Hybrid Classes that Actually WORK

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Gamers!

A buddy of mine proposed we do a one nighter campaign using all Hybrid class characters just to see how/if they work. We will probably write a blog on what ones work/don't work. I created a level 6 Bard/Sorcerer hybrid. I chose those two because they both have CHA as their primary ability, but use it to do different things. I think that was one of the problems I had with hybrid classes in the beginning -- unless you had two classes that HAPPEN to line up (as far as their key ability goes), you would end up shortchanging one half of your hybrid class...

So, my question is: if there is anyone out there who really messes around a lot with hybrid classes -- what are the GOOD ones?

Thanks people!

Bruce
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Cleric's hybrid real well because they get to keep battle cleric's lore and everything they lose is pretty vanilla.  Because of the minor action heals, they can even work as a primary leader.

Hybrid warlords are also awesome.  They can blend with any class, because even without any str, the hybrid can take all enabling powers and still be effective.

Hybrid vampires lose basically nothing and gain basically everything through hybriding.


Dual primary stats isn't all that bad so long as the race gets bumps in both and the player isn't too concerned with powers not getting a huge bump from riders.  I think the bigger issue is a matter of having a decent AC.  Almost all hybrids are going to have to spend at least 1 feat on having an AC that isn't an auto-hit. 

 Melee classes occasionally have AC issues unless their two classes have similar armor proficiencies, but most of the ranged and/or spellcasting classes don't have that issue.
Generally, a hybrid built with classes from two different roles needs to be built to favor one role heavily over the other in order to be effective. For example, a fighter|ranger (a combo that works extremely well) needs to be built as either a striker (who will be slightly tougher than average) or as a defender (who will be slightly less sticky but do fairly good damage). Rather than performing both roles at the same time or carrying on with one role thoughout the fight, hybrids tend to do one role for awhile and then the other role for awhile.
For the most part, a character has to be built with a specific mechanical purpose in mind in order to hybrid effectively.

 These are some of the more common hybrids I've heard of on these boards:

fighter|rogue  (big charging builds)
fighter|ranger  (especially a tempest fighter|ranger with the shock trooper PP)
fighter|warden  (incredibly sticky)
battlemind|any other defender
monk|any other implement-using class with compatable stats
swordmage|warlock  (crazy teleporting, the basis for the arcane slasher builds before they were nerfed)
swordmage|wizard
barbarian|sorceror
seeker|ranger
seeker|hunter
barbarian|druid
paladin|warlock (the basic of most melee warlocks)
paladin|sorceror
druid|warden
wizard|damn near anything with matching stats (wizards lose almost nothing important by hybriding)

 As The_Warren said, vampires are only made better by hybriding (some would say that's the only way they work at all). Bards are kind of iffy, but there are some situational cases where they can hybrid effectively.
 
 I'd suggest posting about this on the Char Op board for a list of the best recommendations - they can tell you exactly what works and what doesn't.

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I like bard/lazylord right now.  Have Cha/Int roughly equal and a decent Con.  Armors match up fairly well, still have 2/encounter heals, and your NAD are decent.


Just take immediates or granting attacks like Direct the Strike and it works nice.  Of course you need allies with decent basic attacks.


At 11th level there is a good paragon path that I forget the name of that lets you use martial keyword powers off your CHA.  Then you can retrain for almost any warlord power you want.     

Of the hybrids I've seen in play, my favorites have been:

Warden|Rogue -- Riposte Strike is pretty sweet when you can mark as a warden; hit points line up nicely, and melee rogues can really use the extra toughness.
Swordmage|Wizard -- neither lose anything important, and both are very good classes.
Paladin|Invoker -- just much better than you'd ever think; invoker powers really don't have great off-stat riders, and are just much stronger than paladin ones. Some melee capacity is also quite helpful!
Warden|Warlock -- 20 CON, a mark, Rebuke, and Warden's Armored Might is the core of a very strong build.  Just remember not to count on warden powers.
Bard|Ardent -- god-generators of temporary hit points for their friends; and ardents have no class features they will ever miss

The other ones I've seen, I've generally thought of as being a bit weaker than standard classes.  I suspect strength-clerics also make great hybrids, though.

I've had a lot of fun with my halfling ardent|rogue.  He's primarily a striker with some healing.  If you make Dex primary with Cha secondary and Wis tertiary, you become really good at avoiding OAs.  You want to pick up Mantle of Clarity and Hybrid Talent (Artful Dodger) as soon as possible.  Then take versatile duelist + heavy blade expertise. 

(At level 11 he has a 27 AC, but 41 against OAs).

Note:  This character was designed with the idea that he got his psionic powers by being kidnapped by mindflayers and implanted with an illithid tadpole.  So Foulborn Heritage and Aberrant Sight are flavor, in no way necessary for the build.

