Double-Faced cards: Magic has finally jumped the shark

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To be clear, this is not a rant thread. Nor is this a thread created with the explicit intention of trolling, or insulting or irritating anybody else on the forums. This is intended as a diversion to hopefully cut down on the inevitable tide of threads that will be created over the next week or so proclaiming that the latest change to Magic: The Gathering (in this case, double-sided cards) is a horrible horrible sin and will be the end of the poor card game as we all knew it. 
To ORCS and/or Zammm: Please do not lock this thread. It is not stifling speech of others, nor denigrating them. I can guarantee that there will be plenty of angry folk who will charge into magic general without even glancing at the threads that already exist, so dead-set on voicing their rage over this new 'atrocity'. This isn't going to stop all of the redundant complaint threads. But hopefully, for the sake of the regular forumgoers' collective sanity, this will at least put a lid on the quantity.

That being said, I'm pretty excited for double-sided cards. If Richard Garfield and Mark Rosewater weren't on the design team I might be a bit more anxious, but those two are arguably the best (certainly the most experienced) designers in Magic's history. I have plenty of faith in their ability to deliver. 
You'll forget you ever read this the minute you look away.
Veslfen's House of Bone-Dry Sarcasm
88318561 wrote:
76783093 wrote:
there is nothing "epic" about a turn one victory. ever. or really any magic game, for that matter.
So this one time, I wanted to play a game of Magic with my friend, but he was in another country and neither of us had Magic Online. I hitchhiked my way to the coast, barely fending off hungry wildlife when I couldn't get a ride, nearly dying of thirst crossing deserts, and posoning myself half to death foraging for food. At one point, I was taken hostage by a group of kidnappers, only managing to escape after a week of careful planning thanks to careful application of a rusty spoon. Once I reached the coast, I had no money to buy a ticket across the ocean, so I built a boat using my own two hands, and spent months sailing across the waves, nearly losing my deck as I swam to the shore of a desert island in a storm after being capsized by an enormous wave. Nearly delusional after so long with no human contact (the notches I cut in the single tree to tell time had long since felled the thing) I was eventually rescued by a passing ship, where I was taken aboard as a crew member. We sailed around the world, seeing many exotic places and having great adventures, before we finally arrived at my friend's country. Once more I stumbled across a desolate landscape, riding on train or car when I could, and going on foot when I could not. Eventually, weary to the bone, seven years after I started my journey, I arrived at my friend's house, clutching my well-worn and weathered deck to my chest. We shuffled up our decks, I won the roll. Gleefully, I laid down my cards. Black Lotus. My friend looked quizzically at me, wondering what I was about to do. After so long, he no longer knew what deck I had brought with me to this game. Flash. A knowing smile appears on my friend's face as the knowledge slowly returns to him. Protean Hulk. My friend extends his hand, knowing the game is over before it even started. And finally, after so many trials, the sweet taste of victory is mine.
56866178 wrote:
108166749 wrote:
So no one else is upset with the stunt Wizards just pulled to drive sales?
Drive sales of what? Non-Jace, non-Mystic cards? I'm pretty sure people already own more than eight Magic cards. If you don't, I feel for you. Maybe you can trade those Stoneforge Mystics, which are still quite valuable, for some.
This is a spoiler to the new set. It shouldn't be here.
double sided cards sound really cool, i have seen the article explaining them, and i like how it works.
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Transform cards do have an advantage from a marketing point of view. Wizards can advertise Dark Ascension as "Transform card free" and I'm sure people would buy it just for that. In fact, it even works retroactively:

Worldwake- "Now with zero transform cards"
Homelands- "All the cards have matching backs"
Portal- "Not the dumbest thing we've printed"

It's Coke Classic all over again.
57092228 wrote:
It is not logic: it's Magic.


I am open to the idea, but the drafting rules are sort of odd: "You don't have to really even acknowledge these cards exist in your pile. But you can, if you like. Whatever works for you. We don't care!"

