Galstaff: Making Magic Missile the best power ever?

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Galstaff

A Wizard build



Disclaimer: From my understanding of 4e rules and mechanics, this SHOULD work, but feel free to point out any flaws.

I was piddling around on character builder the other day creating a Mage based on joemama1512's Thunder Blaster Wizard, figuring that I could use the Pyromancy school to squeeze even more damage out of the build by combining fire spells with the thunder keyword.

For those of you unfamiliar with the build, it uses the Swordmage's Malec-Keth Janissary paragon path to add 1d4 damage of a chosen to all attacks (in this case, Thunder) to give all Wizard attacks an elemental keyword.

Thats when I saw this:
Oh God.

Oh God. A damage roll. ON MAGIC MISSILE!

That dinky little 1d4 of Thunder Damage changes everything, adding both the Thunder keyword and all of our static modifiers from feats and items. However, it still doesn't allow you to benefit from effects that give you +dmg on a hit. Luckily, this doesn't affect much in the long run.

So now our magic missile does 1d4+3+6(Int)+6(Str)+4(enh)+4(item)+4(DIS)+2(Focus)+3(Dragonshard)
or
1d4+32 Force and Thunder damage. Automatic hit. As a Ranged Basic Attack.

Remember that horrible lvl 1 wizard daily power that let you cast magic missile as a minor action once per round?

Oh Yes...


The Nova


At level 16:

Setup round: Cast Wizard's Fury and Promise of Storm as minor actions. Promise of storm gives +2d8dmg to thunder powers that Hit, and with Elemental Echo, gives +4 bonus to all damage rolls while it is active. Your Genasi Soul armor will let you do this twice per encounter if you need to.

After you buff yourself, cast an close burst 4 (thanks Resounding Thunder!) party friendly Fire Shroud on your target and every other enemy to trigger Echoes of Thunder and massive damage.

Fire Shroud: +21 vs Fort, 1d8+2d8(PoS)+1d4(PP)+6(Int)+4(enh)+4(Item)+4(DIS)+2(Pyro)+6(Str)+2(Focus)+3(Dragonshard)+4(Echo)+2(EoT)+5 ongoing fire damage.
or
3d8+1d4+37+5ong plus an additional 3 damage if you hit more than one target (Destructive Wizardry)

Nova Round:
Action Point (Standard): Magic Missile - 1d4+32+4(Echo)+2(EoT) force and thunder damage.
Minor: Magic Missile - 1d4+38 force and thunder damage.
Free: Ring of Fury (Daily) - Magic Missile as RBA - 1d4+38 force and thunder damage.
Standard: Your choice of a thunder infused high dmg wizard daily (Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire, Prismatic Beams, ect.)
Move: RUN AWAY

Regardless of what you choose for your daily, you will have automatically done 3d4+114 damage to a single target without having to roll. It can't crit, but it can't miss either :P

 For the rest of the encounter, you can use your standard and minor to double-tap another round of magic missiles each turn for excellent DPR, even after your buffs have worn off. If you have a leader that grants free RBAs, you're in even better shape.

As you level up, snag White Lotus master riposte to Magic Missile any sucker who hits you as an immediate reaction. At epic tier, quickened spell will stack on even more DPR. Even before level 16 where this build takes off, you will be a competent and fearsome blaster thanks to your fire spells.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Galstaff, level 16
Genasi, Wizard (Mage), Malec-Keth Janissary
School: Pyromancy School
School: Evocation School
Expert Mage Option: Evocation School Expert
Master Mage Option: Evocation School Master
Devshirme Training Option: Gain Training in a skill
Elemental Manifestation Option: Stormsoul
Maelstrom (Athletics class skill)
Theme: Order Adept
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 11, DEX 13, INT 22, WIS 13, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 10, DEX 12, INT 16, WIS 12, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 31 Fort: 28 Ref: 27 Will: 26
HP: 81 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 20
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +23, Athletics +19, Dungeoneering +14, Nature +16, Religion +19
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +7, Endurance +12, Heal +9, History +14, Insight +9, Intimidate +13, Perception +9, Stealth +9, Streetwise +7, Thievery +9
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Order Adept Attack: Argent Rain
Genasi Racial Power: Promise of Storm
Wizard Utility: Mage Hand
Wizard Utility: Prestidigitation
Wizard Utility: Ghost Sound
Wizard Attack 1: Sleep
Wizard Attack 1: Flaming Sphere
Wizard Attack 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation
Wizard Attack 1: Burning Hands
Wizard Attack 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard Attack 1: Winged Horde
Wizard Attack 1: Magic Missile
Wizard Utility 2: Arcane Insight
Wizard Utility 2: Shield
Wizard Utility 2: Moonstride
Wizard Attack 3: Fire Shroud
Wizard Attack 3: Color Spray
Wizard Attack 5: Stinking Cloud
Wizard Attack 5: Tasha's Forcible Conscription
Wizard Utility 6: Dispel Magic
Wizard Utility 6: Wizard's Escape
Wizard Attack 7: Fire Burst
Wizard Attack 7: Thunder Cage
Wizard Attack 9: Symphony of the Dark Court
Wizard Attack 9: Wall of Fire
Wizard Utility 10: Arcane Gate
Wizard Utility 10: Illusory Wall
Malec-Keth Janissary Attack 11: Loyal Unto Death
Malec-Keth Janissary Utility 12: Ever-Present Escort
Wizard Attack 13: Prismatic Burst
Wizard Attack 13: Wake of Fire
Wizard Attack 15: Slumber of the Winter Court
Wizard Attack 15: Prismatic Beams
Wizard Utility 16: Clever Escape
Wizard Utility 16: Phase Shift
 
