08/29/2011 MM

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Shouldn't Homicidal Brute have the text: "Homicidal Brute is red"?  The color of a card is derived from its mana cost, and the mana cost of this (if it has one) is blue.

Unless they're changing this rule too (though I don't see why they would need to)?

EDIT: I double checked, and I guess that dot in the type line is supposed to tell you it is red.  I'm still not sure how this is better than the text solution, or how it helps color blind people (the phyrexian mana had reminder text).
hmmmmm...!

pre-reveal speculation:

theres no way they would make double faced cards to represent transforming cards, because, well- because of things like drafts

(card is revealed later that night)

initial reaction:  

double faced cards feel problematic to me
 
second thoughts:

actually after looking over the rules article on double faced cards a couple times, i feel a lot more comfortable with them, and the day/night mechanic feels most appropriate with flip cards like this to me, overall i like how the sets turning out so far

conclusion:

innistrad is going to be awesome!!! lol :p
Seems ... interesting. Happy to see zombies making a revival. Werewolves may be problematic, but they do seem kind of cool. If not, they can be ignored no problem.
I have two compliants with this new 'transform' thing (and I've been playing for over ten years, so I have seen some poorly executed mechanics from Wizards during my time).  One, it seems that on some level, we now have these transform cards in Magic because they were popular in DuelMasters.  Well, Magic is not DuelMasters, the audience is older and more mature, and the game is much harder and skill intensive.  It is the Wall Street Journal of the CCG world, and I for one like it that way.  I know, I know, transform could potentially lead to interesting gameplay states, but you would have a hard time convincing me that those states would be sufficiently more interesting than if transform cards were based on another design (perhaps based off of Kamigawa flip cards).

The second thing I have noticed is that Mark Rosewater does not like to take even one step back when faced with a problem.  When he first noticed there were issues with flip cards, the article implied that he immediatley began to look for how to solve those issues (and in this regard, he was successful, as transform is in the set).  However, it might have been wiser to take a step back, and realize that a) in order to make transform work, radical change (removing the freaking backs of the cards!) would have to take place and b) the gameplay benefits that transform offers can be arrived at through other implementations of the mechanic.

What transform does have going for it though is top down flavour.  I think this highlights the real danger of designing cards based on flavour, which is that you start seeing cards as representations of individual concepts and less as a part of the whole system.  Magic is more than a game, it is an institution, with a really devoted player base.  Certain decisions undertaken in the name of a more flavourful experience that require change for the sake of change ultimately put a gimmick aspect into the game, and this newfound gimmickery in all likelihood may do serious damage to the game.
I never really like flip cards for the same reason Mark explained. It's too much information in such a little space. Might as well not have the art.

Also, all the people that are complaining about the sleeves seems to nit-pick a bit too much. There's always gonna be complainers everytime R&D goes out of the box.

Personally, I love the set and I love the idea of top-down design. All Magic really needed was to tell a story and these sets seems to be doing better and better. 
I'd rather play with merfolk looter, do you know how many times that 1 point of power has allowed me to enable bloodthirst in draft? And I'd rather not discard a creature in limited if I can help it. Love the flavor text though.

I'm very interested to hear more about this "Werewolf Mechanic".  It seems like it might be difficult to keep your Werwolves in their stronger wolf form, I really do hope that you included a few Curse Auras or equivilant in the set which helps you to limit the number of spells that your opponent can cast in a turn, either by physically putting a limit on the numer of spells they can cast each turn or by increasing the cost of each spell that they try to cast.


Also, DFCs take up the slot of a common?  Sounds like we're going to end up with a ton of them...

See that inexplicable email address at the bottom of the article?

I sent it an email, and I received a clue.

Alas, I did not win a prize.

I'm very interested to hear more about this "Werewolf Mechanic".  It seems like it might be difficult to keep your Werwolves in their stronger wolf form, I really do hope that you included a few Curse Auras or equivilant in the set which helps you to limit the number of spells that your opponent can cast in a turn, either by physically putting a limit on the numer of spells they can cast each turn or by increasing the cost of each spell that they try to cast.


Also, DFCs take up the slot of a common?  Sounds like we're going to end up with a ton of them...




How could a non-silver bordered card physically stop someone from cast spells?

I'm very interested to hear more about this "Werewolf Mechanic".  It seems like it might be difficult to keep your Werwolves in their stronger wolf form, I really do hope that you included a few Curse Auras or equivilant in the set which helps you to limit the number of spells that your opponent can cast in a turn, either by physically putting a limit on the numer of spells they can cast each turn or by increasing the cost of each spell that they try to cast.


