modern is a big bust

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Well modern has quickly become a stale and unplayable mess for people who don't wanna shell out 200 plus dollars on a deck.   I went on MTGO to try a daily event and the first two decks i face 12post, wow a format that ain't even a month old and already deck construction is becoming either you run one of 4 decks and win and enjoy modern or build your own or try an older deck type and lose and hate life.  Modern was suppose to be a breath of fresh air for magic players yet its becoming like extend bland and dull. Thanks wizard for making a format i was so looking forward to play but y'all failed.  Modern has become just as stale as extended is.
What a worthless post. If you honestly think someone at WotC tried to pull the wool over your eyes regarding the prices of most modern decks, then you have an issue with reality.

The other joke is that you think 7+ deck archetypes being a legitimate choice for winning a modern tourney is "stale".

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When was Modern an attempt to lessen prices?
You can't just say 12 post, theres like 13 different versions of a deck that runs on the same mana base.
Modern is a breath of air for old formats like Legacy, and its very very dynamic as opposed to bland.
Modern is no where near as stale as Extended now, and no where near as stale as Extended before it got changed. Both of those formats are dominated by certain decks, one being Stoneforge Mystic.dek, and the other being Thepths. There is no way that this format is stagnant. You just sound like someone can't handle putting money into a game.

Your post was one massive bust. Infact, it seems I just Boom // Busted all your logical reasoning.
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o-O Perhaps he's disappointed because Modern didn't feed the children of southern Africa, or cure the common cold, or make us all capable of walking on water.


Modern set-out to build a more interesting, and well designed format of competitive and casual Magic alike. It succeded to do so, and in a room where a horde of players shared notes THE ENTIRE TIME THEY PREPARED, the format still erupted into many crazy directions, AND it was proven that decks which run into t8+ or start as late as t4 have a chance in this format (making it a deckbuilder's paradise in some regard), even if there are t2/t3 combos that come out now and then, the top4 was made up of only one super-fast deck, two "win fair" decks and 1 slow combo (which won the whole thing). I really don't know how that is "stale"


A format isn't going to REDUCE the price point of entry, until there are some mass distributed reprints made (most especially special lands)

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When was Modern an attempt to lessen prices?


There were a lot of people who wanted Modern/Overextended to be budget Legacy, without the duals. The reserved list and the low availability of Legacy staples was a factor behind them creating modern, LaPille said so, so Modern could be considered as an attempt to lower the entry barrier to Eternal formats.

Of course prices of cards have risen since, and if Modern was supposed to be (among other things) a less expensive replacement for Legacy, it failed.

In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
When was Modern an attempt to lessen prices?


There were a lot of people who wanted Modern/Overextended to be budget Legacy, without the duals. The reserved list and the low availability of Legacy staples was a factor behind them creating modern, LaPille said so, so Modern could be considered as an attempt to lower the entry barrier to Eternal formats.

Of course prices of cards have risen since, and if Modern was supposed to be (among other things) a less expensive replacement for Legacy, it failed.



This is false. Modern is SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than Legacy, and the expensive cards are shared by more decks.

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When was Modern an attempt to lessen prices?


There were a lot of people who wanted Modern/Overextended to be budget Legacy, without the duals. The reserved list and the low availability of Legacy staples was a factor behind them creating modern, LaPille said so, so Modern could be considered as an attempt to lower the entry barrier to Eternal formats.

Of course prices of cards have risen since, and if Modern was supposed to be (among other things) a less expensive replacement for Legacy, it failed.




I want it now!

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When was Modern an attempt to lessen prices?


There were a lot of people who wanted Modern/Overextended to be budget Legacy, without the duals. The reserved list and the low availability of Legacy staples was a factor behind them creating modern, LaPille said so, so Modern could be considered as an attempt to lower the entry barrier to Eternal formats.

Of course prices of cards have risen since, and if Modern was supposed to be (among other things) a less expensive replacement for Legacy, it failed.