FEATS
Level 1: Elemental Empowerment
Level 2: Elemental Echo
Level 4: Armor Proficiency: Leather
Level 6: Staff Expertise
Level 8: Echoes of Thunder
Level 10: Blade Initiate
Level 11: Resounding Thunder
Level 12: Destructive Wizardry
Level 14: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 16: Implement Focus (Staff)
 
ITEMS
Rhythm Blade Dagger +4
Periapt of Cascading Health +3 x1
Burning Gauntlets (paragon tier) x1
Siberys Shard of the Mage (paragon tier)
Ring of Draconic Zeal (paragon tier) x1
Ring of Fury (paragon tier) x1
Genasi Soul Leather Armor +4 x1
Staff of Ruin +4 x1
====== End ======
Check out my homebrew Witcher class [Link] and my homebrew Samurai [Link]
I'm pretty sure MKJ can't add a damage roll to MM.
Yeah, it's EXTRA damage, which never recieves modifiers. Only the base damage roll can get those mods. Nice thought though.

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Extra damage doesn't count as a damage roll.  You still only do 13+1d4+4 = 19.5

And wizard's fury is 1/round, so it doesn't nova very well.

Also, reaper's touch allows you to get some charge boosters, and possibly some MBA stuff for it.

Might want to check out my Sir Robbin, which adds charge (away), slow, and push 8 to MM.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

But can he cast it at the darkness?
But can he cast it at the darkness?


Only if there are girls there!
Haha, I figured it was gonna be too good to be true.

Is there a way to consistently apply a large amount of elemental vulnerability to a target, giving bonus dmg without requiring a damage roll?

Something like lasting frost but more potent?

Also, if extra damage doesnt count as a damage roll, wheres that extra 4 damage listed in the character builder coming from?
Check out my homebrew Witcher class [Link] and my homebrew Samurai [Link]
Haha, I figured it was gonna be too good to be true.

Is there a way to consistently apply a large amount of elemental vulnerability to a target, giving bonus dmg without requiring a damage roll?

Something like lasting frost but more potent?

Morninglord PP gives vuln 10 to radiant.

But lasting frost is pretty popluar for a reason.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.



Magic Missile specifically benefits from enhancement bonuses despite lacking a damage roll.



Right, which is why its base 13 damage, 3+6(int)+4(enh), but theres another +4dmg...
Check out my homebrew Witcher class [Link] and my homebrew Samurai [Link]
Extra damage doesn't count as a damage roll.  You still only do 13+1d4+4 = 19.5

FWIW this rule does not actually exist. Damage rolls, as defined in the RC, are any time you roll damage for a power. Extra damage is done by the power. If the extra damage is a roll then the power has a damage roll.

I am still not sure where this came from because other then one sentence in the PHB in the magic item section the concept does not exist in the rules.


Magic Missile specifically benefits from enhancement bonuses despite lacking a damage roll.



Right, which is why its base 13 damage, 3+6(int)+4(enh), but theres another +4dmg...

Some things add damage even without a roll.  Or it could just be a bug.