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Redeye, level 11
Halfling, Ardent/Rogue, Phrenic Invader
Ardent Mantle (Hybrid) Option: Mantle of Clarity (Hybrid)
Hybrid Ardent Option: Hybrid Ardent Will
Hybrid Talent Option: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid) Option: Artful Dodger (Hybrid)
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Encounter Power
Sewer Wretch (+2 to Dungeoneering)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 9, CON 14, DEX 21, INT 11, WIS 16, CHA 18
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 13, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 13
 
 
AC: 27 Fort: 19 Ref: 25 Will: 22
HP: 76 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 19
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +18, Intimidate +14, Perception +13, Stealth +15, Thievery +17
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +5, Athletics +4, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +7, Heal +8, History +5, Insight +8, Nature +8, Religion +5, Streetwise +9
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Halfling Racial Power: Second Chance
Ardent Feature: Ardent Surge
Feat Utility: Unbalanced Mind
Rogue Attack 1: Opening Move
Ardent Attack 1: Energizing Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Disheartening Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Hounding Assault
Rogue Utility 2: Fleeting Ghost
Ardent Attack 5: Invitation to Defeat
Ardent Utility 6: Painful Revelations
Rogue Attack 7: Lashing Blade
Rogue Attack 9: Profit from Weakness
Rogue Utility 10: Daring Gamble
Phrenic Invader Attack 11: Phrenic Strike
 
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Foulborn Heritage
Level 4: Versatile Duelist
Level 6: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Parrying dagger)
Level 10: Weapon Proficiency (Drow long knife)
Level 11: Aberrant Sight
 
ITEMS
Sacrificial Drow long knife +3 x1
Rhythm Blade Parrying dagger +1 x1
Bracers of Enforced Regret (heroic tier) x1
Acrobat Boots (heroic tier) x1
Moradin's Blessing of Iron (level 3)
Warding Mind (heroic tier)
Baffling Cape +2 x1
Slick Drowmesh +3 x1
====== End ======
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I played a Artificer/Swordmage, it worked pretty well. Using the protective swordmage and picking up powers that can apply Aegis to multiple enemies, preventing a lot of damage, healing off the rest, and also throwing out some attack bonusses and other buffs.
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I suggest wandering around in this here....

 community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Warlords can almost hybrid with anything .... worst case scenario...  by going lazy  (which might not be the style you want)

My favorite current flavor of hybrid is a Sorceror/Barbarian... its yummy.  
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
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Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Hybrids really for the most part are about on the same level as regular classes. There's 4 important considerations:
How do you plan to have valid defenses, particularly AC? Many mixes end up with horrible defenses or defenses not suited to the role. Many of these builds are assuming they're spending their hybrid talent feat at 1st level.

Stats. What do you need in your primary class to feel as if you're hitting enough? If it is a 20, you need a 20 in both primary stats. If it is an 18, then you need 18s. Secondary/Tertiary stats can be ignored for the most part unless it is a very critical one, such as Sorcerer using their secondary stat for damage bonus. Then the other class needs to use either the primary or secondary stat as their primary one.

Are you focusing on doing one role really well or two roles well enough that no one cares that you aren't the traditional single role? What happens if your party needs you to be role X? Watch out for hybrids that are all or nothing in terms of their effectiveness - a Fighter|X who has Kirre's Roar and MC's into Warden is unbelievably stronger than a Fighter|X who can't mark except by using a Fighter attack power - the 2nd one in a party that needs the Fighter|X to be a Defender is going to have a character that is likely strictly inferior to just playing a Fighter. The 1st one will be able to perform both roles for 2-3 rounds every combat.

Let people know what role you think you fill. If you don't think of your Fighter|Cleric as a leader because he only heals himself period, don't describe yourself in any way as being a Leader. The biggest problem that hybrids have is not their effectiveness, but rather the assumptions made by either you or your group. Having a single encounter heal is not a Leader. 
Anything|Warlord definitely works.  I have a Shaman|Warlord who I have played from level 1 to level 11 in LFR.  Definitely needs to have at least one ally with a decent BA since all she does is hand out attacks.  Best to have multiple allies with decent BAs due to the free action attack limits.

Also, I have seen played Artificer|Warlock, Ardent|Battlemind, Monk|Sorcerer, Rogue|Sorcerer.  
Hmm . . . Not sure if this is the best for optimization, but the most fun I've had playing DnD is with a Avenger | Monk. The mobility is through the roof -- there wasn't a turn in which I didn't teleport or shift multiple squares (playing at levels 13-15). When it came to dealing damage, it was really flexible. I could use OOE when isolated with a single enemy, and was able to take care of crowds with Flurry of Blows.

