09/20/2011 Feature: "September 20 2011 DCI Banned & Restricted List Announcement"

208 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature Article, which goes live Tuesdaymorning on magicthegathering.com.
NOOOOOOO! Not Mental Misstep!?! You need that in Legacy!
Mental Mistep, now legal in like 1 format. Normally, I'm pretty supportive of Wizards decisions, but it seems we've had so many bannings lately. I mean yeesh.

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/1206663433"><img src="http://pwp.wizards.com/1206663433/Scorecards/Landscape.png" border="0" /></a>


Lulz. This is hilarious.  You banned Green Sun's Zenith(i literally lol'd at that one).  And now with all the new bannings I shall get popcorn and await the nerd rage!
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Well, mine is more of the nerd general discontent.

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/1206663433"><img src="http://pwp.wizards.com/1206663433/Scorecards/Landscape.png" border="0" /></a>

GSZ ban is interesting, but I'm on board with everything here.
Why did they ban Ponder and Preordain?

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/1206663433"><img src="http://pwp.wizards.com/1206663433/Scorecards/Landscape.png" border="0" /></a>

I'm fine with the bannings as well.  (Might have banned Emrakul over Cloudpost, but this works too.)  Rite of Flame in particular needed the banhammer.  That said, I'm not sure how much banning Ponder and Preordain actually does.  Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are just fine cards themselves, so this is a very minor effect on blue-based combo decks.
Only card I'm sad to see banned is Green Sun. Also a little surprised to note see Emrakul get the axe. But yea, side from that, not shocked about the bans.

Why did they ban Ponder and Preordain?


They help fuel combo decks way to much. Personally I think Ponder could have been left, but they are being heavy handed atm since they would rather be safe then sorry.
So...you killed the core land of a big deck...Blue Utility is TOO GOOD and combo decks need to wait a turn.

Ok I guess...I mean, I'm fine with it as it def slows the format down but I can tell people are going to be piiiiiiiiissssssed.
Ponder and Preordain were both just too good at searching for Modern. With no good free counterspell, and card-dig this good and this common at 1 mana, there really weren't any decks that could match the combo decks. While answer decks did emerge, the U/R combo decks were in the end just too good. 
Cloudpost, I get too. It's definitely a necessary ban. The strategy is just too strong, and would otherwise always have been wating in the wings, ready to take 6 top 8 slots as soon as people weren't building their decks specifically to hate it out/outrace it.  
Fight for the Cookie! click for a secret message!
Show
click (again) for a secret message!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
and again!
Show
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNoi_wwzbtQ
Show
WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN?
Creator of:
Show
Standard:
Show
Soul Stealer Angeltap Bloodchief Ascension Black Knights Infect Knights Mono-Green Control Turbo Bant The Solution
Extended:
Show
Tight Sight 2010 Dralnu Fog Extended Knights Kor Dad Bolas Ramp
Legacy:
Show
DragonForce Tight Sight 2011 Hulk-Tooth All-in-Black Wake
Wins I have Witnessed[sblock]
57070368 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
Even metallix is gone now.
I'm right here.
Thank god Cloudpost got the axe in Modern, it was getting entirely tedious to play against 12-post in every other match on MTGO.
Have to admit, I find these bannings pretty lulzy. Most of the pros don't seem to mind the format as it used to stand, and while I think that either Cloudpost or Emrakul needed a ban (and possibly Rites), I think unbanning Ancestral Visions or (gasp!) JTMS would have had the same effect on the format with much less fuss.

Also: GSZ ban? Why?

Edit: Unbanning Mental Misstep in combination with some other control cards might not have been terrible, either, although it also could have eliminated aggro from the format. 
i figured unbanning some of the other cards would have happened as well.  I mean those cards werent even legal to dominate a metagame maybe they would have balanced it? I mean how bad is JtMS if combo can win on turn 4 as well? oh well too late to pontificate about it now.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Cue the next crop of turn 3 combo decks. >.>
Check out my magic blog: http://magicthemusing.wordpress.com/
If they didn't want people using GSZ to get Dryad Arbor, they could have just banned Drayad Arbor.

Also, I have a feeling that a lot of cards in the next block, maybe two, are going to get banned in Modern, I feel like they didn't test for the format any. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Prepare for a rant.

