Ok now ban tarmogoyf and dark confidant in Modern please...

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Hello,


 


I saw that you like banning a lot of cards this year..


 


You ban every decks affordable and now we can't even play your new wonderfull format because tarmogoyf and dark confidant are too good not to play and too expensive.


 


By the way, know that all of theses bannings costed me a lot of money.


 


Thank you wizard making me sad panda with no money to compete in your new formats, and now even reluctant to invest on your new set.


 


I supose you're trying your best but let me tell you that I think you're screwing hard with your game.


 


Ban tarmogoyf and dark confidant is the right thing to do now.

Are you really complaining about the cost of cards and asking for a banning. Go away, youre wasting your time. Both Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant are the best respective two drops of all time in their colours. They're worth the money.
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NO MUDKIPZ UR AN IDIOT. BAN BOB, HE SCARES ME DESPITE NOT SEEING ANY PLAY IN PT PHILLY!

Also, the goyf banning arguments just keep getting sadder. IT'S A VANILLA BEATER. If your deck can't handle a vanilla beater, you have more than just budget problems.

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some people just will not be happy untill squire is the best 2 drop in every format...
Squire IS the best 2 drop in the format!

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

Zoo is not the only deck in the format. I'm fairly certain Affinity, Twin, Melira, Merfolk, UW control, and Martyr are pretty much Goyf and Bob free.
Fish has and does splash for goyf...just sayin lol
In Legacy, it doesnt splash at all, and if it does, usually Black.
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I'm whining because I haven't figured out how to run aggro hate like threads of disloyalty and smother





QFT
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
While the OP is a frothing retard for buying cards at peak price, I do wish they'd ban 'goyf and Bob.
Goyf I could see, but depending on how the future sets shape up (really it's going to be a while if at all.) But Bob? No thankyou, Bob is a pretty fair card no matter how you try to slice it, because he's just half a Sign in Blood during upkeeps, but he's good enough to pull the Zoo deck's need to draw into threats. Plus, without Shoal, Ritual, Ponder, Preordain or GSZ in the format, we might be looking at a heavy slow-down until either Ponder or Preordain get their ban lifted. 
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Goyf I could see, but depending on how the future sets shape up (really it's going to be a while if at all.) But Bob? No thankyou, Bob is a pretty fair card no matter how you try to slice it, because he's just half a Sign in Blood during upkeeps, but he's good enough to pull the Zoo deck's need to draw into threats. Plus, without Shoal, Ritual, Ponder, Preordain or GSZ in the format, we might be looking at a heavy slow-down until either Ponder or Preordain get their ban lifted. 



yup, CA on a stick (much like SFM) is so much fairer than good beats.

Read: Tarmogoyf is never getting banned and stands a great chance at reprinting
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
Goyf I could see, but depending on how the future sets shape up (really it's going to be a while if at all.) But Bob? No thankyou, Bob is a pretty fair card no matter how you try to slice it, because he's just half a Sign in Blood during upkeeps, but he's good enough to pull the Zoo deck's need to draw into threats. Plus, without Shoal, Ritual, Ponder, Preordain or GSZ in the format, we might be looking at a heavy slow-down until either Ponder or Preordain get their ban lifted. 



yup, CA on a stick (much like SFM) is so much fairer than good beats.

Read: Tarmogoyf is never getting banned and stands a great chance at reprinting



Easy now xD CA isn't the only factor in winning games. The whole issue is what you pay versus what you get, but I'd rather Tarm get reprinted and have several rivaling scalers than be a one-of-a-kind as it has been. But Bob is by no means comparable to SFM, because he has a constant payment scheme, doesn't allow specific choices, and doesn't cheat equipment in for massively less than they may cost.

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And SFM didn't become so powerful until it was allowed to cheat in 4/4 Vigilant Lifelinkers that can protect themselves.  Bob is a CA machine, with a drawback that can be built around, but he has to be used properly whereas SFM can just win games by including a single copy of Batterskull in your deck with some swords.
bob isn't CA if you remove him before the next upkeep.  Also, he's got a pretty hefty drawback.  I've killed people with their own bobs before.



They're probably misplaying Bob. You really want around an average of 1-3 CMC to avoid the hits. In addition, the fact that he has legs allows for his removal.
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bob isn't CA if you remove him before the next upkeep.  Also, he's got a pretty hefty drawback.  I've killed people with their own bobs before.



They're probably misplaying Bob. You really want around an average of 1-3 CMC to avoid the hits. In addition, the fact that he has legs allows for his removal.