I have also played a Battlemind | Ardent. The Ardent and Battlemind give up almost nothing important with hybriding, the psionics match up, and the ability scores mesh perfectly together.

Also, for the Barbarian | Sorceror, how do the implements work out? Do you just have to resort to carrying two magic weapons?

Your friendly neighborhood Revenant Minotaur Half-Blooded Dragonborn Fighter Hybrid Barbarian Multiclassing into Warlord

IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1223957875/Scorecards/Landscape.png)

Wizard is one of the classes that loses the least by being in a hybrid. The combination still must be Int-primary or Int-secondary, and there's a good chance the Hybrid Talent will go toward boosting AC (which might be true anyway depending on what the other class is), but aside from that Hybrid Wizard doesn't cost much.

Several people have commented that Warlord hybrids with practically anything. All non-lazy Warlords are Str-primary but they can be Int-, Cha-, or Wis-secondary. Lazylords don't really have a primary stat; they are at their best Int-secondary but can also be good when Cha- or Wis-secondary.

Fighter-Ranger rocks because the classes are really pretty similar anyway. The combo works great as Str/Wis defender (buy some AC) or Str/Dex striker. There really isn't much different between Fighter Weapon Talents and Ranger Fighting Styles (other than Beastmaster, which is weak normally and worse in the hybrid version); giving up one for the other is not a loss. 

Thinking about the Fighter-Ranger combo might help find other great combos. At the moment I'm contemplating the similarities and synergies between Skirmishing Warlord and Clever Bard... 
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I'm in favour of introducing a series of hybrid only feats that plug the gaps of the incompatible combinations.  Yes they would be feat taxes but feat taxes are better than no options at all.

Options could be armour feats with gravy for certain combinations to free up hybrid talent for something nice.  A feat that grants an untyped bonus to hit (e.g. +1 to attack rolls if the attack stat is 15 or less at heroic, +2 if attack stat is 17 or less ar paragon, +3 if attack stat is 19 or less at epic).  A feat that allows you to stack striker features on powers and/or basic attacks once per encounter.  A feat that grants a bonus to a combination's weak defence plus thematic gravy.

Think the playtesters probably already have a good idea where the gaps are.  It's just a question of comic up with the right feats that are limited to certain combinations to avoid wider abuse.
I'm in favour of introducing a series of hybrid only feats that plug the gaps of the incompatible combinations.  Yes they would be feat taxes but feat taxes are better than no options at all.

Options could be armour feats with gravy for certain combinations to free up hybrid talent for something nice.  A feat that grants an untyped bonus to hit (e.g. +1 to attack rolls if the attack stat is 15 or less at heroic, +2 if attack stat is 17 or less ar paragon, +3 if attack stat is 19 or less at epic).  A feat that allows you to stack striker features on powers and/or basic attacks once per encounter.  A feat that grants a bonus to a combination's weak defence plus thematic gravy.

Think the playtesters probably already have a good idea where the gaps are.  It's just a question of comic up with the right feats that are limited to certain combinations to avoid wider abuse.



Except that if they wanted these "gaps" closed, they would have brought this up during playtesting.  I think it is quite likely that the people who make the game are not the same people who play the game.  We, the players, wanted a system to be able to combine two classes.  They gave us Hybriding rules which work but which are ultimately a not-always-optimized option.  I think they did this to dissuade people from using the rules.  If people aren't using the rules, then they don't have to support it.  Heck, even if people *are* using the rules, they don't have to support it.  Just look at the PMC rules.  The last update to those rules was for Psionic Augmentation classes.  None of the MC feats from PHB2 give any benefits for PMCing.  None of the MC feats from PHB3 give any benefits for PMCing.

tl;dr = the designers of the game do not like multiclassing or hybrids and would probably rather people not use those rules.
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of thrashing out the mechanical issues and submitting an article to Dragon.  There's no guarantee that it would ever be published but  it's in their interests to keep the ball bouncing so this kind of content might be of some interest.  I'm a role-player rather than a maths geek or an optimiser but as I say, the playtesters seem aware of the issues.  Putting together a compiled list of possible feat fixes for submission might be a good idea.  Hell I don't mind submitting the article if nobody else can be bothered.  I'm just no good at coming up with the fixes.  Money mouth
Hybrid Armor
Prerequisite: Hybrid class; Hybrid Talent feat
Benefit: Your armor proficiency is now equal to the best armor proficiency of your hybrid base classes.
---
So, if you are a Wizard|Fighter, you now have Fighter armor proficiency.  If you are a Fighter|Paladin, you now have Paladin armor proficiency.  The reason for having the Hybrid Talent feat as a prereq is so the PC can't just use this as a way to avoid spending the Hybrid Talent feat.
---
Hybrid Beastmastery
Prerequisite
: Hybrid Ranger; Hybrid Talent feat; Ranger Beast Mastery (Hybrid)
Benefit: This feat removes the limitations placed on your beast companion by being a hybrid Beastmaster Ranger.
---
Hybrid Mastery
Prerequisite
: 21st level; Hybrid Talent feat
Benefit: You gain one more Hybrid Talent pick.
---
This is an obvious "need".
So what is the issue with beasts, why was it introduced (presumably to avoid stacking issues?), and if you remove it, what abuse does it open up?  If I don't understand the mechanics, I'm inclined to limit such a global feat to the end of your next turn.
I'm in favour of introducing a series of hybrid only feats that plug the gaps of the incompatible combinations.  Yes they would be feat taxes but feat taxes are better than no options at all.