Also, I don't know about playing a deck with the next draw sitting there for everybody to see with no benefits associated with that. Also, it seems like actually getting the dang werewolf card to flip to the werewolf side will be a rather rare event with those conditions. Or am I missing something?
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the draft rules; they basically just said you can reorder your currently-taken cards pile, so you don't need to put a More-Than-Meets-The-Eye on top. You're also allowed to show other players (I believe this is because if a player sees the card back they'll know what it is full stop, so they just let you show these transform cards regardless).

As for playing them in the deck, you need to use either a checklist card (which has a normal Magic back), Opaque sleeves, or both. There's no way you're going to know that your next card is a Transformer under normal circumstances. 
I'm all about super-control in MTG. If you're able to stop my shenanigans, then there aren't enough shenanigans. Lv 1 Judge Current Decklists Sweeping Beauty (Casual) A Vision of Clones (Casual) Coming soon... more decks! :-O
Drafting - I guess all I was referring to was the fact that you can show the card to your neighbor, or not. Hide it, or just lay it out there. It just seems like it's not so much a rules clarification as much as it is just ignoring the card. Or not ignoring it. Whatever you prefer. Not a real problem, just kind of odd.

Ok, I didn't understand the checklist card bit. So, the actual creature cards will sit on the side like tokens until the checklist card is drawn? I wonder if they will be included automatically in boosters containing Transform cards. But that still leaves the issue: Do you pull the card into your hand when you draw the checklist card signaling to your opponent that you pulled a Transform card, or do you leave them on the side in plain view so you can get the mana info for casting? Either way, you are tipping your hand, either what you just drew, or what you have in your deck.
Errrm is this a joke? Why are they making double faced cards? what does it solve that a token wouldn't? Also these are going to be a pain in sleeves...

EDH: Kresh, the Bloodbraided

 

In Swansea? PM me if youre up for an EDH game or two!

 

 I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green

Ok, I didn't understand the checklist card bit. So, the actual creature cards will sit on the side like tokens until the checklist card is drawn? I wonder if they will be included automatically in boosters containing Transform cards. But that still leaves the issue: Do you pull the card into your hand when you draw the checklist card signaling to your opponent that you pulled a Transform card, or do you leave them on the side in plain view so you can get the mana info for casting? Either way, you are tipping your hand, either what you just drew, or what you have in your deck.



The checklist cards looked like they had the casting cost of every transform card on them, so you wouldn't need to reference the actual card for that at least (but perhaps to remind yourself what it does).  You would use the checklist card any time the card would not be normally visible to all players (including in your hand).
The only time you'd swap a checklist card for the real card is if the card enters a public zone (definitely the battlefield, and possibly graveyard or exile - I can't remember what it said). Checklist is used in all private zones (the whole point of the checklist is to hide the fact it's a dual sided card).

Of course, if you use opaque (that is, non-clear) sleeves you don't need to worry about the checklist at all - you just desleeve the card and turn it over if it transforms.

As for the checklists, they've made no mention of how they'll be distributed. I'm guessing they'll send heaps to dealers and to people hosting prerelease and release events, as including them in each pack may not even be enough, given that even with less than 20% of the set spoiled it's currently possible to get at least 4 transform cards in the one pack (2 uncommons, 1 rare, 1 foil), meaning that 1 checklist for that sort of pack just isn't enough. I'd say the onus is on Wizards to make them free and pretty much accessible-at-will though, given that they've made them a more-or-less mandatory extra (yes, you don't need them if you run sleeves - but sleeves are, in general cases, not mandatory (there's something about legacy/vintage cards with different shaped corners needing sleeves)).
I'm all about super-control in MTG. If you're able to stop my shenanigans, then there aren't enough shenanigans. Lv 1 Judge Current Decklists Sweeping Beauty (Casual) A Vision of Clones (Casual) Coming soon... more decks! :-O
Errrm is this a joke? Why are they making double faced cards? what does it solve that a token wouldn't? Also these are going to be a pain in sleeves...




In fairness, tokens wouldn't work. The token's entire rules text would have to be printed on the card, flipping back wouldn't work and it would end up becoming a different permanent each time.

