Phantasmal Image and Inkmoth Nexus

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So my question is: What happens when Phantasmal Image copies an animated Inkmoth Nexus?

I know Phantasmal Image will enter the battlefield as a land (the printed text on Inkmoth Nexus is a land) but will have "When this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, sacrifice it" just as tag along text?

I mean, as a land it doesn't matter (When this creature) but if I animate the copy of Inkmoth it's then a creature and it should matter... right?
or beacuse it's not a creature when it enters the battlefield it can't be an illusion or gain the text?
Yes, it will have the extra text, and you are incorrect in your assumption that that doesn't matter when it isn't animated. Animated or not, it will be destroyed as a triggered ability any time it becomes a target; text such as "this creature" really means "this object (which by the way, will normally be a creature, but it doesn't matter if it somehow isn't)".

It won't be an illusion, though.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
It won't be an illusion, though.

would it become an illusion when you activate the animation ability?

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It won't be an illusion, though.

would it become an illusion when you activate the animation ability?




Phantasman Image
Inkmoth Nexus


isn't the Phantasmal Image copy's type line "Land - Illusion" ; then when it's animated, it becomes "Land Creature - Artifact Illusion Blinkmoth"?


M:tG Rules Adviser
It won't be an illusion, though.

would it become an illusion when you activate the animation ability?




Phantasman Image
Inkmoth Nexus


isn't the Phantasmal Image copy's type line "Land - Illusion" ; then when it's animated, it becomes "Land Creature - Artifact Illusion Blinkmoth"?




Illusion is not a Land type, so when not animated it will not have the Illusion type.  However, when the copied Nexus animates, it will be an Artifact Creature Land - Blinkmoth Illusion

Also note that Artifact is not a creature type, it's a card type. 
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It won't be an illusion, though.

would it become an illusion when you activate the animation ability?




Phantasman Image
Inkmoth Nexus


isn't the Phantasmal Image copy's type line "Land - Illusion" ; then when it's animated, it becomes "Land Creature - Artifact Illusion Blinkmoth"?



No. A non-creature land cannot have a creature type unless it is a Tribal Land. Its animation ability doesn't add the illusion type, so it will not have it then, either.

Currently trying to track down the rule that says this.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

It won't be an illusion, though.

would it become an illusion when you activate the animation ability?




Phantasman Image
Inkmoth Nexus


isn't the Phantasmal Image copy's type line "Land - Illusion" ; then when it's animated, it becomes "Land Creature - Artifact Illusion Blinkmoth"?



No. A non-creature land cannot have a creature type unless it is a Tribal Land. Its animation ability doesn't add the illusion type, so it will not have it then, either.

Currently trying to track down the rule that says this.


The Phantasmal Image adds the Illusion type, not the animate ability of the Nexus.  When animated it will also be an Illusion.

204.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the objectretains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types,supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in additionto its types” or that state that something is “still a [type, supertype, or subtype].” Some effectsstate that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain allof its prior card types and subtypes. 
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The problem is that the copy effect applies the subtype in layer 1 and according to rule 204.1a is essentially dependent on the object being a creature, which it can't possibly be until layer 4 effects are applied unless its base type is creature or a copy effect makes it a creature.

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204.1a Some effects set an object’s card type. In such cases, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types. Counters, effects, and damage marked on the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new card type. Similarly, when an effect sets one or more of an object’s subtypes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). If an object’s card type is removed, the subtypes correlated with that card type will remain if they are also the subtypes of a card type the object currently has; otherwise, they are also removed for the entire time the object’s card type is removed. Removing an object’s subtype doesn’t affect its card types at all.


Phantasmal Image doesn't set the type.  It says "in addition to its other types", therefore rule 204.1b applies.
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Hmm... I could have sworn there was a rule somewhere that said that noncreature, nontribal permanents can't have creature types (thus neccesitating the tribal type in the first place). I cannot now find this rule.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

That doesn't help though because the application of "It's an illusion and retains any types" is being applied in Layer 1, not Layer 4.
706.8c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.



Applied strictly, it shouldn't be an illusion.

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@2goth4U and dlthe
No-

A land cannot have a creature type unless it is a creature and a creature cannot have a land type unless it is a land (Ex. [C]Chameleon Colossus[/C] is not a [C=Cloudpost]Locus[/C] (rule  204.1a)

But that's not what this tread is about.

Does the text stick around as (mostly) useless rider text?

I think jeff-heikkinenis wrong (sorry if I offend you) mainly because he said "'"this creature" really means 'this object (which by the way, will normally be a creature, but it doesn't matter if it somehow isn't)'"."' That'd be like saying that doom blade can hit unanimated man-lands or a licid that gets changed into an enchantment (well it can sometimes be a creature...)

