Regarding the updated banlist to modern

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Seen here.  www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

Hahahahahahahahaha!
Why do I imagine that I hear Islands screaming on ponder and preordain being banned?

And wasent post kinda a gimme considering no deck in magic should have that much available mana turn 4?

The other stuff I can understand its just odd on that preemptive rites ban
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89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Figured Ponder and Preordain would be banned.

Welp, done with that format now. 
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How sad, I was about to get into the format too!

I am not a competative modern player so I may not be accurate here but didn't the banned list just take out like two thirds of the top eight decks with all of six cards? Not that I'm necessarily against it as it seemed some ppl in a youtube video I saw yesterday were describing just how crappy it is to be infected to death turn two. I wonder if they will have to do this again when modern 2.0 comes up with other ways to achieve turn two kills without cards from the banned list?

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4 [GP] Godless Shrine   
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats   
8 [ZEN] Plains (1)   
4 [EVE] Fetid Heath   
2 [M10] Gargoyle Castle
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1 [MBS] Black Sun's Zenith   
1 [M11] Liliana Vess
// SideboardSB:
2 [M10] SilenceSB:
3 [PLC] ExtirpateSB:
3 [SOK] Pithing NeedleSB:
2 [GP] Leyline of the VoidSB:
1 [ZEN] Sorin MarkovSB:
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize




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And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
How sad, I was about to get into the format too!



Wait, so you are going to scratch the entire format over six cards? Surely there are more ways to create a deck.
I have no money, but already own most of the cards to make a budget pyromancer deck, I'm sure ill do stuff with the forbidden program, but that doesn't quite count.
So... exactly how long are they going to keep just banning cards and decks? It's like all stick and no carrots...
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Without GSZ, the deck I have been working on since July, that actually had a good matchup with Zoo, and decent with Post and Twin, is dead.  There is no way for me to smooth out bad draws fast enough to get a reliable t4 win.  I ran ONE Dryad Arbor as a back up if I get screwed.  The card was really to grab needed combo pieces, and now there is no way.  Chord of Calling is too slow, Shaman is too fragile, and Pod needs to be built around.  If I had wanted to play a Pod deck, I would have played a Pod deck.  Now I think I will just leave the format.  Wizards has proven twice now that they want to make this format all about turning creatures sideways, and has no interest in a genuinely balanced and varried format.  If that is the case, then I will leave before I waste more money and time.
Next on the chopping block: Lightning Bolt. 1 mana, 3 damage, instant? And you can have FOUR of them???? WAY TOO EFFING POWERFUL FOR THIS FORMAT BRO!!!

-___-

Now that I'm done laughing, on a serious note... Modern is going through some growing pains atm. Legacy is ALL THE CARDS EVER and they had to make a lot of changes to the ban list, and still do on a regular basis. Modern is a more current version of Legacy. This is normal.

I really think a restricted list would benefit the Modern format. You ban Ponder & Preordain because it digs through decks too quickly and find certain combo pieces. ...Why not restrict those cards, or those combo parts, that you're so afraid of running wild?

The reason they CLAIM they hate banning cards is because when a player buys a product, they buy it with the expectation that they'll be able to play with it. Well hell, so much for that. Mental Misstep has existed for... How long? Banned in everything by the end of the year, pretty much. It's standard-legal, probably gone by July 2012. Green Sun's Zenith, gone in this new format. Ponder, Preordain, recent CORE SET cards... Gone from Modern.

I know only Vintage has a restricted list, but for this "Legacy Lite", I think one is appropriate.

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Without GSZ, the deck I have been working on since July, that actually had a good matchup with Zoo, and decent with Post and Twin, is dead.  There is no way for me to smooth out bad draws fast enough to get a reliable t4 win.  I ran ONE Dryad Arbor as a back up if I get screwed.  The card was really to grab needed combo pieces, and now there is no way.  Chord of Calling is too slow, Shaman is too fragile, and Pod needs to be built around.  If I had wanted to play a Pod deck, I would have played a Pod deck.  Now I think I will just leave the format.  Wizards has proven twice now that they want to make this format all about turning creatures sideways, and has no interest in a genuinely balanced and varried format.  If that is the case, then I will leave before I waste more money and time.



