08/28/2011 Feature: "Innistrad Mechanics"

335 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of the Feature Article Innistrad Mechanics, which goes live Sunday morning on magicthegathering.com.
So, from a rules perspective, are doublefaced cards substantively different from flip cards? (Hoopjumping to deal with their physical structure aside)
Player == Object Instant = Sorcery - Instant


Is there anything else that needs to be said about double-faced cards? No, no, I think that covers everything.

Loving the new "fight" keyword--very nice, clean term there.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

These mechanics are fantastic! I love the double cards, and fight is wonderfully interactive!This is gonna be a great set!
Okay... I am now officially unexcited about having Werewolves as a theme.

Seriously? "You can get bigger if no one casts spells. Oh, and you lose power if people cast lots of spells." Was you paying attention to the Format at ALL when you were designing these cards? ANY format?

Not casting spells is like not breathing. It happens to the unfortunate in magic, and there is NO WAY that any werewolf will be tournament playable under these circumstances. Hell, they might not be playable in Draft!

The Werewolf Chaos Mechanic just bites. Unless there is an enchantment that forces a Moon Phase shift, this preview just sucked all my love for this set out the door.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)
... Doublesided... Garruk?! (Check the placeholder card if you'd like). That aside, transform seems weird, morbid's alright but it depends on how they do it, the return of Flashback is nice although I wasn't around for the first appearance...Curse and Fight both feel a bit unecessary, but I could be very wrong.
Woah! Fight sounds like a great mechanic, and being an evergreen term, hopefully we'll see more of it. I had loads of fun with Cyclops Gladiator since it's release! The return of Flashback also excites me.

Double-faced cards seem fun, and like they could have some great potential. I'm anxious to see some more cards from the set to get a better feel of how they could interact with other cards. Will double-faced foil cards be foil on each side? 
First let me say kudos for Fight. It's clean, elegant, and gives Green a flavorful way to do creature removal. (I'm HOPING there are some green cards that fight without needing red mana, but the choice of a preview for it has me a little worried...) This little trick ALONE answers all my concerns about Green's power level as a color.

Now then... I'm torn on Transform. I love love love the concept, I'll greatly enjoy playing with it, and at the moment Werewolves have just supplanted Vampires as my most-looked-forward-to tribe from Innistrad. However, I'm concerned. Requiring either card sleeves or a proxy card seems a little wacky. What happens in Limited? Will stores be shipped a bunch of the checklist cards for players who didn't think to bring card sleeves to the event? I see no other way to do it. It would be absolutely horrible to show up to a Sealed Deck event, open a bunch of amazing Transform cards, and then be unable to play them because there aren't any checklists to use, and you didn't bring sleeves. This means that Wizards needs to ship a LOT of checklist cards to stores, in case of the rare-but-possible chance of every one of the players opening dozens of transform cards and wanting to play with them. Heck, even guaranteeing a checklist card in every booster doesn't cover this problem, as a booster could (and often will) contain multiple transform cards. And the article makes it sound like a checklist card is a chance happening in place of a token or rules tip.

But if Wizards does ship hundreds of checklist cards to each store qualified to run events (bigger stores may need thousands, if they run enough events for enough people often enough, as the checklists aren't re-useable), I'm absolutely in love with Transform cards. I guess that's Mechanic X, our Day-Night mechanic everyone was mulling over, our "Flip Cards" revisited.

I thought I couldn't get any more excited for Innistrad. I was dead wrong. Innistrad is living up to all the hype (which is impressive considering the level of hype was astronomical). Keep up the amazing work, everyone!
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
These mechanics seem as if they can get too complicated for some players, specially those who are just starting.

In rules for fighting you say that when creatures "fight" they don't tap, yet the example you give, the creature must tap in order too "fight".  Does this mean the creature will still be tapped at the end of the "fight"?

I love the fact that creatures transform.  I just feel the mechanic could have been symplified, but maybe when I actually play the cards it might not seem as complicated.

Freedom's just another word for nothing-left-to-lose. - Kris Kristoferson (sung by Janis Joplin)

 

I personally am excited about the double-faced cardsSealed

i know a lot of people are aprehensive about them, both from a rules and a unfamiliar standpoint, but i'm looking forwards to having a werewolf vs vampire theme in magic without the damn pixie-dust in the modern media *cough*

morbid seems like it's going to go well with the bloodthirst that was brought back in M12.

curses have potential, but i'll need to see more

new keywords to shorten effects is always a plus, especially for the really wordy description in some older cards
I'm really curious why they didn't implement Transform as Kamigawa-style flip cards. As it is, it just seems like a monumental pain in the butt to have to manage these cards in play. And you can't play them at all without sleeves? Unless there's something amazing I'm not seeing, this is the worst mechanic they've ever come up with. And I say this as a veteran player who's not particularly prone to hyperbole.
Okay... I am now officially unexcited about having Werewolves as a theme.

