Modern is the Future

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Hey everybody. I wrote an article about Modern here:

birdsofparadise-mtg.blogspot.com/2011/08...

In short, I think Modern is great because it's a solid foundation on which to build an eternal format. Right now Modern seems to play like the old Extended but eventually it will replace Legacy just like Legacy replaced Vintage as the most popular eternal format.

They key, of course, is reprints. 

Check it out; let me know what you think! 
Basically, as someone who used to blog: You're pretty much stating the obvious, and the tone of the article is indistinguishable from any other blog. But most of all:

"Imagine if you wanted to play vintage and you finally saved up $2000 and bought a set of moxen (you got a really good deal). Then you find out Wizards decided to break their reprint policy and sell a special edition, from the vault, tournament legal box product with the same set for $100. What a slap in the face."

The biggest slap in the face have always been not bieng able to play with the cards you own. This is coming from someone who owns some power and several duals. I'd rather they be 1/10th of the price because of a reprint than see vintage (and to an extend legacy) be obsoleted. WotC tried to break reprint - Aaron Forsythe went as far as to publicly state his dislike of the policy and several members of RnD traveled to SCG, TnT, CFB and several other big vendors and discussed with them reprint policy. It seemed for a moment it would finally get axed, because all the parties gave the green light, but suddenly, without explanation, WotC said they wouild never change the policy, ever. Means a possible law suit threat.

The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
Yeah, I kind of like Modern too. Now I just need to replace my five circle of protections from unlimited, and one from ice age, for the ones from 8th edtion...

Anyone want cards worth $3-5 For ones worth less from 8th? XD
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Basically, as someone who used to blog: You're pretty much stating the obvious, and the tone of the article is indistinguishable from any other blog. But most of all:

"Imagine if you wanted to play vintage and you finally saved up $2000 and bought a set of moxen (you got a really good deal). Then you find out Wizards decided to break their reprint policy and sell a special edition, from the vault, tournament legal box product with the same set for $100. What a slap in the face."

The biggest slap in the face have always been not bieng able to play with the cards you own. 




Thanks for the feedback.

While I agree there is a lot of background information, I don't feel like the entire article is obvious. Predicting that Wizards will reprint cards in stand-alone products to engineer the price of Modern tournament staples downward to maximize player base and profit doesn't seem obvious to me. I mean, I could be wrong!

I hear what you're saying about the the slap in the face being you can't play with your power 9 because Vintage is obsoleted. But, hasn't that already happened? I guess Modern obsoletes your Dual Lands now too (eventually). 

Transitioning eternal formats may be a bit of a painful process, but once we get there we'll be in a better place.
I never really understood the line of reasoning that goes behind Beta/Unlimited/Etc cards tanking in price because of reprints. First editions of novels, board games, even video games do not go down in value when a new edition is printed, and I really don't see any reason for Magic cards to behave differently.  A Beta edition of a card is still rare, and therefore valuable.  Having the dual lands reprinted should have very little impact on the collectible value of the existing cards.
Legacy is my favorite format, over the years I've slowly built up my collection to where I have a good number of legacy staples in my collection (though I only own a playset of taiga and a couple of bayou's and plataeu's as far as the dual lands go).

What annoys me about modern is the ban list seems way to conservative, everytime I've had an idea for a deck I've hit problems with a card being on the banlist.

I sleeved up a midrange aggro deck only to find that jitte is banned.

I tried to make a White weenie deck then Stoneforge gets banned,

I made a bant deck (with jace as the win con), jace is banned, oh and so is ancestral visions.

Then there are other cards that are banned that leave me scratching my head like div top and chrome mox (Div top I can understand if they don't want counter balance decks but why not ban counter balance then).

Without seeing much of the meta my feeling is that combo and control are not good enough, I suspect the format will be dominated by aggro decks at least for a while and thats partly the banned lists fault. Of course I'm just looking at the format through legacy tinted glasses, I guess I'll give it a few months and see what happens.
Top is banned entirely for slowing games down. Dunno how much Magic Online you play, but pretty much every time the card is used 40 seconds get burned off the clock.  It really does slow games down bad.
Thanks for the feedback.

While I agree there is a lot of background information, I don't feel like the entire article is obvious. Predicting that Wizards will reprint cards in stand-alone products to engineer the price of Modern tournament staples downward to maximize player base and profit doesn't seem obvious to me. I mean, I could be wrong!

That is the whoile purpose of Modern - An eternal format where they don't have to worry about prices.

If you track its evolution, the first idea for an eternal format not haunted by reprint policy was by Ben Bleisweiss of SCG, dubbed Overextended, that was Mercadian Masques/7th forward. Eventually, Modern was proposed by Wizards inlieu of Overextended, stated by Tomn Lapille.

I hear what you're saying about the the slap in the face being you can't play with your power 9 because Vintage is obsoleted. But, hasn't that already happened? I guess Modern obsoletes your Dual Lands now too (eventually). 