OK I'm convinced that the copy is NOT an illusion when it is a non-creature land.


however Sllverskyz, 2goth's question IS relevant - whether or not the copy has the illusion subtype when it is animated and becomes a creature is important for, say, Lord of the Unreal.


Getting 2 poison counters instead of 1 is a big deal, as is whether or not that flying artifact creature can be targeted with Doom blade...
M:tG Rules Adviser

@2goth4U and dlthe
No-

A land cannot have a creature type unless it is a creature and a creature cannot have a land type unless it is a land (Ex. [C]Chameleon Colossus[/C] is not a [C=Cloudpost]Locus[/C] (rule  204.1a)

But that's not what this tread is about.

Does the text stick around as (mostly) useless rider text?

I think jeff-heikkinenis wrong (sorry if I offend you) mainly because he said "'"this creature" really means 'this object (which by the way, will normally be a creature, but it doesn't matter if it somehow isn't)'"."' That'd be like saying that doom blade can hit unanimated man-lands or a licid that gets changed into an enchantment (well it can sometimes be a creature...)



He's right.  "this creature" really means "this object".

201.5. If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as “this [something]” to identify an object, where[something] is a characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn’t the appropriatecharacteristic at the time.

Example: An ability reads “Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Destroy thatcreature at the beginning of the next end step.” The ability will destroy the object it gave+2/+2 to even if that object isn’t a creature at the beginning of the next end step. 
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204.1a insinuates that an object can't have a subtype of a type that it doesn't have.

204.1b is relevant as well when it says that it retains all prior subtypes, though taken literally seems to imply that a basic land - forest illusion can exist (Phantasmal Image copies a Zendikon enchanted forest) which seems very odd

Though... 204.1a also seems to imply that if the type returns that the subtype also returns.
(which lines up with the situation in the following post)

I'd be inclined to say that it will be an illusion, but an [O] ruling would still be nice.

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OK I'm convinced that the copy is NOT an illusion when it is a non-creature land.


however Sllverskyz, 2goth's question IS relevant - whether or not the copy has the illusion subtype when it is animated and becomes a creature is important for, say, Lord of the Unreal.


Getting 2 poison counters instead of 1 is a big deal, as is whether or not that flying artifact creature can be targeted with Doom blade...


There was a recent thread with an Innistrad spoiled card that turned a target creature into a Vampire.  Someone was asking what if that card hit an animated Gideon Jura, would Gideon still be a Vampire when it animated again.  It was determined that Giddy would still be a vamp when animated next.  I'm pretty sure there were rules quotes to support this.

EDIT: Here's the thread.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
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I guess I need to submit a bug for MTGO then, because it does not retain that ability when copying an animted [C=Inkmoth Nexus]Nexus[/C] online...

or you guys are wrong...

hmm....

(just so you know, I think you guys are right, but I thought I might have been missing something myself)

I think jeff-heikkinenis wrong (sorry if I offend you) mainly because he said "'"this creature" really means 'this object (which by the way, will normally be a creature, but it doesn't matter if it somehow isn't)'"."' That'd be like saying that doom blade can hit unanimated man-lands or a licid that gets changed into an enchantment (well it can sometimes be a creature...)


No, it's not the slightest bit like saying that, because the latter concerns targeting requirements, which have their own (completely different) rules.

EDIT: Let me add, though, that there is absolutely no problem with correcting or questioning people here. I certainly wouldn't call anything in your post "offensive".


Nothing I say here is meant in such a way either, the only people here I actually lose my cool with (and they're rare) are ones that carry on being argumentative after being repeatedly corrected. Having said that, I don't generally sugar-coat things either and I am aware that some people are put off by that. (Happily for all concerned, they don't seem to come to RQ&A much, being straightforward seems to work well here.)

Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
I guess I need to submit a bug for MTGO then, because it does not retain that ability when copying an animted [C=Inkmoth Nexus]Nexus[/C] online...

or you guys are wrong...

hmm....

(just so you know, I think you guys are right, but I thought I might have been missing something myself)



wouldn't be the first time something in MTGO was incorrect. Most of the time it is good but occasionally something has been implemented incorrectly.
M:tG Rules Adviser
If you use the Phantasmal Image and copy an animated Nexus, it will not be an Illusion, even if you animate it. In layer 1, the Image Nexus applies all of its copy effects, and it wants to make itself into an Illusion, but it can't, because it's not a creature. Later, in Layer 4, it makes itself into a creature, but at this point, nothing is telling it to become an Illusion, so it won't (you don't go back and apply effects from Layer 1 again).

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

guess that also disables its sac ability, correct?
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guess that also disables its sac ability, correct?