ROFL I guess it's a misplay to run tombstalkers with bob then. The point is that there are some situations in which Bob lands on turn 1-2 and you don't anticipate hitting every damn 3-drop in your deck for the next 4 turns. It happens, but no one doubts wehter or not Bob is worth it.

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Banning is never a good answer. It just encourages more banning.
------------------------------------------------------------- Decks that I play Legacy- Ravager Affinity Modern- Standard- RWU Flicker EDH/Commander -RWU Numot
Sorry, I was probably unclear, I didn't mean that Bob will/should get banned. I was saying that a non-evasive beater stands no chance at being banned. I just used Bob to show that he's closer to what an aggro deck would lose :P

Honestly, if WotC wants to nerf Zoo, I'd expect them to take out Reliquary, since it's a tutor and beatstick. Again though, I doubt this will happen.
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
Sorry, I was probably unclear, I didn't mean that Bob will/should get banned. I was saying that a non-evasive beater stands no chance at being banned. I just used Bob to show that he's closer to what an aggro deck would lose :P


Honestly, if WotC wants to nerf Zoo, I'd expect them to take out Reliquary, since it's a tutor and beatstick. Again though, I doubt this will happen.



I agree with the last statement. The reason Zoo is a "fair" deck in spite of Tarmogoyf not having enough competition is because the deck is headlined by a powerful, but just really cool card which gets the job done (Knight of the Reliquary). Hopefully Zoo will wind up being the benchmark of the format, since a Zoo format is much easier to play "my cards" against than one ruled by belchers. 


I didn't mean to get anybody riled up by saying there is the possibility of Goyf being too good, I simply meant that if low cost easily scaling beaters don't become more accessible, it will become unhealthy. Perhaps the levelers were an exercise in this? But from the looks of it, Innistrad is trying to make Goyf-like "I get stronger" beaters for cheap a common thing for decks which produce green mana. In such a scenario, even if reprinted, Goyf has competition, so even if it remains "the best", it is easily replacable and answered (as green decks are expected to carry scaling powerhouses in the future, perhaps just making Goyf-like cards a sign of the times for the changing color philosophy?)


Edit: Then again, simply putting Terravore into a future set can further solidify that (as mentioned by a few folks in another thread). I think this would be a pretty nice addition to Modern's creature pool



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Honestly, if WotC wants to nerf Zoo, I'd expect them to take out Reliquary, since it's a tutor and beatstick.

KotR is great, but I really don't think that any one banning would knock Zoo out of it position.  Zoo is amazing because it runs all of the best cheap beaters, and the loss of any one will do little.  I really don't think Zoo can be banned away without banning multiple creatures or multiple lands (forest shocks), and both of those are terrible ideas.  No, the best way is to either unban MM (won't happen), or print a near counterspell quality control spell in any color.  Of course that last option would really hurt Standard.

When did Zoo become a problem? I mean, seriously, how did we start talking about banning parts of Zoo? That's ridiculous. The deck is soooo fair it's not even funny.

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There are already several cards that shouldn't have been banned in the first place, and now you are suggesting we ban more? Seriously people, grow up and stop asking for cards to be banned whenever a deck that uses them beats you. Banning cards is a fundamentally bad thing, and should be avoided at all costs. Wizards has already been too trigger-happy with banning cards, and suggesting more nonsense isn't going to help the problem. Stop complaining, and start trying to find answers to threats rather than crying. The card pool is huge. The solutions are there.

For all the complaining you do now, you would find Magic really boring if the best 2-drop actually was Squire.
Goyf I could see, but depending on how the future sets shape up (really it's going to be a while if at all.) But Bob? No thankyou, Bob is a pretty fair card no matter how you try to slice it, because he's just half a Sign in Blood during upkeeps, but he's good enough to pull the Zoo deck's need to draw into threats. Plus, without Shoal, Ritual, Ponder, Preordain or GSZ in the format, we might be looking at a heavy slow-down until either Ponder or Preordain get their ban lifted. 



yup, CA on a stick (much like SFM) is so much fairer than good beats.

Read: Tarmogoyf is never getting banned and stands a great chance at reprinting



Reprinting Goys would be AMAZING. He'd spike to $120 or so, then drop down a bit with everything else in the set being rather cheap due to the fact that every dealer and collector would double their normal case order. Fistfights would errupt over rare redraft draft games. Well, maybe no the second thing, but the first?

Hell, lets get a set with FoW, Bob, Goyf and... maybe some fetches? Bamn, instant accessibility of the older formats. Maybe mix in Wasteland, Sinkhole and Mind twist to go with it. You'd need a bit more to keep aggro ballanced, but it'd be glorious, if hellaciously messy. People would cry, cards would seesaw in value, people wouldn't know what to do with themselves when they finally rotated out.