Options could be armour feats with gravy for certain combinations to free up hybrid talent for something nice.

What I want them to do there is take away specified armor proficiency from hybrids and instead say "some-number armor proficiency feats". With a rule that you add the numbers from the two classes together and then round down.

So a Fighter has Scale and Light Shield proficiency - that's 5 Armor Proficiency feats (Leather, Hide, Chain, Scale, Light Shield). Thus, a Hybrid Fighter would get 2.5 Armor Proficiency feats. A Wizard has Cloth proficiency - that's free, no feats, so the Hybrid Wizard gets no Armor Proficiency feats. The total is 2.5, round down to 2; the Fighter|Wizard can take Hide proficiency for free - or choose Leather and Light Shield, or Cloth and Heavy Shield.

These Armor Proficiency feats would, of course, be in addition to the normal feat allocation - and couldn't be used for any other purpose.

 A feat that grants an untyped bonus to hit (e.g. +1 to attack rolls if the attack stat is 15 or less at heroic, +2 if attack stat is 17 or less ar paragon, +3 if attack stat is 19 or less at epic).

I don't think this is enough to make a non-viable build viable, and I don't think we want many feats powerful enough to do so. It's okay for some pairs of classes to simply be too incompatible to make a good hybrid.

A feat that allows you to stack striker features on powers and/or basic attacks once per encounter.

How about to apply the class-restricted feature of one hybrid class (chosen at the time you take the feat) to all powers that are not of the other hybrid class or an associated Paragon Path? Full-time, as a Paragon feat that Paragon Hybrids get for free? Covering basic attacks, racial powers, theme powers, dilettante powers, item powers, feat powers, and anything else I haven't thought of.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I like your ideas, although the armour issue would require a redrafting of the hybrid rules so that isn't something we can fix when thinking about feats.  I like your striker feature feat too but there is no reason why you couldn't have both feats in the arsenal since they do different things.

One person's threshold of what makes a viable combination may not be the same as optimiser and the recent round of playtests demonstrated that classes with 16 in their main attack stat are perfectly playable within the design intent.  Plus, the feat could also be used for incompatible multi-class options too if it's worded carefully.  So I suppose the issue is just would such a feat make such combinations MORE playable even if they still had shortcomings and to what extent would it step on the toes of half-elves who already have some feats that let them do this?
I've been toying with starting a Ranger/Rogue focusing on minor action attacks to deal SA and HQ damage in the same round. Is it worth trying? At level 3 you can deal both two turns in a row. (I was inspired to this by a thread in the striker forum)
I think you peak early in the fight but it does look like a popular combination.  The main issue would be ability score split for melee builds I suppose.
Barbarian/Sorcerer - Gaining your Str mod to your AC as well as your Barbarian Agility is fantastic. Oh, and STR and CHA for your abilities seems to line up well. This was a favorite character of mine.

On top of the pretty respectable damage, you gain Defender AC! Weeeee!

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

I've been toying with starting a Ranger/Rogue focusing on minor action attacks to deal SA and HQ damage in the same round. Is it worth trying? At level 3 you can deal both two turns in a row. (I was inspired to this by a thread in the striker forum)

Yes you can easilly do this, and yes it is worth it.  You tend to have 2-3 rounds of exceptionally high damage this way, before falling back on not so high, but still quite high all the same, per round damage.


Personally - I prefer do do this as a half orc ranger/rogue, with riposte strike and twin strike, plus the minor action attacks, but there are always plenty of options.

While reading this keep in mind that I am not adressing powers/ spells in this post.  It is only dealing with the base features of the classes.