I want it now!



Hey, I know. All our hopes are doomed from the start.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Blue based shocks are getting pretty darn pricey.

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Well Blue players are pretentious jerks either way so who cares about them.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
This is false. Modern is SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than Legacy



That much is true... but not very relevant. Modern is already affecting the prices of Mirrodin-onwards staples much more than Legacy, and there's little to suggest it won't catch up with Legacy... in maybe 6-12 months I would say. It's enough that 'Goyf won't be banned, Jace will likely get unbanned, neither will be reprinted of course, so many decks will cost at least $800 owing to these two alone. Legacy used to be significantly cheaper as well, until around 6 months ago.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
This is false. Modern is SIGNIFICANTLY less expensive than Legacy



That much is true... but not very relevant. Modern is already affecting the prices of Mirrodin-onwards staples much more than Legacy, and there's little to suggest it won't catch up with Legacy... in maybe 6-12 months I would say. It's enough that 'Goyf won't be banned, Jace will likely get unbanned, neither will be reprinted of course, so many decks will cost at least $800 owing to these two alone. Legacy used to be significantly cheaper as well, until around 6 months ago.


Aside from the fact that you just listed the two MOST expensive cards (potentially) in the format, which are about normal price for Legacy staples, there's always the fact that either one may, in fact, be reprinted in some form. MaRo has already said that 'Goyf is a potential Standard reprint.

Truth is, I'm giving it better-than-even odds that 'Goyf is reprinted in Dark Ascension or Set 3 of the block.

Here's the reality: The mose expensive competitive Modern decks are still about the same price as the cheapest tier-2 Legacy deck (Merfolk, which is $600+ for a proper list). 

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I was really disappointed by Modern. But let me explain, since it is probably just a personal problem...

When Legacy was split from Vintage (I know the terms are a bit anachronistic) the meta was WIDE open. I went to three or four small legacy tournaments and no deck was the same, many different decks could do well, and there was a ton of strategies that were viable.

My perception of Modern (and I believe this is entirely because it was kicked off by a Pro-Tour) is that "all" (scare quotes because of hyperbole) of the viable decks have already been determined, tested, proven, and streamlined.

This took a lot of mystery and excitement out of the format and made me (like I said, personal problem) not really want to be involved in the innovation process.

Also, the format seems really bland if you are not a combo player or don't want to play Zoo. There just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of diversity. Granted, there isn't a lot of data right now and because it was kicked off on a Pro-Tour a lot of the chaff has already been discarded. But I really, really liked that period in Legacy when things were still up in the air and lots of things could be viable outside of the agreed upon DtB.

I think Modern perhaps "accomplished" what it was supposed to do. Be a non-rotating format that isn't Vintage or Legacy. Hopefully not being bound to the design mistakes of the past (of course, we'll look the other way with goyf...). I'm just not a huge fan. So, whatever.

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I am knowledgable about non-rotating formats. I usually have no idea about Standard.

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In all fairness though back in 2004 when Legacy started there was a lot less online coverage of events like this and you didn't have as many forums like this or the large populations they now have where top decks are quickly established and built in local metas.
And it's said that youth's ,well only tragedy Is being unoriginal
89522235 wrote:
niche's solution to everything is always MOAR BLACK! "ok, my legacy mono black control deck is getting hated out by light of day..." "MOAR BLACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
In other words, a bunch of 8-16 person groups who didn't have a single idea of what was going on can't compare to 400 pro or semi-pro players working to break a format.

Of course, now that the format has been broken, they can move onto un-breaking it. Invention, Innovation, Competition, Optimization, Stagnation. Rinse, Repeat. 

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Truth is, I'm giving it better-than-even odds that 'Goyf is reprinted in Dark Ascension or Set 3 of the block.

Here's the reality: The mose expensive competitive Modern decks are still about the same price as the cheapest tier-2 Legacy deck (Merfolk, which is $600+ for a proper list). 