That's exactly the point. The high price barrier to Vintage killed it, because you can't compete without Power/Duals and they're obscenely expensive. And they couldn't be reprinted. Again, thus Modern.
The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
If, however, Wizards added the mighty Tarmogoyf to the next core set as a mythic rare, you now have extra demand on the new core set which sells more cards for Wizards, and since there are now more goyfs in the world now, its price drops. Interestingly, the fairly recent of invention of the mythic rare can be used in this case to have a more controlled price drop of a reprinted card (as opposed to reprinting at rare). This is a win-win situation: Wizards makes money off a high demand reprint and players have access to cheaper cards.



There is a problem with this reasoning: if Tarmogoyf was reprinted in any Standard-legal set, demand for it would increase dramatically, so its price would in fact shoot up. The same is true for most cards that are good in Modern. Especially shocklands. If these were to be reprinted, two-colored Standard decks would play 4 and three-colored around 10.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Yes and no. Yes, prices would shoot up initially. Then, a year later, they´d drop to just about the same level because there would be more of them, but they would also be playable in Extended. Then, once they rotate out of there they would drop again.

I´d really rather see some of the staples reprinted. Even if prices are a bit higher, there would also be more of them to go around, which would make trading for them easier for a lot of players. This would mean that more players would feel that Modern is accesible - especially new players, seeing as they would need the same lands for Standard and Modern.

The problem is that Wizards don´t want to print powerful duals with a life cost, as they "don´t appeal as much to newer players". This means that if they were to be reprinted, it would likely not be in a Core Set, making each one harder to reprint in more than one set.

I still hope that we will see Shocklands in Standard. Now that the Zendikar Fetchlands are rotating out of the format, it´s also much more of a real possiblity, IMO. For some reason, I get the feeling that Wizards don´t want Standard to have fetches and Shocklands at the same time. =)
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I thought the post was well done and I feel much of that is my agreement with your opinions. I'm excited about Modern because ...

Its more accessible and not subject to the reprint policy
Its less subject to early design flaws like in legacy

Magic has come a long way from the early days where clearly overpowered and broken cards were printed and the few that we did have got banned immediately. While I do think cards like Jace TMS shouldn't be banned in the context of a huge card pool, they still wanted to nix the possibility.

I've said to my friends many times that I will not get into legacy. It is because despite the argument "they never rotate," I see no future in the format. It seems the amount of competitive legacy will always be restricted by the number of dual lands available /4. 

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I think you guys need to look up the definition of Eternal Format 

Nonrotational and Eternal are not the same thing Legacy and Vintage are the only Eternal Formats


Eternal


Eternal formats follow the basic Constructed format rules for deck construction, but expands the available cards to include virtually all published Magic sets. The ratings are kept separate from other Constructed formats because of the barrier to the participation of new players. While ratings and rankings are maintained for this category, only Limited and Constructed format rankings are used for invitations to major tournaments, like Pro Tours or World Championships.



  • Vintage (formerly Type 1) allows every published Magic set with the exception of the silver-bordered Unglued and Unhinged sets. All cards from the remaining sets are allowed except cards involving ante, any card that is "flipped" on the table, and Shahrazad, which involves playing a "subgame", as the DCI considers such cards inappropriate for tournament competition. The Vintage format is the only format to have a restricted list in addition to a banned list. Each card on the restricted list is limited to one per deck. This is the only format that allows the "Power Nine".

  • Legacy (formerly Type 1.5) uses the same sets as Vintage, but has no restricted list and a separate banned list[3].


Vintage and Legacy were very closely related until September 1, 2004, when R&D decided that splitting the formats was a good idea. Certain cards formerly banned in Legacy were unbanned and the format was allowed to develop on its own. Legacy once had a reputation for being the "poor man's Vintage" but today has developed into a format very distinct from Vintage.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCI_(Wizards_of_the_Coast)#Eternal


Eternal formats are DCI tournament formats which allow cards from all Magic: The Gathering sets with the standard card back and black or white borders. (Unglued and Unhinged have silver borders and are therefore not included.)


The two eternal formats are Vintage and Legacy.

wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Eternal_(format) 




 


 
Tourrant, you need to take a look at your own DCI page, and review what the old Extended (pre-chop) events fell under. I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Constructed rating. The old extended was an eternal format, precisely because "non-rotational" isn't a recognized format from the DCI.

There's been no announcement regarding which format Modern events will fall under, but given the previous extended formatting, my guess would be Eternal rating. Otherwise, the definition of Eternal formats becomes a bit arbitrary.

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[O]fficial word is that Modern events will fall under the Constructed rating category, not the Eternal category.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

[O]fficial word is that Modern events will fall under the Constructed rating category, not the Eternal category.



link?

EDIT- it still doesn't make sense why old extended would be eternal rating, and Modern would be constructed.