I don't believe so.

The sacrifice ability isn't dependant on the Phantasmal-Inkmoth being an illusion, and as was highlighted earlier when it refers to "this creature" it means "this object".
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guess that also disables its sac ability, correct?


It does not. It will still have the sac ability.

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

If you use the Phantasmal Image and copy an animated Nexus, it will not be an Illusion, even if you animate it. In layer 1, the Image Nexus applies all of its copy effects, and it wants to make itself into an Illusion, but it can't, because it's not a creature. Later, in Layer 4, it makes itself into a creature, but at this point, nothing is telling it to become an Illusion, so it won't (you don't go back and apply effects from Layer 1 again).



Question about how Nexus is different from this:
Innistrad spoiler
I referenced a thread in an earlier post:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

One of the new cards has:
: Olivia Voldaren deals 1 damage to another target creature. That creature becomes a Vampire in addition to its other types.

People in that thread were saying (and I agree) that if Olivia hit an animated Gideon Jura with that ability, the next time Gideon animated, he would still be a vampire because Olivia does not specify a time limit, such as "until end of turn".  But he wouldn't be one when not animated because he normally doesn't have the Creature/Tribal type.


1) Is that correct?
2) If so, then the reason Gideon keeps the vampire type but Nexus does not keep the Illusion type is because Nexus's Illusion type is being applied in Layer 1 because it's coming from a copy effect.  Whereas Gideon keeps the vampire type because Olivia's effect is being applied in Layer 4.  Correct?


Also, Why is the Illusion not considered a type changing effect and thus applied in Layer 4?
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Also, Why is the Illusion not considered a type changing effect and thus applied in Layer 4?



Because it is applied in Layer one.

Obtaining the additional Illusion subtype is part of the copy effect:

«...as a copy of any creature on the battlefield, except it's an Illusion in addition to its other types and...»    

It is covered by:

706.8c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.
    

Since it part of the copy effect, it is applied in Layer one.





Oddly, copy effects appear to trump many rules, including this one:

613.5. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones...      



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Also, Why is the Illusion not considered a type changing effect and thus applied in Layer 4?



Because it is applied in Layer one.

Obtaining the additional Illusion subtype is part of the copy effect:

«...as a copy of any creature on the battlefield, except it's an Illusion in addition to its other types and...»    

It is covered by:

706.8c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.
    

Since it part of the copy effect, it is applied in Layer one.

706.8c is talking about the final "copiable values" for the object.  Basically saying that if a Clone were to copy the Phantasmal Image Nexus, it would also copy anthing the Phantasmal Image applied.  See the example they give just after that rule:

Example: Quirion Elves enters the battlefield and an Unstable Shapeshifter copies it.The copiable values of the Shapeshifter now match those of the Elves, except that theShapeshifter also has the ability “Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, UnstableShapeshifter becomes a copy of that creature and gains this ability.” Then a Cloneenters the battlefield as a copy of the Unstable Shapeshifter. The Clone copies the newcopiable values of the Shapeshifter, including the ability that the Shapeshifter gave itselfwhen it copied the Elves.


Oddly, copy effects appear to trump many rules, including this one:

613.5. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones...      


That rule is exactly why I don't understand why Phantasmal Images Illusion part is not being applied in Layer 4.

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Clone entering the Field is a copy effect.

It copies...

-Text (Layer 3)
-Type (Layer 4)
-Color (Layer 5)
-Abilities (Layer 6)
-P/T (Layer 7)


But the game doesn't care; the copy effect is entirely applied in Layer one.

         

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706.8c is talking about the final "copiable values" for the object.  Basically saying that if a Clone were to copy the Phantasmal Image Nexus, it would also copy anthing the Phantasmal Image applied.



You misunderstood my intent.


...Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process...
     
I was trying to explain why «adding the Illusion subtype» is treated as part of the copy effect (Layer 1)
and is not treated as a type-changing effect per se (Layer 4).



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Clone entering the Field is a copy effect.

It copies...

-Text (Layer 3)
-Type (Layer 4)
-Color (Layer 5)
-Abilities (Layer 6)
-P/T (Layer 7)


But the game doesn't care; the copy effect is entirely applied in Layer one.

         


That may be true in the case of Clone since the entire ability of clone is a copy effect.  But now look at Phantasmal Image, it's not all one big ability, it has separate parts to it.  According to 613.5 the Illusion granting part of Phantasmal Image should be applied in Layer 4.  Look at the examples.  Each example has effects that apply in different layers...just like Phantasmal Image.  Phantasmal Image should be no different...it appies a copy effect in Layer 1, the sac ability gets applied in Layer 6, so then the Illusion granting effect should be applied in Layer 4.