I have seen several options about the various multiclassing and hybrid class options.  I want to build a Avenger/Monk or Monk/Avenger, however you want to look at it.  What I find is disheartening is that in order to have any way to survive long enough to be able to wear clothing armor at lvl 12 is that you have to use three feats.  Is there anyway to keep the unarmored benefits of both classes without gimping along until 12th lvl.  With a combination of the Hybrid Talnet feat (for Armor of faith) and then the feat to expand the armor of faith (I forget the name of it) and then take the Unarmored Defense feat you can simulate a 2nd lvl Avenger or a 1st lvl human Aveger.  This wouldn't be such a major issue if either class could wear armor beyond cloth, or if cloth armors wear available at something below 12th.  However by doing this you completely lose the benfit of the unarmed combat effectivness of the monk which is the bread and butter of the class.  I understand that this may sound like "power gaming" but this is the only way that I have seen to create anything close to a true multiclass.  In previous editions the only hindrance was that the progression rate was slower not completely hamstringing major abilities of both multiclasses at the same time.

Now I enjoy some of the aspects of the newer classes that essntually are hybrid classses of a sort.  Yet none of them are nearly as weak as anything allowable by the hybrid classes.  One of the class combinations that was pointed out in the PHB3 was the Avenger/Monk.  THe only way that I could see this combination being effective as a striker, which both classes are, would to be more like an assassin.  The problem with this is that neither of them get any form of a "backstab". 

I understand that with various powers this can be overcome to a slight degree it would make more sense to create a Monk that multiclasses out to an Avenger.  With this however you get one skill and the Oath of Enmity for one attack, which crripples the effectivness of the Avenger.

Although I could go on and on about this I am asking for help on this from everyone about this.  Please keep in mind I am not worried about the powers I am only concerned with the base features of the two classes.
While reading this keep in mind that I am not adressing powers/ spells in this post.  It is only dealing with the base features of the classes.

I have seen several options about the various multiclassing and hybrid class options.  I want to build a Avenger/Monk or Monk/Avenger, however you want to look at it.  What I find is disheartening is that in order to have any way to survive long enough to be able to wear clothing armor at lvl 12 is that you have to use three feats.  Is there anyway to keep the unarmored benefits of both classes without gimping along until 12th lvl.  With a combination of the Hybrid Talnet feat (for Armor of faith) and then the feat to expand the armor of faith (I forget the name of it) and then take the Unarmored Defense feat you can simulate a 2nd lvl Avenger or a 1st lvl human Aveger. 



I'm not really sure what the problem is here. You would have spent 2 feats for Improved Armor of the Faith and Unarmored Agility Instead, you're spending 3 feats for Hybrid Talent and those two feats. Yes, that's a cost, but on the other hand, you have your choice of an Oath attack or a close burst 1 option depending on how many opponents are nearby you.

Start out with say Elf, 18 Dex/Wis, Hybrid Talent for Armor of Faith, and you're at base AC 17 at 1st. Which is definitely not bad Striker AC. Spend another feat at 2nd for Unarmored Agility and you're base AC 19 by 2nd.

I don't generally think Striker|Striker is a great idea, but Monk and Avenger have decent synergy due to the kind of strikers that they both are - Monk multi-target, Avenger focused on one foe. 
The cost of something fun and unique is high in D&D. If you would like to play something balanced and which you know is powerful, you can play a standard class. Some find enjoyment in this. If you are seeking to play a character that your friends find silly and still is effective, hybrids can be a tool. It all comes down to what the player wants to get from D&D. Is it a PC that will be effective that fills you with joy; or, are you the type that desires to challenge your abilities, as a player and character creator, and strive for something unique and different?

The cost of hybrids is well worth it to those looking for something their friends find really odd. Limits are difficult, yet they create most of the fun. Taking a Gnome Battlemind, a Dragonborn Sorcerer/Barbarian or a Githzerai Wizard/Shaman/(invoker) to the table won't break the game, but you can be assured a good time will be had all.

Game well friends.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Start out with say Elf, 18 Dex/Wis, Hybrid Talent for Armor of Faith, and you're at base AC 17 at 1st. Which is definitely not bad Striker AC. Spend another feat at 2nd for Unarmored Agility and you're base AC 19 by 2nd.

I don't generally think Striker|Striker is a great idea, but Monk and Avenger have decent synergy due to the kind of strikers that they both are - Monk multi-target, Avenger focused on one foe. 



Actually, you would have an AC of 20 at level 2 (or 21 if you assume they find some +1 armor somewhere between going from 0 to 1000xp...)

Base AC = 10 + 1/2 level + Armor + stat (if light armor) + enhancement + misc.

This works out to 10 + 1 (1/2 of 2) + 0 (Cloth) + 4 (DEX) + 1 (Magic Cloth +1) + 2 (Unarmored Agility) + 3 (Armor of Faith) = 21

Or, again, 20 if you assume they are not getting any magic armor by level 2.

At level 2, that's not bad for a Striker...
I created a Changling Cleric/Psion hybrid, and was attempting to be a pacifist healer with psion abilities.  Though the build is fun, it turns out that my character is extremely nerfed on many fronts. 

