MBC (Discard)

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My very first control deck was a discard deck and when ever something new comes along I always look at it and see how discard could work within it.  After modern finially came out on the gatherer, this is the list that I thought of.



Now I have yet to do any testing with this deck, or even formulate a sideboard, but I was curious about what the concessus would be about this deck, or even the viablility of this deck type in this format.  (I also have been brainstorming up an idea about a R/B version of this deck with cards like Blightning and Pain Magnification)
Blightning good, Pain Magnification bad.

You're also going to get rolled over by Zoo. You've got 2 doom blades and some gatekeepers.

Also, Distress... bad. Inquisition... good.

Lili's spec probably better than Hyppie spec without ritual.

Mimic Vat won't work here.

You're going to get eaten by Zoo when you're on the draw and the go t1 nacatl.

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There are so many better discard spells. Grul draz specter and painful quandary are way too slow. Use the rack, nyxathid and nezumi shortfang. Also why are you using sign in blood when phyrexian arena and bob are legal. 
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In addition to the cards mentioned in the previous posts, other cards to consider are Smallpox and Wrench Mind.
My Trade Thread Control capabilities are in all the colors. The difference is in the way they say no.
And Stupor. And Tarmogoyf. Augur of Skulls, maybe?

Hmm... Deathcloud TarmoRack?
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I am thinking of trying out a MBC build, but I am thinking that it should be largely made up of discard and destruction, with Phyrexian Obliterator, Exsanguinate, and Kokusho, the Evening Star as win cons.

Something like:

Creatures:
2x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Phyrexian Obliterator
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dimir House Guard
2x Magus of the Coffers

Non-Creature Spells:
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Dismember
4x Damnation
2x Exsanguinate

Land:
4x Bojuka Bog
19 other lands

That is spitballing, but it is the kind of thing that I think could keep Zoo from gaining much of a foothold.
Don't forget Tombstalker that card should still be good in most black lists
After posting this, I realized that I had not put in as many destruction spells as I normally would, and that that would mean a large disadvantage against zoo.

I will be updating this list soon, but I wanted to defend one of my card choices.

Painful Quandary is a much much better card than The Rack and similar cards.  One of the major problems with discard control is when the other player is in top deck mode (which you will force earlier than normal) you basically have run out of things to do.  With The Rack out they have no reason to not play things because the difference between having 1 card in hand and no cards in hand is 1 damage.  With PQ out the difference is 5 damage.  This either keeps cards in their hands, or you are doing 5 damage a turn to them, either of which is a good point for you.

And although I'm more willing to cut it, Guul Draz Specter forces the same kind of bad choices on the opponent.
I hate both Painful Quandry and The Rack. The Rack hasn't excited me since standard was 4th edition through Mirage Block.

But to defend the Rack... it costs 1. You're going to run into many games where you'll never even get a chance to cast a 5cc spell in Modern.

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I could put together a good rack deck for modern. Should not be to hard with the card pool being what it is.
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Does no one play Megrim any more? 

 Also, Coercion is expensive for 3 mana, but it gives you freedom...

oh how I wish Hymn to Tourach legal for modern, that would be a good addition. 

Now i'm gonna go make a MBC deck now. brb.  
Niche:  If a control deck is unable to get to 5 mana then it's doing something wrong.  If you don't think a control deck can reliably slow down the pace of aggro enough to at least do that, then I don't see how control can survive any itteration in this meta.

Tratnula: Megrim is not a good card for a discard deck for a few reasons.  The easiest one is the presence of Liliana's Caress.  The other problem is that you will likely only get it to trigger a few times before you empty the hand of the other player.  Once in top-deck mode it becomes a useless card.  Top-deck is a discard strategy's greatest weakness, and you must find a way to control it.