So let me get this straight. You banned 5 cards collectively across 4 formats that are from 2 years ago or newer, with jace and stoneforge in 3 of them, and misstep and preordain in 2. ITS ****ING R&D DEFECTIVE? ****ING GSZ IS BANNED?????!!!!!! PLAYTEST MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways, yeah. Don't **** up any more. I'm getting pissed; who are you, konami?
Have to admit, I find these bannings pretty lulzy. Most of the pros don't seem to mind the format as it used to stand, and while I think that either Cloudpost or Emrakul needed a ban (and possibly Rites), I think unbanning Ancestral Visions or (gasp!) JTMS would have had the same effect on the format with much less fuss.

Also: GSZ ban? Why?

Edit: Unbanning Mental Misstep in combination with some other control cards might not have been terrible, either, although it also could have eliminated aggro from the format. 

How, if most decks don't let you get to turn four fairly?
Dear Eric (and R&D),

I've been a MTG player for 17 years and I truly understand that bannings are part of the game. Its an unfortunate part of the game, and ridiculous accidents have happened (like Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar and the recent Jace TMS / Stoneforge Mystic fiasco). There have been quite a bit of banning this year but they have not annoyed me until today.

I'm annoyed because of your irresponsible and politically incorrect statement about your policies and the banning of Mental Misstep.

"The risk is mitigated, becuse if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card."

I'm sure you people test cards for a reason, so that the cards are balanced to play. This statement just goes to show that Mental Misstep didn't get playtested enough and you were using the player pool to playtest it. What is the point of R&D then? It annoys me because people shell out dollars to buy these cards and suddenly it becomes scrap cardboard. My foil $100 Japanese Mental Misstep shall go into my EDH deck now. It kind of makes me lose faith to keep cards because it doesn't seem like Wizards of the Coast cares that we shelled out hundreds of dollars for these cards, Jace and SFM included.



I mean you could have bought a normal english one for like 1/50th of that price.  Picking the super expensive foil japanese one was your own fault.  Especially when any card can get banned at any time.  It's a risk you chose to take.  Wizards isn't responsible to you wasting money on a shiny toy over promoting the general health of a format.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Have to admit, I find these bannings pretty lulzy. Most of the pros don't seem to mind the format as it used to stand, and while I think that either Cloudpost or Emrakul needed a ban (and possibly Rites), I think unbanning Ancestral Visions or (gasp!) JTMS would have had the same effect on the format with much less fuss.

Also: GSZ ban? Why?

Edit: Unbanning Mental Misstep in combination with some other control cards might not have been terrible, either, although it also could have eliminated aggro from the format. 

How, if most decks don't let you get to turn four fairly?



The problem with playing control hasn't been that you can't get to the late game, it's been that once you're there, you're still not ahead. JTMS solves that problem.
Check out my magic blog: http://magicthemusing.wordpress.com/
Because 3 months of a metagame with Mental Misstep is totally enough time for the format to adapt to it.  The Legacy game had finally been slowed down a bit.  Welcome back exact same set of decks from a few months ago.  F-ing ridiculous.

And Modern was already a dumb as hell format, so I don't really care about that list.  But Ponder/Preordain being added on top to the other dumb blue bans is hilarious too.
Photobucket My Trade Thread: The_Fringer's Mercantile Plane (Updated: 1/13/11)
I don't play Modern or Extended, but this hurts. Any time control and combo decks see play, they get gutted to unplayability leaving plain ol' aggro decks to run roughshod. How about you don't print combo/control cards if we aren't allowed to play them?

For god's sake wizards,

Why is Library still restricted in T1?
Why is Land Tax still banned in Legacy?


For god's sake wizards,

Why is Library still restricted in T1?
Why is Land Tax still banned in Legacy?




You deserve a cookie. I've been wanting Pox Tax again so bad.

(at)MrEnglish22


Also: GSZ ban? Why?


It's an amazing utility card. It basically lets you run copies 5-8 of any Green creature at once.

Personally I tihnk what ever targets were an issue should have gotten the axe, but I can understand at the very least why they would do it.

Free the Fedora!

Dear Eric (and R&D),

I've been a MTG player for 17 years and I truly understand that bannings are part of the game. Its an unfortunate part of the game, and ridiculous accidents have happened (like Tolarian Academy, Memory Jar and the recent Jace TMS / Stoneforge Mystic fiasco). There have been quite a bit of banning this year but they have not annoyed me until today.

I'm annoyed because of your irresponsible and politically incorrect statement about your policies and the banning of Mental Misstep.

"The risk is mitigated, becuse if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card."