There are already several cards that shouldn't have been banned in the first place, and now you are suggesting we ban more? Seriously people, grow up and stop asking for cards to be banned whenever a deck that uses them beats you. Banning cards is a fundamentally bad thing, and should be avoided at all costs. Wizards has already been too trigger-happy with banning cards, and suggesting more nonsense isn't going to help the problem. Stop complaining, and start trying to find answers to threats rather than crying. The card pool is huge. The solutions are there.

For all the complaining you do now, you would find Magic really boring if the best 2-drop actually was Squire.




Well, I wouldn't. I *like* control duels. They're, like fighting. With your brain. It's even less fun to watch than Chess, but to play! Oh, to play them!
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.

Well, I wouldn't. I *like* control duels. They're, like fighting. With your brain. It's even less fun to watch than Chess, but to play! Oh, to play them!

Control/Control matchups have been the best and most thoughtful and exhausting games of Magic I have ever played.  Watching them is even more fun, especially with a friend you can chat with.  Guessing at their strategy, and looking for the optimal play is great fun.  The matches really come down to skill, forcasting, and patience and when done well that is a blast to watch.  They are miles more entertaining than play creature X, turn Creature X sideways,play Creature Y, turn creature Y sideways...repeat.

While I support the reprinting of Goyf, I am not deluded enought to think that they would drop in price until they rotate out of Standard.


Well, I wouldn't. I *like* control duels. They're, like fighting. With your brain. It's even less fun to watch than Chess, but to play! Oh, to play them!

Control/Control matchups have been the best and most thoughtful and exhausting games of Magic I have ever played.  Watching them is even more fun, especially with a friend you can chat with.  Guessing at their strategy, and looking for the optimal play is great fun.  The matches really come down to skill, forcasting, and patience and when done well that is a blast to watch.  They are miles more entertaining than play creature X, turn Creature X sideways,play Creature Y, turn creature Y sideways...repeat.

While I support the reprinting of Goyf, I am not deluded enought to think that they would drop in price until they rotate out of Standard.




Well, most people seem to hate watching them, and I'll bow to that opinion if only for the purposes of lip service. As someone who learned (well, re-learned) to play magic after a long vacation from reading Oscar's articles on The Deck, natch, I can get into it.

Counter-control mirrors are the only magic games that will reliably bring me to a sweat while playing magic, and/or cause serious problems for me if I've forgotten to eat that day.


But yeah, it'd drop after it rotated. I guess I wasn't clearn enough on that front. Depending on how well this whole "Modern" thing takes, it'd probably not even see *that* much of a drop after it rotated. Standard would definatelly jump the price.

I'd actually love, love, love, to see them try to ballance FoW, Goyf, BoB and a fetch or it's ilk against the need for aggro to keep it honest. Not that that'd ever happen, but in all honesty I suspect they'd need to give straight up Sligh (not RDW, but, like full force 20/20/20 goodness) some treats. Plus it'd probably need to be banned as hard as mistep was for modern. Le Sigh.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
Counter-control mirrors are the only magic games that will reliably bring me to a sweat while playing magic, and/or cause serious problems for me if I've forgotten to eat that day.

Yea, it's a great feeling when you finish a seriously contested control mirror match and you look up and realize that you have no idea how much time has gone by, and what is going on around you.  Your brain is fried, but it still playing the game even though it has ended.  Win or loose you feel like you gave the game everything you could.  That is real Magic.

Counter-control mirrors are the only magic games that will reliably bring me to a sweat while playing magic, and/or cause serious problems for me if I've forgotten to eat that day.

Yea, it's a great feeling when you finish a seriously contested control mirror match and you look up and realize that you have no idea how much time has gone by, and what is going on around you.  Your brain is fried, but it still playing the game even though it has ended.  Win or loose you feel like you gave the game everything you could.  That is real Magic.




Yes! Yes!

Also, that's the Magic that I fell in love with reading "You CAN play Type 1" articles. One misplay should just end things. It turns every step of every phase of every turn into a Rosewater puzzle.
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
Yes! Yes!

Also, that's the Magic that I fell in love with reading "You CAN play Type 1" articles. One misplay should just end things. It turns every step of every phase of every turn into a Rosewater puzzle.


Sadly far too many of my games end (or are lengthened) by my play mistakes.  I get distracted easily and it tends to draw my focus away, so I miss a trigger or forget to play an instant at the right time.  I still like trying, though, and I figure one day I might improve.

