08/26/2011 TWTW: "Modern Warfare"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's The Week That Was, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

The twelvepost decklist did not have twelve posts.  Is 8 of the forests 4x Vesuva and 4x Glimmerpost?
The twelvepost decklist did not have twelve posts.  Is 8 of the forests 4x Vesuva and 4x Glimmerpost?



That's the first thing I thought when I saw Nassif's list.
The twelvepost decklist did not have twelve posts.  Is 8 of the forests 4x Vesuva and 4x Glimmerpost?



That's the first thing I thought when I saw Nassif's list.


The article explains this:

The origins of TwelvePost go back to Pro Tour Kobe and Pro Tour Hall of Famer Gabriel Nassif. The format for the event was Mirrodin Block Constructed and Nassif played a Tooth and Nail deck that ramped into and entwined the game-breaking card with Cloudpost—and eight more virtual Cloudposts in the form of Sylvan Scrying and Reap and Sow to fetch additional copies.



It's four literal posts and eight post-fetchers: "twelve" posts. The deck was Mirrodin Block Constructed, so it couldn't have run Vesuva and Glimmerpost. They didn't exist yet!
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There are also UG and mono-blue Modern 12-post decks that may be good - Gifts Ungiven is very strong. The mono-green version is just the fastest one though.

Ivo. 
Am I the only one who notices that lightning axe, emrakul and goryo's vengeance are a three card combo? Inconsistant suckage.
IMAGE(http://www.projektstarwars.de/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=16432&dateline=1299412590) Fallen Star Verlag Play Legacy! Decks: Legacy Natural Order/Hulk EDH Iname, Death Aspect / Rosheen Meanderer Casual Elves! I petition for the removal of the mythic rarity.
monoblue 12post is a bit too slow....
UG is decent though...balance of speed and permission...and its better against the mirrors

im surprised there is no hardcore monored land destruction deck against all these 12post, shock-lands, reflecting pools
turn one: flagstones of trokair+simian spirit guide+boom (boom//bust),
turn 2 rite of flame+blood moon...continue destroying with molten rains and fulminator mages

game finishers with magnivore/deus of calamity
sideboard the deck with slagstorms and shattering sprees against zoo/affinity

So this is why the Urzatron isn't played much any more.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

so ban cloudpost i dare u cuz how are u going to explain that one oh we did not know it would be that good turn 3 wins all the way i see it know un ban jace ms format is to fast need to slow it down un ban sfm we need cards that can kill faster

bantman543 makes a valid point.  Wizards has been in the habit lately of printing strong threats without a good answer for them.  The most obvious one recently was JtMS.  Printing lands that are this good is problematic as there is no good answer in the format.  To beat 12 post, you basically have play red for bloodmoons, dedicated land destruction (which loses to anything else) or counter/disrupt everything that they try to do.  It's the same thing as caw blade before the bannings.  JtMS  was good enough alone that opponents had to respect just him but in addition the deck had a completely separate strategy which is still very competetive even without jace.  In this case the lands are super powerful just by themselves but on top of that opponents have to deal with practically every spell played.

Wizards has been going down this road a lot lately.  Either they don't notice, in which case I highly question their intelligence, or they don't care, in which case I highly question their intelligence.

And to preempt those who bash me by pointing out that the deck is beatable, I say this.  The spike in me is drawn to a deck that pretty much says "I got to turn three so now you had better not let me resolve anything for the remainder of the game because you will probably not be able to recover and if you ever manage to get me into topdecking mode better hope I don't get lucky even once because my threats will probably end the game on the spot."  I remember playing against valkut and being so frustrated when they topdeck a primeval titan with an empty grip and win because the card will probably put two huge threats into play that both have to be dealt with.  Oh, and they still have a 6/6 trampler that does the same thing next turn...
bantman543 makes a valid point.  Wizards has been in the habit lately of printing strong threats without a good answer for them.  The most obvious one recently was JtMS.  Printing lands that are this good is problematic as there is no good answer in the format.  To beat 12 post, you basically have play red for bloodmoons, dedicated land destruction (which loses to anything else) or counter/disrupt everything that they try to do.  It's the same thing as caw blade before the bannings.  JtMS  was good enough alone that opponents had to respect just him but in addition the deck had a completely separate strategy which is still very competetive even without jace.  In this case the lands are super powerful just by themselves but on top of that opponents have to deal with practically every spell played.

Wizards has been going down this road a lot lately.  Either they don't notice, in which case I highly question their intelligence, or they don't care, in which case I highly question their intelligence.


It's not that they don't notice, nor that they don't care. It's that they don't have a choice. They've painted themselves into a corner, and are left with nothing but bad options.

Ever since they decreased set size and instated the Mythic Rare, they've had to sell the same amount of product with just the fifteen Mythics per set, rather than the 100+ rares from before. This means they have to make the Mythics appeal to enough people, which they chose to do by making them almost entirely above the power curve (there really isn't any other way to do it). This leads to higher prices on the secondary market (where their profit before could come from dozens of cards, now it comes from just one dozen, but they have to make the same amount of money, which they do by the increased power level/value and the decreased rarity of the cards). It also leads to cards like Jace (and there will be more like him to come; they walk a fine line with the power level of Mythic Rares).

Where before they could print many rares that filled the same role and let the players decide on a deck-by-deck basis which to play, now they have to cram all that utility into one card in order to profit (since regular rares are now more common and thus will make less money for them). In addition to the problem of power level mentioned above, this also restricts viable deck lists, because options are more limited. There's a clearly best finisher in each color now (the Titans for now... Baneslayer had its day in White...) and to play anything else is going to be the wrong call in most cases.

All of this combines with the increasing focus on Limited, which leads to weakening the lower rarities (an example would be how often they obsolete one card with another in the same set). The rarer cards have more weight to pull for Constructed, which means they have to be more powerful in order to fill more roles, which leads to the power creep we've been seeing lately.

But my point isn't to say how bad this is... it was to say that it's inevitable. The only other choice they have is to go back to larger set sizes and get rid of the Mythic Rare again, and they clearly don't want to do that (it'd cost more money again to design/develop more cards... people were complaining about the number of cards in Standard at a time...). So it's not a question of them being unintelligent, it's a question of them having no choice. I'm sure they know exactly what they're doing; they just can't escape it, because it's inevitable.
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Ever since they decreased set size and instated the Mythic Rare, they've had to sell the same amount of product with just the fifteen Mythics per set, rather than the 100+ rares from before.

Well, before Mythics there usually were only one or two valuable cards in a set, and that stayed the same after Mythics.

So this can only be true if the people at Wizards had no idea which cards are going to be the most popular in a set before they deliberately made the Mythics more powerful, and the ordinary rares less powerful, to make sure the Mythics would be the ones that were the most appealing.

I have some strong doubts about that.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

bantman543 makes a valid point.  Wizards has been in the habit lately of printing strong threats without a good answer for them.  The most obvious one recently was JtMS.  Printing lands that are this good is problematic as there is no good answer in the format.  To beat 12 post, you basically have play red for bloodmoons, dedicated land destruction (which loses to anything else) or counter/disrupt everything that they try to do.  It's the same thing as caw blade before the bannings.  JtMS  was good enough alone that opponents had to respect just him but in addition the deck had a completely separate strategy which is still very competetive even without jace.  In this case the lands are super powerful just by themselves but on top of that opponents have to deal with practically every spell played.


im not entirely disagreeing but counter/disrupt is relatively easy for any deck...you don't have to fully dedicate 100% of disruption to beat it
you just need to slow him a turn or two...and overwhelm him with whatever...

common disruption that can easily fit into various decks:
spreading seas
tectonic edge
molten rain / boom//bust
blood moon
thoughtseize/ any discard

also if you see the 4-0 decklists...you realize that the non-12post decks are decks that are just as fast...and/or have versatile disruption
notice that there are many turn 4 kill combos...most of them are slightly faster and completely ignore 12post
these decks include:
elves combo
splinter twin combo
dragonstorm
hive mind
living end
pyromancer grapshot

shaman aggro
mono-red aggro
affinity
birthing pod
discard
reflecting pool control
zoo
deathcloud



ex.s.killing, the thing about the other decks you listed is that if you beat their primary game plan, they are probably going to lose.  The problem I have with 12 post is the primary game plan is to hit land drops...something that is suprisingly difficult to stop.  As I said before, the deck is certainly not unbeatable.  The problem with the disruption you have listed is that half of them are red, one of them doesnt stop them from doing things turn 3, spreading seas only makes them be honest again but doesn't actually slow them down in terms of "fair" land drops, and thoughtseize doesn't isn't as useful when the deck can topdeck any threat and practically win.  I just feel that wizards printed a threat that doesn't have a good answer to it and once again I compare it to JtMS.  It was such a massive threat by itself that opponents had to choose to either deal with it or deal with the other 56 cards and one of those threats would likely win.