Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium not available on Amazon.com?

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Since Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium has be readded to the release schedule I have been looking for it on Amazon.com for pre-order, but it is not avaialble.  Any idea why?  Will this be corrected before release?

Kalex the Omen 
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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Since Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium has be readded to the release schedule I have been looking for it on Amazon.com for pre-order, but it is not avaialble.  Any idea why?  Will this be corrected before release?


Answered back in July 18th's Rule of Three. The book will only be available through bricks-and-mortar gaming stores, not online retailers like Amazon.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
That sucks!  Luckily I have a FLGS I can go to and get a 20% discount.  I feel sorry for those that will have to pay full retail for the books.  That is for the birds!  Not to mention that having to drive to the store is an inconvenience.  WotC should get their heads out of their rectums and move forward into the 21st Century already.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Actually, the idea was to support the FLGS retailers.  They do this sort of thing because small stores are worth it – they're a lot more locally valuable than the immoral and distant giant corporations like Amazon or Barnes & Nobles. 

So here's a case where we can't go the easy route: it has to be the friendly local gaming store.  But for my case, that store isn't all that local.  That's my main beef:  there aren't enough of these FLGSs.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

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My point is that their support of local small retailers is archaic and a disservice to the vast majority of their customers.  Thus the getting their heads out of their rectums comment.  I am a fan of supporting local business when it makes sense.  In a down economy making your customers pay more for your product than they normally would have to is asinine.  Now if they had released it to only FLGSs and it had a price point around $20, then I would totally support the move even for the inconvenience of the time it takes to go to the store as opposed to having it show up in my mailbox.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.


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My point is that their support of local small retailers is archaic and a disservice to the vast majority of their customers.  Thus the getting their heads out of their rectums comment.  I am a fan of supporting local business when it makes sense.  In a down economy making your customers pay more for your product than they normally would have to is asinine.  Now if they had released it to only FLGSs and it had a price point around $20, then I would totally support the move even for the inconvenience of the time it takes to go to the store as opposed to having it show up in my mailbox.




No, I disagree, and find that somewhat of an offensive comment towards WotC, their customers, and their retailers.  The local business needs more support, not less, in this down economy.  This sort of economy is what could kill the local businesses and favour Amazon, if they don't recieve support from publishers like WotC.  This is a great idea, and I only lament that I'll have to go out of my way to work harder to get this book – but if you really want it delivered, I'm sure you could find a way (there are several retailers that sell products you're only supposed to find in FLGSs, such as Game Day books and such).

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe


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My point is that their support of local small retailers is archaic and a disservice to the vast majority of their customers.  Thus the getting their heads out of their rectums comment.  I am a fan of supporting local business when it makes sense.  In a down economy making your customers pay more for your product than they normally would have to is asinine.  Now if they had released it to only FLGSs and it had a price point around $20, then I would totally support the move even for the inconvenience of the time it takes to go to the store as opposed to having it show up in my mailbox.


+1 to all of this.

On the other hand, bricks-and-mortar gaming stores that also have an online store exist, so it ought to be possible to get the book "in your mailbox", just not via Amazon.

Actually, it occurs to me now that my first post might have given the wrong impression. It's not that all retailers are being barred from selling this product online, it's just that the big online-only retailers such as Amazon won't be selling it. Also, big bookstore chains (if there are any still left in the US?) won't be selling it, even in their bricks-and-mortar stores. But FLGSs that have an online store won't be prevented from selling the product online, AFAIK.
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
No, I disagree, and find that somewhat of an offensive comment towards WotC, their customers, and their retailers.  The local business needs more support, not less, in this down economy.  This sort of economy is what could kill the local businesses and favour Amazon, if they don't recieve support from publishers like WotC.  This is a great idea, and I only lament that I'll have to go out of my way to work harder to get this book – but if you really want it delivered, I'm sure you could find a way (there are several retailers that sell products you're only supposed to find in FLGSs, such as Game Day books and such).