Hell, lets get a set with FoW, Bob, Goyf and... maybe some fetches? Bamn, instant accessibility of the older formats. Maybe mix in Wasteland, Sinkhole and Mind twist to go with it. You'd need a bit more to keep aggro ballanced, but it'd be glorious, if hellaciously messy. People would cry, cards would seesaw in value, people wouldn't know what to do with themselves when they finally rotated out.


There are already several cards that shouldn't have been banned in the first place, and now you are suggesting we ban more? Seriously people, grow up and stop asking for cards to be banned whenever a deck that uses them beats you. Banning cards is a fundamentally bad thing, and should be avoided at all costs. Wizards has already been too trigger-happy with banning cards, and suggesting more nonsense isn't going to help the problem. Stop complaining, and start trying to find answers to threats rather than crying. The card pool is huge. The solutions are there.

For all the complaining you do now, you would find Magic really boring if the best 2-drop actually was Squire.




Well, I wouldn't. I *like* control duels. They're, like fighting. With your brain. It's even less fun to watch than Chess, but to play! Oh, to play them!



I love control mirrors as well. Most of those cards I linked to are for control decks. I left out some other cards that I'd really love to see back because I knew people would react immaturely to them. I agree with all the stuff Cyklown and DrWorm have said about control mirrors. You have no idea how long you've been playing and your brain is fried, but it's all great fun.

And on the subject of unbanning Ponder and/or Preordain: Legacy is great fun because you're basically playing with all the best cards from Magic's history, save for a few HUGE mistakes (seriously, what the hell were they thinking?); but playing with Brainstorm is actually the biggest appeal of Legacy for me. BY FAR. Modern got a lot less fun with the new ban list (and that's saying something, given infect combo and 12 Post in the format), because Serum Visions just isn't doing it for me.

It's just way more fun to play when you actually have some measure of control over what cards you draw; Serum Visions just isn't doing it for me. My fondest memories of playing Legacy are turns where I cast Brainstorm, crack a fetch, cast Ponder, Brainstorm off Jace, crack another fetch, cast Brainstorm, cast Ponder.

So I'm hoping to get back at least one functional cantrip soon.

Sadly far too many of my games end (or are lengthened) by my play mistakes.  I get distracted easily and it tends to draw my focus away, so I miss a trigger or forget to play an instant at the right time.  I still like trying, though, and I figure one day I might improve.



Well, sure. I'm not half the player I'd like to be... which is why I keep pushing my friends to get better. If they'd just leapfrog over me the way I keep expecting them to, I'd be in a position to learn a lot faster. I mean, if we're going to play magic fairly frequently anyways, the least they could do is humble me so hard that I have to improve noticably or else ragequit, right?

That's what I want magic to be, honestly. I'm a Spike... but the joy comes from trying as hard as I can and knowing it's up to me to win.




I love control mirrors as well. Most of those cards I linked to are for control decks. I left out some other cards that I'd really love to see back because I knew people would react immaturely to them. I agree with all the stuff Cyklown and DrWorm have said about control mirrors. You have no idea how long you've been playing and your brain is fried, but it's all great fun.

It's just way more fun to play when you actually have some measure of control over what cards you draw; Serum Visions just isn't doing it for me. My fondest memories of playing Legacy are turns where I cast Brainstorm, crack a fetch, cast Ponder, Brainstorm off Jace, crack another fetch, cast Brainstorm, cast Ponder.

So I'm hoping to get back at least one functional cantrip soon.



I can see what they mean about too much reliability ruining stuff. Between the time it takes to shuffle (card savers. each player averages a shuffle a turn, DOOM!) and aggro's advantage in terms of reliability (y'know, what with there being no wrong threats, unlike answers, etc.), but I agree. For that matter, I'd rather have Bstorm over ponder. It fits better with draw-go, fights discard, makes you more reactive.

As far as unbannings go... yeah, Fae is the one I want to see. I'm down to one Bitterblossom (I forgot I'd dumped them right before Lorwyn rotated, but thank goodness I did), but it was... well, the perfect fish archetype. Aside from that one Portal drake we don't really get anything quite like the "touch ground once"  draw-go. I'd love to see laboratory-vision powered Fae competing with the best power-free decks of all time. That'd be my primary impetus to play legacy directly. Granted, once I was in blue and black I'd probably find myself trying to assemble Stiflenaught and Ichorid since I'd have some of the manabase of one and the other one just seems so nice to have as a dark horse (since, y'know, it seems to win every tournament where "hate" isn't the word of the day), but... yeah. Dayum.

