08/23/2011 SF: "The Great Eight"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
2. 1,452 tokens. The original spell puts 4 1/1 tokens onto the battlefield, then Rhys "doubles" that to 8 more for 12 total. Next turn, you put another 4 by Retraceing, for 16 total then "double" it for 32 more, 48 total. Third turn, you put another 4 by Retraceing, for 52 total, then "double" it for 104 more, for 156 total. Fourth turn, you put 4 more, for 160 total, then "double" that for 320 more, 480 total. Fifth turn, you get 4 more for 484 total, "double" it for 968 more. You end up with 1,452 total 1/1 kithkin soldier tokens.
3. Two mana. Primordial Hydra enters the battlefield with 4 +1/+1 counters on it, and then gets another 8 +1/+1 counters at next upkeep, becoming a 12/12.
4. 52 tokens. First upkeep, he himself puts 2 copies of himself out there, and Followed Footsteps puts another 2, for 5 total. Second upkeep, each of the 5 put 2 copies, and Followed Footsteps puts another 2, for 12 new tokens and 17 copies total. Third upkeep, each of the 17 put 2 copies, plus another 2 from the Followed Footsteps, for 36 new tokens and 53 total: 52 tokens plus the original.

I'm going to need to dive into Gatherer for question 1.
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I'm way excited to see some werewolves... There have only been a few throughout Magic's history but they seem like they could have some really interesting mechanics.  Some trigger that turns them into the wolf or something like that. 

I wonder if we'll see and Kamigawa style flip cards for the werewolves... I think it would make sense.
I won't be suprised at all if Werewolves end up winning the "Which horror trope creature type are you looking forward to in Innistrad most?" poll.  I most certainetly voted for them.

There's been quite a few Ghosts, Zombies, Vampires, and Victims (lol) over the years, but Lycanthropes seem to be relatively under represented in Magic.  From what I can find from the Gatherer, we've got only three Werewolves: Greater Werewolf, Lesser Werewolf (which both have rather odd abillities in my opinion), and Treacherous Werewolf.

I'd really like to see how Werewolves as a tribe get handled in Innistrad.
I wonder if we'll see and Kamigawa style flip cards for the werewolves... I think it would make sense.

If memory serves the entire flip card mechanic originally started out as a day / night mechanic, so that would make quite a bit of sense.
My nominee for "funnest" card is Wild Ricochet.  Every time I draw it I feel like there's the potential for something truly ridiculous  to happen.
For question 1:

Vigean Hydropon? He costs 3 mana and would enter the battlefield as a 10/10, and he'd eventually lead to ten "more" power and toughness from grafting onto ten creatures. The problem is, it wouldn't be ten more total power and toughness, since as they gain, he loses, and Grafting doesn't get doubled as the counters are moved, not removed and placed anew.

Still, it's my best guess right now. I'll search more tomorrow, and maybe come up with a better answer.

Thanks for the fun questions! Math can indeed be fun! (I, too, have a degree in Mathematics.)
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Only Gate to the Æther provides that random, off-the-top-of-the-deck, hearing-your-heartbeat moment every upkeep. Is it a land? Is it Primeval Titan? It is another Gate to the Æther? Is it just a Rampant Growth? Kicking every deck up a random notch is one way to ensure games are both faster and more fun.



Did you forget Omen Machine?
I wonder if the poll is a sneaky preview of color-specific tribes from Innistrad.  Werewolves might well be green, vampires in red aren't a huge stretch, zombies obviously remain black, and white might be full of Spirits that want to rule over their descendants with an iron fist and crush all rival clans to protect their kin and preserve order.  So perhaps humans are blue in this set, hopelessly overpowered and resorting to clever trickery in order to survive.
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As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
I wonder if the poll is a sneaky preview of color-specific tribes from Innistrad.  Werewolves might well be green, vampires in red aren't a huge stretch, zombies obviously remain black, and white might be full of Spirits that want to rule over their descendants with an iron fist and crush all rival clans to protect their kin and preserve order.  So perhaps humans are blue in this set, hopelessly overpowered and resorting to clever trickery in order to survive.