Seriously? "You can get bigger if no one casts spells. Oh, and you lose power if people cast lots of spells." Was you paying attention to the Format at ALL when you were designing these cards? ANY format?

Not casting spells is like not breathing. It happens to the unfortunate in magic, and there is NO WAY that any werewolf will be tournament playable under these circumstances. Hell, they might not be playable in Draft!


Two words for you: "Draw, Go". You still have instants and flash cards for your opponent's turn, and it only flips back if the same player casts two spells in one turn.

The Werewolf Chaos Mechanic just bites.


Nice pun.

... Doublesided... Garruk?! (Check the placeholder card if you'd like). That aside, transform seems weird, morbid's alright but it depends on how they do it, the return of Flashback is nice although I wasn't around for the first appearance...Curse and Fight both feel a bit unecessary, but I could be very wrong.


Wow, nice catch. I didn't actually read the names on the checklist. I guess we know how they'll fit five loyalty abilities on a planeswalker now. And how it'll be balanced.

I agree with you on Curse, but not on Fight. Fight is something that Green sorely needs, and with it keyworded we'll now see more of it. Curse, though, does seem like Traps; hopefully more than just two cards care about it. I'm still excited for it on a flavor level, though.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
Is there any reason double faced cards wouldn't just work better if they'd be like Kamigawa flip cards (Outside of getting less rules text space)? Transforming cards like this makes my stomach turn.

Turning cards inside shields or using lists that works as proxies!? Not liking it at all. Flipping a card around would be much more elegant solution. 
You shoulda reprinted flip cards.
REQUIRING A CARD TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE SLEEVE? YOU ****ING SERIOUS?
Transorm is a cool mechanic, but I'm really disappointed by the chosen implementation; concealing your strategy is a very important aspect of drafting, and I really don't see a reasonable way to hide the fact that you took a Transform card. The best I can think of would be to have a deckbox sitting in your lap or something and just drop all of your picks straight in there, but that could get very shady. This really should have been done with tokens or split cards... as it stands, this completely turns me off to drafting Innistrad.
Unless I missed it while reading the article, I didn't see where it mentioned where double-faced cards will be available in foil and if so, whether both sides will be foiled or just the 'day' side.
You shoulda reprinted flip cards.
REQUIRING A CARD TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE SLEEVE? YOU ****ING SERIOUS?




PWalkers have insanely long text boxes and would be prohibitive for flip cards.
I reserve judgment of the new abilities until I see the rest of the Innistrad cards. But I'm happy to see Fight get keyworded.
From this point on, there will be players confused by double-sided cards. Innistrad block will eventually be long gone and casual players won't be able to find placeholder cards, or even know that they exist. There will be a lot of people shuffling double-siders into their decks, a lot of double-siders saying hi from hands, and kitchen table cheaters stacking their decks.

This is quite possibly the worst mechanic imaginable for the sake of casual play.

The cards themsevles seem pretty neat though.
Well, call me pessimistic... But the Transform mechanic is seriously awkward.  I'm pretty disappointed at all the problems this is definitely going to cause.  Fun idea, poorly executed.
Photobucket My Trade Thread: The_Fringer's Mercantile Plane (Updated: 1/13/11)
Transform is a cool mechanic with horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE implementation. Seriously, awful. I don't want to play it, I don't want to play against it, it's terrible, terribly, terrible. I was just getting back into Magic and now this happens. Guess I'm not getting back into Magic. Thank you Wizards in putting the money back in my wallet.

Double-sided cards? Checklist cards? Are you SERIOUS? If this wasn't a kid friendly site, I would be using explitives. Seriously. AWFUL.
...so what happens when you mix the morph mechanic with the transform mechanic?
You shoulda reprinted flip cards.
REQUIRING A CARD TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE SLEEVE? YOU ****ING SERIOUS?



I plan on sleeving up a land where I wrote the name and CMC of the flip card or one of those checklist, and when I cast the card, just put the actual flip card on top of the proxy.

 Will stores be shipped a bunch of the checklist cards for players who didn't think to bring card sleeves to the event? I see no other way to do it. 



Or you could ask someone for a pen or a sharpie and write it on a land. That someone could also be a store clerk. I say that Wizards should mail stores tons of sharpies to make proxies.