It is meant to be somewhat offensive to WotC.  What is offensive to their customers and retailers is what they have done here.  They have taken a book that I could have bought for $19.70, and made me pay $26.95 for it.  Even the 20% off I can get at my FLGS is still $21.56 pre-tax.  Whatever their intent, the end result is the consumer is screwed.

Now, like I said above if they offered it to FLGSs for the same wholesale price as they give it to Amazon for and told them they had to sell it for $19.70 then I would be all for this, but WotC wants to have it's cake and eat it too with total disregard for the consumer.  In case you forgot, the consumer is those of us who keep both them and the FLGSs in business.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

WotC is also playing the long game here. With releases like Mordenkainen's Magical Emporium, and the "gaming stores only" Encounters and Lair Assaults, they're trying to support local gaming stores because they see them as a major source of new players - which, in the long run, translates into a continued customer base.

I say, more power to them. I'd love to be able to get my hands on the Encounters adventures, but I understand that if the supply of new players dries up, then eventually ongoing support for the game I love will as well.

I'm happy to pay a bit extra to support local people and businesses.

Only problem is that we don't have very many hobby stores in the UK. They only really exist in cities which means a long drive for some people. 
No, I disagree, and find that somewhat of an offensive comment towards WotC, their customers, and their retailers.  The local business needs more support, not less, in this down economy.  This sort of economy is what could kill the local businesses and favour Amazon, if they don't recieve support from publishers like WotC.  This is a great idea, and I only lament that I'll have to go out of my way to work harder to get this book – but if you really want it delivered, I'm sure you could find a way (there are several retailers that sell products you're only supposed to find in FLGSs, such as Game Day books and such).



It is meant to be somewhat offensive to WotC.  What is offensive to their customers and retailers is what they have done here.  They have taken a book that I could have bought for $19.70, and made me pay $26.95 for it.  Even the 20% off I can get at my FLGS is still $21.56 pre-tax.  Whatever their intent, the end result is the consumer is screwed.

Now, like I said above if they offered it to FLGSs for the same wholesale price as they give it to Amazon for and told them they had to sell it for $19.70 then I would be all for this, but WotC wants to have it's cake and eat it too with total disregard for the consumer.  In case you forgot, the consumer is those of us who keep both them and the FLGSs in business.



bookstores already get it at a wholesale price, but they have more overhead then Amazon does and thus can't mark the prices down. (That 19.70 is not the price of the book. That number slashed out on Amazon's web page is the price. Amazon is under-cutting the actual book price.) Frankily I'm glad they are supporting Local stores, as many have said they tend to close in bad economies and local game stores are a vital and quite important part of the hobby. (Especially if you aren't just into D&D but other rpgs/tactical mini games.) Do you know what a pain it is to find Battletech minis w/o my game store? I can do it online but it's a nuiscane. Or finding awesome indy games I'd never have looked at that turn out to be really fun. (Go look at the non-D&D/White Wolf section sometime there are some gems out there.)

Characters currently: Abscense makes the heart grow fonder but the characters disappear.
Well, the nearest FLGS to me is an hour away.  But hey, that's fine, I'll be getting this book the same place I've been getting all the others since about this time last year.

...they're a lot more locally valuable than the immoral and distant giant corporations like Amazon or Barnes & Nobles.



I think you mean "amoral".

It is meant to be somewhat offensive to WotC.  What is offensive to their customers and retailers is what they have done here.  They have taken a book that I could have bought for $19.70, and made me pay $26.95 for it.  Even the 20% off I can get at my FLGS is still $21.56 pre-tax.  Whatever their intent, the end result is the consumer is screwed.



$21.65 - $19.70 = $1.95.  

Now, like I said above if they offered it to FLGSs for the same wholesale price as they give it to Amazon for and told them they had to sell it for $19.70 then I would be all for this

 

I could critique you and tell you things about "bulk purchases", but that would just be negative. For my amusement and everyone else's, tell me how you think Amazon convinced WotC to let them sell books at a cheaper rate than gaming store.  Does involved a slick salesman?

but WotC wants to have it's cake and eat it too with total disregard for the consumer.  In case you forgot, the consumer is those of us who keep both them and the FLGSs in business.