Ignorance at it's best. Banning those 6 cards opened up control for the format, as well as midrange. With martyr.dec suddenly becoming viable, you have a safety valve on zoo getting out of control. Splintertwin is still intact, it just lost card filtering. People have already stuck the twin package into other decks, so it's not impossible to imagine people fusing splintertwin with a backup gameplan (it's already been done with living end and pyro ascension).

Let's also mention the fact that LD just became a solid gameplan for just about every matchup save Zoo. Kavu Justice and Grixis LD control are both archetype hosers, though kavu justice is going to lose a bit of sideboard slots with the loss of GSZ.

All of the bannings are fine, IMO. The only issue I have is the fact that ancestral vision and/or jace TMS stayed banned. Clearly, they still want control to fight hard for a solid swiss record, and I think it's the right approach, if not a little overcautious.

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Control's problem, as I understand it from the much smarter players on these hyar boards, was keeping a solid matchup against zoo, pyro, 12-post and twin. Also, that these combo decks could be behind for a while then topdeck a win. With the banning of filter and also quite a few combo pieces that let the decks either win on the spot or win in turns one or two, control might be able to survive off the card advantage cards still in the format, like mulldrifter, gifts ungiven or thirst.
Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
Ignorance at it's best. Banning those 6 cards opened up control for the format, as well as midrange. With martyr.dec suddenly becoming viable, you have a safety valve on zoo getting out of control. Splintertwin is still intact, it just lost card filtering. People have already stuck the twin package into other decks, so it's not impossible to imagine people fusing splintertwin with a backup gameplan (it's already been done with living end and pyro ascension).

Let's also mention the fact that LD just became a solid gameplan for just about every matchup save Zoo. Kavu Justice and Grixis LD control are both archetype hosers, though kavu justice is going to lose a bit of sideboard slots with the loss of GSZ.

All of the bannings are fine, IMO. The only issue I have is the fact that ancestral vision and/or jace TMS stayed banned. Clearly, they still want control to fight hard for a solid swiss record, and I think it's the right approach, if not a little overcautious.

I will believe it when I see it.  Okay, Razorgore the insulting hath said it, and it shall be true.  In the comming months we will see the tryumphant rise of Martyr.dec, and LD as major players.  Prepare your SB accordingly!

What is the format now?
Swathstorm
Dragonstorm
Pyromancer's Ascension
12 Post
Infect
Splinter Twin [its pretty much now a U/R Control list with Twin as the win con]
Zoo [Now top dog.]
Affinity-Red [Yep.]

Meta got shook up hard.

What were getting:
Dedicated Control now stands a chance [U/W - U/B]
Aggro-Control [Merfolk, primarily]

WotC is slowly crafting the format to escape from the T4 Death Zone.
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Very good move, GSZ is a little odd, but I guess they don't want zoo being the best aggro deck and control deck by tutoring up hate bears.

Rite of flame, blazing shoal and Cloudpost were all obvious, almost everyone we spoke to at PT agreed that these were the three cards that needed to be hit. Ponder and Preordain is a very interesting way of changing the format, helping to keep combo decks under wraps and leaving the card selection tools to Legacy.

I'm pretty pleased with the changes considering this is a format that I only play in competitive tournaments.(PTQ, PT, GP)
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well clearly, this is a stupid format now.... they just ban everything.

they banned freakin' preordain and ponder!!! 

they banned green sun's zenith.... thats just plain LULUZZ!!11!1one!

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Very good move, GSZ is a little odd, but I guess they don't want zoo being the best aggro deck and control deck by tutoring up hate bears.

Yea, because no other deck used it as a critical tool for tutoring anything.  Zoo is already the fastest and most popular deck in the format, cutting GSZ hurt hurt other decks more than it hurt Zoo.  The problem is Zoo is imposible to ban away.  Some say Goyf, but in the countless times I have faced it Nacatl and Knight are the creatures that do the most damage.

I'm not sure why we lost Green Sun's Zenith but I'm actually pretty happy about Cloudpost getting the ban hammer. I sold off my playset of Vesuva and Primeval Titan a few days ago, so I actually made a good choice.

It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the format pans out now. With Cloudpost dead control stands a chance and we lost storm and infect. I think Splinter Twin will take over as the new boogieman of the format with Zoo being the other really solid contender. I'm not very impressed with Affinity at the moment.
I'm not sure why we lost Green Sun's Zenith but I'm actually pretty happy about Cloudpost getting the ban hammer. I sold off my playset of Vesuva and Primeval Titan a few days ago, so I actually made a good choice.

It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the format pans out now. With Cloudpost dead control stands a chance and we lost storm and infect. I think Splinter Twin will take over as the new boogieman of the format with Zoo being the other really solid contender. I'm not very impressed with Affinity at the moment.



GSZ essentially let you run 8 copies of KOTR/pridemage, or 5 copies of teeg/thrun. Not necessarily gamebreaking, but it's not at all a stretch to consider a GSZ-toolbox deck being the top dog in light of the other bannings.


I will believe it when I see it.  Okay, Razorgore the insulting hath said it, and it shall be true.  In the comming months we will see the tryumphant rise of Martyr.dec, and LD as major players.  Prepare your SB accordingly!



And now the ignorant resort to ad hominem attacks in the face of logic...

@BF - card filtering still exists in modern; they just put a mana premium on consistency for most combo lists.

Some things that people haven't really discussed yet but are worth mentioning -

Chalice of the void just got a lot more powerful, as did simian spirit guide.

Seismic Loam theoretically becomes viable, though I don't know if Naya, RUG, or 4-color is the way to go yet.

Snapcaster Mage is getting a boost. With the slower format, there's going to be greater options in a given graveyard for flashing back.

Banning ponder and preordain sends a pretty powerful message to the playerbase though - Don't expect either spell to see a reprint in standard anytime soon. Mental mistep was a failed approach to dealing with blue card filtering (R&D's own words), and I don't think they want to inject MORE 1cmc card filter options into any given format until they solve that riddle. Personally, I think they need to add a madblind mountain effect to some more permanents, with the ability to target your opponent.

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I'll stick to casual, the best format of all.
In your opinion will Living End be banned?
What is the format now?
Swathstorm
Dragonstorm
Pyromancer's Ascension
12 Post
Infect
Splinter Twin [its pretty much now a U/R Control list with Twin as the win con]
Zoo [Now top dog.]
Affinity-Red [Yep.]

Meta got shook up hard.

What were getting:
Dedicated Control now stands a chance [U/W - U/B]
Aggro-Control [Merfolk, primarily]

WotC is slowly crafting the format to escape from the T4 Death Zone.

Damn. I'm killing my opponents at turn 4 with my Melira Project deck. This means Birthing Pod is the next to get the ban hammer? :[
GSZ is a mistake. That card made a lot of decks more viable. Banning it will have exactly the opposite effect of what was intended.

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Ok I staunchly defended the first ban list. This, this is another level. I can't justify baning ANY of these cards.


Blazing Shoal: Why? It wasn't even that good. It was the most all in deck with a bad wining percentage.

Cloudpost: It made a control deck viable as well as some interesting midrange decks. It actually created diversity despite being annoying.

Green Sun's Zenith: No idea on this one. I can't fathom why they decided this was bannable.

Ponder: Seriously, mediocre draw is bannable in modern?

Preordain: See above.

Rite of Flame: Umm why not something y'know that was a better combo enabler? Might as well ban seething song, desperate ritual, or the real culprit LOTUS BLOOM. Still NONE of these are remotely bannable.

Sorry wotc, you had me aaaand you lost me. You really need to figure out what direction you want modern to go other than ban anything that might have a chance of being remotely good.

What makes me laugh the most is that none of these cards are as good as dark confidant yet he remains in the format after two large banings. Also wotc, since you hate combo so much why haven't you banned living end yet? It's kind of good I hear./sarcasm
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@GoTexans: I have answers for a lot of your objections.