613.5. If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect eachapply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it willcontinue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, evenif the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
Examples given in CR
Example: An effect that reads “Wild Mongrel gets +1/+1 and becomes the color of yourchoice until end of turn” is both a power- and toughness-changing effect and a colorchangingeffect. The “becomes the color of your choice” part is applied in layer 5, and thenthe “gets +1/+1” part is applied in layer 7.

Example: Grab the Reins has an effect that reads “Until end of turn, you gain control oftarget creature and it gains haste.” This is both a control-changing effect and an effect thatadds an ability to an object. The “you gain control” part is applied in layer 2, and then the“it gains haste” part is applied in layer 6.

Example: An effect that reads “All noncreature artifacts become 2/2 artifact creatures untilend of turn” is both a type-changing effect and a power- and toughness-setting effect. Thetype-changing effect is applied to all noncreature artifacts in layer 4 and the power- andtoughness-setting effect is applied to those same permanents in layer 7, even though thosepermanents aren’t noncreature artifacts by then.

Example: Svogthos, the Restless Tomb, is on the battlefield. An effect that says “Until end ofturn, target land becomes a 3/3 creature that’s still a land” is applied to it (layers 4 and 7b).An effect that says “Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn” is applied to it (layer 7c),making it a 4/4 land creature. Then while you have ten creature cards in your graveyard,you activate Svogthos’s ability: “Until end of turn, Svogthos, the Restless Tomb becomes ablack and green Plant Zombie creature with ‘This creature’s power and toughness are eachequal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard.’ It’s still a land.” (layers 4, 5, and7b). It becomes an 11/11 land creature. If a creature card enters or leaves your graveyard,Svogthos’s power and toughness will be modified accordingly. If the first effect is applied toit again, it will become a 4/4 land creature again.


So, I'd still like to know why Phantasmal Image's Illusion granting effect is being applied in Layer 1?
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I guess I answered this one minute (maybe less!) before you asked!

Check my most recent post.
(Well, the most recent before this very one here...) 

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That may be true in the case of Clone since the entire ability of clone is a copy effect.  But now look at Phantasmal Image, it's not all one big ability, it has separate parts to it.  

...

So, I'd still like to know why Phantasmal Image's Illusion granting effect is being applied in Layer 1?

Because it is in fact, all one big ability. Multiple non-keyword abilities are broken up in seperate paragraphs on cards.

In fact, the whole ability is one sentence.

All Generalizations are Bad
706.8c is talking about the final "copiable values" for the object.  Basically saying that if a Clone were to copy the Phantasmal Image Nexus, it would also copy anthing the Phantasmal Image applied.



You misunderstood my intent.


...Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process...
     
I was trying to explain why «adding the Illusion subtype» is treated as part of the copy effect (Layer 1)
and is not treated as a type-changing effect per se (Layer 4).





Hmmmm....ok, I see what your getting at now, yes I misunderstood you before.  I can understand that reasoning, but I'm not 100% convinced it's right.
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But now look at Phantasmal Image , it's not all one big ability, it has separate parts to it.

Actually, it is all one big ability. Notice that there are no line breaks or periods*.
According to 613.5 the Illusion granting part of Phantasmal Image should be applied in Layer 4.

613.5 only applies if the effect applies in multiple layers, but the rules for copy effects make quite clear that the "it's an illusion" and "it gains [ability]" are part of the copy effect:
706.8. Copy effects may include modifications or exceptions to the copying process.


Note that the above rule says that the modifications/exceptions are included in the copy effect. They are not separate from the copy effect. The rules then go on to describe what kinds of modification and exceptions exist. The following rule covers the "it gains [ability]" modification of the copy effect.
706.8a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied.

And the following rule covers the "it's an illusion" modification.
706.8c Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final value(s) for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values for the copy.
Example: Copy Artifact is an enchantment that reads, "You may have Copy Artifact enter the battlefield as a copy of any artifact on the battlefield, except it's an enchantment in addition to its other types." It enters the battlefield as a copy of Juggernaut. The copiable values of the Copy Artifact now match those of Juggernaut with one modification: its types are now artifact, creature, and enchantment.


*periods don't always indicate a new ability, but they sometimes do. Linebreaks always indicate a new ability
The copyable values are essentially determined in Layer 1. They determine the base object's characteristics before all other changes are applied.

The fact that it's one big ability is only important insofar as that it's all a copy effect therefore applied in layer 1.

The animation ability of Inkmoth Nexus has a sentence that has effects that apply in different layers.

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I think what I kept missing when reading those rules was "...as part of the copying process".  I was focusing on the parts after that where it talked about the final copiable values.

Ok, I conceed.  It's ALL applied in Layer 1. 
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