I'm guessing at official tournaments or bigger-than-just-FNMs events you'd have to check with the head judge to approve of your proxy or they'll hand you out one of the checklist.


Seriously? "You can get bigger if no one casts spells. Oh, and you lose power if people cast lots of spells." Was you paying attention to the Format at ALL when you were designing these cards? ANY format? 


Draw, Go is very common, specially in draft. You don't always have a perfect curve and some of your spells are instants you are planning to cast during your opponent turn. Welcome to the game of Magic.

These mechanics seem as if they can get too complicated for some players, specially those who are just starting.



I feel the mechanics will play smoother than what they seem. Also, these are "expert" sets, which means new people might have a higher-than-regular learning curve.  I know some people at my LGS got overwhelmed drafting Scars of Mirrodin.
Come on Wizards, admit it. You want us to buy the transform cards twice, so that we don't have the fear of accidentaly damaging the card while taking it in and out of the sleeve.

I like the mechanic, though it still bugs me why kamigawa's flip thing did not came back, but there's no way of me removing the sleeve from a card I like.
I don't think I like transform. we'll see how it plays out, but the article about how they work did a great job pointing out all the issues. it just felt like there were a lot of really obvious issues and for each one they tried to cover it up with a bandaid.

still, it was gonna happen eventually.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
how does a transformed permanent go to the graveyard?  flipped cards turned right side up.  Do these flip to day as well?  or would there ever be a werewolf in the GY?  Only asking cause of all the great GY tricks in casual
how does a transformed permanent go to the graveyard?  flipped cards turned right side up.  Do these flip to day as well?  or would there ever be a werewolf in the GY?  Only asking cause of all the great GY tricks in casual

The relevant side of the card is the "front;" the day side. Yes, they would still be a werewolf in the graveyard because that's part of the both sides creature types. All I've read says that the "night" side is only relevant when in play.
 I love the old school gothic horror feel of the set but so far I am not liking the mechanics that much. Rewarding a player for not playing spells just seems very unfun to me. I know some of the transformation mechanics work differently than that but werewolves are one of the cooler aspects of the horror setting and it seems a waste to make them all work the same lame way. Perhaps later werewolf cards in the next sets can "force" their transformations? Who knows. Anyway I am disapointed so far but I'm still hopeful that I will like the set more as more cards are revealed.
how does a transformed permanent go to the graveyard?  flipped cards turned right side up.  Do these flip to day as well?  or would there ever be a werewolf in the GY?  Only asking cause of all the great GY tricks in casual


From the article:

A double-faced card always enters the battlefield with its front face up. This is true whether it enters the battlefield from the stack as the result of being cast, or from anywhere else, such as your graveyard (due to a card like Zombify, for example).

[...]


The back face's characteristics matter only if the card is on the battlefield and its back face is showing. Otherwise, only the front face's characteristics count. (For example, Gatstaf Shepherd's converted mana cost when it's in your deck is 2, not zero.)



So the answer is yes, it flips to day whenever it goes from the battlefield to any other zone. So if you Momentary Blink it it comes back on the day side. If it dies, it becomes the day side in the graveyard.


 


And to everyone upset about them not using regular flip cards... I may be a little uneasy about cards without backs, but flip cards would have severely limited what could be put in the text boxes. I doubt there'd be room for anything more than the Transform ability, which means we'd get nothing but vanillas flipping into vanillas.  Definitely no Garruk Relentless. Worth forever changing the game? Only time will tell, but I'm optimistic at least.


 


Edit: One more thing, which surprisingly hasn't been mentioned yet. The Planar Chaos card frames are back! I'm glad those weren't a one-and-done thing, they looked pretty neat.

IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
From this point on, there will be players confused by double-sided cards. Innistrad block will eventually be long gone and casual players won't be able to find placeholder cards, or even know that they exist. There will be a lot of people shuffling double-siders into their decks, a lot of double-siders saying hi from hands, and kitchen table cheaters stacking their decks.

This is quite possibly the worst mechanic imaginable for the sake of casual play.

The cards themsevles seem pretty neat though.



