock for one mana?  Yes, have some!").
Seriously, how is this guy still employed? Better yet, how is his editor still employed? I can write better articles sitting on the toilet taking my morning crap, and I'm hardly being hyperbolic. As people have already pointed out:
1. Pyroclasm will not be standard legal
2. No swamps to even pay for the flashback cost of Forbidden Alchemy
3. FA is 4 cards, not 5. And then you compare that to a tutor? You can't be serious.

I mean, these aren't like... little, nitpicky errors. I instantly noticed all of this after skimming the article. Do you guys not even care about presenting a quality product? Along with posting completely fabricated and error riddled match reports every week. I mean holy mother. Wizards... come on.
Here is a suggestion....Whipflare for the Pyroclasm, and maybe throw in an Alloy Myr or 2 in order to give you that black mana.  Yes Whipflare will not take out artifact creatures, but it will take out everything else for the same mana cost.
Shimmering Grotto instead of swamps?
Flashing back Forbidden Alchemy doesn't really seem that relevant in this deck. You really only need the initial cast to start getting some action from your graveyard, the strength of a deck like this will come from being able to double-up on the burn and draw spells, not milling yourself just to enable Burning Vengeance.

In fact, not splashing black to flashback Fobidden Alchemy (it costs 7 for crying out loud!) makes a version of this deck with Grim Lavamancer in it seem especially appealing.

Wow, this deck is terrible.  I'm seeing like 7 or 8 flashback cards in the whole deck.  Rather than "Devil's Play" being an alternate win condition, it's your real win condition.


Normally your work is so good; this week you seem to have dropped the ball.  Maybe it was the inability to playtest, and lack of access to the full image gallery/Gatherer like you normally have.


As for cards from the new set that go well with this card, you have (in more or less descending order):


Rolling Temblor (substitute in for Pyroclasm immediately)


Shimmering Grotto (Lets you hit the off-color flashbacks)


Geistflame (possibly for one or two Shocks -- it's not as good as Shock all the time)


Brimstone Valley


Dream Twist


Curse of the Bloody Tome


Silent Departure (probably sideboard)


Armored Skaab


Memory's Journey (if you use Shimmering Grotto to splash for black, it works for green too)


Bump in the Night (I only see this being important if you have to stretch for victory too often -- Flashback doesn't feed itself like Cycling does)


 


I'm not a major fan of Desperate Ravings, although this is definitely the deck for it if there ever was one.


Ancient Grudge (definitely a sideboard kind of card; may not make that, but it'll be good as long as Swords are running around)



How about this?  I can see arguments against including it, since the effect is fairly underwhelming for 3 mana and a precious slot in the deck, but if it gets back a game-ender like devil's play or something, it can't be too bad.

What about sideboard? If the opponent has a bunch of big/annoying creatures and/or planeswalkers, Mind Control or Volition Reins might be good.  Ancient Grudge for artifacts.  Flashfreeze would be good as well.  Silent Departure is also something I'd sideboard as mentioned above.

I personally would go Slagstorm over Rolling Temblor any day.  Too many play flying and the extra 1 damage for 1 mana isn't the worst thing in the world.

Snapcaster Mage and Past in Flames are going to be staples if you want to take this deck to the next level, though as you can see, 4 of each will run you $148 if you have no luck in pulling them yourself.
I for 1 liked this article. There were some obvious oversites (pyroclasm), but the deck is never done after these articles. They are a great starting point and this is an idea that Im glad was brought up.
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
     I did a little bit of math and I think the results are a little telling about how good this deck really is.  Because this deck has no creatures the only way for it to win is by burning the oponent out, so If every burn spell in the deck is drawn (excluding the x spell) and pointed at the oponents face it adds up to 17 damage. (26 asuming the totaly standard legal pyroclasms become slaggstorms.)  This deck also has no way to generate black mana so it has a total of 9 cards it can flash back to deal damage with burning vengeance, so asuming we are good little boys and girls and we don't flash back any of our spell untill we have a burning vengeance, they can each deal at most 18 damage.  

     The point is, this deck will never beat a control deck because unless it can resolve a Devil's play or two burning vengeance it can't realisticaly deal 20 damage to it's oponent, and this deck will never beat an agro deck because if it spends too much burn on creatures, it wont be able to deal 20 damage to it's oponent before it dies to creatures with 3 toughness, and this deck will never beat any kind of midrange deck because it can not beat more than two creatures with 3 toughness and still have enough gas to deal that oh so hard to reach 20 damage.

