So what's the deal with Modern?

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What's up with the new Modern format? Will it replace t2 as the staple for FNMs, will it be the new most popular format? If not, what's the fuss? Just a new format that has people excited?
What's up with the new Modern format? Will it replace t2 as the staple for FNMs, will it be the new most popular format? If not, what's the fuss? Just a new format that has people excited?



It's just a new format that didn't have its own section until about 10 hours ago.  People should probably stop talking about Modern here now that it was created.  And t2 won't be replaced, it makes wizards too much money, it will probably replace ext.
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That's what I thought, but then I came on the T2 forums and saw a bunch of threads so I become curious. Thank you. 
Since we have a section for modern now, to modern general this goes!
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If not, what's the fuss? Just a new format that has people excited?

That's a long story.

Extended - previously known as Type 1.x - is a format that was perceived as being in trouble, and so it's recently been changed to include fewer sets. This didn't improve matters or make them worse.

It's not clear if Extended will be "replaced", although, given that Modern replaced Extended as the format for a specific event, people are wondering about that.

But it's not going to replace Standard - previously known as Type 2. Standard is safe.

Instead, one reason for a fuss is that a lot of people were afraid it would effectively replace Legacy - formerly known as Type 1.5.

I'll start this long story at the beginning. Maybe not the very beginning, because that was when Hovercraft was a voice crying in the wilderness.

Remember when the Duel Deck product Phyrexia vs. the Coalition came out... with a foil copy of Phyrexian Negator? A card on the Reserved List?

This astonished everyone. Yes, it was a foil card, and thus a premium item, but it was still a tournament-legal reprint of a card on the Reserved List. Many people didn't think that could happen. Basically because they weren't aware of what had been going on with judge foils.

A few other cards on the Reserved List ended up being reprinted that way - but the day after that Duel Decks set came out, Wizards announced it was tightening up the Reprint Policy, and once these planned items came out, this would never happen again.

There were howls of protest.

Some were because this looked like a pretty gutless move on Wizards' part, because the reprints involved were harmless ones that wouldn't hurt people who owned the original cards involved.

But the big issue in the protests was that many people were disappointed that this meant Wizards would never reprint the original dual lands, which they felt was necessary to allow more people to play Legacy.

Some people, and I was one of them, suggested that instead of complaining about something that wasn't likely to be changed, we could make a more constructive suggestion to Wizards. If the original duals aren't going to be reprinted, how about a new format that, like Legacy, doesn't rotate, but which would have a later starting point.

Eventually, an article by Ben Blewiss on the Star City Games forum gave the proposal the name by which it was best known: Overextended.

Modern has a later starting point than Overextended, about two years later (Eighth Edition/Mirrodin instead of Mercadian Masques/Seventh Edition).

But because of the wider banned list, Modern isn't really going to be a place for playing all those old cards that have rotated out of Extended without having to go to the expense of playing Legacy. The good stuff from Chrome Mox to Jace, the Mind Sculptor is all banned... only a few of the fancier old cards, like Tarmogoyf and Baneslayer Angel are left in the format.

On the other hand, the broad banned list gives Modern a chance to have a diverse meta with lots of different viable deck types, which is perhaps the biggest reason for the current popularity of Legacy.

On that topic, I found a page where the early B&R list announcements were archived.

In the very earliest days of Type 1 (now known as Vintage) Mind Twist and Channel were banned. So it wasn't always the case that only ante, dexterity, and Shahrazad were banned in Vintage.

In 2004, Chrome Mox was banned in Legacy, so it's powerful enough that banning it in Modern apparently isn't all that unreasonable; at least it's not unprecedented. (This was along with Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond which were added at the same time.)

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Instead, one reason for a fuss is that a lot of people were afraid it would effectively replace Legacy - formerly known as Type 1.5.

It definitely will, Quad.  The only unknown is exactly how long it's going to take Legacy to rot away from natural attrition, as more and more Legacy players give up and/or wander off, but refuse to sell those Dual Lands while doing so.

Instead, one reason for a fuss is that a lot of people were afraid it would effectively replace Legacy - formerly known as Type 1.5.