Yeah, I expect that years from now people will be tired of having to make exceptions to the universal magic card back for what is probably going to be a one-off block gimmick.  I fully expect that the cards themselves will be fun to play with, but I doubt that they will be something that will age well.

not seeing why people are hating on transform. using one card for the whole thing is much more elegant that providing people with tokens (and they'll need to manage to get the right one, which would be difficult), and kamigawa flip cards simply don't have enough space to make even a remotely detailed card (good luck fitting a planeswalker onto a flip card). it's not hard to get sleeves either, and the checklist is a convenient way to have a proxy without too much hassle.

fight is a nice, clean mechanic, and is much less wordy than the alternative. this is good.

curses will be dependent on each individual card, since enchanting a player isn't groundbreaking.

morbid is interesting but seems as though it will conflict strongly with bloodthirst. do you burn the creature for morbid, or the player for bloodthirst? although i guess bloodthirst is only used in limited so oh well.

overall i am very pleased with this thus far.
how does a transformed permanent go to the graveyard?

The same way all other cards do: with the "day" side up. The "night" side can only exist on the battlefield.


...I have to ask. What's up with the hate for possibly needing to take the card out of the sleeve? I've seen it a couple times now, and I just don't get it. At all.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I'm new to Magic. I started with M12. I collected near complete playset of the last core set cards. I love it. I was happy that Innistrad is comming and now I'm very, very disappointed becouse of one thing: two faced cards. Horrible, terible, awfull. I'm not going to buy even one booster of Innistrad. A person responsible for transform and two faced card should take a long break.
O...M...G!!!

Wizards is truly crazy. These double-sided cards are changing one of the most basic aspects of ALL card games, TCGs and traditional card games like poker included. While it's definately bizzare, it's exactly what MaRo was talking about when he said Innistrad was a totally top-down block. The flavor is just dripping off the cardboard. The logistics do seem awkward, but I think many of you all are just flippin' over such a drastic change. Obviously these guys know what they're doing. Using proxy basics is a simple way to solve some of the issues; ive been using proxy lands to playtest decks for years. And I use penny sleaves around my cards before I put them into standard protectors, so even if I have to take a card out and flip it I still won't be touching the card's surface with my fingers. I thought that Phyrxian mana would change the game forever; Innistrad is going to change everything.
...so what happens when you mix the morph mechanic with the transform mechanic?



Transmorph

You may play this card as a face-down 2/2 for 3. Flip it at any time by paying its transmorph cost (it's other side is also face-down).
how does a transformed permanent go to the graveyard?

The same way all other cards do: with the "day" side up. The "night" side can only exist on the battlefield.


...I have to ask. What's up with the hate for possibly needing to take the card out of the sleeve? I've seen it a couple times now, and I just don't get it. At all.



Sleeves are meant to protect the card from damage and wear that occurs when a card is directly handled.  Having a card that you have to continually pull out of the sleeve and put back in actually increases the wear and tear on that card, which kinda defeats the purpose of the sleeve in the first place.
I'm new to Magic. I started with M12. I collected near complete playset of last core set cards. I love it. I was happy that Innistrad is comming and now I'm very, very disappointed becouse of one thing: two faced cards. Horrible, terible, awfull. I'm not going to buy even one booster of Innistrad.


Your loss. I'll be buying enough to make up for what you're not buying, I'm sure

Person responsible for transform and two faced card should take a long break.


Richard Garfield himself was on this design team. The man who made the game in the first place. Do you really think he should never design again just because of an innovative, original idea which adds so much flavor to the game? This isn't a loaded question at all Wink
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
how does a transformed permanent go to the graveyard?

The same way all other cards do: with the "day" side up. The "night" side can only exist on the battlefield.


...I have to ask. What's up with the hate for possibly needing to take the card out of the sleeve? I've seen it a couple times now, and I just don't get it. At all.

People trying to nit-pick anyway they want. You know how it goes, Wizards releases a new mechanic on a new set and it's like letting dogs run wild in Freakoutville. They threaten with quitting the game after they "finally came back after several years," but as dogs they bark but don't bite.
Damage done in a fight does not count as combat damage. One of those things that makes no sense outside of MTG

Not looking forward to the cards that don't have magic backs. Wtf. The rest of it is good though. I wanna see some new flashback cards!

Richard Garfield himself was on this design team. The man who made the game in the first place. Do you really think he should never design again just because of an innovative, original idea which adds so much flavor to the game? This isn't a loaded question at all


I know who Richard Garfield is. I hope he is not the person responsible for the idea of taking the cards out of sleeves.


Having a card that you have to continually pull out of the sleeve and put back in actually increases the wear and tear on that card, which kinda defeats the purpose of the sleeve in the first place.


+1

Hey guys, simple solutions for those crying that they have to take their cards out of a sleeve. Grab a land, write the name of the card there and put that on a sleeve instead. Then put your beloved flip card on a penny sleeve. Don't have one? Don't worry, they're not worth much, about a penny for sleeve or so ;). If not, I'm pretty sure a person sitting close to you might have some.