If you click on the power, it should list the damage.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Extra damage doesn't count as a damage roll.  You still only do 13+1d4+4 = 19.5

FWIW this rule does not actually exist. Damage rolls, as defined in the RC, are any time you roll damage for a power. Extra damage is done by the power. If the extra damage is a roll then the power has a damage roll.

I am still not sure where this came from because other then one sentence in the PHB in the magic item section the concept does not exist in the rules.



"Extra damage" is a defined game term.

"Damage roll" is a defined game term.


They're different things for the same reason "Dazed" and "Stunned" are different things:  Because they're defined separately and nothing ever says they're the same.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
My attempt at using the new Magic Missile for a daily nova, the Missile Commander:  It will become outdated when the Arcanist nerfs become official, since Cloud of Daggers takes a nerf there, but until then it deals almost 2k damage as a daily nova, most of that auto-damage.  In other words, kill Bahamut in one turn.  Pretty epic IMHO.


"Extra damage" is a defined game term.

"Damage roll" is a defined game term.


They're different things for the same reason "Dazed" and "Stunned" are different things:  Because they're defined separately and nothing ever says they're the same.



From the Compendium Definitions:

Damage Roll


A roll of a die or dice to determine damage dealt by a power or some other effect. Modifiers to a damage roll apply to the entire roll, not to each die rolled.


Extra Damage


Many powers and other effects grant the ability to deal extra damage. Extra damage is always in addition to other damage. This means an attack that deals no damage, such as the wizard power sleep, can’t deal extra damage.


 


It's kinda vague on the interpretation of extra damage dice as a damage roll. If you consider the extra dice to be part of the "entire roll" then the modifiers should apply.


Can we get an official ruling on this?

Check out my homebrew Witcher class [Link] and my homebrew Samurai [Link]
Extra damage doesn't count as a damage roll.  You still only do 13+1d4+4 = 19.5

FWIW this rule does not actually exist. Damage rolls, as defined in the RC, are any time you roll damage for a power. Extra damage is done by the power. If the extra damage is a roll then the power has a damage roll.

I am still not sure where this came from because other then one sentence in the PHB in the magic item section the concept does not exist in the rules.



"Extra damage" is a defined game term.

"Damage roll" is a defined game term.


They're different things for the same reason "Dazed" and "Stunned" are different things:  Because they're defined separately and nothing ever says they're the same.



They're different things, but there is nothing that says they are exclusive: a single instance of damage could be both extra damage and a damage roll.

That said, I do seem to remember this was resolved somewhere, probably in an FAQ.  Based solely on the RC though, there's no reason I could find that prevents extra damage from constituting a damage roll.
Trying to stick strictly to the rules text, it's unclear.  The best answer is to rule as Erachima suggested; otherwise the game can break down.


  1. A power does damage.  That can be rolled or static.

  2. If a power does rolled damage, then it has a damage roll, and thus acquires certain benefits.

  3. It a some game element adds extra damage, that is added on.  That extra damage could be rolled or static, it's still extra damage.  (this is the statement with no explicit rules support)

If you break that assumption, then Brutal Barrage is pretty easy to turn into WTFBBQ.  Magic Missile can be easily seriously bent.  Just don't go there for the balance of the game, kthx.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

"Extra damage" is a defined game term.

"Damage roll" is a defined game term.


They're different things for the same reason "Dazed" and "Stunned" are different things:  Because they're defined separately and nothing ever says they're the same.

The definition of "damage roll" is "damage done by a power that involves rolling a die." The definition for extra damage is that "it is done by the power."

So put those two together and... oh hey. I know how the terms are defined, thanks, my point is the definitions say that extra damage adds a damage roll.

Can we get an official ruling on this?



The official ruling is the same as it's always been: no, doesn't work, stop asking.

Having a damage roll or not having a damage roll is an inherent trait of a power. It cannot be altered.


A link would be great.  I'm not doubting you or arguing with you: as noted above, I recall that this is the case.  However, I'm not able to find whatever FaQ (or whatever) makes this clear.  The definitions of both "Extra Damage" and "Damage Roll" found in the Rules Compendium, as well as the longer entries for both on pages 222 and 223, do not support this ruling.  The FaQs for both the PHB and the RC say nothing about this.
I don't think the existence of an "extra damage" distinction is particularly clearly supported by the rules. It's more of a CharOp convention, IMO. I think quite a few CharOppers let it slide when people assert that the rules explicitly support such a distinction, because they know that ultimately if you don't have such a distinction, things can get awfully broken awfully fast. Brutal Barrage doesn't need that buff.
And Kiltpads explained it better than I did anyway.
if a power deals say, 5 damage statically, thats all it does

but if my weapon of awsome+1 allows me to deal +1d6 extra damage  to any target i hit with an attack, then the final damage total will be 1d6+5 it will not be 1d6+damage roll mods+5 

take it as saying "you will deal 1-6 more damage" this is not a damage roll it is a roll to determine how much extra damage the weapon of awsome is giving you.  
if a power deals say, 5 damage statically, thats all it does

but if my weapon of awsome+1 allows me to deal +1d6 extra damage  to any target i hit with an attack, then the final damage total will be 1d6+5 it will not be 1d6+damage roll mods+5 

take it as saying "you will deal 1-6 more damage" this is not a damage roll it is a roll to determine how much extra damage the weapon of awsome is giving you.  

Stating that is nice. Can you back it up with a rule?

Answer: No, no you can't, because no such rule actually exists (one kind of sort used to in the PHB, it was one line in the magic item section, not even in the damage section, and it no longer applies at all.)

The opposing argument actually does have rules that support it. Like so:

"A roll of dice to determine damage." RC 222. OK, so a damage roll is... when you roll dice to determine damage. Straigtforward. It doesn't say it has to be part of the power, or it can't be extra damage, or anything like that. It says roll dice for damage = damage roll.

"Extra damage" is done by the power. RC 223.

Put these together. Extra damage, that is a roll, is a damage roll of a power. Thus anything that gets added to damage rolls now gets added to that power.

This is what you'd call a sound, deductively valid argument. If the premises are true, and they are, the conclusion must be true. Since the premises are true, it is sound, and thus true.

I am perfectly willing to agree that that is has ridiculously powerful implications... but so what? That is the actual RAW. This forum operates on RAW, no matter how broke it may be (iterative zone damage says hi) even if we don't actually play real games with it.
Alcestis, there's the TO and the PO sides of Char Op.  And while they don't have nice separate forums like they used to in the 3.X days, they still exist.

On the TO side, sure.  Go Nuts.  State your assumptions ("rolled extra damage turns static damage into rolled damage"), and go nuts.  But if you're not killing Orcus with your DPR, I don't think anyone will be impressed.

On the PO side, no DM will ever let that abuse stand.  So for PO purposes, I'd suggest keeping to the consensus delusion that there IS the rule that there really should be, and putting this trick in the same bin and "PMC Ranger for Dual Strike" and recursive readings that do infinite damage.

Be nice to DMs.  Without them, there is no game.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

No I'd rather inanely argue.  After all, I'm sure Wizards of the Coast will publish errata that nails the items of concern on the head and clarifies all the major rules questions! Ha HA Ha Ha.
No I'd rather inanely argue.  After all, I'm sure Wizards of the Coast will publish errata that nails the items of concern on the head and clarifies all the major rules questions! Ha HA Ha Ha.


In addition to your name, I also like the cut of your jib and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
On the TO side, sure.  Go Nuts.  State your assumptions ("rolled extra damage turns static damage into rolled damage"), and go nuts.  But if you're not killing Orcus with your DPR, I don't think anyone will be impressed.

Fairly sure BB with a damage roll would nearly kill Orcus...

PMC Ranger Dual Strike barely has the same DPR as standard builds and is in no way abusive.

I'm just saying, the rules say it. We see iterative damage builds, this is no different. It ought to be treated the same way: goes in the handbook of the broken and is abused in TO. Though it has some perfectly fine niche PO. /shrug.

FWIW, I'd allow this in my games. So your statement that no DM would let it stand is wrong. I've let everything that is RAW stand in my games.
Though it has some perfectly fine niche PO. /shrug.

FWIW, I'd allow this in my games. So your statement that no DM would let it stand is wrong. I've let everything that is RAW stand in my games.

I consider this reading RAW as well, although RAW readings also allow the insanity ala mellored's Lightning Fury forced movement 16 build iirc.  But for niche cases like bear shaman with Protector's Shield feat it works perfectly fine.

For balance sake however, I think that either Rules Compendium should be errata'd (the horror!) or Brutal Barrage.  My personal preference would be to dumb down BB, ymmv.

If you go with the "adding a roll to static damage makes it a damage roll", then every single thing that has static damage starts being questionable.  So a general rule is the preferred route here.