Anyone think I can salvage this character?  Just curious.
Start out with say Elf, 18 Dex/Wis, Hybrid Talent for Armor of Faith, and you're at base AC 17 at 1st. Which is definitely not bad Striker AC. Spend another feat at 2nd for Unarmored Agility and you're base AC 19 by 2nd.

I don't generally think Striker|Striker is a great idea, but Monk and Avenger have decent synergy due to the kind of strikers that they both are - Monk multi-target, Avenger focused on one foe. 



Actually, you would have an AC of 20 at level 2 (or 21 if you assume they find some +1 armor somewhere between going from 0 to 1000xp...)

Base AC = 10 + 1/2 level + Armor + stat (if light armor) + enhancement + misc.

This works out to 10 + 1 (1/2 of 2) + 0 (Cloth) + 4 (DEX) + 1 (Magic Cloth +1) + 2 (Unarmored Agility) + 3 (Armor of Faith) = 21

Or, again, 20 if you assume they are not getting any magic armor by level 2.

At level 2, that's not bad for a Striker...



You are unable to have both hybrid talent ablilities until paragon. Mommy_was_an_Orc was correct as far as I know.

I also feel a striker should just be a striker. If you spend all these feats on making him/her more durable, you are les of a striker because those feats could be used to make your striker do more damage or more mobile.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

I created a Changling Cleric/Psion hybrid, and was attempting to be a pacifist healer with psion abilities.  Though the build is fun, it turns out that my character is extremely nerfed on many fronts. 

Anyone think I can salvage this character?  Just curious.



I don't think that is a good combination.  Clerics hybrid at least decently with most classes.  But psions are one of the few where they don't.  If you want to make a hybird cleric controller I would go bard, shaman, seeker, wizard, or invoker.  Both shaman and wizard can do pacifist type builds.

There are several hybrid builds like this in the cleric build book in my signature and there is a hybrid bard one that might accomplish the feeling you are going for with lots of forced movement and domination.
I'm having fun with a hybrid monk/cleric and a hybrid ranger/cleric. These combinations work really well together because the cleric gives access to battle cleric's lore, healing as a minor and surgeless healing. This means that you can play as an abnormally tough and durable striker.
I created a Changling Cleric/Psion hybrid, and was attempting to be a pacifist healer with psion abilities.  Though the build is fun, it turns out that my character is extremely nerfed on many fronts. 

Anyone think I can salvage this character?  Just curious.



I don't think that is a good combination.  Clerics hybrid at least decently with most classes.  But psions are one of the few where they don't.  If you want to make a hybird cleric controller I would go bard, shaman, seeker, wizard, or invoker.  Both shaman and wizard can do pacifist type builds.

There are several hybrid builds like this in the cleric build book in my signature and there is a hybrid bard one that might accomplish the feeling you are going for with lots of forced movement and domination.




Thanks for the advice.  I will give that a look. 
Some combinations I have been interested in trying are:

1. Avenger/Swordmage (power of skill for an attack you can use on teleport, that slides and with deadly draw gives combat advantage)
2. Assassin/Rogue (one feat to get permanent combat advantage against anything with a shroud on it. Done)
3. Assassin/Avenger has a PP based around being both classes and seems to work well. 
I mess around with Hybrids all the time. A few of the ones I run.

Assassin/Rogue is a perfect combo if you go full stealth, using daggers for a mix of ranged and melee attacks. Gloaming cut is your staple here.

Executioner/Rogue is just stupid good. A level 3 character swinging for 70+ damage as an encounter power. It takes a bit of tinkering for that to work. 

Wizard/Avenger. A wizard with absurd amounts of AC, and high skill in Melee combat as well as spells (Normally a weakness for a Wizard). Grab Staff Expertice to get the most out of this build. This was one of my current characters, but recently I had to morph it to...

Sorceror/Avenger, as there were no good paths for me at paragon level with regards to what I was trying to do with the character. I took a hit to AC to get storm soul, leading me to Lightning Fury

Warden/Fighter is an ultimate in defender. The ability to mark 2 enemies a turn AND get combat superiority on both of them. 

Fighter/Warlock/Avernian knight. If you base the Warlock powers off your Con and grab eldrich strike. Add in a Pact blade, and curse any enemy you mark. Then you punish the enemy just for messing with you. Once you get to paragon level, even more possibilities open up.

Bard/Any. Adding bard with anything makes you a master of all skills.

Cleric/Paladin or Cleric/Cavalier. Back up your healing with front line defensive power. 

A few ideas I havent had a chance to playtest yet.

Warlock/Rogue. Trained in intimidate. All my abilitys are based on making full use of rattling and fear.
 