I agree, Goyf will probably be reprinted.  It's really the only card in Modern that is going for the price of Legacy staples, but that's because it IS a Legacy staple.

I just looked at a price site.  The top 4 Modern decks at Philly had an average cost of about $760 using the HIGH prices.

Looking at the top 4 decks of the last Legacy event posted on the same site, the average cost of the decks was about $1450 using the LOW prices.

That's a pretty wide gap in prices.  Combine that with probable reprints for any staples that get out of hand, and Modern should remain vastly cheaper than Legacy.  And there is no way they un-ban Jace, TMS.  They do not WANT to reprint Jace.  The whole point of the new Modern format was to have a non-rotational set where all of the cards could be reprinted if they wished. 
In other words, a bunch of 8-16 person groups who didn't have a single idea of what was going on can't compare to 400 pro or semi-pro players working to break a format.


This is exactly it.

When Legacy split from Vintage we had the Source....and that's it. Vintage, honestly had already been extremely streamlined, and remains so today (thanks to things going as far back as the Dojo and continuing today on The Mana Drain). There isn't a whole lot of innovation there because there just isn't room for it. It had reached that state (or just about reached it) by 2004. Legacy was a breath of fresh air from Vintage because of that. There wasn't a lot of dicussion about it besides here and the Source, and for a long time the metagame was up in the air. The format was wide open and it felt wide open.

Modern was supposed to do the same thing. Except it never actually felt wide open. It was never given a chance to be when you make the pros play it. They aren't going to bring their jank pet deck to the pro tour because they have some sort of nostalgic attachment to it and there is finally a format they can play it in.

So, yeah. Modern is successful, I guess, insofar as it does provide an alternative to the other eternal formats. And it has the people who can't afford duals and FoW, etc. excited. But there is no mystery behind it, which is what made Legacy so much fun when it started. It felt like the old days of Magic, when things weren't about statistics and the next chase mythic. Modern feels like a format specifically about those sorts of things.

Meh, I'm just droning on like some disenfranchised geezer pining for the simpler times. Undecided

"There are some who call me...Tim?" Go Duke! I apologize for my lack of grammar, spelling, and coherence in my posts. Former Member: Team ABS

I am knowledgable about non-rotating formats. I usually have no idea about Standard.

http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/

In other words, a bunch of 8-16 person groups who didn't have a single idea of what was going on can't compare to 400 pro or semi-pro players working to break a format.


This is exactly it.

When Legacy split from Vintage we had the Source....and that's it. Vintage, honestly had already been extremely streamlined, and remains so today (thanks to things going as far back as the Dojo and continuing today on The Mana Drain). There isn't a whole lot of innovation there because there just isn't room for it. It had reached that state (or just about reached it) by 2004. Legacy was a breath of fresh air from Vintage because of that. There wasn't a lot of dicussion about it besides here and the Source, and for a long time the metagame was up in the air. The format was wide open and it felt wide open.

Modern was supposed to do the same thing. Except it never actually felt wide open. It was never given a chance to be when you make the pros play it. They aren't going to bring their jank pet deck to the pro tour because they have some sort of nostalgic attachment to it and there is finally a format they can play it in.

So, yeah. Modern is successful, I guess, insofar as it does provide an alternative to the other eternal formats. And it has the people who can't afford duals and FoW, etc. excited. But there is no mystery behind it, which is what made Legacy so much fun when it started. It felt like the old days of Magic, when things weren't about statistics and the next chase mythic. Modern feels like a format specifically about those sorts of things.

Meh, I'm just droning on like some disenfranchised geezer pining for the simpler times.



This is simply the effect of of the internet on all competitve games, be they card games or video games. The internet accelerates discovery and sharing of information, and things like Magic Online, and adding net play to fighting games gives you access to a competitve playground at any time to test things.  I see the same types of comments on Shoryuken.com regarding fighting games that took the better part of a decade to completely figure out in the past, are now craked in a ocuple of months.  There will never be slow development of the meta in any competive game ever again.
Truth is, I'm giving it better-than-even odds that 'Goyf is reprinted in Dark Ascension or Set 3 of the block.