And here's a question for y'all:  How do you think Phyrexian Obliterator will fare in this meta?
Actually, after reading Mike's newest article I am thinking not well.  Dismember means that */5 creatures without shroud are a waste of time to wait for.  It really depends on how well and consistently you can empty your opponent's hand, otherwise I would play Kokusho and/or Abyssal Persecutor instead. 
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4 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smother
4 Wrench Mind
4 Blightning

4 Ravenous Rats
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nyxxathid

Hmmm.....
Alright, so new version of the deck...



So to the changes:  I upped the number of kill spells (6 spells plus 4 sacrifice effects)  I also added in Augur of Skulls in order to put that final hit into their hand.  I also added in Pyrexian Obliterators in order to put further pressure on the opponent (they have to deal with it somehow, even if it's with a Dismember I still come out ahead).

Stop with the Painful Quandary please.  Ditch the Duress/Distress and go with a full set of Inquisition's and Seizes.

If you want to pay a bunch of mana to put them in a tight spot, just use Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine or Corrupt or Mind Shatter or Exsanguinate or another Lashwrite etc..

Alternatively, throw in some red and use Burning Inquiry with Megrim/Liliana's Caress and maybe Fiery Temper/Call to the Netherworld.

why you not play mind shatter?

what is wrong with you OP?

also if you really want to be a terrible person, play quest for the nihil stone so that you actually have a clock that doesn't cost alot.

since the guy should have no cards in hand if you actually play correctly, this card should be a sufficient way to kill the oppoent very fast.

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I have to tell you, I'm running a standard discard deck right now, and Painful Quandry is more often than not the card that will turn a close game in my favor, and has pulled me out of many many tough spots.  Forcing the opponent to pay additional costs on top of playing their own spells makes them much more frugal with them, and gives you a chance to pull ahead.

Actually I'm not sure how I forgot about Wurmcoil Engine, I will definatly run those over PO.
I have to tell you, I'm running a standard discard deck right now, and Painful Quandry is more often than not the card that will turn a close game in my favor, and has pulled me out of many many tough spots.  Forcing the opponent to pay additional costs on top of playing their own spells makes them much more frugal with them, and gives you a chance to pull ahead.

Actually I'm not sure how I forgot about Wurmcoil Engine, I will definatly run those over PO.



Painful Quandry is painfully easy to play around. As a bribery style card in the vein of Browbeat, Dash hopes and Temporal Extortion it is far too easy for a skilled player to punish you for letting THEM make the decisions and not YOU FORCING THEM ON THEM.

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"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes


why you not play mind shatter?

what is wrong with you OP?

also if you really want to be a terrible person, play quest for the nihil stone so that you actually have a clock that doesn't cost alot.

since the guy should have no cards in hand if you actually play correctly, this card should be a sufficient way to kill the oppoent very fast.



I would be willing to try Mind Shatter in my sideboard, but the reason I'm not main-boarding it is because it's more or less useless against aggro decks.  Most of the decks I've been seeing as the "big decks" have either been aggro or combo.  I am constructing my main board around that assumption.

Also Quest for the Nihil Stone is a horrible card for this type of deck (it's not really a good card in the first place).  The problem with it is that I would never actually want to draw it past turn 3.  Once I have emptied their hand I won't be getting cards on it unless I can force them to keep cards in there hand (strangly enough that might mean that it can combo out with Painful Quandry, but this deck does not have room for cards that are useless lategame without a specific card on the field).


Painful Quandry is painfully easy to play around. As a bribery style card in the vein of Browbeat, Dash hopes and Temporal Extortion it is far too easy for a skilled player to punish you for letting THEM make the decisions and not YOU FORCING THEM ON THEM.


The thing that makes Painful Quandry differant than all the other cards you have named is that if the deck is working correctly by the time turn 5 has come around the other player shouldn't have many chances to pay one of the costs.  In order to play around PQ you must either sacrifice cards/tempo or life, either of which is good for me. However if you keep sacrificing cards to it, you will eventually run out of cards, and then you either must slow down, or pay life, either of which, once again, is good for me.  The other difference is that PQ is a continuous effect, while those other ones are one time effects.
I have been testing this MBC deck, and so far it has a really good game against Zoo pre-board.