Again, for the sake of amusement, tell me how your shopping on Amazon helps either WotC or the FLGS.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I think it's important to support FLGS.

I also think it's important that customers are left without a bad feeling if they believe they're paying more than they need to.

I also believe it's important I get this book   But, as has already been noted, FLGS in the UK are a rare-breed.  The only place where I could drive to and be reasnobly sure that they'd probably have a copy is a good few hours away.  Say three hours drive there, three back - costing a small fortune in petrol and a whole day of time which I don't have.  I really hope I can get it online, even second-hand (can people sell it second hand on Amazon, I wonder?).

How can WotC make everyone happy?  Perhaps their own mail-order/online store selling their own products with UK friendly delivery costs?  Perhaps selling their pwn pdfs?  Maybe giving FLGS a 6-month window before Amazon's allowed to sell it ...
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I think it's important to support FLGS.

I also think it's important that customers are left without a bad feeling if they believe they're paying more than they need to.

I also believe it's important I get this book   But, as has already been noted, FLGS in the UK are a rare-breed.  The only place where I could drive to and be reasnobly sure that they'd probably have a copy is a good few hours away.  Say three hours drive there, three back - costing a small fortune in petrol and a whole day of time which I don't have.  I really hope I can get it online, even second-hand (can people sell it second hand on Amazon, I wonder?).

How can WotC make everyone happy?  Perhaps their own mail-order/online store selling their own products with UK friendly delivery costs?  Perhaps selling their pwn pdfs?  Maybe giving FLGS a 6-month window before Amazon's allowed to sell it ...



By actually selling the book everywhere.  Even if the book is being sold on Amazon, people are still going to go and collect the book from their local FLGS because they don't want to wait for the book to be shipped.  They could even have the FLGS sell the book at the same price as Amazon.

I am in agreement as well that we should be supporting our FLGS. If online venders were the only places you could purchase D&D materials, I'm pretty sure that the hobby would die out. The strength is that FLGSs are one of the primary ways that new players come in contact with the game. I can't be the only person who was inspired to play the game after visiting a gaming store and thumbing through the collection of books available there (Of course they said AD&D on them back then).

That being said, I'd like to clarify what it means for Amazon.com not to have this book. I buy a lot of books THROUGH amazon, including not only D&D, but I never really buy it FROM amazon. I usually buy the books from the many venders that sell through the amazon website (I think it's officially called amazon marketplace.) Typically this is where you can really find the deals. Will WotC really be blocking the sale of Mordenkainen from Amazon Marketplace as well? My guess is that Mordenkainen will be listed on Amazon marketplace inside of 2 weeks. An additional fact to consider is that SOME of the venders that sell on Amazon also have a brick and mortar store and are in fact a FLGS, although not exactly "local" to you - but "local" to somebody.
By actually selling the book everywhere.  Even if the book is being sold on Amazon, people are still going to go and collect the book from their local FLGS because they don't want to wait for the book to be shipped.  They could even have the FLGS sell the book at the same price as Amazon.



This +1!  WotC is trying to be an engine of social change here.  It's more pathetic than a drop of water in the ocean.  Not even all of WotC is making this kind of change, and certainly not all of Hasbro.  The world is changing (maybe not for the better), but disallowing online purchases is backward thinking.

I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book!  Shameful if you ask me.  This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

I am in agreement as well that we should be supporting our FLGS. If online venders were the only places you could purchase D&D materials, I'm pretty sure that the hobby would die out. The strength is that FLGSs are one of the primary ways that new players come in contact with the game. I can't be the only person who was inspired to play the game after visiting a gaming store and thumbing through the collection of books available there (Of course they said AD&D on them back then).