BB is it's own problem, but is just one instance of around 50 or so.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Alcestis's approach toward the primacy of RAW is one that I find problematic, and this is a good example of why.

It's important to understand why the rules, not just what they say.  It's a basic fact that things like autodamage, zones, ongoing, etc. aren't damage rolls precisely because they don't want you to load up on bonuses to damage and superpower them without having to bother with an attack roll.  It's bad for balance.  Taking magic missile as an example, it did have a damage roll back when it also had an attack roll.  And that attack roll limited its power considerably in exchange for the possibility of more damage.

Now, it's entirely possible to build an optimized character that hits on a 2 with a power with a damage roll, but that's fine.  It takes player resources to do it.  The problem with an approach like the one in the OP is that it allows you to sidetrack all dependence on accuracy and still have the same damage as everyone else.  That's bad for the game, and willful ignorance of that fact in support of RAW is a mistake.

And yes, "you're doing it wrong" is an acceptable response to this, to the point of saying that Alcestis shouldn't allow this as DM in a local game.  Being able to compensate via other DM techniques is irrelevant, the damage is still done.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I consider this reading RAW as well, although RAW readings also allow the insanity ala mellored's Lightning Fury forced movement 16 build iirc.  But for niche cases like bear shaman with Protector's Shield feat it works perfectly fine.

To be fair, that's not really my build.  I only tweaked it.  Doubled the DPR, but still, it was mostly tweaks.

BB is it's own problem, but is just one instance of around 50 or so.

It's zone abuse that's the problem.  BB on it's own, even with full damage bumps (Lyrandar Wind-Rider, headman's chop, cold/radiant vuln), still isn't any worse then plane old twin-strike.

Brilliant recovery might be a bit worse.  Though it's high enough level to be ok.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

But if BB got the benefit of all of the "bonus to damage roll" effects, it'd be precisely twice as good as twin strike.  Battleminds would become, bar none, the best strikers in the game.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Stating that is nice. Can you back it up with a rule?

Answer: No, no you can't, because no such rule actually exists (one kind of sort used to in the PHB, it was one line in the magic item section, not even in the damage section, and it no longer applies at all.)


That's the same rationale that lets you use a RBA as a MBA and knock a prone person prone.

Seriously, the next PHB/Heroes book needs to include a paragraph like this:

Rules versus Common Sense

Even though D&D is an exceptions-based system, understand that not every possible outcome can be written into the rules.  In the abscense of a specific ruling, it is up to players and DMs to exercise common sense when playing the game.  To this end, if it feels wrong, it is.


Because, really, extra damage is not a damage roll, it's extra, a ranged attack is not a melee attack (and vice versa), and how exactly do you propose to make someone more prone than prone?

I get it.  RAW vs RAI, but sometimes RAW comes across as downright silly.
But then you get into much more subjective arguments about what "feels wrong" or is "silly". The only way the game can keep a semblance of being a single game (rather than a collection of similar games) is RAW being correct, and authoritative.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

And yes, "you're doing it wrong" is an acceptable response to this, to the point of saying that Alcestis shouldn't allow this as DM in a local game.  Being able to compensate via other DM techniques is irrelevant, the damage is still done.



I feel like sometimes people on these boards really underestimate the power of the DM. There is literally nothing a player can do that can't be reconciled by a skillful DM in such a way as to keep the game healthy and fun, and to be honest that's his/her job.

If Alcestis would allow it in his games he clearly has a method for dealing with it/making it fun. That's the beauty that I see in the system of using a Dungeon Master in the first place. All control is in their hands and they can do whatever needs to be done to keep things running smoothly. Banning things is never fun (in my opinion), and based on this thread things like MKJ make things like Magic Missile have static damage rolls by RAW. Not by RAI, sure, but my point is it is impossible to damage any D&D game so long as the DM knows what they're doing.
My Works
My House Rules Cryptic Commander: a Tiefling Wizard|Warlord - Arcane Wayfarer - Planeshaper that focuses on controlling every creature in an encounter. Feyknight: A Half-Elf Knight - Gladiator Champion - Marshall of Letherna build that uses Eldritch Strike and the White Lotus Riposte feats to create a decent catch-22 with his mark aura. Novamancer: a Wizard/Swordmage - Malec-Keth Janissary - Radiant One that specializes in area damage, somewhat item dependent but is capable of massive damage. the Epic Crit-Fisher: Avenger/Ranger-PMC-Eternal Seeker with a 2,560 damage crit-fishing nova. Eldritch Slayer: A Slayer - Kulkor - Destined Scion that uses a similar trick to the Knight, combined with Kulkor for some decent DPR. Polearm Seeker|Fighter: A Seeker|Fighter/Psion - Kensei - Destined Scion build that uses Polearm Momentum to not be super bad. Generic Runepriest: A generic type Runepriest/Fighter - Hammer of Vengeance - Destined Scion
One does not
111819409 wrote:
99856009 wrote:
by RAW, you can't horse into the forge of the dawn titan.