Blazing Shoal - It enabled consistent t2-t3 kills, and in a highly non-interactive fashion. It's the kind of deck that is not a problem because of what it does, but because of what it makes impossible to do.

Cloudpost - See above. Rendered control unviable, and that was a problem.

Ponder/Preordain - One of them needed to go because they made combo far too consistent. They did not both need to go.

Rite of Flame - It made a lot of decks WAY too fast. I mean, did you read the coverage? 

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Twin still has serum visions and sleight of hand...just saying
And now the ignorant resort to ad hominem attacks in the face of logic...

...and every post I can recall you writing in which I was quoted contained an insult of some kind.  Having an opposing opinion to yours is not ignorance, and I resent the name-calling you opened with.  I do not anticipate this ban will change very much aside from making aggro a little stronger, and changing which combo decks will be on top.  You disagree.  I have read your logic and do not find it compelling.  Instead of exchanging debates with you, which so far for me contain insulting insinuations if not outright insults, I choose to wait and see what actually happens with the metagame.

BTW, what do you play?  I keep proposing that those that are happy with the ban (and others as well) follow their comments with what deck they actively play in Modern, and few have had the interest in doing so.

I definitely understand banning the combo pieces. Blazing Shoal especially was a very non-interactive deck, and they want to avoid that. I suppose that is why they banned ponder and preordain too, because the combo decks that use them could just ignore the opponent until it was time to go off. Now those same decks have to play more control to buy time until they can go off. I still don't agree with those decisions though, and I would have much rather they just banned Splinter Twin and Pyromancer's Ascension.

The only one of these I'm really upset about is Green Sun's Zenith. That was a great toolbox card that gave decks a lot of room for customization, and it gave non-zoo green decks a way to race/answer all the combo decks. If they're worried about decks tutoring for combo pieces, then they failed to realize that Glittering Wish will do the same thing for 1 more mana. So rather than stop the combos, they've just taken away another card that helped deal with the combos.

That said, nothing from the deck I've been playing has been affected yet, so I will continue to enjoy the format. If they ban Birthing Pod, I will probably just go back to standard and legacy only.
This format is just terrible and there isn't a reason to touch it.

Yay.  Moar goyfs turning sideways.

I loved the part where they banned cards when they had one of the most diverse t8s ever at a PT.

Magic is awesome, but the management team is terrible.

Cool, guess I'm playing Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions?

I just can't get over how they can take such an awesome card pool and just make it terribad.

I'm glad Razorgore is enjoying it  *eyeroll*

At least I don't need to hear about SHOAL CONSISTENTLY kills turn 2 ever again.

It doesn't and didn't.  One of six of seven games?  Srsly.  No man.  We can't run Ghost Quarter or Dismember or any other answers.  We can't watch how the format evolves with time.  

We.
Can't.
Make.
Rational.
Data.
Driven.
Decisions.

But at least Razorgore is happy.

 
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I was just saying, they banned the 2 better of the one drop digs, but the other two will be able to fit into tjose spots easily. Blazing and zenith should not have been banned. And it ia for all reasons addressed previously. I still believe that they banned far too early. We never even had a chance to metagame. Cloudpost, imo, should still be legal. Ban emrykal. He is what broke that deck.

I suppose that is why they banned ponder and preordain too, because the combo decks that use them could just ignore the opponent until it was time to go off. Now those same decks have to play more control to buy time until they can go off. I still don't agree with those decisions though, and I would have much rather they just banned Splinter Twin and Pyromancer's Ascension.  



Wouldn't have mattered. What made U/R combo so good was the tools U/R had to get comboes off, banning individual comboes doesn't matter if you still have such a huge glut of one CC deck filtering. (Fine on it's own and in combo decks, but degenerate when stacked in combo.)



We never even had a chance to metagame. Cloudpost, imo, should still be legal. Ban emrykal. He is what broke that deck.



Four posts was good enough to reasonably compete with affinity, affinity is banned. So an even better post deck is fair?



I loved the part where they banned cards when they had one of the most diverse t8s ever at a PT.
 



Eight combo decks is pretty clearly not diverse.

------------------------------

The real problem with this isn't what they banned(which is pretty much all fine.), it's what they didn't unban. Namely visions/mental misstep.