Plus, like, there's my Jittes and all that. So many old rares found in bargain-rate booster box's on ebay, drafted with some friends once (y'know, when I was convincing them all to play magic again. There's something about various drafting formats and limited that just reminds people of that "back in the day" feel) and then tradestocked never to see play... until modern showed up... 
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
We'd all rather have Brainstorm than Ponder. But really, Preordain really needs to be unbanned. It's significantly less powerful than either Ponder or Brainstorm, which is why it's not restricted in Type I and why in Legacy it's always 3rd choice (I only run in it ANT and High Tide, when I really need twelve cantrips). Plus it doesn't involve shuffling, if games taking too long is an issue. And the most important point: the format is more fun when it's around.

Yeah, I'm really missing fish decks.
I really don't think Goyf, Bob or Shocklands need to be banned. But, for the health of the format, I DO think they are in dire need of a reprint. They are all perfectly fair, just strong enough cards that, due to their scarcity (and in the case of Bob and Goyf, demand across formats) have a ridiculously high price tag. And there -is- a marked difference in decks with or without them. The strong perception is that you either play them, or don't play modern. Just this weekend, my LGS was holding a Modern Tournament, and I was the only one who showed up. Most of hte people I know who would play Modern don't because they can't afford, or indeed even find, Bob, Goyf, or Shocklands. The same reasons they don't play Legacy.

The cards I do think could do with being looked at are: Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl and Punishing Fire. The reason for all them is pretty simple: right now, there is no reason, from a competitive standpoint, to play any aggro deck in modern that isn't Zoo. It's too much better, too efficient. You can make a synergistic cool aggro deck, but Zoo is just more reliable. Sure, you COULD try to play Boros, but Punishing Fire/Grove of the BUrnwillows makes that dead in the Water.

Loam Lion, Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl are the problem. It wouldn't make sense to just ban one and not the other two, so I think they should all go. They weren't a problem in their respective original printings, because, with the exception of Kird Ape, they never had Shocklands to play alongside (and I remember back when Kird Ape was the best creature in standard, when Zoo and Gruul dominated because of being the only deck whose early drops didn't die to Shock). But now, they make the perfect storm of efficient beaters. 4 Nacatls and any combination of 4-6 Apes/Lions gives you a consistent 1 drop that can't be traded with unless your opponent is also playing Zoo. So, sure, I could try Boros, but I'll inevitable have creautres just slightly weaker than Zoo, so I might as well play Zoo.

Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows is the other half of the reason nothing is better than Zoo. Because of the X/3 creatures of Zoo, they are relatively safe from this engine, because it takes 2 fires to kill one of their creatures. But Boros, Elves, Merfolk, etc. all rely on early drops with 1 or 2 toughness, and few creatures with higher, so this engine shuts it down. Now, Grove is an interesting and fun card in a vacuum, and there are lots of fun things you can do with it in decks with things like Kavu Predator and Tamanoa, while Punishing Fire is just another burn spell with a recursion effect that had unintended consequences. So I think Punishing Fire should be banned.

I really do believe that banning the check weenies (Ape, Lion, Nacatl) and Punishing Fire would open up the field and let other aggro decks be on par with Zoo. Hell, opening things up might drop the price of some of the above mentioned cards (though probably not).

I also think a few cards need unbanning, as they were banned in anticipation of a slower format that modern really isn't shaping up to be, and would not be nearly as opporessive as they were anticipated to be (Jace, Ancestal Visions, etc.). 
Ashinto, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are literally advocating the banning of vanilla creatures because they are too efficient? If we really need to go that far in Magic, then the game is broken beyond repair. I really can't emphasize enough that you are talking about banning VANILLA CREATURES.

You want reality? Here's some quick predictions.

1. There will be a successful control deck in Modern by the time the Modern PTQ season rolls around. Why? Because I've already seen incarnations of the list on Cockatrice, and it's essentially a Modern snapcaster control shell.

2. PLENTY of decks can poop all over Zoo. Kavu Justice, Splintertwin, Jund, and Big Naya all have great matchups against zoo.

3. Zoo's status as a deck-to-beat is shaky. It takes very little to nudge Zoo's win percentages from 50%+ to 50%-.

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Ashinto, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are literally advocating the banning of vanilla creatures because they are too efficient? If we really need to go that far in Magic, then the game is broken beyond repair. I really can't emphasize enough that you are talking about banning VANILLA CREATURES.

You want reality? Here's some quick predictions.

1. There will be a successful control deck in Modern by the time the Modern PTQ season rolls around. Why? Because I've already seen incarnations of the list on Cockatrice, and it's essentially a Modern snapcaster control shell.

2. PLENTY of decks can poop all over Zoo. Kavu Justice, Splintertwin, Jund, and Big Naya all have great matchups against zoo.