It definitely will, Quad.  The only unknown is exactly how long it's going to take Legacy to rot away from natural attrition, as more and more Legacy players give up and/or wander off, but refuse to sell those Dual Lands while doing so.



Yea, I think that is pretty accurate.  I really don't like the idea of a vital format dieing under it's own weight, but the fact remains that unless the reprint list it abolished Legacy and Vintage will be historical oddities in the future.
Yea, I think that is pretty accurate.  I really don't like the idea of a vital format dieing under it's own weight, but the fact remains that unless the reprint list it abolished Legacy and Vintage will be historical oddities in the future.

I don't disagree with that.

I disagree when people say that the Reprint Policy could easily be abolished, and Wizards is just being unreasonable.

I disagree when people say that Modern or Overextended is what would kill Legacy, rather than attrition and the cost of the dual lands, which the new format doesn't change.

Still, Legacy is pretty popular at the moment, so I think it will be a while before it's a historical oddity... while Vintage is pretty much there already.

But since you've noted that both Legacy and Vintage are being lost - then maybe my recent suggestion that we could do with a "new Vintage" - Overextended with a restricted list instead of a banned list - plus Modern as the "new Legacy" isn't all that weird.

However, I've been doing some more thinking about this. And I'm wondering if the format I really want, given my thinking about a Base Set in addition to the Core Set, might be the following:

Allowed sets:

Sixth Edition
Mercadian Masques, Nemesis, Prophecy
Invasion, Planeshift, Apocalypse
Seventh Edition
Odyssey, Torment, Judgment
Onslaught, Legions, Scourge

Any Core Set currently legal in Standard

The most recent block expansion

Thus, core sets rotate out of this format the same time as they do out of Standard; block expansion sets rotate out one year earlier. The principle that all rotations take place in October stays in place.

The idea behind this format is that there's constant change, to keep things interesting... because the current set is part of it. But the format is still dominated by an unchanging old card pool. But still post-Reserved List and post-Sixth Edition rules change.

So it combines old and new - it's a living, changing format, but it's also still Magic the way it used to be as it was fondly remembered by some.

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I think the idea of not going with overextended was to not outright kill legacy. Modern will have a large effect on legacy, but I think legacy will survive. Extended is dead on arrival though.
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I disagree when people say that Modern or Overextended is what would kill Legacy, rather than attrition and the cost of the dual lands, which the new format doesn't change.

It accellerates the process substantially.
Legacy slowly killed Vintage by being an affordable alternative to the $5000+ Lotus/Mox/Drain/Shop buy-in, and Modern will kill Legacy by being an affordable alternative to the $1000 Duals/Fow/Tabernacle buy-in.
Modern itself will then eventually be killed by some other format as an alternative to whatever-the-hell ends up grossly overvauled due to Wizards's refusal to reprint some-odd card (you know, for the collectors), while refusing to ban that same card because it's a pet card/deck of someone in Renton or possibly even a malevolent intent to poison the format.
...while refusing to ban that same card because it's a pet card/deck of someone in Renton or possibly even a malevolent intent to poison the format.


Perhaps I am more optomistic that wizards has learned from it's mistake with the reprint policy and will not make the same promises in the future.
Or they could just print snowland-duals and ship them in a packaging shell similar to the Commander pre-cons. Gets around the reprint policy, maintains the value of the original duals, and gets more poeple into the legacy format.

SCG has basically proven that legacy is an economically viable format - I doubt Hasbro's response to such a showing is "kill it"...


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So you guys think shocklands will get reprinted. Blue shocks already going for 25 to 35 a pop. Revised dual lands u can pick up for 50 to 80 its nuts
They have to be, unless they want to see modern share the same fate as the new extended format. Virtually every card in the modern format can be reprinted, so WotC has a release valve in regards to "price of entry". Also, you can bet your ass that we will start seeing a premium deck series for modern staples.