That being said, I'd like to clarify what it means for Amazon.com not to have this book. I buy a lot of books THROUGH amazon, including not only D&D, but I never really buy it FROM amazon. I usually buy the books from the many venders that sell through the amazon website (I think it's officially called amazon marketplace.) Typically this is where you can really find the deals. Will WotC really be blocking the sale of Mordenkainen from Amazon Marketplace as well? My guess is that Mordenkainen will be listed on Amazon marketplace inside of 2 weeks. An additional fact to consider is that SOME of the venders that sell on Amazon also have a brick and mortar store and are in fact a FLGS, although not exactly "local" to you - but "local" to somebody.



I'm not actually opposed to FLGSs.  What I am opposed to is lack of choice.  Luckily I have full confidence that this is going to backfire on WotC and MME will be the worst selling D&D book of all time.  Once the experiment fails, hopefully Hasbro will reign them in and we'll be able to get everything else where we want to in the future. 

Kalex the Omen 
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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.


I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book!  Shameful if you ask me.  This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.



Wrong.

Many FLGS also have an online presence, including many in the UK and europe. You can order this book online via one of those stores. If you want, the only movement you'll make will be from the couch to the door when it's delivered.

I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book!  Shameful if you ask me.  This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.



Wrong.

Many FLGS also have an online presence, including many in the UK and europe. You can order this book online via one of those stores. If you want, the only movement you'll make will be from the couch to the door when it's delivered.



Depends on where in Europe you are talking about.  I'm in Ireland and the only FLGS that's close to is in Dublin (Hour away) and it doesn't even carry Essentials books.  It's more of a Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering Store and they don't have an online presence.


I do feel bad for our UK brothers (and any others in the US or around the world) who will have to drive a whopping 6 hours round trip to get this book!  Shameful if you ask me.  This is quite simply bone-headed on WotCs part.



Wrong.

Many FLGS also have an online presence, including many in the UK and europe. You can order this book online via one of those stores. If you want, the only movement you'll make will be from the couch to the door when it's delivered.



And many don't.  I was simply responding to pogminky who made the claim that he has to drive 6 hours round trip.  Take it up with him if you have a problem with that.  I won't be buying online (and paying full price) from some non-local gaming store.  Kind of defeats the "supposed" purpose of supporting your FLGS, doesn't it??  I love it when people torpedo their own argument.


Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.



I'm not actually opposed to FLGSs.  What I am opposed to is lack of choice.



Trust me Kalex, within two weeks of release the book will be on Amazon but sold by independent book stores. Probably FLGSs from other locales.

This is an attempt to get people in the store - and I hope it works. But I don't think WotC has the ability to stop Amazon from listing the book - they just won't sell any directly to Amazon.


I'm not actually opposed to FLGSs.  What I am opposed to is lack of choice.



Trust me Kalex, within two weeks of release the book will be on Amazon but sold by independent book stores. Probably FLGSs from other locales.

This is an attempt to get people in the store - and I hope it works. But I don't think WotC has the ability to stop Amazon from listing the book - they just won't sell any directly to Amazon.



This.

Also E-bay will be crawling w/the things before long.

I am curious Kalex, since Wizards often tracks books through FLGS, how/why do you think they didn't do enough research to know that the sales from those places will support the printing of the book? Frankly the idea that they aren't keenly aware of the best ways to sell their product seems quite strange to me.

Frankly, I wonder how all you folks who think Local game stores can afford to sell things at Amazon's price-cuts think that would work.

(Also you folks w/o a game shop locally have you checked comic shops? They tend to carry rpgs and accessories as well. I'm sure folks have but, well if you don't do the comics thing you might not realize.)
Characters currently: Abscense makes the heart grow fonder but the characters disappear.
BaronFel,

You should really read my posts more closely.  I didn't say that I think LGSs could simply afford to make those deep cuts to their pricing.  WotC would have to help out.  Someone back a ways said FLGSs do get wholesale pricing, but this shows how uninformed they really are.  There isn't just one wholesale price.  Volume retailers often get better wholesale pricing, precisely because they can move a lot of product.  Amazon works this way (and is a little bit of a bully about it from what I have heard).  If WotC doesn't like Amazon, and wants to shut them out, sell the books to the LGSs for the same price they sell them to Amazon.  Then the LGSs can offer them for the same price as Amazon, and it levels the playing field without screwing the consumer.

As to your research question, I obviously can't answer this for sure, but it is fair to assume that Amazon accounts for a large portion of D&D book sales.  Their position as the largest online retailer in the world assures that is true.  What WotC seems to be gambling on this that most people will simply go to their FLGS to get the book.  They can't know for sure that it will happen.  I hope it does not.  I am myself considering not buying the book at this point in the hopes that enough people will also do so to make this little experiment a failure.  The way WotC is going about this is just wrong.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

BaronFel,
  If WotC doesn't like Amazon, and wants to shut them out, sell the books to the LGSs for the same price they sell them to Amazon. 



I highly doubt that WotC "doesn't like" Amazon. There is a balancing act here to be sure. Amazon provides an extremely accessible outlet but doesn't provide the exposure that comes from knowledgeable sales associates that you would find in a FLGS (as well as physical displays and such). 

To keep both channels (major distributors and FLGS) in business, WotC could either sell product to FLGS at a discount, allowing them to set the pricepoint in-store at levels competitive to Amazon (I think this was your idea). The alternative is to release a book once in a while that is exclusive to the FLGS in order to bring in more customers allowing for the opportunity of repeat future business. This seems to be what WotC is doing. One strategy is a shorter term cut in revenue with long term benefits. The other is a longer-term (and probably deeper) cut in revenue and does longer-term damage to the major distributor channel as well - that is Amazon will continue to lose business to FLGS over a longer timespan.

I'm going to joyfully pay an extra 2 dollars and purchase the book at my FLGS.
To keep both channels (major distributors and FLGS) in business, WotC could either sell product to FLGS at a discount, allowing them to set the pricepoint in-store at levels competitive to Amazon (I think this was your idea).



You are correct, sir!

I really amazes me that WotC thinks that they need to do this at all.  Books sales are traditionally driven by word of mouth.  I've started seeing some books advertised in magazines and on TV lately, but seeing the author on TV and hearing them talk is actually a turn off to me, and it is still very rare.  I don't see paperback book publishers avoiding Amazon in this way to get more people into brick and mortar book stores.  Gaming stores and for that matter comic stores have always been a risky business to get into.  Most store owners I know, or have known, barely get by.  This isn't anything new, and WotC can't change that fact.

I just think WotCs whole premise is wrong.  People walking into brick and mortar stores isn't going to do a lot to expand the hobby.  That is still done by word of mouth outside of stores.  Furthermore, doing this doesn't do anything to endear WotC to its consumers who rely on Amazon to be able to afford their hobby, or as the only practical outlet to purchase the books.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Depends on where in Europe you are talking about.  I'm in Ireland and the only FLGS that's close to is in Dublin (Hour away) and it doesn't even carry Essentials books.  It's more of a Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering Store and they don't have an online presence.


I have just had confirmation from both IGUK and Orc's Nest that they will be selling MME through their online stores. Both will ship to Ireland by Royal Mail Airmail (which should be no more than an extra 4-5£ on top of the book's price).
"There's an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing. I've always had a problem with that. If you do nothing to oppose evil, then how are you 'good'? To turn aside and allow evil to flourish is to collaborate with it. You ask for mercy. You claim you have done nothing. That 'nothing' is why you deserve no mercy." - Lorian Karthfaerr, drow paladin of Avandra Robin Laws says I'm a Storyteller:
Show
You're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director. Storyteller 92% Tactician 83% Method Actor 75% Butt-Kicker 67% Power Gamer 67% Specialist 58% Casual Gamer 8%
Depends on where in Europe you are talking about.  I'm in Ireland and the only FLGS that's close to is in Dublin (Hour away) and it doesn't even carry Essentials books.  It's more of a Warhammer and Magic: The Gathering Store and they don't have an online presence.


I have just had confirmation from both IGUK and Orc's Nest that they will be selling MME through their online stores. Both will ship to Ireland by Royal Mail Airmail (which should be no more than an extra 4-5£ on top of the book's price).



That would cost me just a little more since sterling is worth more than the euro.  But at least they will ship it.  I wouldn't mind having that new Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms book.
I'm glad it'll be available online - frankly, I ain't driving to get it.  I'll wait until it pops up online - and probably second hand since I find new books pretty pricey.
Playing Scales of War

Rogue.jpg

I don't see paperback book publishers avoiding Amazon in this way to get more people into brick and mortar book stores.  Gaming stores and for that matter comic stores have always been a risky business to get into.  Most store owners I know, or have known, barely get by.  This isn't anything new, and WotC can't change that fact.

I just think WotCs whole premise is wrong.  People walking into brick and mortar stores isn't going to do a lot to expand the hobby.  That is still done by word of mouth outside of stores.  Furthermore, doing this doesn't do anything to endear WotC to its consumers who rely on Amazon to be able to afford their hobby, or as the only practical outlet to purchase the books.



Your problem is that you see the FLGS only as a place to go and by stuff. They are that, but they are also a place where gamers gather and play. Making MME exclusive to them brings gamer focus to them in a way that simply attaining price parity with Amazon would not. Anyway, trying to attain price parity with Amazon in the FLGS is a losing battle, since their overhead is always lower and they never charge sales tax.
I killed Aleena.
Your problem is that you see the FLGS only as a place to go and by stuff. They are that, but they are also a place where gamers gather and play. Making MME exclusive to them brings gamer focus to them in a way that simply attaining price parity with Amazon would not. Anyway, trying to attain price parity with Amazon in the FLGS is a losing battle, since their overhead is always lower and they never charge sales tax.



Actually I don't see FLGSs only as a place to go buy stuff, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the argument at hand.  For as much as I like the owner of my FLGS (we used to work there together before he became the owner), simple economics trump our friendship and he understands that.  He cannot beat the price Amazon has because WotC won't sell him the books for the same price.  Pure and simple.  They often don't charge shipping fees on purchases over a certain dollar amount (and most D&D products meet this criteria) which is what makes them more convenient than a FLGS most of the time, if you can wait to get your product.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

He cannot beat the price Amazon has because WotC won't sell him the books for the same price.



Even if stores could get them at the same price as Amazon, Amazon would always be able to sell them cheaper: Amazon doesn't have to pay expensive rent on a store front, and they don't have to charge their customers sales tax. The FLGS simply cannot get in to a price war with Amazon. Amazon can always make their prices lower than the FLGS, or simply stop selling game books. The very idea of trying to compete with Amazon on price is laughable.

The alternative is to find ways to get people in to gaming stores by adding value. This makes sense for WotC, since gaming stores help expand the hobby while Amazon does not. From the WotC end, these efforts include:


  • World Wide Game Days

  • Encounters

  • Fortune Cards

  • ... and now this somewhat artificial value add, by limiting distribution to the FLGS

I killed Aleena.
The very idea of trying to compete with Amazon on price is laughable.



I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that they can, or even should.  My argument is that limiting the sale of this book to FLGSs is asinine, and that WotCs reasons for doing so (from what I have heard) are misguided, and/or misinformed.

Now, if WotC did let Ron sell the book for the same price as Amazon, by giving him the same wholesale price, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because in that case I would pay the extra 7% and get it from Ron instead of some big nameless corportation.  The fact that WotC wants to force me to pay more than I can get it for from Amazon, and pay tax all in the name of some false benefit to FLGSs is what makes me mad because it is pure falsehood.  I would even applaud WotC if they gave FLGSs the same deal as Amazon, and allowed them to sell it for $26.95 (though I'd buy from Amazon in that case).  That would be some real profit for the poor cash strapped store owners, but don't try to feed me some BS line about WotC caring about FLGSs cause it just ain't true.  Ron still gets to just make a measly few cents off each book, and I guarantee you it isn't providing any extra revenue that he can't drum up on his own without big benevolent WotC.