I'm sure you people test cards for a reason, so that the cards are balanced to play. This statement just goes to show that Mental Misstep didn't get playtested enough and you were using the player pool to playtest it. What is the point of R&D then? It annoys me because people shell out dollars to buy these cards and suddenly it becomes scrap cardboard. My foil $100 Japanese Mental Misstep shall go into my EDH deck now. It kind of makes me lose faith to keep cards because it doesn't seem like Wizards of the Coast cares that we shelled out hundreds of dollars for these cards, Jace and SFM included.



I mean you could have bought a normal english one for like 1/50th of that price.  Picking the super expensive foil japanese one was your own fault.  Especially when any card can get banned at any time.  It's a risk you chose to take.  Wizards isn't responsible to you wasting money on a shiny toy over promoting the general health of a format.




also WOTC gets no money from you buying that $150 foil piece of card board it probably costs them bout $0.25 a pack and you buy from someone who is making lets see 

$150 - $3.99 a pack (plus tax) = around $140 off your dumdass because your paying for a piece of card board.


all that said i litterally picked up a play set of rites for about a buck and now i cant even play them F**** YOU WOTC  
Green Sun's Zenith was completely unnecessary.  I don't recall anybody complaining about that card being ridiculous.  Powerful, sure.  But a format has to have some powerful cards and zenith just wasn't something that was causing a major issue.
Come check out my friend's youtube channel where he gives bad movies what's coming to them!
You Make the Card
Best Contest Holder 2010 YMtC Idol 9 4th Place
Mafia History
Friendliest Player 2010 Werewolves Invade YMtC!: Town-aligned Rotworm Mass, Survived, Mafia Victory Heroes Mafia: Angela Petrelli, Town-Aligned Undercover Revengeful Mother, Win for Me, Mafia Victory Super Smash Bros. Mafia: Town-Aligned Mason, Survived, Town Victory Bear Mafia: Town-Aligned Vanilla, Lynched Day 1, Mafia Victory YMtC Mafia II: Henry-Stern, Town-Aligned Vanilla, Town Victory, Town MVP Time Fracture Mafia: Mafia-Aligned Nero, the Last Romulan, Lynched Day 3, Borg Victory Touhou Mafia III: Tenshi Hinani, Town-Aligned Vanilla, Survived, Mafia Victory, Town MVP Mafia 2010: Lynched Day 1, Town-Aligned Vanilla, Mafia Victory Dragonball Z Mafia: Goku, Town-Aligned Charismatic Townie, Mafia Victory Quarantined Mafia: Lynched Day 4, J. Walter Weatherman, Infected-Aligned Administrative Assistant, Mr. T (so basically mafia) Victory Glass Box Mafia: Killed Night 2, Icthys, Town-Aligned Networker, Town Victory Battle Royale Mafia: Killed Night 3, Zipperflesh and Dark Stryke Victory Scars of Mirrodin Mafia: Killed Night 3, Town-Aligned Charismatic, Mafia Victory Portal Mafia: Lynched Day 3, Test Subject #2, Mafia-Aligned Rolestopper, Town Victory (that was utter BS) Toxic Waste Mafia: Survived, Violet, Hive (Cult)-Aligned Powerless Taskmaster, Hive Victory PK Hatez You Mafia: Survived, Town-Aligned Goth, Mafia Victory Dreven City: A Wild West Mafia: Town-Aligned "Los Angeles" Reed, One-Shot Vig, Survived, Town Victory (just barely, major props to Just a Cleric) YMtC Mafia III: Killed Night 2, Mafia Victory Vampire Mafia: Mafia-Aligned Pander, Mafia Victory Touhou Border Collapse: Bill Cosby, Town-Aligned, Killed Night 1, Mafia Victory Harry Potter Mafia: Argus Filch, Town-Aligned Tracker, Lynched Day 5, Mafia Victory [Basic #5] Bandit Mafia: Town-Aligned Vanilla, Survived, Mafia Victory Borderlands Mafia: Town-Aligned Mason, Killed Night 1, Town Victory eBay Mafia: Mafia-Aligned, Survived, Mafia Victory Full Metal Alchemist Mafia: Alphonse Elric, Town-Aligned Mason, Killed Night 1, Town Victory Sunflowers for Ragnarokio: Lynched Day 3, Town/Just a Cleric/Tevish Szat/Faux-Razor Victory True Blood Mafia: Lynched Day 4, Mafia Victory My Mafia Diary: Skyhunter, Mafia-Aligned Emo, Survived, Flawless Mafia Victory Paper Mario Mafia: Blue Goomba, Town-Aligned Lover, Killed Night 2, Mafia Victory Small Town Mafia: Pigsticker Mafia-Aligned Coward, Killed Night 2, Caveman Mafia and Zipperflesh Victory Stuff on my Desk Mafia: Lotus Cobra, Town-Aligned Vanilla, Survived, Mafia Victory Order of the Chaos Rose Mafia: Lord Dagol Ji'Lovik, Town-Aligned Hypnotist, Mafia Victory, Town MVP Camp Crystal Lake Mafia: Ongoing A Certain Magical Mafia: Killed Night 1, Town-Aligned The Siege of Balignor Mafia: Ongoing, Killed Day 4 Mafia of Ancient Egypt: Replaced in for Murica day 2, Ra, Town-Aligned Charismatic, Town Victory, Town MVP Lord of the Rings Mafia: Replaced in for Dr Demento, Town-Aligned Mason/One-Shot Self-Doc, Town Victory, Town MVP Internet Stars Mafia: Town-Aligned Vanilla, Mafia Victory Mythos Mafia: Ongoing
Hey, fairly new player here, Only been since mirrordin beseiged, can someone explain to me while ponder and mental misstep got kicked so quickly while jace the ind sculptor and stonforge mystic took so long? Every time I saw standard tournaments All I saw was a bunch of caw blades, so what's up?
now there is NO answer to brainstorm or ponder or preordain in legacy! So now we will also see combo decks go crazy rampant and also no answer for any form of T1 discard spell to keep a winning card in your hand you just stare at it and say !@#$ing  wizards for now making legacy even more un fun!!!!
Green Sun's Zenith was completely unnecessary.  I don't recall anybody complaining about that card being ridiculous.  Powerful, sure.  But a format has to have some powerful cards and zenith just wasn't something that was causing a major issue.