Wow, this deck is terrible.  I'm seeing like 7 or 8 flashback cards in the whole deck.  Rather than "Devil's Play" being an alternate win condition, it's your real win condition.


Normally your work is so good; this week you seem to have dropped the ball.  Maybe it was the inability to playtest, and lack of access to the full image gallery/Gatherer like you normally have.


As for cards from the new set that go well with this card, you have (in more or less descending order):


Rolling Temblor (substitute in for Pyroclasm immediately)


Shimmering Grotto (Lets you hit the off-color flashbacks)


Geistflame (possibly for one or two Shocks -- it's not as good as Shock all the time)


Brimstone Valley


Dream Twist


Curse of the Bloody Tome


Silent Departure (probably sideboard)


Armored Skaab


Memory's Journey (if you use Shimmering Grotto to splash for black, it works for green too)


Bump in the Night (I only see this being important if you have to stretch for victory too often -- Flashback doesn't feed itself like Cycling does)


 


I'm not a major fan of Desperate Ravings, although this is definitely the deck for it if there ever was one.


Ancient Grudge (definitely a sideboard kind of card; may not make that, but it'll be good as long as Swords are running around)



I don't think this deck would work too well with a self-milling subtheme. Sure, getting Flashback cards milled is better than getting non-Flashback cards milled, but you're STILL losing half of their functionality. So Curse of the Bloody Tome, Armored Skaab and Dream Twist should not be included.
Rolling Temblor should probably only be played over Slagstorm if you're incredibly budget-conscious like me. Geistflame is a joke: 1 damage will kill one-drops and that's about it. Flashbacking it will NEVER be worthwhile unless you have your enchantment out.
I'd rather run an instant speed, non-flashbacking bounce spell over Silent Departure. The rest of your suggestions are good, though.

Now for some you forgot. I seriously think Delver of Secrets would be great in this deck. It'll have a 50/50 chance to transform with roughly half the deck dedicated to instants and sorceries, so you'll be swinging with a 3/2 flying on turn two fairly often, and even lategame a 3/2 flying for one mana is nothing to sneeze at.
Runic Repetition (as was mentioned directly after your post) is another great include. It gets you quadruple use out of your flashback spells, rather than the standard double. It can get back a Devil's Play for a finisher, or play toolbox in a closer game.
If you're not playing the Delver, you'll probably do well to get some Neurok Commandos and Invisible Stalkers. Their shroud and hexproof respectively keep your opponent's removal spells dead, and the permanent sources of damage are a must-have for this deck: you really want to spend your burn on creatures, so you're going to be hurting to actually kill the opponent. Plus, the Commando keeps your hand stocked. Always great for a long attrition match.
Sturmgeist looks like a great finisher. When you're casting a fair portion of your stuff from your graveyard, and are running nice card draw spells like Think Twice, your hand should be fairly well stocked, so the Geist will be a decent size. And it helps you restock your hand, too.
Nightbird's Clutches is, at worst, another Flashback for your Vengeance to trigger, and at best allows your creatures to get through so your Commando can draw you cards.
Finally, Charmbreaker Devils. They're a bit pricey (mana-wise) but getting one of those to stick will win you the game. With the sheer number of instants this deck plays, it's not unlikely to swing for twenty in one go with these guys. Plus, if you can't get through the opponent's defenses, the extra card a turn is a great boon. It allows you to recycle your non-Flashback cards.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
Here is a suggestion....Whipflare for the Pyroclasm, and maybe throw in an Alloy Myr or 2 in order to give you that black mana.  Yes Whipflare will not take out artifact creatures, but it will take out everything else for the same mana cost.

Whipflare is not a suitable Pyroclasm replacement for metagame reasons : the clear best swarm aggro deck at the start of the format is Tempered Steel, against which Whipflare does almost nothing. I am pretty sure Slagstorm is the best choice for a red sweeper, especially considering that Tempered Steel itself brings most of the creatures to 3 toughness. I don't like Rolling Tremblor much; 3 mana seems too much for only 2 damage, the Flashback cost is too great to be relevant in time in most cases, and a deck like Steel does play fliers.

Whipflare and Rolling Tremblor could be OK against Werewolves, a deck that promises to be popular, but then, mostly if they are in human form. The wolf forms often have 3+ toughness, which points towards Slagstorm once again.

UR Flashback control probably has potential, especially non-budget with Snapcaster Mage, but I'm not sure it has what it takes with only one set out in the block... Nevertheless, I like Jacob exploring the idea, despite the mistakes in the article.

Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
Sign In to post comments