Flip cards would have worked for most of the transform cards spoiled so far. A few would lose reminder text or perhaps have to be simplified somewhat but this is not a bad thing. Even with the drawbacks flip cards may have, they're not a complete waste of time that is not only so stupid that an un-set wouldn't print it. Nor do they ignore basic common sense that has been with card design since playing cards were invented.

Does anyone know who's officially taking the blame for flip cards? I'm curious as to whether this is one of MaRo's ideas or if Garfield is just senile.

Regarding the sleeving thing, am I right in thinking that at no point in the design did anyone actually put a card in a sleeve the wrong way and realise that it is easy enough to tell the difference?
57092228 wrote:
It is not logic: it's Magic.


It's definitely weird, no doubt about that.  I personally think that doing flip cards Kamigawa-style would have had the same effect without all the over-complex issues of "my magic card doesn't have a normal back to it."  Hell, even tokens on the level of Sengir Nosferatu would have made more sense.  I like the idea behind it, just not the implementation.
"Do not concern yourself with my origin, my race, or my ancestry. Seek my record in the pits, and then make your wager." --Arcanis the Omnipotent
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I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
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Before they banned the format out of existence, I was a proud supporter of Modern.

SO I shell out 30$ for a chase rare, and then I have to TAKE IT OUT OF THE SLEAVE in a public card shop while my FOE IS DRINKING COKE?
The only reason I'm pissed that WotC did this is that now no one will shut the **** up about it for the next three months.

Watch.
This REALLY doesn't belong here.  This is major spoiler in the General forum.  And it includes it in the TITLE noless, without any spoiler warning.

There is a huge segment of the population that does not appreciate spoilers ahead of time, and therefore, would really be annoyed if they were to come across this.  And come across it they will, because the spoiler is in the title in the main general forum. 
This REALLY doesn't belong here.  This is major spoiler in the General forum.  And it includes it in the TITLE noless, without any spoiler warning.

There is a huge segment of the population that does not appreciate spoilers ahead of time, and therefore, would really be annoyed if they were to come across this.  And come across it they will, because the spoiler is in the title in the main general forum. 