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Wow awesome i hope so. If we buy a set of shocks now it might be a bad idea bc price will go down with a reprint. Im prob just gonna get exactly the ones i would need to start up a couple decks

I think im going to like this fornat. Lil cheaper eternal format that takes at least a good 4 turns to win or a lil more
So you guys think shocklands will get reprinted. Blue shocks already going for 25 to 35 a pop. Revised dual lands u can pick up for 50 to 80 its nuts


almost certainly.  They were developed just for that eventuality, since they stated that they consciously did not give them names that were block referential just for that reason.  That is not to say that block referential cards cannot be reprinted in another block (Adarkar Wastes), but they prefer to have them more general, so they planned ahead this time.
Wow awesome i hope so. If we buy a set of shocks now it might be a bad idea bc price will go down with a reprint.


As long as you get use out of them, a little drop in price should not be an issue.  This is a game, after all, not a retirement plan.  If you can you should buy them when you need them, because if you get too focused on the value, then it results in the legacy unreprintable mindset.
They were developed just for that eventuality, since they stated that they consciously did not give them names that were block referential just for that reason.  That is not to say that block referential cards cannot be reprinted in another block (Adarkar Wastes), but they prefer to have them more general, so they planned ahead this time.

They should have reprinted them long ago. Now that they've gone up in price so much, it's probably too late.

Frankly, I think that it would not necessarily hurt Magic in the area of play, if they chose the right block to do it in, if the Ravnica shocklands were reprinted as the duals of a core set or otherwise in current booster packs.

In fact, reprinting in boosters as opposed to precons is almost the only option if a card has some significant dollar value ($10-$20). When it goes above that, though, except for From the Vault, reprints are basically out. Ah, well. That's an ironic end to the Overextended saga.

Wait, no. Given the loud clamor for reprints of the original duals, reprinting the Ravnica shocklands despite their prices going up, by popular demand, for the good of the game... is perhaps not absolutely impossible.

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I would go as far as saying that it is likely, and Wizards would be foolish to not do it.  Reprinting Shocklands would be like printing money for Wizards.
2 things.

1. Shocklands are only 7 years old. Saying they should have been reprinted years ago is short-sighted, especially given the fact that original dual are nearing 20 years of age.

2. WotC has officially stated that the block after INS is going to be a return to ravnica, which is a great indicator of shockland reprints, and coincides nicely with a year's worth of waiting time for more shocklands to hit the market. Obviously, people who are upset with the current cost of entry into Modern are upset, but eternat format is eternal.

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I like the idea of using event decks for reprints of essential staples, but how about releasing sets/mini sets for the modern format in particular? Something along the lines of the Time Spiral block, except less about retroesque superpowered cards and more about everyday fodder. That could be used to slowly reintroduce select pre mirrodin cards in addition to staples without affecting the standard/extended environment.
I like the idea of using event decks for reprints of essential staples, but how about releasing sets/mini sets for the modern format in particular? Something along the lines of the Time Spiral block, except less about retroesque superpowered cards and more about everyday fodder. That could be used to slowly reintroduce select pre mirrodin cards in addition to staples without affecting the standard/extended environment.


If you want to play pre-8th cards then you will have to play legacy, vintage, EDH or casual.  If they wanted pre-mirrodin cards in the format then they would have included them in the format.  Wizards has never released a current set of reprints that made legal cards in one format, but still excluded them in Standard, and they are not going to start.
Am I the only one who sees a "From the Vault: 'Beatsticks'" coming? Tarmogoyf wants a special reprint badly.
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Shocklands are only 7 years old. Saying they should have been reprinted years ago is short-sighted, especially given the fact that original dual are nearing 20 years of age.

The reason I say that is that it's better to keep reprinting a card so that it doesn't go up in price to an excessive level in the first place than to reprint it after it's become valuable, causing its price to drop. That way, people don't get annoyed that they've spent money they can't recoup by selling the card.

WotC has officially stated that the block after INS is going to be a return to ravnica, which is a great indicator of shockland reprints, and coincides nicely with a year's worth of waiting time for more shocklands to hit the market. Obviously, people who are upset with the current cost of entry into Modern are upset, but eternat format is eternal.

And here I was thinking that multicolor was going to be taboo for ages because of how it was done wrong in Alara. