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I havent read the L&L yet, but based on reactions, yeah, just make skills work like d20 combat. I would be unhappy with incompatable rules for skills. Anyway, now Il go read what the L&L article is saying.
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A moderately skilled character still faces the hazard of a poor roll leading to failure even at relatively low DCs or high chances of success. The routine skill check is almost always still dangerous in D&D.
that pressure gives a big incentive for players to absolutely maximize their skills. With an increasing gap between the specialist and the guy who has made zero investment in a skill, a DM might have trouble creating appropriate challenges.
The main drawback to a system like this is the same as with all description-based systems - everyone has a different idea of what "easy" or "hard" is, just like the practice of saying "you're moderately wounded" (while refusing to give out hit point numbers) leads to everyone having a different idea of just how hurt the character actually is. I could see a split-the-difference approach though: keep DCs and the d20, but your skill modifier becomes your minimum roll (rather like Brutal X for damage rolls now) rather than something you add to the roll. Now there's automatic success for activities up to a point, while still allowing unskilled characters to get lucky on occasion. And if something really is impossible then it gets to be DC 21 - unless a clever plan reduces it. (Circumstantial modifiers change the DC rather than providing a bonus/penalty to the check.) This also allows the subsystem to continue "talking" to the other subsystems, because it's still using a d20-based structure.
58292718 wrote:I love Horseshoecrabfolk.
What I love most about them is that they seem to be the one thing that we all can agree on.
The only thing i dont like about this method is without a good metric to measure against the DCs could wildly vary from DM to DM.
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If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
This system feels very realistic but not very heroic. I think this is a case of matching mechanics with genre. I'd like this system in a modern game but not in a Star Wars game or high fantasy D&D. However it'd work well in A Game of Thrones RPG where realism trumps high action drama.Fundamentally at its best D&D is about what happens when the Volcano blow's sky high and you have tor run for your lives. Not going to happen in A Game of Thrones RPG because its to improbable. But in D&D this is what its all about and the frantic adrenalin induced dice rolling to see if we can escape is where the fun is found. Luck, especially improbable luck - good and bad - is what its all about. THat's when the shouting begins and we get in trouble with the hosts wife because we are making too much noise.
I like the suggested system, mainly because it is more simluationist, and I prefer that kind of game. One thing I really don't like about 4e is the "auto scaling" DCs as PC gain levels. The only thing I might change is that there shouldn't be an auto failure, just increasing penalties to the check (or maybe 2 ranks below, you still check at a larger penalty, then 3 ranks below ok auto fail).
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I realise that ... but it's still basically just a refluffing cop-out... In older editions you had "hardcoded" DCs for increasingly difficult tasks ... which yes involved lots of tables, but I have no problem with that.
I really like this idea, but I fear many old time D&D players ( many players, old and new, in fact) won't be attracted to it. I think "automatic success" is too far away from their playing habits - this is a concept very convincing if you think more of adventures as stories, less if you think more of them as " puzzles" your characters must solve, and you find both schools, and every step between, in the "D&D crowd".
Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairnessReflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character)
Even in Skill Challenges, people work as a team incidentally. Each player tosses his best Skills into the ring, and then they try to make sense of it and see which ones will garner the requisite successes. The Skills are not designed to make people with diverse abilities cooperate or synergize in any way. It's not teamwork. If he wants a radical change, Skills should be reoriented. They are designed to work as if the adventurer was operating alone. They should be designed to work as if the adventurer is part of a team of professional adventurers.
but there is already that in place. races giving bonuses to your teammates skills, powers etc, also wilderness knacks helping the team climb. maybe it could be expanded but its already there
but there is already that in place. races giving bonuses to your teammates skills, powers etc, also wilderness knacks helping the team climb. maybe it could be expanded but its already thereStatic bonuses is not teamwork. The elf doesn't do anything to make you better at Perception. He's just radiating an aura or magical eye-improvement.The fighter is actively marking people with his attacks. The wizard is choosing spells to capitalize on the fighter's strengths. People need ways to ensure they are able to participate in any skill challenge in a way that is meaningful, active, and consistent with their character.
i am interested in what your specific solutions to your perceived lack of teamwork in skill use would be, if not providing a flavorful bonus to the skill
Why is it such an issue for some people? The wizard can decipher the strange runes scrawled into the cavern wall, but the fighter cannot. So?
Yes, the skill monkey will be able to do a great many things that some of the others cannot. Th other side of this coin is that the skill monkey, having dumped so many resources into his skills, is likely going to come up short elsewhere. This is where his teammates come in.
Wrecan - I agree that team work should be favored.Maybe a character with a higher skill rank than the difficulty could "give" his excess ranks to a less skilled character for an action (the master helps the novice to climb the wall).
First and most importantly, the biggest issue with skills is the failure to tightly contain the math of skill bonuses. This STILL has not been addressed explicitly. Can we get a commitment to fix the math.Secondly, I'm not sure the proposal adds value. IT would be just as easy to say that Trained always succeeds at easy tasks and Well trained always succeeds at easy and moderate tasks as to introduce the convolutions described.Third, If it doesn't add value, there is negative value in deviationg from a universal system by making one part of the game function one way, and one another.I would almost rather see skills challenges involve an accumulation of success points (SP). You roll vs. DC and then based on ability score, feat and item investment you accumulate SP in the same way that accumulationg HPs removes mosnters. You could even design skill challenges with multiple obstacles each of which has it's own separate DCs and mechanics. Hmm ... must ponder.