3. Zoo's status as a deck-to-beat is shaky. It takes very little to nudge Zoo's win percentages from 50%+ to 50%-.

Surprisingly I find myself agreeing with you.  I test on MTGO daily, trying to get in at least 4-5 matches a day, and I have not been seeing Zoo, Twin, or Affinity much at all.  What I do see are several blue based control builds that use Snapcaster Mage (I knew the community was crazy for not giving this card it's props) to counter everything you cast then ping you to death with Snappy, Fae, and to a smaller extent Manlands.  It is a VERY difficult matchup, for me at least, especially since I have been building with an aggro meta in mind.  My guess, at this point, is that a Snappy Fae deck will be the top control (BUG, or even UBR) deck and that it will start to put control on the map.  I will not admit to Control being truely viable until I see the matches or results of a large tournament, but I am anticipating that I will have to admit it soon

That does not mean that I support the ban-list.  I still disagree with GSZ, and still feel that the list is bloated with cards that do not belong there- heck, I would not even use some of the cards on the list if they were unbanned, but I think that a ban-list needs to be as lean as possible.

Ashinto, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are literally advocating the banning of vanilla creatures because they are too efficient? If we really need to go that far in Magic, then the game is broken beyond repair. I really can't emphasize enough that you are talking about banning VANILLA CREATURES.

You want reality? Here's some quick predictions.

1. There will be a successful control deck in Modern by the time the Modern PTQ season rolls around. Why? Because I've already seen incarnations of the list on Cockatrice, and it's essentially a Modern snapcaster control shell.

2. PLENTY of decks can poop all over Zoo. Kavu Justice, Splintertwin, Jund, and Big Naya all have great matchups against zoo.

3. Zoo's status as a deck-to-beat is shaky. It takes very little to nudge Zoo's win percentages from 50%+ to 50%-.



Ah the internet, where civility and manners take a vacation and anonymity breeds douchebaggery...

They're not vanilla creatures. See that non-italicized text? That's called an ability. Incidentally, it is that ability to have 3 toughness on an aggressive 1 drop that invalidates any other aggro deck that could be built. The only way to get that 3 toughness is play Mountains, Forests and PLains. ie.: to play Zoo. 

Tarmogoyf is splashable, but Nacatl, Lion and Ape are NOT. That is the problem. If I want to make Boros, it takes about 5 minutes to realize that the best way for me to make the deck competitive is to play Zoo instead. Best way to improve a Bant deck? Add Mountains for Bolt, Nacatl and Helix. Oh wait, that's Zoo.

That's why I advocate the banning of these creatures. They do invalidate every other aggro deck in the format. If you can't see that, I'm sorry, but don't be an ass and accuse people of having no idea what they are talking about, especially when they spell it out for you line by line.  It's crass, rude, and doesn't make you cool.
Ashinto, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are literally advocating the banning of vanilla creatures because they are too efficient? If we really need to go that far in Magic, then the game is broken beyond repair. I really can't emphasize enough that you are talking about banning VANILLA CREATURES.

You want reality? Here's some quick predictions.

1. There will be a successful control deck in Modern by the time the Modern PTQ season rolls around. Why? Because I've already seen incarnations of the list on Cockatrice, and it's essentially a Modern snapcaster control shell.

2. PLENTY of decks can poop all over Zoo. Kavu Justice, Splintertwin, Jund, and Big Naya all have great matchups against zoo.

3. Zoo's status as a deck-to-beat is shaky. It takes very little to nudge Zoo's win percentages from 50%+ to 50%-.



Ah the internet, where civility and manners take a vacation and anonymity breeds douchebaggery...

They're not vanilla creatures. See that non-italicized text? That's called an ability. Incidentally, it is that ability to have 3 toughness on an aggressive 1 drop that invalidates any other aggro deck that could be built. The only way to get that 3 toughness is play Mountains, Forests and PLains. ie.: to play Zoo. 

Tarmogoyf is splashable, but Nacatl, Lion and Ape are NOT. That is the problem. If I want to make Boros, it takes about 5 minutes to realize that the best way for me to make the deck competitive is to play Zoo instead. Best way to improve a Bant deck? Add Mountains for Bolt, Nacatl and Helix. Oh wait, that's Zoo.

That's why I advocate the banning of these creatures. They do invalidate every other aggro deck in the format. If you can't see that, I'm sorry, but don't be an ass and accuse people of having no idea what they are talking about, especially when they spell it out for you line by line.  It's crass, rude, and doesn't make you cool.