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Here is one issue.  D&D doesn't sell enough to make or break a FLGS.  When it is all said and done, a gaming store owner isn't ready to plan a holiday to Hawaii.  It's all a marketing ploy by Wizards of the Coast that is hidden by the illusion of helping out the FLGS.  I could actually see people buying multiple copies of the book and then selling them on Amazon at a higher cost in order to exploit those who don't live near a FLGS.
The very idea of trying to compete with Amazon on price is laughable.



I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that they can, or even should.  My argument is that limiting the sale of this book to FLGSs is asinine, and that WotCs reasons for doing so (from what I have heard) are misguided, and/or misinformed.

Now, if WotC did let Ron sell the book for the same price as Amazon, by giving him the same wholesale price, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because in that case I would pay the extra 7% and get it from Ron instead of some big nameless corportation.  The fact that WotC wants to force me to pay more than I can get it for from Amazon, and pay tax all in the name of some false benefit to FLGSs is what makes me mad because it is pure falsehood.  I would even applaud WotC if they gave FLGSs the same deal as Amazon, and allowed them to sell it for $26.95 (though I'd buy from Amazon in that case).  That would be some real profit for the poor cash strapped store owners, but don't try to feed me some BS line about WotC caring about FLGSs cause it just ain't true.  Ron still gets to just make a measly few cents off each book, and I guarantee you it isn't providing any extra revenue that he can't drum up on his own without big benevolent WotC.



WotC does care about the FLGS. Not for the sake of the FLGS, obviously, but in how the FLGS can make mutual customers for them. That's the whole purpose behind the store programs that I listed in my last message, and that's just for D&D. There are plenty of other store-exclusive programs for M:tG that further prove my point. WotC doesn't want to sell to Amazon at cut rate, but they have no choice. WotC is not a charity, and can't afford to give every retailer the same benefit that Amazon gets.

If you were so concerned about "Ron", you'd quit being such a cheapskate and buy books at his store. Let's stop pretending this is some advocacy for the FLGS: I buy at mine. You don't, by your own admission. This is about you whining that you can't undercut "Ron" by buying every single book cut-rate from Amazon. What you don't seem to get is that if WotC gave the same deal to retailers, then Amazon would still make their price lower than the retailers. People like you would be right back at the web browser ordering from Amazon and bitching about how you would buy from the FLGS if only you could get the book as cheap there. Or maybe you do get it, but you won't admit it.

Personally, I'm happy that WotC is distributing the book this way. Maybe it will encourage some of those freeloaders I see who come through the FLGS every single week for Encounters, LFR, and game days, and never buy things there.

In conclusion, let's examine a quote from your own signature:


WotC needs to realize that continuous negative posting is a form of trolling and shouldn't be allowed.



What are you doing right now by continuously slamming WotC in this thread?
I killed Aleena.
It's all a marketing ploy by Wizards of the Coast that is hidden by the illusion of helping out the FLGS.



Then what, exactly, is to be gained by intentionally limiting the distribution to the FLGS? Somehow fool customers that WotC cares? Or could it be the more simple and direct explanation: WotC wants to encourage people to go to the FLGS.

The grapes in this thread are sour.
I killed Aleena.
It's all a marketing ploy by Wizards of the Coast that is hidden by the illusion of helping out the FLGS.



Then what, exactly, is to be gained by intentionally limiting the distribution to the FLGS? Somehow fool customers that WotC cares? Or could it be the more simple and direct explanation: WotC wants to encourage people to go to the FLGS.

The grapes in this thread are sour.



Here is the problem.  If Wizards of the Coast really wants to help the FLGS then they need to sell the books to these shops at the same price they sell them to Amazon because that would be more money in the owner's pockets. 

I can almost promise you there will not be a mad rush by the populace to buy this book.  Some people will actually wait to get the book when it's cheaper and yu will have some people who will have gone to their FLGS regardless if Amazon has the book or not.
Bargle0,

You are obviously not reading my posts, and are only here as a pro-WotC troll, so this will me my last response to you.

Amazon can't undercut anything if WotC gives preferred wholesale pricing to FLGSs and doesn't sell any to Amazon.  But you don't see WotC doing that and saying to the FLGS owner, "Go ahead and pocket the increased revenue from these products, we really care about you and this is our way of showing it to you."

So you are admitting that the in store programs do nothing for the LGSs themselves because only freeloaders participate.  Nice.  Proves my point further, and is good ammo for another thread I am posting in.  Thanks.

My sig referrs to people who open new threads on a daily basis on the same topic, over and over again.  Either to antagonize fellow forum members or in a childish attempt to "force" some kind of official response from WotC against normal company policy.  This is one thread, and my attempts to clarify my position to people who have questioned it and truly wanted to understand it.  You apparently are not one of those, which is why I am done responding to you.

Good day troll.  

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Here is the problem.  If Wizards of the Coast really wants to help the FLGS then they need to sell the books to these shops at the same price they sell them to Amazon because that would be more money in the owner's pockets. 

I can almost promise you there will not be a mad rush by the populace to buy this book.  Some people will actually wait to get the book when it's cheaper and yu will have some people who will have gone to their FLGS regardless if Amazon has the book or not.



QFT 

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

OSR Fan? Our Big Announcement™ is here!

Please join our forums!

Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.


You are obviously not reading my posts



I've read your posts. I just don't think you've successfully defended your position.


Amazon can't undercut anything if WotC gives preferred wholesale pricing to FLGSs and doesn't sell any to Amazon.  But you don't see WotC doing that and saying to the FLGS owner, "Go ahead and pocket the increased revenue from these products, we really care about you and this is our way of showing it to you."



Oh, now you want WotC to sell to the FLGS and not Amazon? I don't think anything more needs to be said in this thread.


So you are admitting that the in store programs do nothing for the LGSs themselves because only freeloaders participate.  Nice.  Proves my point further, and is good ammo for another thread I am posting in.  Thanks.



Uh, no. I never said that. Many of the people who come to the store for these programs buy plenty of stuff. There are others who do not, and they are the freeloaders. Go ahead and read things that aren't there, though. The only credibility you're hurting is yours.


Good day troll.  



Same to you, buddy.
I killed Aleena.
Figured I'd add, since I just found out about this...annoying fact that Barnes&Noble.com doesn't have it either.  Unless it's under a different, or odd name I couldn't find it in a search.  And to be honest this bothers me because if it's not online then that makes me think they wont have it in stores.  Though considering they haven't had much of the latest books past the first essential books in the stores...probably shouldn't be surprised.

But what the hell, my 2 cents.  Honestly I'm not a fan of this turn of events.  Sorry, I get the drive to support the mom & pop stores and I don't have issue with those stores, and get that yeah the big companys tend to squash them. Shame.  But I also don't think it's fair to some people to refuse to sell them online or at the big stores and only at those mom & pop stores.

Personally yeah, I bought most of my D&D books(when I was buying them) on Amazon because they're quite a bit cheaper and money was an issue.  Would've love to buy them at B&N, but just couldn't do it.  And with this turn of events the only place that'll probably get this book is one store and while not far or anything...one store to have access to getting the book for the entire town and surrounding area to me is a joke.  Mind you I don't have the money for the book but I was going to get it eventually when I had money and yet it seems like if I can only get it from that one store and they either decide not to carry it, I'm screwed.  Or it'll take awhile to get in especially if people keep buying it.

Honestly I hope Wizards doesn't continue doing this with all their future book releases because for a lot of people it'll make the books nearly impossible or definitely impossible to get which is counter to their goals of getting sales and money.  But whatever, they keep doing crap I don't like so I'm not surprised by this at all.