Druid/Invoker. Divine AoE Attacks

Monk/Rogue. Melee AoE Striker

Ranger/Seeker. Become a master archer, with the ability to use your bow to fling spells as well as arrows. 

Sorceror/Rogue. Imbue spells into your dagger before you stab someone in the back 

On a final note:

Controller/Defender and Leader/Striker pairings tend to not work. Controllers tend to have low AC, and like to stay in the back, causing widespread damage, where Defenders are front liners, absorbing damage for the group. On the same note, Strikers are all about dealing damage, where Leaders are all about healing and bolstering the party.
RPGtable username : RTiger
Gamers!

A buddy of mine proposed we do a one nighter campaign using all Hybrid class characters just to see how/if they work. We will probably write a blog on what ones work/don't work. I created a level 6 Bard/Sorcerer hybrid. I chose those two because they both have CHA as their primary ability, but use it to do different things. I think that was one of the problems I had with hybrid classes in the beginning -- unless you had two classes that HAPPEN to line up (as far as their key ability goes), you would end up shortchanging one half of your hybrid class...

So, my question is: if there is anyone out there who really messes around a lot with hybrid classes -- what are the GOOD ones?

Thanks people!

Bruce
Administator
www.4etransmission.com

I'm currently running a campaign with three players and wanted them to be viable in all situations as a group.  So I went with Monk/Cleric   Fighter/Runepriest   Druid/Invoker

These seem to work ok.
I'm working on a hybrid "lazy" warlord / warlock build, after playing a warlord for a few months. (I'd go 100% warlock, but the party needs a leader.) What I'm working on is a hybrid warlord / vestige warlock, in order to grab as much of the secondary "leader-type" abilities from the vestige pact powers as I can. I've got the warlord's healing and powers to grant extra attacks, plus vestige-lock powers with leader-ish pact boons, plus warlock feats like Shared Pact to help the other party members. I haven't had a chance to try this in play yet -- it's one of those "looks good on paper" situations.

My question is: should I look at another pact besides the vestige pact? Is there another warlock pact which works better for a pseudo-leader who wants to double as a striker?
I'm working on a hybrid "lazy" warlord / warlock build, after playing a warlord for a few months. (I'd go 100% warlock, but the party needs a leader.) What I'm working on is a hybrid warlord / vestige warlock, in order to grab as much of the secondary "leader-type" abilities from the vestige pact powers as I can. I've got the warlord's healing and powers to grant extra attacks, plus vestige-lock powers with leader-ish pact boons, plus warlock feats like Shared Pact to help the other party members. I haven't had a chance to try this in play yet -- it's one of those "looks good on paper" situations.

My question is: should I look at another pact besides the vestige pact? Is there another warlock pact which works better for a pseudo-leader who wants to double as a striker?



A couple of issues:
You're not really spending a hybrid talent feat on Vestige Pact, right? You don't get pact boon unless you spend that for it, which is on the expensive side. Or pick up Twofold Pact for a whole new pact at paragon.

As a lazylord, Con isn't particularly a strong stat for you. But both Int and Cha can be. Int/Cha Warlocks can be very functional, too. While it might not provide the direct Leader qualities of Vestige, Fey has some significant debuffs. And Int/Cha opens a lot more 18/18 options for you.

A Warlord|Warlock MC Skald Bard gives you two heals per encounter via a Bard aura and has good stat synergy.
I'm working on a hybrid "lazy" warlord / warlock build, after playing a warlord for a few months. (I'd go 100% warlock, but the party needs a leader.) What I'm working on is a hybrid warlord / vestige warlock, in order to grab as much of the secondary "leader-type" abilities from the vestige pact powers as I can. I've got the warlord's healing and powers to grant extra attacks, plus vestige-lock powers with leader-ish pact boons, plus warlock feats like Shared Pact to help the other party members. I haven't had a chance to try this in play yet -- it's one of those "looks good on paper" situations.

My question is: should I look at another pact besides the vestige pact? Is there another warlock pact which works better for a pseudo-leader who wants to double as a striker?



A couple of issues:
You're not really spending a hybrid talent feat on Vestige Pact, right? You don't get pact boon unless you spend that for it, which is on the expensive side. Or pick up Twofold Pact for a whole new pact at paragon.

As a lazylord, Con isn't particularly a strong stat for you. But both Int and Cha can be. Int/Cha Warlocks can be very functional, too. While it might not provide the direct Leader qualities of Vestige, Fey has some significant debuffs. And Int/Cha opens a lot more 18/18 options for you.

A Warlord|Warlock MC Skald Bard gives you two heals per encounter via a Bard aura and has good stat synergy.