You CAN'T ban the "best" aggro deck when the best aggro deck is struggling to keep up with more controlling decks. It's not just the Zoo-Vs-Other-Aggro matchup that obsoletes bad aggro. You get some awesome board control options in Modern. You think a deck that doesn't have a t1, t2 play that forces the other player to wrath is going to get you anywhere? Good lord. Zoo is going to be the best aggro if you're looking to pure aggro. Any format with good dual lands has three options. Weeny related aggro decks that are actually red-zone based combo decks win (gobbies, generally. See also: the days of clamp-bidding gobbos), super-curve decks that aim to get the game over with, like, yesterday with a stupid amount of reliability and the deliberate tactic of moving the principle turn of the game forward(nine land stompy, sligh) or zoo. You get those three. That's it. All other aggro can't be pure aggro and win with any decent cardpool. That's the pie. If the mana base supports it, the three colors that do aggresive "best" will win at pure aggro. In a world where you can support three colors reliably (albiet painfully) then cutting a color simply cuts your ability to keep up. Expecting anything else is why the squire jokes are out there.

The stronger aggro is at it's theoretical "what it can do", the more control has to be warry of it (ie, it prevents control from getting sloppy) and the more diversity in the cardpool with reguards to combo is out there.


Additionally, you don't entirely seem to understand vanilla as it gets used. It doesn't mean "nothing but flavor text". It means "it's just a beater. It beats".
76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
@Ashinto - You have no idea what Vanilla means in reference to creatures. You're also complaining that aggro doesn't have enough variety in the format, which is clearly false. Want to know what doesn't have enough options? Control and Ramp. Control right now is forced into gifts/snapcaster/removal. The only variety that exists in that shell is whether you're running the academy ruins win-conditions or the teferi win-conditions. Ramp is just way out of luck. The only archetype with real options right now is combo. You have living end, splintertwin, melira, breach/goryo's vengeance, storm/belcher/swath, time sieve, and an EXTREMELY JANKY (but fun) reanimator build.

The bottom line is that your argument holds no water. RDW exists and is more than viable. Zoo exists. Doran Zoo exists. Just because you can't play boros doesn't mean your point is valid.

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@Ashinto - You have no idea what Vanilla means in reference to creatures. You're also complaining that aggro doesn't have enough variety in the format, which is clearly false. Want to know what doesn't have enough options? Control and Ramp. Control right now is forced into gifts/snapcaster/removal. The only variety that exists in that shell is whether you're running the academy ruins win-conditions or the teferi win-conditions. Ramp is just way out of luck. The only archetype with real options right now is combo. You have living end, splintertwin, melira, breach/goryo's vengeance, storm/belcher/swath, time sieve, and an EXTREMELY JANKY (but fun) reanimator build.

The bottom line is that your argument holds no water. RDW exists and is more than viable. Zoo exists. Doran Zoo exists. Just because you can't play boros doesn't mean your point is valid.



So... you're saying that Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Wild Nacatl are NOT the only non-defender creatures with 3 toughness for 1 mana? Because that is the only way my argument wouldn't "hold water" as you say, since that is my contention. But please, if you can demonstrate how I'm wrong, do sir, do.

How exactly is RDW viable? What magical red cards are they conjuring that allows them to compete with Zoo's better creatures and burn suite (thanks Lightning Helix)? And the second part of "Doran Zoo" demonstrates how much you thought about what you were typing as you were typing it.

As far as Vanilla, I use the term the way the developers use it: to refer to creatures with no abilties. If it doesn't benefit from Muraganda Petroglyphs, then it's not vanilla, whatever modified defnition you folks have adopted around here. 


So... you're saying that Kird Ape, Loam Lion and Wild Nacatl are NOT the only non-defender creatures with 3 toughness for 1 mana? Because that is the only way my argument wouldn't "hold water" as you say, since that is my contention. But please, if you can demonstrate how I'm wrong, do sir, do.


Yes, Green, White and Red have the best 1-drops. This isn't new. I'm not really sure why you're so obsesed with toughness, however.


How exactly is RDW viable? What magical red cards are they conjuring that allows them to compete with Zoo's better creatures and burn suite (thanks Lightning Helix)? And the second part of "Doran Zoo" demonstrates how much you thought about what you were typing as you were typing it.


Because it's still running 1 mana 2 power creatures, it's mono-red and it doesn't waste time with other crap. We'll need to start getting results before we can say for sure, but sligh is a survivor, even if we *are* in a format without wastelands. Sligh doesn't always do the best, but it always endures and always has resurgents. Hell, does anyone remember Oscar Tan complaining about Sligh decks ruining an otherwise easy to account for metagame when tuning the deck?

As far as Vanilla, I use the term the way the developers use it: to refer to creatures with no abilties. If it doesn't benefit from Muraganda Petroglyphs, then it's not vanilla, whatever modified defnition you folks have adopted around here. 