...Couldn't resist.


But the rules /are/ downright silly. Proning a prone is no less silly than proning an ooze or a snake. Nor is making a static dmg somehow a roll any more silly or legaleze trickery that let's things like arena training poach staff expertise or revenants being better when dying. It isn't hard to see that such shenanigans were not RAI and can easily break a game. But the problem is that the system is inherently flawed and patched. I would rather to know it is legal so I can anticipate similiar future problems. I also wouldn't mind seeing a table of such abuses at a wotc function so they can finally see just how silly they have made things.
RAW is RAW. Point out issues with balance and intent so that players and dms will be aware of issues if the bring it to the table, but leave it at that.
But the rules /are/ downright silly. Proning a prone is no less silly than proning an ooze or a snake. Nor is making a static dmg somehow a roll any more silly or legaleze trickery that let's things like arena training poach staff expertise or revenants being better when dying. It isn't hard to see that such shenanigans were not RAI and can easily break a game. But the problem is that the system is inherently flawed and patched. I would rather to know it is legal so I can anticipate similiar future problems. I also wouldn't mind seeing a table of such abuses at a wotc function so they can finally see just how silly they have made things. RAW is RAW. Point out issues with balance and intent so that players and dms will be aware of issues if the bring it to the table, but leave it at that.



But it gains a roll via PP/weapon etc. There's no legaleze trickery. The same goes for your other examples. They all been thoroughly discussed and clearly work fine by RAW. Sure the only one that works by RAI is Revenant silliness because they are basically zombies anyway. Maybe certain people have taken Revenant op a bit farther than WotC meant when they printed Revenant stuff, but letting Revenants function while down was more than likely a planned option.

See my above post for my opinion on things that "break the game."
My Works
My House Rules Cryptic Commander: a Tiefling Wizard|Warlord - Arcane Wayfarer - Planeshaper that focuses on controlling every creature in an encounter. Feyknight: A Half-Elf Knight - Gladiator Champion - Marshall of Letherna build that uses Eldritch Strike and the White Lotus Riposte feats to create a decent catch-22 with his mark aura. Novamancer: a Wizard/Swordmage - Malec-Keth Janissary - Radiant One that specializes in area damage, somewhat item dependent but is capable of massive damage. the Epic Crit-Fisher: Avenger/Ranger-PMC-Eternal Seeker with a 2,560 damage crit-fishing nova. Eldritch Slayer: A Slayer - Kulkor - Destined Scion that uses a similar trick to the Knight, combined with Kulkor for some decent DPR. Polearm Seeker|Fighter: A Seeker|Fighter/Psion - Kensei - Destined Scion build that uses Polearm Momentum to not be super bad. Generic Runepriest: A generic type Runepriest/Fighter - Hammer of Vengeance - Destined Scion
One does not
111819409 wrote:
99856009 wrote:
by RAW, you can't horse into the forge of the dawn titan.




...Couldn't resist.


Haha. I was actually defending the RAW position there because as it has been noted, we need an authoritative standard to refer to. I don't believe sub-zero revenants were meant to get extra minors, but that is neither her nor there.
And much as you mentioned, as a dm I like to know about this stuff so if something similiar happens I can anticipate it and handle it with grace vice a kneejerk reaction and a simple "no."
Haha. I was actually defending the RAW position there because as it has been noted, we need an authoritative standard to refer to. I don't believe sub-zero revenants were meant to get extra minors, but that is neither her nor there. And much as you mentioned, as a dm I like to know about this stuff so if something similiar happens I can anticipate it and handle it with grace vice a kneejerk reaction and a simple "no."