Whoops, you're right. I'll delete this and repost after the set is released. Sorry everyone 
You'll forget you ever read this the minute you look away.
Veslfen's House of Bone-Dry Sarcasm
88318561 wrote:
76783093 wrote:
there is nothing "epic" about a turn one victory. ever. or really any magic game, for that matter.
So this one time, I wanted to play a game of Magic with my friend, but he was in another country and neither of us had Magic Online. I hitchhiked my way to the coast, barely fending off hungry wildlife when I couldn't get a ride, nearly dying of thirst crossing deserts, and posoning myself half to death foraging for food. At one point, I was taken hostage by a group of kidnappers, only managing to escape after a week of careful planning thanks to careful application of a rusty spoon. Once I reached the coast, I had no money to buy a ticket across the ocean, so I built a boat using my own two hands, and spent months sailing across the waves, nearly losing my deck as I swam to the shore of a desert island in a storm after being capsized by an enormous wave. Nearly delusional after so long with no human contact (the notches I cut in the single tree to tell time had long since felled the thing) I was eventually rescued by a passing ship, where I was taken aboard as a crew member. We sailed around the world, seeing many exotic places and having great adventures, before we finally arrived at my friend's country. Once more I stumbled across a desolate landscape, riding on train or car when I could, and going on foot when I could not. Eventually, weary to the bone, seven years after I started my journey, I arrived at my friend's house, clutching my well-worn and weathered deck to my chest. We shuffled up our decks, I won the roll. Gleefully, I laid down my cards. Black Lotus. My friend looked quizzically at me, wondering what I was about to do. After so long, he no longer knew what deck I had brought with me to this game. Flash. A knowing smile appears on my friend's face as the knowledge slowly returns to him. Protean Hulk. My friend extends his hand, knowing the game is over before it even started. And finally, after so many trials, the sweet taste of victory is mine.
56866178 wrote:
108166749 wrote:
So no one else is upset with the stunt Wizards just pulled to drive sales?
Drive sales of what? Non-Jace, non-Mystic cards? I'm pretty sure people already own more than eight Magic cards. If you don't, I feel for you. Maybe you can trade those Stoneforge Mystics, which are still quite valuable, for some.
Also, this is a spoiler for Happy Days. Now I don't even want to finish the series.
alright, where the hell did the delete and edit buttons go. Damnit.
You'll forget you ever read this the minute you look away.
Veslfen's House of Bone-Dry Sarcasm
88318561 wrote:
76783093 wrote:
there is nothing "epic" about a turn one victory. ever. or really any magic game, for that matter.
So this one time, I wanted to play a game of Magic with my friend, but he was in another country and neither of us had Magic Online. I hitchhiked my way to the coast, barely fending off hungry wildlife when I couldn't get a ride, nearly dying of thirst crossing deserts, and posoning myself half to death foraging for food. At one point, I was taken hostage by a group of kidnappers, only managing to escape after a week of careful planning thanks to careful application of a rusty spoon. Once I reached the coast, I had no money to buy a ticket across the ocean, so I built a boat using my own two hands, and spent months sailing across the waves, nearly losing my deck as I swam to the shore of a desert island in a storm after being capsized by an enormous wave. Nearly delusional after so long with no human contact (the notches I cut in the single tree to tell time had long since felled the thing) I was eventually rescued by a passing ship, where I was taken aboard as a crew member. We sailed around the world, seeing many exotic places and having great adventures, before we finally arrived at my friend's country. Once more I stumbled across a desolate landscape, riding on train or car when I could, and going on foot when I could not. Eventually, weary to the bone, seven years after I started my journey, I arrived at my friend's house, clutching my well-worn and weathered deck to my chest. We shuffled up our decks, I won the roll. Gleefully, I laid down my cards. Black Lotus. My friend looked quizzically at me, wondering what I was about to do. After so long, he no longer knew what deck I had brought with me to this game. Flash. A knowing smile appears on my friend's face as the knowledge slowly returns to him. Protean Hulk. My friend extends his hand, knowing the game is over before it even started. And finally, after so many trials, the sweet taste of victory is mine.
56866178 wrote:
108166749 wrote:
So no one else is upset with the stunt Wizards just pulled to drive sales?
Drive sales of what? Non-Jace, non-Mystic cards? I'm pretty sure people already own more than eight Magic cards. If you don't, I feel for you. Maybe you can trade those Stoneforge Mystics, which are still quite valuable, for some.
It's gone once other people post.
I'm willing to bet that Flip cards are Garfield's idea. He'd be willing to brave thinking out of the box, since he doesn't have anything to lose by doing so.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)
Aaaayyyyyyyyyyy

 
Link to an article about this?

IMAGE(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/jdealer90/RandomAnimal.jpg)

Everyone knows Magic jumped the shark with Beta. Really Wizards you're printing more cards?

… and then, the squirrels came.
2 cards for the price of one, and people still complain
proud member of the 2011 community team
I'm dead-set against the flipcards.  In the past, Wizards hasn't been shy about using their cardspace in innovative ways i.e. splitcards, kamigawa-flipcards, levelup cards, and each has been met with a certain initial skepticism, but this one goes beyond all of these creations and, in my opinion, essentially disturbs the integrity of the game.  As the press release noted, tens of billions of cards have been printed, and they all had the same backing.  These is no reason to change this.  I can't play poker with marked cards.  Hell, even tarot cards are identical.  I realize that this opens up new design space, and further, I realize that design space is limited, but there has to be lines that don't get crossed.  I play both competetive and casual kitchen-table magic (which, honestly, I prefer).  Some of the people I play with don't play with sleeves.  Yes, Wizards are kind enough to provide checklist cards to use as placeholders, but this bandaid solution is clumsy at best.
This is the fourth consecutive block featuring a severly devisive mechanism: Alara introduced Mythic Rares; Zendikar (well, RotE) had the Eldrazi - creatures that reset the power-level of all creatures; Scars had poison as a main theme; and now, Innistrad changes something that has been a constant for nearly 20 years.  Innovation is important and necessary, but the fact is, each change such as those mentioned above has the potential to alienate casual and existing customers alike.  I will continue to play magic, of course, but I can easily see myself purchasing less of this block, or any block featuring these two-sided cards.  As mentioned before in this thread, mechanisms allready exist that would have achieved the same goal.  This is innovation-for-innovation's sake, which, worst of all, changes a fundamental constant to the game.
Now, had Arabian Nights been printed with that pink card back as originally intended, I'd have a different opinion entirely.