Thanks for suggestions! For campaign continuity reasons, I'll be going with some sort of warlord/warlock combination. I'd like to change characters, but rather than completely replace the old one, I'm giving him a major re-design. He's currently a warlord; he's going to get temporarily killed off, and make a pact with the Powers That Be in order to come back. (Still a warlord but also a warlock.) As the party's only leader, it's important to maximize his leadership capability.

Yes, I made sure I got the pact boon for the Vestige Pact; each level of daily (1st/5th/9th, and so on) has at least one vestige power with a good leader-style pact boon. And none of the pacts have the versatility of getting a different pact boon with each vestige. I've effectively got three different pact boons to choose from at 15th level (no Prime Shot, so Zutwa's useless, and one daily has to be a warlord power) without adding Twofold Pact. And with Vestige Versatility, I can keep any two of them active at once. However, I really should look at Twofold Pact, if I can pry loose a feat slot. Fate of the Void plus Shared Pact has the potential to be a useful leader ability.

Con may not be a strong stat for lazylords, but the Cha-based pacts don't quite seem to have the same leadership potential. Unless I find there's a Cha-pact with better leadership powers than the Vestige Pact, I'll have to stick with Con/Int.

I've got two heals per encounter via the Fight On feat, but I'll see about an MC feat instead. (Is there an extra trained skill in the bargain?)
However, I really should look at Twofold Pact, if I can pry loose a feat slot. Fate of the Void plus Shared Pact has the potential to be a useful leader ability.

Con may not be a strong stat for lazylords, but the Cha-based pacts don't quite seem to have the same leadership potential. Unless I find there's a Cha-pact with better leadership powers than the Vestige Pact, I'll have to stick with Con/Int.

I've got two heals per encounter via the Fight On feat, but I'll see about an MC feat instead. (Is there an extra trained skill in the bargain?)



If you're already Paragon, you absolutely want to just take Twofold Pact over spending your Hybrid Talent feat on Pact. Twofold Pact lets you pick a different pact to get a boon and the at-will from that pact. So if you started say as Star Pact at 1st, you could pick up Vestige at 11th. It is strictly better than using your Hybrid Talent feat at all if you have a choice solely between one or the other.

There is indeed an extra trained skill in the bargain.

Int/Cha might not add that much to your Warlock Pact benefits, but that's not quite the point - the point is that you can use both Int and Cha on your Warlord benefits as a Lazy Warlord instead of just Int. So you're not as much of a leader from your Warlock side, but you're a better leader from your Warlord side. And then you save a bunch of feats that required using pact options and hoping to kill things to trigger your extra leader qualities.

Unless of course your DM likes using tons of minions... 
However, I really should look at Twofold Pact, if I can pry loose a feat slot. Fate of the Void plus Shared Pact has the potential to be a useful leader ability.

Con may not be a strong stat for lazylords, but the Cha-based pacts don't quite seem to have the same leadership potential. Unless I find there's a Cha-pact with better leadership powers than the Vestige Pact, I'll have to stick with Con/Int.

I've got two heals per encounter via the Fight On feat, but I'll see about an MC feat instead. (Is there an extra trained skill in the bargain?)



If you're already Paragon, you absolutely want to just take Twofold Pact over spending your Hybrid Talent feat on Pact. Twofold Pact lets you pick a different pact to get a boon and the at-will from that pact. So if you started say as Star Pact at 1st, you could pick up Vestige at 11th. It is strictly better than using your Hybrid Talent feat at all if you have a choice solely between one or the other.

There is indeed an extra trained skill in the bargain.

Int/Cha might not add that much to your Warlock Pact benefits, but that's not quite the point - the point is that you can use both Int and Cha on your Warlord benefits as a Lazy Warlord instead of just Int. So you're not as much of a leader from your Warlock side, but you're a better leader from your Warlord side. And then you save a bunch of feats that required using pact options and hoping to kill things to trigger your extra leader qualities.

Unless of course your DM likes using tons of minions... 



I like that idea; I might experiment with using Hybrid talent for Prime Shot to get the full benefit of the Vestige of Zutwa.

As for Int/Cha, I'm using mostly Warlock powers with Int riders, and just a few Warlord powers; so I'm not running out of Int-only options there. Generally I prefer high Cha for the social skills if nothing else, but for this build, the powers I want to use are in the Con-based Warlock pacts.

I'll do some tinkering with character builder anyway, and see what comes together. You've definitely given me some ideas, so thanks!

As for Int/Cha, I'm using mostly Warlock powers with Int riders, and just a few Warlord powers; so I'm not running out of Int-only options there. Generally I prefer high Cha for the social skills if nothing else, but for this build, the powers I want to use are in the Con-based Warlock pacts.



You should look at Arcane Mutterings(Skill power level 2) in that case - lets you use an Arcana check instead of Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate once per encounter. You can pick it up with a feat use or with your level 2 utility.