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I think you guys need to look up the definition of Eternal Format 

Nonrotational and Eternal are not the same thing Legacy and Vintage are the only Eternal Formats

Modern is a new format. Before Modern came along, the only Constructed formats that didn't rotate were Vintage and Legacy.

Since the normal English meaning of the word "eternal" is something that continues to exist forever into the future, without stating how far it went into the past, and, in any case, Magic: the Gathering only came into existence in 1992, not at the dawn of time... there was no obvious reason why the word "eternal" wouldn't apply to Modern.

Apparently, Wizards is going to choose to distinguish Modern from Vintage and Legacy, and not officially class it among the Eternal formats, as Zammm has noted. But there was no real reason for people to have known that ahead of time, which is why Modern has been referred to as a new Eternal format - rather than coining the new term "non-rotational format". Which, apparently, we will now need to do.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

Yeah, I kind of like Modern too. Now I just need to replace my five circle of protections from unlimited, and one from ice age, for the ones from 8th edtion...

Anyone want cards worth $3-5 For ones worth less from 8th? XD



I thought you could use them sense they were reprinted.
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Yeah, I kind of like Modern too. Now I just need to replace my five circle of protections from unlimited, and one from ice age, for the ones from 8th edtion..

No, no. Don't bother, because you don't need to. It's in the Tournament Rules. A Circle of Protection: Black can be played in a format in which cards with that name are legal, regardless of the set it came from. So you can play with a Beta Giant Spider in Standard, even though cards aren't legal in Standard because they were in Beta. A card that is legal because it was in Magic: 2011 is legal by its name, not by where it actually came from.

That's true in Modern too, even if the sets included were chosen by card frame.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

link?

Someone asked about it on the judge list.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Sort-of... By design Modern is the better format. Why? Because the "power" is marginalized, and the "power level" is streamlined to the modern Magic standards of post 7th Ed. The reason that this is important is that even though "staples" exist within the context of the format, each card has a limit to it's true utility (even intentionally powerful cards such as the Titan cycle), making the difference so marginal that subjectivity rules (ultimately a format where players can "use their cards") as opposed to being stuck on a few archetypes. Legacy had several older cards which were just plain crazy designs because they honestly didn't think Magic would live to see 7 years of age. But for as much as design and R&D learned about card design and appropriate amounts of utility Wizard's was violated in business practice too, which is the real reason for this format.


The problem this format will have though is a very simple one and the reason why certain rivaling games have been on the decline for years: people don't want to play an expensive TCG. I remember when I was younger one of the appeals to Magic was that the cards were sold on their subjective cost, but that usually meant that wicked good cards went for more than $1, and a $10 card was unheard of. Today, within a years time, in two different formats we have seen 2 cards break the $100 mark without even being on the reserved list, and every special product released that is specfically for brick and mortar shops has a jacked up price in reality because why charge MSRP when people want to play bad enough? Honestly, Wizards needs to find a way to force Brick and Mortars (as well as online retailers) to play nice with their customers or the customers are going to start disappearing, and probably take their friends as well.

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Sort-of... By design Modern is the better format. Why? Because the "power" is marginalized, and the "power level" is streamlined to the modern Magic standards of post 7th Ed. The reason that this is important is that even though "staples" exist within the context of the format, each card has a limit to it's true utility (even intentionally powerful cards such as the Titan cycle), making the difference so marginal that subjectivity rules (ultimately a format where players can "use their cards") as opposed to being stuck on a few archetypes. Legacy had several older cards which were just plain crazy designs because they honestly didn't think Magic would live to see 7 years of age. But for as much as design and R&D learned about card design and appropriate amounts of utility Wizard's was violated in business practice too, which is the real reason for this format.


The problem this format will have though is a very simple one and the reason why certain rivaling games have been on the decline for years: people don't want to play an expensive TCG. I remember when I was younger one of the appeals to Magic was that the cards were sold on their subjective cost, but that usually meant that wicked good cards went for more than $1, and a $10 card was unheard of. Today, within a years time, in two different formats we have seen 2 cards break the $100 mark without even being on the reserved list, and every special product released that is specfically for brick and mortar shops has a jacked up price in reality because why charge MSRP when people want to play bad enough? Honestly, Wizards needs to find a way to force Brick and Mortars (as well as online retailers) to play nice with their customers or the customers are going to start disappearing, and probably take their friends as well.


A very sound business oriented statement. This is very true, but demand is still high. Market forces have proven that they are willing to absorb the obviously inflated costs surrounding cards such as JTMS. Could wizards print more and lower price? Yes. But when stores can't keep them on the shelves at 100 dollars, why bother? Until we the players say no collectively, your assessment will unfortunately ring hollow. In the future, I think we could see this prediction come to fruition if the trend forces card even farther into the triple digit range, coupled with the declining value of the USD...
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