Sorry for this rant-tastic post.  I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
*WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM*

We fear change.
SO I shell out 30$ for a chase rare, and then I have to TAKE IT OUT OF THE SLEAVE in a public card shop while my FOE IS DRINKING COKE?


Or buy some nice clear sleeves and us checklist cards.

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Am I the only one who is actually excited about the new Idea. I have been playing this game for a while, a little over 5 years ago and aI have seen Wizards introduce the Planeswalkers, Mythics, Eldrazi, and Infect. And I really enjoyed all of the new and innovated Ideas. But what I am interested in is if this is only going to be in this set or if they are going to do this again in the future, or if this is only going to be in this block. I know most likely it will stay in just this set, but I can only hope. And for those Doomsayers among you, think about this DId magic die with the creation of the Planeswalkers? No. Mythics? No. So Magic might lose a few customers with the invention of flip cards but it will continue to gain a new audience, who don't know a Magic the Gathering before hand and will like it. This is just my two cents
Thank you for Reading.
SO I shell out 30$ for a chase rare, and then I have to TAKE IT OUT OF THE SLEAVE in a public card shop while my FOE IS DRINKING COKE?


Or buy some nice clear sleeves and us checklist cards.



Okay, that's fair enough.

But what about in 23 years when checklists are are on the new reserved list and they cost $273? What THEN?
I think the expansion of design space is one of the areas that is crucial for WotC to stay in business in the future, and continue to create a sustainable product.

The information and reactions they gather from the potential inherent problems that arise due to this change will actually allow them to adapt to and make the necessary changes in the future, so that a double faced card could become the new standard of magic card in the future, or at the very least becomes a standard for certain mechanics that require that amount of design space on one card.
It's not like we need to use the check lists.

you could just write on a normal magic card the name of the flip card you have and bring the flip card into the game when you play the proxy version.

That being said, i still dont like them.
First point: I'm excited for this.
Second point: I don't like that I need a different card to use it, or waste time flipping.
Second point .2: I don't like the effort of flipping... or damaging tokens/checklists to use them.
Third point: I love that they are using planeshift borders for the night side!

I really want to make a transformation deck... but it can't be the most fun thing in the world... Then again, an entire deck of land, support and non-card cards could also be pretty funny.  I'm not knocking it, I even want to use it, but I don't think it will be recieved well.

Morbid = Winning.
Show
My Decks http://community.wizards.com/vennsvaults/go/forum/viewcategory/138835/Venns_Vaults My Bronation Station http://community.wizards.com/pony My 1000th post! On Thursday 03/13/2011! Yay St. Patric's day. How to play many other Casual Magic Formats http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29198663/?sdb=1&pg=last#521400213 Many of these were on the Magic Resources Site years ago. It was removed around the time 2HG became a sanctioned format. Purple Work Station http://community.wizards.com/purpleworkstation/go/forum/viewboard IMAGE(http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/2/23/Phyrexian_Loyalty.png)
you could just write on a normal magic card the name of the flip card you have and bring the flip card into the game when you play the proxy version.