Also, DFCs take up the slot of a common?  Sounds like we're going to end up with a ton of them...




How could a non-silver bordered card physically stop someone from cast spells?



Arcane Laboratory.  Ensures that your Werewolves stay in wolf form.
Nobody liked the flip cards from Kamigawa not so much because they were a poor concept, but that they in themselves were terrible. They were, more or less universally, some combination of being too annoying to flip or too weak once flipped or too overcosted to be worth the risk of not getting them flipped. I think that's one of the reasons transforming cards will do so much better: They aren't annoying beyond reason to flip.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)

I'm very interested to hear more about this "Werewolf Mechanic".  It seems like it might be difficult to keep your Werwolves in their stronger wolf form, I really do hope that you included a few Curse Auras or equivilant in the set which helps you to limit the number of spells that your opponent can cast in a turn, either by physically putting a limit on the numer of spells they can cast each turn or by increasing the cost of each spell that they try to cast.


Also, DFCs take up the slot of a common?  Sounds like we're going to end up with a ton of them...




How could a non-silver bordered card
physically
stop someone from cast spells?



Arcane Laboratory.  Ensures that your Werewolves stay in wolf form.




I'm very interested to hear more about this "Werewolf Mechanic".  It seems like it might be difficult to keep your Werwolves in their stronger wolf form, I really do hope that you included a few Curse Auras or equivilant in the set which helps you to limit the number of spells that your opponent can cast in a turn, either by physically putting a limit on the numer of spells they can cast each turn or by increasing the cost of each spell that they try to cast.


Also, DFCs take up the slot of a common?  Sounds like we're going to end up with a ton of them...




How could a non-silver bordered card
physically
stop someone from cast spells?



Arcane Laboratory.  Ensures that your Werewolves stay in wolf form.





Huh.

A poor choice of words I suppose, literally would have been better.  Sorry.
Let's not forget that the Kamigawa flip cards were eyesores, whereas DFCs transform into the Planar Chaos Timeshift frame (!!!!). Now that's an incentive to go for the flip!

I'm withholding judgment on how bad the logistics are, but I'm cautiously optimistic, and aesthetically giddy.
Now I'm imagining arm wrestling matches over the ability to cast spells... XD
Stop using "IMO" in sentences that aren't opinion. If you don't think a deck will ever be tier 1, that's great - but it's not an opinion. It's a prediction of the future. I identify as neither male nor female. You may refer to me with either gender pronoun or the singular they, whichever suits you best. ^_^ Re: Dismember
97543238 wrote:
Everybody knows that having your awesome creatures killed before they can do anything is frustrating, but the Red mage in me doesn't seem to understand why it's so bad when his creatures spontaneously combust into Flame Javelins and make his opponent discard something at the same time.
Currently Working On: Self-Mill (Standard)
Tentatively I think double-faced cards should be fine.  The obvious is that if you don't like them, you don't have to play them yourself...  and if wear & tear on sleeves is a concern, just get a sleeved checklist card, and have a both-sides-transparent sleeve for the double-faced card.  No handling the card then, just flip it over.

Anyway, since Mark is the person most likely to care about this element...  My main flavor complaint with the way Magic is handling werewolves, it seems, is that werewolves are actually being useful for the Planeswalker bossing them around.  Treacherous Werewolf (will get some creature type errata in the next update, right?) sort of has the double-edged nature, but if we're talking flavor, the thing with werewolves is that their two sides are at war.  Whatever the human wants, the werewolf destroys - not just people the human hates, but those they love too.  Anything, really.  Of course, that is extremely awkward to represent on a Magic card - who would want to play a werewolf that turns around and attacks you, or its fellow creatures?  So the werewolf is just a powered-up version of the same guy with the same agenda and the same friends in Innistrad, which seems a bit awkward.  I guess it's fine if this is some kind of werewolf-alliance and the human forms are gleefully collaborating with their werewolf selves, but I hope there's some kind of nod to the self-destructive nature of werewolves somewhere - "Target creature becomes a werewolf, gets +2/+2, and fights another creautre of your choice?"
Shouldn't Homicidal Brute have the text: "Homicidal Brute is red"?  The color of a card is derived from its mana cost, and the mana cost of this (if it has one) is blue.

Unless they're changing this rule too (though I don't see why they would need to)?

EDIT: I double checked, and I guess that dot in the type line is supposed to tell you it is red.  I'm still not sure how this is better than the text solution, or how it helps color blind people (the phyrexian mana had reminder text).



I was going to ask the same question... how, under the rules, Homicidal Brute could be red with a blue mana cost.  I did notice the dot in the typeline in other flip cards, but I didn't make the connection to it being something important to the rules.  You are probably right, but it's a strange that it wasn't mentioned in the article.

Another thing, some people were wondering about/hoping for a card that forced transformations, as the trigger for the transformation to werewolf (not playing spells) can initially read as unfun.  There was a green card revealed tonight (at PAX and now in the Card Gallery) that not only triggers transformation, but also acts as a mini one sided fog.

Another interesting question was answered today on Maro's twitter... foil DSCs are foiled on both sides.  I can't wait to crack one, even if it isn't that good a card, it will look awesome.
~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~ (Click a deck's name to see list) [] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard) [] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad [] Devouring Tokens (Planechase, Multiplayer) [] Krark-Clan Ironworks: 2012 Edition (Modern) [] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)

I grant the flip cards were imperfect, but these double-face cards do seem more awkward.  For paper players of course.  Us online folks would be fine if you went for triple-face cards.


Also I really don't get how "no spells" = night and "two spells" = day.  I suppose I could force a justification but it's really not dripping with flavor the way it's been implied.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

Wait, if both sides are foiled, which way does the card bend?
See that inexplicable email address at the bottom of the article?

I sent it an email, and I received a clue.

Alas, I did not win a prize.



Oh.
Thanks for pointing that out!
I'm really liking this more immersive environment that WotC is trying to create.
I'm a little bit tense since I know it's a horror genre, which is making me so much more excited for the set. 
Stop using "IMO" in sentences that aren't opinion. If you don't think a deck will ever be tier 1, that's great - but it's not an opinion. It's a prediction of the future. I identify as neither male nor female. You may refer to me with either gender pronoun or the singular they, whichever suits you best. ^_^ Re: Dismember
97543238 wrote:
Everybody knows that having your awesome creatures killed before they can do anything is frustrating, but the Red mage in me doesn't seem to understand why it's so bad when his creatures spontaneously combust into Flame Javelins and make his opponent discard something at the same time.
Currently Working On: Self-Mill (Standard)
I don't think Innistrad is going to kill Magic, but it might ultimately kill paper Magic.
two questions so far:

1 - is the "other" face side public knowledge, or hidden knowledge?

If it is hidden knowledge, then why is the P/T of the night side hidden on the day side?

If it is public knowledge, then why is none of the day side info on the night side, and only the P/T on the day side?

Doesn't seem to be even knowledge distribution either way.  An official answer on this would be nice (although I'm sure we will have one by pre-release events).

By comparison, only the controller of a face-down creature can know what it is, so... still not sure which way the DFCs would go.

2 - color identity for DFCs with different colors on the two faces.  Will make a difference for things like Commander and Rainbow where they can be used and how.
My first reaction to the double faced mechanic was that it is absolutely awful.  After a good night's sleep, my second reaction... well, it is the same as my first.  Double faced cards are a terrible way to execute an otherwise cool idea.

I try not to be a Chicken Little and cry that the sky is falling every time you guys change something.  For the most part, I support your changes.  But when I look at these cards, my heart just sinks.  The double faced cards destroy such a simple and fundamental part of the game and add so much unnecessary complexity to pretty much everything.  You should have found a better way.  Double faced cards feel like a stupid gimmick.

For me, it is extra personal and extra sad because my world for the Great Designer Search 2 had a gothic horror theme.  I was so excited to see your set progressing in real life.  Nearly every step of the way, I felt you were doing everything right - the flavor, the art, the return of Flashback, the monster tribal themes, the references to classic horror instead of modern slasher horror.  It was great, and I was super excited.  I'm actually amazed how much of a 180 my feelings took when I saw the double faced cards.  You guys really managed to drain all the excitement right out from me with this terrible design.

For your reference, I'm 32 and have been playing for 16 years, half my life.  I don't think double faced cards will kill Magic or anything like that, but you've definitely lost the faith of this fan.
something I haven't seen anywhere...

is the "other" face side public knowledge, or hidden knowledge?

If it is hidden knowledge, then why is the P/T of the night side hidden on the day side?

If it is public knowledge, then why is none of the day side info on the night side, and only the P/T on the day side?

Doesn't seem to be even knowledge distribution either way.  An official answer on this would be nice (although I'm sure we will have one by pre-release events).

By comparison, only the controller of a face-down creature can know what it is, so... still not sure which way the DFCs would go.


The back of a two faced card is public knowledge.  It would have to be, considering that each face goes with one other face (so that if you know the cards, and you see one face, you would know the other).  The power and toughness is presumably there to give opponents a rough idea of the creature's transformed state without flipping it, but the text is too cumbersome to reprint.  And I would guess there is no day P/T for the night side, because presumably you've already seen that face (and also because some creatures don't transform back).

But this does seem to point out that the design of two faced cards must have been fraught with a huge number of aesthetic decisions.  I would have liked to have heard more about that end of it (why they indicate the color of the second face with a dot for instance) in this column, but I guess that it was already a pretty long column.
Wait, if both sides are foiled, which way does the card bend?


Mind = Blown


Also I really don't get how "no spells" = night and "two spells" = day.  I suppose I could force a justification but it's really not dripping with flavor the way it's been implied.



From what Mark said, in the day you become more active, ie, cast 2 spell. I saw another post in the Speculation section about how without magic to calm the beast it is freed. I liked that more, but the active in day works too I guess.


The second thing I have noticed is that Mark Rosewater does not like to take even one step back when faced with a problem.  When he first noticed there were issues with flip cards, the article implied that he immediatley began to look for how to solve those issues (and in this regard, he was successful, as transform is in the set).  However, it might have been wiser to take a step back, and realize that a) in order to make transform work, radical change (removing the freaking backs of the cards!) would have to take place and b) the gameplay benefits that transform offers can be arrived at through other implementations of the mechanic.


This I disagree with. I think Mark stresses that no matter how hard he tried to figure out how to not use the double sided he couldn't a way, so he went with this since it was the only thing that really captured the feeling of transfromation that they wanted.

Personally I like the mechanic a lot. Yes, it does feel like it has problems, but my gut says when you play with them it should feel a lot more fluid then it does on paper. I'm more then happy to see how this plays. 

I grant the flip cards were imperfect, but these double-face cards do seem more awkward.  For paper players of course.  Us online folks would be fine if you went for triple-face cards.


Also I really don't get how "no spells" = night and "two spells" = day.  I suppose I could force a justification but it's really not dripping with flavor the way it's been implied.


Really?  I thought that was a very flavorful way to indicate day/night...  At night, everyone's asleep so nothing's really happening (no spells).  Then in the morning everyone wakes up and makes themselves busy with making breakfast, feeding the chickens, chopping wood, or whatever your own routine happens to be (2 spells or more).
While I'm excited about Innistrad, and (though skeptical) prepared to reserve judgement on transform until I've used it a few times, I have to wonder...wouldn't morph (with some kind of conditional trigger) worked just as well?
See that inexplicable email address at the bottom of the article?

I sent it an email, and I received a clue.

Alas, I did not win a prize.



Was it the same as mine? We should figure out if they're sending the smae thing to everyone, or if there's a set of 'em.


I knew it was the right thing to do, I knew it was what Pitre would
have wanted.  Beheading is the only way to keep someone from turning,
and there was no way to be sure whether he had been bitten or not.
But now my hands are forever stained, so I have decided to turn them
over to Avacyn.

For these reasons, and many more, I beseech you to admit me to your
humble order.  I have no reason to remain here in Gavony.

Your sister in Avacyn,

Jorelda.

--
twitter.com/brauerjosh



Edit: I Should note that Josh Brauer's icon on both Twitter and Youtube is the classic Sengir Vampire.
If you can see one face of the card (e.g. it's on the battlefield, it's in a graveyard, it's in your opponent's hand while you resolve Duress), then you can look at the other face.
Wait, if both sides are foiled, which way does the card bend?

LOL... good point.  I hate foils for that very reason. I usually give them away to my friends if they're not really valuable.  I really hate foils and would not be disappointed if they ever decided to stop printing them.
Wait, if both sides are foiled, which way does the card bend?

LOL... good point.  I hate foils for that very reason. I usually give them away to my friends if they're not really valuable.  I really hate foils and would not be disappointed if they ever decided to stop printing them.



Wait till we find out they bend both ways, which means the sides of the cards will naturally "rip open".

Suddenly, regular foils don't look that bad after all.   
two questions so far:

1 - is the "other" face side public knowledge, or hidden knowledge?

If it is hidden knowledge, then why is the P/T of the night side hidden on the day side?

If it is public knowledge, then why is none of the day side info on the night side, and only the P/T on the day side?

Doesn't seem to be even knowledge distribution either way.  An official answer on this would be nice (although I'm sure we will have one by pre-release events).