That would be great for us players, but I doubt it will happen. Grim Lavamancer and Nantuko Shade are one thing, Tarmogoyf is quite another, everything above $50 probably belongs in an FTV. A Standard reprint might actually mean the price would go up because of huge demand from Standard players, like with Solemn Simulacrum.

Besides, Lhurgoyfs apparently live on Dominaria. What would one be doing on Innistrad (or Ravnica, where we supposedly go afterwards)? Being an otherwordly invasive species? Silly things like this seem to matter to the design team.


In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!

You know how people complaining about Legacy and say it's a format all about combo kills in the first 3 turns because they know nothing about the format? Well Modern is basically the bad format ignorant people think Legacy is.
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That would be great for us players, but I doubt it will happen. Grim Lavamancer and Nantuko Shade are one thing, Tarmogoyf is quite another, everything above $50 probably belongs in an FTV.




Do you have any idea how baseless that claim is? It essentially flies in the face of R&D's reprint selection process. If that's not clear enough - the value of an existing card has ZERO bearing on whether or not it gets reprinted. WotC bases their reprints off of customer demand, flavor, interesting gameplay, and nostalgia.


You know how people complaining about Legacy and say it's a format all about combo kills in the first 3 turns because they know nothing about the format? Well Modern is basically the bad format ignorant people think Legacy is.



I think disruption was criminally neglected in the Philly PT, though the resilience of zoo and 12-post had more to do with that than anything else. Modern is doing an outstanding job at illustrating the need for better black disruption. If R&D still thinks random discard is too "un-fun", then they need to start combining jester's cap effects into thoughtseize effects. for inquisition of kozilek + surgical extraction on the same card seems relevant without being broken.

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Without making it sound like a Vietnam flashback or something, "You weren't there". There was plenty of disruption decks, Jund running Molten Rains, 6 discard spells, slaughter pact to kill pestermite etc, and still, they were getting stomped.

I watched one of the few control players curve from thoughtseize, into DC, into V. Clique, then sit on counterspells for a few turns and they were just dead to twin-combo. The twin combo deck is entirely focussed on getting the combo and protecting it, and they can run more of each piece along with better protection spells. Disrupting Shoals were sold out at $15 Friday morning, which was interesting.

The cards you need to beat each combo deck are wildly different from each other, and can sometimes not make a difference. I saw Teeg out against a Cloudpost deck(stopping scapeshift), so the player(David Williams) just cast Summer bloom with Amulet on board and dropped his Gruul Turf three times to generate six mana and set up turn four Emrakul.

Watching a zoo player trying to put up an effective enough clock agaisnt Twin to sit back on counterspells is a farce, Josh's efforts were admirable, but it was always a losing battle.

With ponder and preordain, it's so easy to play around dirsuption for the combo decks, there is no incentive to run a non-combo deck at the moment, since combo decks like 12 post have a better and easier late game, as well as the ability to turn 3 hardcast emrakul, or turn two through the breach Emrakul.
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the value of an existing card has ZERO bearing on whether or not it gets reprinted. WotC bases their reprints off of customer demand, flavor, interesting gameplay, and nostalgia.



I'll agree when they reprint Bob and Goyf in a widely available product. Or FoW, Wasteland, SoFaI, Vindicate, Polluted Delta... Customer demand for these cards is huge (and has been for a long long time), the price is indicative of that; subjective criteria such as interesting gameplay aren't enough to explain why we're not seeing these reprints. As of today, expensive old cards are at best getting the FTV or judge promo treatment. The cheaper ones are being reprinted in Standard and duel decks, very sparingly.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
I want to know what kind of bad control player curved into 5 power worth of creatures and then lost a few turns later with a hand full of countermagic.