Creatures:
3x Kokusho, the Evening Star
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir

Other Spells:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Dismember
4x Damnation
4x Sign in Blood
2x Exsanguinate

Land:
19x Swamp
4x Bojuka Bog

Why Exsanguinate over Consume Spirit?  Also how important does Damnation end up being in your deck?  (I noticed that you are running no spot removal at all)
To be honest, I choose Exsanguinate due to having blinders on.  I have been playing EDH for the most part for the last couple years, and Exsanguinate is by far a better card in that format.  In a one on one format, and especially in a mono black deck, the classic stand-by Consume Spirit is a better choice.  Good call.

As for spot removal, so far between Deathtouch, forced sacrifice, and mass-removal it has kept weenie boards from getting too dangerous.  Abyssal Persecuter has been a beast so far, and I frequently can hold back a damnation to cast after I get my opponent's life down to zero.
To be honest, I choose Exsanguinate due to having blinders on.  I have been playing EDH for the most part for the last couple years, and Exsanguinate is by far a better card in that format.  In a one on one format, and especially in a mono black deck, the classic stand-by Consume Spirit is a better choice.  Good call.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with both of you (and considering his opinions on Painful Quandry...).

1. Exsanguinate doesn't target, this IS a big deal.

2. Corrupt is in the format.
To be honest, I choose Exsanguinate due to having blinders on.  I have been playing EDH for the most part for the last couple years, and Exsanguinate is by far a better card in that format.  In a one on one format, and especially in a mono black deck, the classic stand-by Consume Spirit is a better choice.  Good call.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with both of you (and considering his opinions on Painful Quandry...).

1. Exsanguinate doesn't target, this IS a big deal.

2. Corrupt is in the format.


Corrupt is a possibility to look at, but I cannot think of a deck I have seen proposed for Modern that runs a card that makes a player untargetable, thus making Exsanguinate relevant.
Actually, I'm going to disagree with both of you (and considering his opinions on Painful Quandry...).

1. Exsanguinate doesn't target, this IS a big deal.

2. Corrupt is in the format.



1.  The ability to target only matters if the opponent has a way to make themselves untargettable (which would put a damper on any discard deck) or the ability to change targets, neither of which are common or even expected stratagies.  I would think the ability to target a creature is worth more than the off chance a rogue deck might have the spell to mess with it.

2.  Corrupt isn't as flexible of a card.  I would have to wait until I had 6 mana, preferably all of it in the form of swamps (which precludes the use of non-basic lands) in order to use it.  I agree that you might get more use out of it as a finisher, as it would deal 2 more damage than either of the other two (again only if you ran only swamps), but the ability to take out a troublesome creature when you haven't drawn any removal (or have already used it) without having to wait that long makes Consume Spirit much more versitile (and yes, I see that Corrupt can target creatures, but only after getting enough mana for it)


Corrupt is ridiculously more flexible than Consume Spirit and Exsanguinate.

I wish you guys who don't know what they're talking about regarding black spells would just stop.

Also, I instantly regret bumping this thread.

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"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Corrupt is ridiculously more flexible than Consume Spirit and Exsanguinate.

I wish you guys who don't know what they're talking about regarding black spells would just stop.

Also, I instantly regret bumping this thread.



This.

Also, have you figure out mono black for this format yet? 
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Corrupt is ridiculously more flexible than Consume Spirit and Exsanguinate.

I wish you guys who don't know what they're talking about regarding black spells would just stop.

Also, I instantly regret bumping this thread.


It really depends on your land base.  If you are not running many utility lands then Corrupt is pretty safe to play, but if you are running a lot of non-swamps and you do not feel that Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is consistent enough then you are better off with Consume Spirit.

Niche, I am not sure what makes you feel like you can talk down to people and treat them so poorly, but you are wrong...nothing gives you that right.  If people choose not to listen to your explanation, or disagree with you despite it, you still do not have to be so insulting.  Instead try to be an adult and either move on or try another tact.
I'm not certain what gives you the right to attack me. Forums are for a freedom of thought and opinion as long as you substantiate it with content of value that is on topic and do not make personal attacks on individuals... like you just did to me.