Eight combo decks is pretty clearly not diverse.



Except by definition, you're pretty much spot on.

Although it was seven decks total.

Oh, and they weren't all combo.

So there's all that I suppose. 
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Eight combo decks is pretty clearly not diverse.



Except by definition, you're pretty much spot on.

Although it was seven decks total.

Oh, and they weren't all combo.

So there's all that I suppose. 


Come off it, Islands. A top 8 of 6 combo decks and 2 aggro decks is not actually diversity and you know that. Yes, some of the combo decks were different. No, that's not particularly meaningful.

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Eight combo decks is pretty clearly not diverse.



Except by definition, you're pretty much spot on.

Although it was seven decks total.

Oh, and they weren't all combo.

So there's all that I suppose. 


Come off it, Islands. A top 8 of 6 combo decks and 2 aggro decks is not actually diversity and you know that. Yes, some of the combo decks were different. No, that's not particularly meaningful.



Again, it's only diverse by the definition.

We had months of 6-7 Caw decks in T2 without bannings.  That is a lack of diversity. 
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I understand blazing shoal, but COME ON.

12post sucked.  It in no way needed to be banned, it was just a bad deck.

preordain and ponder:  these guys aren't banned in legacy, the format with tons of comboes and storm decks.  Banning them here is just nuts.

GSZ getting banned is just nuts.  How did it break the format exactly?

In conclusion, WOTC is taking the banhammer to anything people are too lazy to sideboard ensnaring bridge or chalice of the void for.

On the bright side, with the mandatory slaying of 12post, control might have a chance, and I hope it does, because the meta now is going to be nothing but control and aggro.



As you stated, 12 post out, control in.
Preordain and Ponder are both very weird bans, but I can understand their need to hinder a lot of combo.
GSZ seems like a premptive ban, as in the meta that comes afterwards I can see Midrange strategies thrive with GSZ tutoring as the core.
Its not a matter of sideboard, its a matter of sideboard slots, as the opponent could always sideboard something else to get rid of your sideboard completely.
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Again, it's only diverse by the definition.

We had months of 6-7 Caw decks in T2 without bannings.  That is a lack of diversity. 


That happened a total of... once (?) in about 4 months of tournaments. Also, top 8 really isn't actually the relevant issue. Top Modern decks IS.

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@lina...affinity is still around. It will be a mainstay, lands or not. And you didnt address a single thing that I posted. I still maintain that, if given more time, the next big event would be a lot different. New decks would emerge to combat the meta, now that there is an idea of one. Decks and the side would be more streamlined, and then, if necessary, you could consider bannings. I think wotc got a bit trigger-happy on the banning.
And the post deck would have been competative but fair if it was not for emrykal. He made the deck impossible for interaction.
The amount of diversity really depends on what you are focusing on.  If you are focusing on the big three (control, combo, aggro), then yes, there was not as much diversity as Islands said.  If, however, you are treating each archetype as the unique deck that it is (ie no all combo decks are the same), then there clearly was a very diverse metagame.  I am a control player, and I really want control to be viable in Modern, but I do not think all combo decks are the same.  I think the metagame had a lot of diversity because how you play against each archetype differs at least a little-bit (and in some cases a lot)

I'm literally frothing at the mouth mad right now.


 


they have managed to literally ban 2 of the 4 decks i have in modern and neutered another one mostly >.<


they killed:


Dragonstorm


12 post


and A green combo deck i was working on using genesis wave and GSZ, since one of the 2 are now not viable, its gonna be ALOT harder because honestly, chord of calling is terrible and i really don't want to use it.

not only did they manage to kick most of my decks into a corner, they managed to Keep Aggro just fine on top, and STILL not let control get better because theres still twin keeping afloat just fine and that deck stomps control like nobodies business.

Also Zoo is stupidly powerful in this format, and i know they won't touch it because they love when the metagame is turn stuff sideways and win.


I'm guess i'm stuck with Deathcloud Rock now to see if i can get it viable.  also i'll attempt to put martyr.dec together again and see how it does, but really, thats just not fair to me.

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