Sure.  You can also write the words "Black Lotus" on a basic forest and sac it for three mana.  In casual Magic, you can do whatever your playgroup agrees upon.  But in official, sanctioned games, you can only use the official checklist cards (or the two-faced cards themselves, of course) and if any two-faced cards in the deck are represented by a checklist card then all of them have to be.
MTG Rules Advisor since 2007-06-27. Amateur MTG rules nerd since forever. Download the official rules and more at wizards.com/magic/rules -[ IronMagus' New Marketplace Trade Thread ]- 100+ completed trades!
I've got a bad feeling about this...
2 cards for the price of one, and people still complain



They always will. If the cards were free, and printed on gold leaf there would still be somebody complaining. (Ok, so gold leaf cards would crumble the moment you shuffled them, so I might nay-say a bit myself then.) If Magic never came up with new mechanics, would anyone keep playing? It's an intriguing idea, in my humble opinion, and so far I like it. That being said, I may play with them and find it is utter garbage, but really, how can you know if you don't try? Before I tried sushi, it scared the hell out of me. Now, it's my favorite food. Can't say the same for oysters. I'm not sure if the werewolves will be a hassle to use, but the lizard horror looks fun. If the act of taking a card out of the sleeve and flipping it over seems over-exhausting... I would suggest putting MTG down for a minute and exercising. The checklist cards would simplify the flipping task anyway. Tongue out

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/7.jpg)

you could just write on a normal magic card the name of the flip card you have and bring the flip card into the game when you play the proxy version.


Sure.  You can also write the words "Black Lotus" on a basic forest and sac it for three mana.  In casual Magic, you can do whatever your playgroup agrees upon.  But in official, sanctioned games, you can only use the official checklist cards (or the two-faced cards themselves, of course) and if any two-faced cards in the deck are represented by a checklist card then all of them have to be.


Wont most types of sleeves be deemed a satisfactory solution to double-faced cards for pro tour play ?

How about the draft portion: sleeved booster piles = no information revealed ? Like; trust that ppl remember the cards' txt and thus penalize a drafter if he de-sleeves a card briefly during draft ?

SO I shell out 30$ for a chase rare, and then I have to TAKE IT OUT OF THE SLEAVE in a public card shop while my FOE IS DRINKING COKE?


Or buy some nice clear sleeves and us checklist cards.



Okay, that's fair enough.

But what about in 23 years when checklists are are on the new reserved list and they cost $273? What THEN?


I wouldn't worry, Magic's going to be dead in 5 years when WotC ruins the game forever by including twenty dollar bills in every booster.

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
Wont most types of sleeves be deemed a satisfactory solution to double-faced cards for pro tour play ?

How about the draft portion: sleeved booster piles = no information revealed ? Like; trust that ppl remember the cards' txt and thus penalize a drafter if he de-sleeves a card briefly during draft ?



Eh, I don't like that idea.

1a) I like being able to signal clearly that I am not going to take someone else's color in draft.

1b) I like the idea of playing mind games and drafting early doublesided cards when I have no intenton of taking the color, so that others will either hatedraft and try to cut me off, or to surprise people into thinking that the color is actually flooded. I don't know how *effective* it would be, but it's a fun space to play around in.

2) I don't want to pay more for a draft than I have to.

3) Forcing everyone to sleeve the packs as they're opened probably will slow down the drafting process mightly and will lead to even more cheating than the potential problem of people knowing what color you are in.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)
You know, I've only been in like 10-15 drafts in my lifetime, but I'd just like to hazard a guess that "signalling" has been the deciding factor in approximately 0 percent of draft games. Maybe it' just my lack of srsbsns experience but I've never once been like "HOLY **** ONE OF EIGHT PEOPLE IS PLAYING ONE OF THE FIVE COLORS TIME TO MAINDECK SOME DEATHMARKS!"

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
You know, I've only been in like 10-15 drafts in my lifetime, but I'd just like to hazard a guess that "signalling" has been the deciding factor in approximately 0 percent of draft games. Maybe it' just my lack of srsbsns experience but I've never once been like "HOLY **** ONE OF EIGHT PEOPLE IS PLAYING ONE OF THE FIVE COLORS TIME TO MAINDECK SOME DEATHMARKS!"



Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I've also only done about 10-15 drafts), but that's... not what signaling is.

Edit: PS. Deathmark hits two of the five colors. Wink