Regarding adulthood, I can personally guarantee you that I'm your elder... probably in multiples.

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"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

I'm not certain what gives you the right to attack me. Forums are for a freedom of thought and opinion as long as you substantiate it with content of value that is on topic and do not make personal attacks on individuals... like you just did to me.

Regarding adulthood, I can personally guarantee you that I'm your elder... probably in multiples.


You are in your 70's then?  I am 37, so while you may be older than me, you are not likely older than me in multiples.  My statment that you are not acting like an adult (not that you were young) could be interpreted as an attack, and for that I apologize.  The rest was not an attack but an assesment of the tone of your post.
I'm not certain what gives you the right to attack me. Forums are for a freedom of thought and opinion as long as you substantiate it with content of value that is on topic and do not make personal attacks on individuals... like you just did to me.

Regarding adulthood, I can personally guarantee you that I'm your elder... probably in multiples.


You are in your 70's then?  I am 37, so while you may be older than me, you are not likely older than me in multiples.  My statment that you are not acting like an adult (not that you were young) could be interpreted as an attack, and for that I apologize.  The rest was not an attack but an assesment of the tone of your post.



This is why it is generally best not to make comments on specific individuals. There is only one way to interpret something directed in such a manner, and when it is of a critical nature towards said person it's basically a violation of the CoC.

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"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

And telling people that they "don't know what they are talking about" and implying that they should stop expressing themselves is not critical?  It is demeaning and insulting.
And telling people that they "don't know what they are talking about" and implying that they should stop expressing themselves is not critical?  It is demeaning and insulting.



Understand my stance is only to stop the flow of misinformation. I generally only speak authoritatively on subjects I know I've got the experience to do so on. If I tell someone they're making bad evaluations on black cards they'd do well to take it to heart.

When people ignore me and continue to spout off things that a casual forum reader can skim over and begin making decisions on it is doing everyone a disservice.

As far as me making a sweeping statement about people who don't know what they're talking about... stopping... perhaps if one of these people is taking it to heart they'd do well to listen.

If you feel it necessary to make another post on this off-topic topic go ahead. I'm done. I'm not going to get into this any further with you.

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"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes

If you feel it necessary to make another post on this off-topic topic go ahead. I'm done. I'm not going to get into this any further with you.


I will say that in my testing against Zoo I have found a number of instances in which Consume Spirit would have helped me, while Corrupt is dead in my hand.  I do not have the time at the moment to elaborate (be happy to later), but suffice to say I am not finding this issue so cut and dry.
The only target you're going to be able to consume at a relevant turn before Zoo just kills you is Bob on turn 3. The rest of it will live through any consume played before turn 5. That is terribly too late.

If you want the lifegain + removal to beat Zoo, please refer to Tendrils of Corruption.

If you want flexibility for ability to remove creatures on turn 6, win, or remove planeswalkers you want Corrupt.

The games where Consume on 5 is going to save you are largely better handled by tendrils. The games where you won with a Consume to the face are better handled by Corrupt.

This is hard numbers stuff. Especially without Dark Ritual to help out.

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I actually want to go back to your first statement, that Corrupt is more flexible than Consume Spirit (you also said it was more flexible than Exsanguinate, which I'm going to just assume was a mistake on your part).  You have not backed that up any where else up since than.  You may beleive that it's a better card because on turn 6 it is a stronger choice than Consume Spirit, but even that's a conditional statement.  If you are running anything in your mana base other than Swamps then you are nuturing your spell.  You may beleive that this is such a minor problem as it does not come up very often in mono black (as the decks here have been), but that restriction in and of it's self makes Corrupt less flexible than Consume Spriit.  That coupled with the high mana cost of Corrupt makes me wonder about what you are talking about when you say it is more flexible.