That's wonderful. The rest of the world considers vanila creatures to be just creatures with a power and toughness. Goyf has been called a vanilla beater since... the day it showed up, back before it was recognized as good. Back when the "dies to removal" vs "yeah, but it's only 2 mana" debate was raging the rest of us recognized that creatures without abilities are vanilla. Are kobolds not vanilla?

76783093 wrote:
Luckily, we have stop-having-fun guys to remind us that having anything more than 60 cards in your deck is tantamount to being a rapist and anyone considering it should be strung up by their ****.
First of all, I'm not obsessed. This is a forum thread about the modern banlist. So I expressed my opinion regarding it. UNfortunately, members of this forum seem to be incapable of replying to an opinion without turning it into a personal attack, sadly.

Here is the big difference between the three check creatures and Goyf, and why Ape, Lion and Nacatl hurt the format and Goyf doesn't:

- I can add a few G producing lands and Tarmogoyf to any deck
- To make use of any of the others, I have to play Mountains, Plains AND Forests, and in good enough numbers to make sure they are consistant. The result of this is that every aggro list that performs efficeintly is going to look the same, because they will be limited to the same colour scheme.

By all means, play RDW. But you will lose to Zoo. You will play your 2/2 for R and they will be stopped cold by Zoo's 2/3s and 3/3s, which can attack gleefully into your creatures without fear. Are you going to waste burn on them? All the better for the Zoo player, who already has enough of an edge against you from the life gain from Helix, let alone you wasting your few burn spells on his creatures. It's not a matter of Red, Green and White having the best one drops, that's okay when they're stand alone. It's a matter of having to play all three together to play aggro. THAT is the problem. If it were a world of Goblin Guides, Isamarus, Figures of Destiny, Steppe Lynxes, then that would be a varied environment. You could have two equally performing aggro decks with radically different lists. Right now, however, that is simply not the case, and no amount of unbanning Control cards will change that. I'm not saying there aren't some control cards that SHOULD be unbanned (I fully believe that unbanning Jace and Ancestral Visions at the very least would only help the format, and Bitterblossom is probably safe in a world with so many easy and efficient ways to deal with it), but I firmly believe that aggro will be stale and boring until at least one (preferrably all three) of these format-warping creatures are banned.

And personal definitions of what "vanilla" means are pretty pointless here.  Whatever anyone means when they say "vanilla" doesn't change the effect those three have on the game. 
First of all, I'm not obsessed. This is a forum thread about the modern banlist. So I expressed my opinion regarding it. UNfortunately, members of this forum seem to be incapable of replying to an opinion without turning it into a personal attack, sadly.



Banning vanilla creatures is totally unnecessary, and it would be an outrage if even remotely considered.

I just told you that I don't agree with your point at all. But that doesn't mean that I'm personally attacking you. "I disagree" is not a personal attack.

This issue comes up on every discussion about banning/unbanning cards: there always has to be a best of something. Accept it. You often see arguments like "Goyf is the biggest 2-Drop creature ever, he needs to be banned because he's too efficient."

Now, if Goyf were banned, the next-biggest 2-Drop would take over as being the biggest. Then you have people saying that that creature should be banned. If Wizards listened to these people each time, you know what you'd eventaully end up hearing?

"Man, Grizzly Bears is so unfair! 2 power for 2 mana?! Like,...WTF?"

Now, do you really want that to be the state of Magic?


There always has to be the best of something. Zoo is the best aggro deck? Ban something to cripple Zoo! Now RDW is the best? Ban something to cripple RDW! Now Zoo is good again? Ban something else!

Where do you draw the line? There's no reason for there to be 10 page long banlists, which is where thinking like yours would get us.


If vanilla creatures are banned, then Magic truly is broken beyond repair. Or wait, maybe it isn't. Maybe, just maybe, if you even thought of vanilla creatures being banned, then we should unban other cards instead. As long as power levels end up balanced, why can't we power-up control instead of nerfing aggro? As long as power levels are balanced, and the format is stable, the absolute power scale isn't as important.



Plus, Zoo is not "the best" deck. It is beatable, and easily, but you have to build your decks smart.

In last year's Standard, expecting a field full of Valakut decks, why would you not play Tectonic Edge?

If you expect Twin-Combo, then you make sure to pack instant-speed removal

Aggro? Now that's easy. Just stock up on Wrath of God. Kitchen Finks can also be helpful. And Blood Moon is stupidly good against a deck that runs almost no basic lands (obviously).

Just try building your deck to the metagame before you say that cards should be banned.


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