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I just read through the whole conversation.

If I remember correctly, Tarmogoyf is one of those Future Sight cards with the special design that meant that they may or may not be reprinted in the future, in the same or different colors.

I most certainly hope that tarmogoyf gets banned in modern and more control/disruption cards for modern (but not legacy) are printed. For me, this is the best-case senario.

The worst case senario would be for tarmogoyf to be reprinted as a blue creature. Anyone else having nightmares?

Meh. So far I don't like modern. I most certainly prefer Legacy. As CyrusBales very correctly said; "You know how people complaining about Legacy and say it's a format all about combo kills in the first 3 turns because they know nothing about the format? Well Modern is basically the bad format ignorant people think Legacy is.".

This is what modern is. A format full of combo decks (some of them really nice, I like combo decks, don't get me wrong) and Tarmogoyfs. There is no balance yet, while legacy is a really balanced format, where turn-1/2/3 kills are easily disrupted and you have to figure out a more solid tactic.
Reprinting wasteland would go a long way in balancing the format... *braces for fallout*

I'm sure we've only seen the tip-of the iceberg for how Wizards will regulate Modern. I'm pretty sure they don't want all these combo decks running around. Nor do they want Zoo (and affinity? lol) to be the only viable aggro deck. We'll see bannings, unbannings, and Modern specific cards in the near future.

"There are some who call me...Tim?" Go Duke! I apologize for my lack of grammar, spelling, and coherence in my posts. Former Member: Team ABS

I am knowledgable about non-rotating formats. I usually have no idea about Standard.

http://www.nogoblinsallowed.com/

Wasteland is too strong for Modern.

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I love Modern. I hope nothing changes for a while.

This format is excellent.   
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I love Modern. I hope nothing changes for a while.

This format is excellent.   




X 2

I want ancestral visions, mental misstep and stoneforge unbanned though!
I belive the banhammer on stoneforge is going to be stuck on the on setting, considering it gets played in vintage AND legacy. With bannings in standard and modern meaning its JUST THAT GOOD. You do know how hard it is to get a standard creature card to be good in those formats right? The last 2 were goyf and confidant. You do know that the old cawblade lists can compete in older formats with only a few bits changing here and there. Im GLAD modern isnt the return to the old cawblade decks that had early middle and lategame inevitability to them. I can live in a format like this where were still testing out the waters on what we all want to get to.
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead." —Jaya Ballard, task mage

I think there is good argument for Vesuva and Goyf to see the banhammer simply because Vesuva empowers ANY land far too well (lands are power in Magic, afterall), and Goyf is just super-Blastoderm most of the time. Both cards are innocent enough within their design space, but push the upper limit of "where we should go", since clone-lands and non-specific graveyard effects are just bad news in competitive settings.


And on the other side, I think there is good argument for many objects to get off of the banlist (though I'm not quite convinced that Stoneforge Mystic, Sensei's Divining Top or Umezawa's Jitte are the best choices)

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If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.

If anything gets unbanned, Ancestral Visions needs to be unbanned, along with Bitterblossom. Control barely stands a chance without the sheer CA that is Ancestral Visions. 
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If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.

If anything gets unbanned, Ancestral Visions needs to be unbanned, along with Bitterblossom. Control barely stands a chance without the sheer CA that is Ancestral Visions. 



visions I can see comming off. I find it not that particularly damning of a card. On the other hand I doubt blossom will since its very broken to get a 1/1 body that evades, which when played with the rest of a fae deck gets abusive very quickly.
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Why are they so worried about stoneforge when post, pyromancer, splinter are winning in 3 or 4 turns. We need more solid aggro control cards. They worried about a 3rd turn batterskull but who cares about a 4th turn emrakul or 24 goblin tokens or 10000 splinter tokens
Why are they so worried about stoneforge when post, pyromancer, splinter are winning in 3 or 4 turns. We need more solid aggro control cards. They worried about a 3rd turn batterskull but who cares about a 4th turn emrakul or 24 goblin tokens or 10000 splinter tokens



I personally don't want the game to go in the opposite extreme of the current modern's meta or stay at the current state. Cawblade was a lot like raffinity was in morrodin/onslaught meta where you either played cawblade or a red deck, and the red decks didn't often do so well.

I agree with unbanning visions, it might help control against the current field. If they are against unbanning visions then I would hope that they do something to lower the power of the current meta of combo or gtfo.
Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.

Islands only likes the format because it's the one format where his pet deck, Pyromancer's Ascension, is a good deck :P

Seriosuly though, I found the WOTC coverage very amusing and the meta breakdown today trying to make it look fair by lumping all the bad builds of decks with good builds to drag their numbers down, and using small sample sizes.

If the banlist doesn't change for the modern PTQ season, I suspect it will be just as bad a season as Extended was. Which is a shame, since I was really excited about the format, and the PT just ended up being a bit of a joke, and my expection for a Japanese player to come up with a super sick gifts control deck was a failure.
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If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.
 



It makes other bears unplayable, and the "it dies to removal" is the same bad argument to support not banning EVERY broken creature. Generic, not so much though because it scales by rewarding you for playing every type of permanent and temporary as quickly as possible, so I don't see how it would be bad judgment to get rid of a card which throws the cost = effect balance far more out of whack than even artifact lands.


As for Ancestral Visions though, I don't really understand why they banned it in the first place (since all it does is replenishes the hand after several turns)

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Islands only likes the format because it's the one format where his pet deck, Pyromancer's Ascension, is a good deck :P

Seriosuly though, I found the WOTC coverage very amusing and the meta breakdown today trying to make it look fair by lumping all the bad builds of decks with good builds to drag their numbers down, and using small sample sizes.

If the banlist doesn't change for the modern PTQ season, I suspect it will be just as bad a season as Extended was. Which is a shame, since I was really excited about the format, and the PT just ended up being a bit of a joke, and my expection for a Japanese player to come up with a super sick gifts control deck was a failure.



YOU LIE THEY DID MAKE A GIFTS CONTROL DECK AND THEY DIDN'T SHARE IT.

LIAR! YOU'LL SEE THEY WILL BE ALL, "OH YEA LOL HERES A GIFTS CONTROL DECK."

AND IT WILL BE AWESOME.

I can dream.
Of course I'm sure I've gone mad. The little man who crawled out of my eye was quite clear on this.
As for Ancestral Visions though, I don't really understand why they banned it in the first place (since all it does is replenishes the hand after several turns)


I seriously hate how no one seems to understand this, it's very simple.

Guess how much money Ancestal Visions makes WotC?

Zero cents.

Guess how much money Visions of Beyond gets them?

Islands only likes the format because it's the one format where his pet deck, Pyromancer's Ascension, is a good deck :P



I thought he was prouder for his Infect/Trash Truck deck...
If goyf gets banned, I will seriously question the judgement of WotC. Goyf is a generic beater for 2. Every colour besides blue has a good answer for a generic dude for 2.
 



It makes other bears unplayable, and the "it dies to removal" is the same bad argument to support not banning EVERY broken creature. Generic, not so much though because it scales by rewarding you for playing every type of permanent and temporary as quickly as possible, so I don't see how it would be bad judgment to get rid of a card which throws the cost = effect balance far more out of whack than even artifact lands.


As for Ancestral Visions though, I don't really understand why they banned it in the first place (since all it does is replenishes the hand after several turns)




Goyf may make almost every other 2 drop creature unplayable, but banning goyf makes any deck revolving around creatures unplayable. Seriously, the reason Goyf has not been banned is because creature decks are just unplayable without him in powerful formats. Wild Nacatl makes 99.9% of 1 drops unplayble too, but again, without it creature decks are unplayable.
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