I also find it interesting that you are defending a spell with a cmc of 6, while earlier in this very post you said you were unsure if a control deck could hold out till turn 5.  If that's true then why would you want to play a spell that may sit dead in your hand while your life total trickles down?
Here is my best recollection of how the games were going:

It was turn 5, and in hand I was holding Corrupt, Thoughtseize, Kokusho, Swamp, Swamp.  In play I had 2 swamps, Urborg, Bojuka Bog.  My life total is 5, and last turn I swept with Damnation.  Throughout the early game I have played a couple of discard spells, and a Gatekeper.  Zoo now controls a Wild Nacatl (3/3) and Kird Ape (2/3) that were played last turn and will be able to swing at me for the win next turn, and is in top-deck mode.  If that Corrupt was a Consume Spirit then I could play a swamp and Consume the Nacatl to get rid of it, and bring my life total up to 8. 

Now that is a very specific set of circumstances, but it is a real one (as close as I can remember) that I have faced.  In addition there have other instances where Consume Spirit would have delayed the game long enough for me to win.  The fact that I have to wait to play Corrupt until I have 6 mana available also gets in the way of playing Kokusho, not to mention a 6 mana card from Innistrad I want to try.  I am not discounting any reasonable card at this point, but so far Corrupt is looking too expensive for my curve.
The games where Consume on 5 is going to save you are largely better handled by tendrils. The games where you won with a Consume to the face are better handled by Corrupt.

That is true, but I do not have room for two spells, and what if I draw one when I need the other.  Consume Spirit may do both slightly worse, but it does do both, and in a deck with so few spots for this card (I am only running 2x) I would rather have the flexibility in that case and am willing to sacrifice a little quality.
I actually want to go back to your first statement, that Corrupt is more flexible than Consume Spirit (you also said it was more flexible than Exsanguinate, which I'm going to just assume was a mistake on your part).



Corrupt is more flexible than Exsanguinate. Exsanguinate does one thing only.


You have not backed that up any where else up since than.


You mean except for the post I made before this reply?

You may beleive that it's a better card because on turn 6 it is a stronger choice than Consume Spirit, but even that's a conditional statement.  If you are running anything in your mana base other than Swamps then you are nuturing your spell.  You may beleive that this is such a minor problem as it does not come up very often in mono black (as the decks here have been), but that restriction in and of it's self makes Corrupt less flexible than Consume Spriit.  That coupled with the high mana cost of Corrupt makes me wonder about what you are talking about when you say it is more flexible.


If you find yourself running extra colors in Modern and don't have all swamps in play then you've built an inferior deck. Examples: Overgrown Tomb and Godless Shrine

There is an extremely narrow window where Consume Spirit can have value that is relevant over Corrupt... and that is on turn 5 as a creature removal for 3. From that second forward Corrupt outstrips it in power as 6 mana for 6 damage versus 6 mana for 4 damage from Consume. Consume is constantly behind the 8-ball so to speak once Corrupt is online.

That said Consume Spirit as a removal spell on turn 5 is a distant second behind Tendrils of Corruption. Tendrils begins immediately outstripping Consume's strength on 4 moving forward. And it is instant speed.

Ultimately this means Consume's value points are turn 3 to kill Bob to be better than Tendrils... or turn 5 to kill any 1cc creature in Zoo as a brutal tempo loss to be better than Corrupt.

I also find it interesting that you are defending a spell with a cmc of 6, while earlier in this very post you said you were unsure if a control deck could hold out till turn 5.  If that's true then why would you want to play a spell that may sit dead in your hand while your life total trickles down?


You would need earlier plays to get you to Corrupt. Such as Tendrils... or you need acceleration to make Corrupt a turn 5 play.

DrWorm, I think you've reinforced the point that Consume's value is turn 5 which I had indicated already. If you only have 2 slots free you're probably better served just using Tendrils.

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Favorite Quotes

"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." - Laurence J. Peter 
"It is the province of knowledge to speak, and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.” - Oliver Wendell Holmes