By comparison, only the controller of a face-down creature can know what it is, so... still not sure which way the DFCs would go.

2 - color identity for DFCs with different colors on the two faces.  Will make a difference for things like Commander and Rainbow where they can be used and how.

The night face of the card is public knowledge.  So if there is ever any situation in which you can see the day face of the card, you can also look at the night face.


I think they only did the P/T on the day face because they assume if you are looking at the night face, you've already seen the day face and don't need the quick reference.

But the reverse P/T is on the day face so you don't have to turn it around to see what it will become in case you want to Shock it in response to the flip trigger going on the stack.  Of course, if you want to see the abilities too you are allowed to look at the other face.  It's just a quick reference so people aren't constantly flipping cards back and forth and more visual so they aren't "surprised" by anything.

It's easy to "think outside the box" when you continually rip big holes in it...

Why this was a reasonable outcome, confuses me so much.

See that inexplicable email address at the bottom of the article?

I sent it an email, and I received a clue.

Alas, I did not win a prize.



Was it the same as mine? We should figure out if they're sending the smae thing to everyone, or if there's a set of 'em.


I knew it was the right thing to do, I knew it was what Pitre would
have wanted.  Beheading is the only way to keep someone from turning,
and there was no way to be sure whether he had been bitten or not.
But now my hands are forever stained, so I have decided to turn them
over to Avacyn.

For these reasons, and many more, I beseech you to admit me to your
humble order.  I have no reason to remain here in Gavony.

Your sister in Avacyn,

Jorelda.

--
twitter.com/brauerjosh



Edit: I Should note that Josh Brauer's icon on both Twitter and Youtube is the classic Sengir Vampire.



I got the same message. The Sengir Vampire art is also on his profile on this site. The video posted on his Youtube was also posted in Russian by someone named bassethound85 with the same description on the 24th, and he has since come forth with some clearer pictures, though the text on all but Travel Preparations is faded. I'm interested to see where this is going.
If you can see one face of the card (e.g. it's on the battlefield, it's in a graveyard, it's in your opponent's hand while you resolve Duress), then you can look at the other face.




Thank you for this quick reply.  I had assumed this was the answer, but it helps to have an official ruling
While I'm excited about Innistrad, and (though skeptical) prepared to reserve judgement on transform until I've used it a few times, I have to wonder...wouldn't morph (with some kind of conditional trigger) worked just as well?

I don't think this would have worked within the current rules of Magic because Morph doesn't use the stack, it's just something that happens.


But triggered abilities do use the stack, so you can't really have a Morph ability that activates off a trigger.

Besides, if it's face down, how would you know if it's a werewolf or a vampire or whatever?  It would lose a lot of the flavor that they're going for by making werewolves if it comes down as a 2/2 colorless creature with no types.    
Why is the werewolf trigger something that happens at the beginning of the upkeep, and looks back to the previous turn, rather than just triggering at the end of turn? Referencing a previous turn seems rather inelegant.

But I guess the entire think reeks of awkward confusion. Reading the TWO rules articles about transformation was enough of a headache. I doubt I will be able to remember the details about how two faced cards work with morph, cloning etc.

Plus, the checklist card... that is beyond words...

Guess time will tell if this works.

But I guess the entire think reeks of awkward confusion. Reading the TWO rules articles about transformation was enough of a headache. I doubt I will be able to remember the details about how two faced cards work with morph, cloning etc.

Plus, the checklist card... that is beyond words...

Guess time will tell if this works.


What is so confusing? When X happens flip the card. In the deck it is a proxy or sleeved. In draft hide the cards. They can't be flipped face down (if I remember from my readings). Clones copy what ever card is showing and can't flip.
I think the transform mechanic is very flavorful and done as simply as it could have been within the boundaries of the rules.

The only thing I worry about is cheaters and inexperienced players putting more than one of the checklist cards in their deck to represent the same card.  I can see this being a headache for judges at larger events.

And on a completely unrelated topic... Can anyone please tell me how the HECK to change my screen name?  I'm tired of being referred to as Guest182532702  :-(  I changed my "full name for display" in my profile but that didn't seem to do anything.  Much appreciated if you can help    
I LOVE the idea of being able to flip cards over in play. That does indeed seem like the best way to tackle a card transforming.

However, the checklist card, and having to pull a card out of a sleeve to flip it over, are both... Well, crazy sounding. I'm not really looking forward to that aspect. Seems about as inelegent as the mechanic could possibly be.

I guess I'm not really against transform though. I'll enjoy trying it out, at a very minimum.
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