it was mostly because of the twelve post decks is why.
I was surprised to see Cloudpost banned, but then 12-post was so dominant that I shouldn't have been.

I was shocked to see Mental Misstep banned in Legacy, but the explanation made sense. At least they didn't decide to ban Force of Will instead!

Since Rite of Flame is just about a Dark Ritual, if not more powerful, it isn't surprising to see it banned in Modern.

And if Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic are too powerful for Modern, not just Standard, then it's only logical for them to be banned in Extended.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

now there is NO answer to brainstorm or ponder or preordain in legacy!

Silly consumer!
Just go buy a playset of Force of Will like everone else. 

What? you can't afford four Force of Wills?  Maybe you should just stick to Standard and throw away half of your cards every year, or just draft every Friday and rebuy your whole deck weekly!

Hey, fairly new player here, Only been since mirrordin beseiged, can someone explain to me while ponder and mental misstep got kicked so quickly while jace the ind sculptor and stonforge mystic took so long? Every time I saw standard tournaments All I saw was a bunch of caw blades, so what's up?



Nope. That's just it,  No one can explain any of it.  Sure R&D member Erik Lauer made a report on it, but that had less information than a freshman english lit paper.  I mean, if the reason is "the cards are too good" and all are less than 2 years old... wait a minute.  This is GREAT news.  heck I have no reason to play standard to get those good cards to improve my modern/legacy decks.  Obviously, the new cards are the first to go so I'll just buy one deck and sit on that for ever and not spend all my disposable income on magic.  Thanks Erik. you saved me tons of money.  Sure I'll drop 75 a pop for force of will... but that's still less than the grand or so I spent on the current block and M12.  in the long run, I save money!

Also: GSZ ban? Why?


It's an amazing utility card. It basically lets you run copies 5-8 of any Green creature at once.

Personally I tihnk what ever targets were an issue should have gotten the axe, but I can understand at the very least why they would do it.



What green creatures are so broken that having copies 5-8 at +1 mana destroys the metagame? If T1 Dryad Arbor is that bad, ban Dryad Arbor, not GSZ.

How, if most decks don't let you get to turn four fairly?



The problem with playing control hasn't been that you can't get to the late game, it's been that once you're there, you're still not ahead. JTMS solves that problem. 



This. Practically the entire CFB crew commented on how impossible it is to play control due to the inability to make any gains by slowing the game down. JTMS allows you to do that, so does AV.
WotC are committing to their ridiculously arbitrary 'no turn 3 kills' rules for Modern while completly ignoring that those decks exist due to redundancy from the large card pool rather than individual cards themselves being too powerful. Because this format covers so many sets, you have too many rituals, too many blue card dig and too many potential combo pieces, as well as too many aggressively costed creatures, too many efficient duals, etc etc, to make this goal realistic.