It gladdens me to see a DM of the maturity to not do things like that. Also, I agree with you about the Revenants, I was more referencing their surgeless healing and the Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness.
My Works
My House Rules Cryptic Commander: a Tiefling Wizard|Warlord - Arcane Wayfarer - Planeshaper that focuses on controlling every creature in an encounter. Feyknight: A Half-Elf Knight - Gladiator Champion - Marshall of Letherna build that uses Eldritch Strike and the White Lotus Riposte feats to create a decent catch-22 with his mark aura. Novamancer: a Wizard/Swordmage - Malec-Keth Janissary - Radiant One that specializes in area damage, somewhat item dependent but is capable of massive damage. the Epic Crit-Fisher: Avenger/Ranger-PMC-Eternal Seeker with a 2,560 damage crit-fishing nova. Eldritch Slayer: A Slayer - Kulkor - Destined Scion that uses a similar trick to the Knight, combined with Kulkor for some decent DPR. Polearm Seeker|Fighter: A Seeker|Fighter/Psion - Kensei - Destined Scion build that uses Polearm Momentum to not be super bad. Generic Runepriest: A generic type Runepriest/Fighter - Hammer of Vengeance - Destined Scion
One does not
111819409 wrote:
99856009 wrote:
by RAW, you can't horse into the forge of the dawn titan.




...Couldn't resist.



And yes, "you're doing it wrong" is an acceptable response to this, to the point of saying that Alcestis shouldn't allow this as DM in a local game.  Being able to compensate via other DM techniques is irrelevant, the damage is still done.



I feel like sometimes people on these boards really underestimate the power of the DM. There is literally nothing a player can do that can't be reconciled by a skillful DM in such a way as to keep the game healthy and fun, and to be honest that's his/her job.


And the logical result of this thinking is that D&D rules shouldn't be published, because the DM can just do it.

One of the major, major benefits of the focus on balance in the 4e ruleset is it is no longer reliant on a DM to adjust the experience on the fly.  Not only are many people simply not good enough at DMing to be able to pull that off, many DMs just simply don't care as much about balance.  Now less skilled people can play with a balanced, enjoyable-for-everyone experience without nearly as much pointless effort.  I'm fully aware the DM can adjust things to compensate.  But my point is that the DM shouldn't have to.

Accepting flaws in the system because "well the DM can fix it" undermines this entire premise, and is damaging for the game as a whole.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

And yes, "you're doing it wrong" is an acceptable response to this, to the point of saying that Alcestis shouldn't allow this as DM in a local game.  Being able to compensate via other DM techniques is irrelevant, the damage is still done.



I feel like sometimes people on these boards really underestimate the power of the DM. There is literally nothing a player can do that can't be reconciled by a skillful DM in such a way as to keep the game healthy and fun, and to be honest that's his/her job.


And the logical result of this thinking is that D&D rules shouldn't be published, because the DM can just do it.


In what way is that the logical result? The DM has these powers because of the rules that give them to him. I also didn't say that the DM had to houserule anything in the above post, which seems to be what you are implying. I was referring more to creative encounter design and other methods of overcoming game-breaking elements. Sometimes houserules become necessary but, again, the DM's ability to make houserules is included in the D&D rulebooks. Anyway, the only houserules I generally make either make the players stronger/cooler, or make my monsters more entertaining to fight.
My Works
My House Rules Cryptic Commander: a Tiefling Wizard|Warlord - Arcane Wayfarer - Planeshaper that focuses on controlling every creature in an encounter. Feyknight: A Half-Elf Knight - Gladiator Champion - Marshall of Letherna build that uses Eldritch Strike and the White Lotus Riposte feats to create a decent catch-22 with his mark aura. Novamancer: a Wizard/Swordmage - Malec-Keth Janissary - Radiant One that specializes in area damage, somewhat item dependent but is capable of massive damage. the Epic Crit-Fisher: Avenger/Ranger-PMC-Eternal Seeker with a 2,560 damage crit-fishing nova. Eldritch Slayer: A Slayer - Kulkor - Destined Scion that uses a similar trick to the Knight, combined with Kulkor for some decent DPR. Polearm Seeker|Fighter: A Seeker|Fighter/Psion - Kensei - Destined Scion build that uses Polearm Momentum to not be super bad. Generic Runepriest: A generic type Runepriest/Fighter - Hammer of Vengeance - Destined Scion
One does not
111819409 wrote:
99856009 wrote:
by RAW, you can't horse into the forge of the dawn titan.




...Couldn't resist.


Refer to my edit.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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