I wouldn't be so hasty as to write creature types into a single color.  I mean, we know for sure that there will be both Blue and Black Zombies from the San Diego Comic-Con Panel.
He also promised more classic monster types would be revealed as the set gets unveiled—or should that be unshrouded? Mark went on to describe the challenges of making a horror set and assigning classic horror creature types to colors other than black. Zombies and vampires have traditionally been black cards, but Rosewater explained that there would be two types of Zombies. The typical risen-from-the-grave Zombie will be black, but the dug up and reassembled kind of Zombie—think Frankenstein's monster here—will be blue.

Gate to the Aether is fun. Omen Machine is not, due to that extra line on it.

This line was in the article concerning Polymorph:
"Stick it into a random deck with blue, and you can convert a creature that's blocking (or otherwise about to die) into something new."

Polymorph is a sorcery, which means in most situations you won't be able to cast it on a blocking/dying creature (barring flashing shenanigans). 
I wonder if the poll is a sneaky preview of color-specific tribes from Innistrad.  Werewolves might well be green, vampires in red aren't a huge stretch, zombies obviously remain black, and white might be full of Spirits that want to rule over their descendants with an iron fist and crush all rival clans to protect their kin and preserve order.  So perhaps humans are blue in this set, hopelessly overpowered and resorting to clever trickery in order to survive.


Mark Rosewater on his tumblr and on twitter has told us what the five tribes' colors will be.  I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler or not, but:

Show

Humans are Green and White
Ghosts are White and Blue
Zombies are Blue and Black
Vampires are Black and Red
Werewolves are Red and Green

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It's unfortunate that duels with alternate rules like pauper and singleton seem to be so unpopular (at least among this voting audience). If applied correctly, alternate rules can mitigate a lot of the unfairness, one-upmanship, and other flaws that sometimes creep into casual duels.

No love for kicked RIte of Replication on Reaper King? 25 vindicates doesn't do it for you?

For question 1:

Vigean Hydropon? He costs 3 mana and would enter the battlefield as a 10/10, and he'd eventually lead to ten "more" power and toughness from grafting onto ten creatures. The problem is, it wouldn't be ten more total power and toughness, since as they gain, he loses, and Grafting doesn't get doubled as the counters are moved, not removed and placed anew.

Still, it's my best guess right now. I'll search more tomorrow, and maybe come up with a better answer.

Thanks for the fun questions! Math can indeed be fun! (I, too, have a degree in Mathematics.)

Doubling Season would still double the counters put on other cards with the graft mechanic. It's an affect that places a +1/+1 counter on a permanent. Even though the wording is kinda funny, it would still work.

No love for kicked RIte of Replication on Reaper King? 25 vindicates doesn't do it for you?




Isn't that kind of a bad idea? First your Reaper kings will all die thanks to the legnedary rule, followed by your opponents board wipe, but probably a nice chunk if not all of your board to. It's cool in theory but if that's what you wanted then why not just play Apocalypse and blink something nasty back onto your board? I could only really see that combo working on like at turn 12+ kinda deal where there are enough permanents out so that you don't cripple your board in the process as well. 

Isn't that kind of a bad idea? First your Reaper kings will all die thanks to the legnedary rule, followed by your opponents board wipe, but probably a nice chunk if not all of your board to. It's cool in theory but if that's what you wanted then why not just play Apocalypse and blink something nasty back onto your board? I could only really see that combo working on like at turn 12+ kinda deal where there are enough permanents out so that you don't cripple your board in the process as well.  


All of the Reaper King triggers would go onto the stack at the same time.  You can target the same permanents multiple times, and the extra triggers would just be countered for lack of a legal target.

Isn't that kind of a bad idea? First your Reaper kings will all die thanks to the legnedary rule, followed by your opponents board wipe, but probably a nice chunk if not all of your board to. It's cool in theory but if that's what you wanted then why not just play Apocalypse and blink something nasty back onto your board? I could only really see that combo working on like at turn 12+ kinda deal where there are enough permanents out so that you don't cripple your board in the process as well.  


All of the Reaper King triggers would go onto the stack at the same time.  You can target the same permanents multiple times, and the extra triggers would just be countered for lack of a legal target.



Ah yes, when I read his sentence "25 Vindicates doesn't do it for you?" I registered destroy 25 permanents at once in my head >_> Doh'.

Lol which horror creature type are you looking forward to most, Victims!? Really he should have written Hunters or just humans.
Lol which horror creature type are you looking forward to most, Victims!? Really he should have written Hunters or just humans.




LOL, that just made me imagine victim as an actual creature type in Innistrad! Would be an interesting class though.