What WotC has now committed to is a probably unending series of reactionary nerfs that will occur after every major tournament in the format. First they banned multiple cards prior to Philly with absolutly no event data to base their bans on. Now they're stuck banning every combo deck that would have been too bad to compete in the actual pre-banlist Modern format, without even waiting for the meta to stabilize by letting more events take place. In our articles series we already see that the online metagame has basically made Splinter Twin and Shoal irrelevant, while Counter-Cat has since become dominant (if you're wondering about GSZ ban, that deck is responsible) without any reason to think it would remain king of the hill. Given more time and one or two more sets, it's likely the meta would be entirely different for the next Modern GP or Pro Tour. In the future, every new ritual or Ponder-like effect will effectively reproduce the exact same problem by allowing too many of these cards to be available for decks. Even now Sleight of Hand and Serum Vision are quite efficient enough to take the place of Ponder and Preordain, and only one more such card slightly aggressively costed will result in the same series of bans all over again.

I think WotC dropped the ball from the very moment they announced the Philly banlist, and now they're too proud to go back and unban most of the stuff they put on the list for no reason, so they need to go all-in on their previous bad decision.
now there is NO answer to brainstorm or ponder or preordain in legacy!

Silly consumer!
Just go buy a playset of Force of Will like everone else. 

What? you can't afford four Force of Wills?  Maybe you should just stick to Standard and throw away half of your cards every year, or just draft every Friday and rebuy your whole deck weekly!




i actually have 2 playsets of force of wills for your information!!! and standard from here on is pretty much dead, so is extended, and zoo will take over modern thats if people even want to play it at all, and yea mental was a shock to me being banned.
Green Sun's Zenith was completely unnecessary.  I don't recall anybody complaining about that card being ridiculous.  Powerful, sure.  But a format has to have some powerful cards and zenith just wasn't something that was causing a major issue.



it was mostly because of the twelve post decks is why.


If it was the Tweolve Post deck they really could have just banned Primeval. Personaly, I would have perfered that or kicking Emrakul. Again it's that any green deck has access to most of their creatures with just that 1 card.

Hey, fairly new player here, Only been since mirrordin beseiged, can someone explain to me while ponder and mental misstep got kicked so quickly while jace the ind sculptor and stonforge mystic took so long? Every time I saw standard tournaments All I saw was a bunch of caw blades, so what's up?


It's because we just got the format. ATM wizards is trying to settle things and is being heavy handed with the ban list to create a meta game they like. After that odds are we'll start seeing cards coming back.
In regards to GSZ, it appears that most people cannot read.  They banned it to increase diversity among green decks, not for power reasons.  With it present, the "correct" green decks will always look pretty similar.  To use another phrase, it forces convergence among the best green strategies, and WotC is hoping for the possibility of divergence (which is not guaranteed of course.)   It can be mathematically represented as a chaotic attractor in phase space.
4. Don't speak dumb, or you'll be struck dumb. Remember, the name of the game is heads I win, tails you lose.
Hey, fairly new player here, Only been since mirrordin beseiged, can someone explain to me while ponder and mental misstep got kicked so quickly while jace the ind sculptor and stonforge mystic took so long? Every time I saw standard tournaments All I saw was a bunch of caw blades, so what's up?



You're comparing Standard bannings to Modern bannings.  Standard self-fixes via rotating with enough patience, but Modern never does.  They hadn't banned anything from Standard since 2005, so doing it at all was pretty major.


Also Jace, while certainly dominant, at least let people get to the 4th turn.  Combo will always get the greatest ban attention.


And last, ban decisions happen quarterly.  It just so happens this announcement was shortly after the Modern debut, while Caw-Blade was too soon to ban at once announcement then long-overdue by the next.  Just a quirk of timing.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.


What green creatures are so broken



None individually. That's the point. But look at Counter-Cat and you can see it can fetch Dryad, mana dorks, Tarmogoyf, Gaddock Teeg, Knight of the Reliquary, not to mention a deck could use it for Doran, Primeval Titan and other shenanigans. It's just like Mystical Teachings: you ban the enabler, not the individual pieces who are all of them perfectly fine by themselves (personally I think Cloudpost would be reasonable enough without Vesuva and that Vesuva is likely to constrain design space a lot more than Cloudpost so that should have been the ban target, but whatever).

Once you've committed to a goal so ridiculously over the top it means banning Ponder/Preordain and Shoal, of all things, Green Sun Zenith is pretty much a goner as well. If I disagree with their mission statement, I certainly think GSZ ban is perfectly in line with their goal and is in fact proactive and shows an insight in the format that a lot of commenters who only worried about pieces of Twin and Poison lacked.
Sign In to post comments