I voted for Werewolves as the creature I am looking forward to most.  There simply aren't enough werewolves in Magic.  Interesting to see the colors identified with them.  But I guess in a world where everything (except most humans) would likely be black normally it makes sense to find another color.
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I'm pretty sure the Rite of Replication x2 - Precursor Golem is off by about 4 million. It seems like they are assuming each copy on the stack triggers the golem's copy effects but it wont because it reads 'whenever a player casts...' Unless I'm missing something their math is better than their rules knowledge. I scribbled it down and got 1198, can anyone back this up or explain how they managed to get 4 million? 
Someone smarter than me realized that Confusion in the Ranks is very good in Sedris EDH. Cool
The issue with the kicked Rite of Replication is that the copies don't get generated at once.  So in the initial state, there are 6 Precursor Golems in play and 22 Golem tokens.  You cast a kicked Rite of Replication on one of the tokens.  This triggers six instances of the Precursor Golem's "copy the spell" ability.  However, the copies don't get generated all at once, but those six abilities go on the stack.  Then, the first trigger resolves, making 27 copies of the original spell.  Then those 27 copies resolve, making a bunch of tokens.  Then the second trigger resolves, making many more than 27 copies of the original spell, because it counts the number of golems in play when the trigger resolves, not when the original spell was cast.
I have a question regarding the whole Doubling Season: What happens when you have 11 Doubling Seasons, and you make a single token that is a copy of one of those Doubling Seasons, then do that again, how many Doubling Season would you end up with?
If you are wondering how I did this, Prototype Portal+Sculpting Steel, then used Liquimetal Coating to turn my Doubling Season into an artifact... The rest is self-explanitory. 
Nice list of fun cards!


"Soul Warden, Soul's Attendant, and Essence Warden let you stock up on life as you pass around Hippo tokens (though Suture Priest does the same thing while whittling away opponent's life totals)."

Suture Priest only gains you life when a creature enters the battlefield under your control.
I have a question regarding the whole Doubling Season: What happens when you have 11 Doubling Seasons, and you make a single token that is a copy of one of those Doubling Seasons, then do that again, how many Doubling Season would you end up with?
If you are wondering how I did this, Prototype Portal+Sculpting Steel, then used Liquimetal Coating to turn my Doubling Season into an artifact... The rest is self-explanitory. 


Well let's see...

2^11 = 2048, so you'd get 2048 Doubling Season tokens from the first copy effect, making 2059 total.
The second copy effect produces 2^2059 new tokens, which is...

I think my head just exploded.

That's somewhere in the ballpark of a 600 digit number, I believe?
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Most or all of these should be printed in every Core Set.
The precurser golem copy ability isn't a triggered ability is it?

I was under the impression that is was sort of a static ability.

Also, what were to happen to a solitare game of MTGO if you were to create 4 million tokens?  Once the game crashes and you reboot how would you stop the game state?  For example, if I am playing solitare and accidentally log off I think that when I log back in I am still playing solitare against myself.  Also, I don't think you can timeout in a solitare match.  My guess is that it would be a huge headache to get out of the game without crashing mtgo.
The precurser golem copy ability isn't a triggered ability is it?

I was under the impression that is was sort of a static ability.

No, it's not static; it's a triggered ability. You can tell because it says "whenever". Triggered abilities always use either "when", "whenever", or "at".

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

The issue with the kicked Rite of Replication is that the copies don't get generated at once.  So in the initial state, there are 6 Precursor Golems in play and 22 Golem tokens.  You cast a kicked Rite of Replication on one of the tokens.  This triggers six instances of the Precursor Golem's "copy the spell" ability.  However, the copies don't get generated all at once, but those six abilities go on the stack.  Then, the first trigger resolves, making 27 copies of the original spell.  Then those 27 copies resolve, making a bunch of tokens.  Then the second trigger resolves, making many more than 27 copies of the original spell, because it counts the number of golems in play when the trigger resolves, not when the original spell was cast.

I woke up this morning and immeditaely realised the copied RoR will go on the stack above the other Precursor triggers!

Thanks for the explanation Etsap =) 
If you have one Precursor Golem and its copies (I'd call them "generic golems", or the link in the original article called them "dumb golems") out, and you cast a kicked Rite of Replication on one of them once, you get 28 golems. That part is relatively simple. (The Rite goes on the stack, then copies go on the stack for each Golem token. Each Rite gives you five of whatever it was cast on. One Rite targets each of the two generic golems, so that's 10 generic golems. One Rite cast on the Precursor Golem card, so that's five Precursor Golem tokens. When the Precursor Golem tokens enter the battlefield, they each give you two more generic golems, for a total of 10 from the precursor tokens. So 15 tokens directly from the Rites plus 10 more from the Rite-made precursors, for 25, plus the original three, for a total of 28.)

If you cast a second Rite of Replication, with a spell-copying effect or a graveyard recursion effect or simply with a second copy of the card, that's when things get complicated, because the precursor golem tokens each copy the spell an additional time. This guy did some math that looks solid. To summarize, 1042 generic golem tokens and 186 Precursor Golems, a total of 1,218. It's not literally in the millions, but it's still a pretty damn huge number of creatures from three cards (or two cards and a copying or graveyard-recursion effect). It is, however, far less than the amount from the "Cloning Golems for Fun and Profit" thing linked to in the original post. I can't figure out which one of them did something wrong, but I'm inclined to go to the lower number, just to be fair to my opponents when I spring this on them. Isn't 1,218 enough?

Now, if you cast a Precursor Golem with Doubling Season out and then cast Rite of Replication on it, lets figure that one out. It gives you four generic golems when it comes into play. Then you cast Rite of Replication on the precursor golem card. Instead of giving you five copies, each Rite gives you 10. One Rite targets each of the four generic golems, so that's 40 generic colems. One Rite cast on the Precursor Golem card, so that's 10 Precursor Golem tokens. When the Precursor Golem tokens enter the battlefield, they each give you four more generic golems, for a total of 40. So 50 tokens directly from the Rites plus 40 more from the Rite-made precursors, for 90, plus the original five, for a total of 95.

Wow. I kinda had a thought about a Phelddagrif EDH deck, and this is on-color and the hippo might give me enough favors to trade to keep some pieces of the combo in play long enough for the combo to go off, so this makes me much more interested in it. I'm going for it.
Actually the one saying golems go into millions sound about right and here and things to consider:

1)2nd Rite is coppied 6 times onto each other golem
2)Each trigger of Precursor Golem's copy ability counts the number of golems for number of spell copies on resolution, so it does count the new golems created by the rites already resolved

So before 2nd Rite you have 6 "smart" golems and 22 "dumb" golems.

1st copy or rites resolve: you get 30 "smart" golems that bring 60 "dumb" golems and 110 "dumb golems from copies for total of 36 "smart" and 170 "dumb" golems.

2nd copy resolves: 36*5 = 180 "smart" golems with 360 "dumb" golems and 170*5 = 850 "dumb" golems for total 180 + 36 = 216 "smart" golems and 850 + 170 + 360 = 1380 "dumb" golems

3rd copy resolves: 216 * 5 = 1080 "smart" golems with 2160 "dumb" golems and 1380*5 = 6900 "dumb golems for total 1080 + 216 = 1296 "smart" golems and 6900 + 2160 + 1380 = 10440 "dumb" golems

4th copy: 1296*5 = 6480 "smart" with 12960 "dumb" golems and 10440*5 = 52200 "dumb" golems for total 6480 + 1296 = 7776 "smart" and 52200 + 12960 + 10440 = 75600 "dumb" golems

5th copy: 7776*5 = 38880 "smart" with 77760 "dumb" golem and 75600*5 = 378000 "dumb" golems for total 38880 + 7776 = 46656 "smart" and 378000 + 77760 + 75600 = 531360 "dumb" golems

Final 6th copy: 46656*5 = 233280 "smart" with 466560 "dumb" golems and 531360*5 = 2656800 "dumb" for total 233280 + 46656 = 279,936 "smart" and 2656800 + 466560 + 531360 = 3,654,720 "dumb" golems and that's total 3,654,720 + 279,936 = 3,934,656 golems.
I cant cast my vote.
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I cant cast my vote.


Join the club. I haven't been able to vote on this site for months.

For the record, my vote is Vampires (because it's the new Black tribe but got shafted in Scars), with Werewolves being a close second. But that may change when we see the actual cards. It's very close.
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Confusion in the Ranks + Norin, the Wary or Saltskitter is quite troublesome.  I especially like it with genesis chamber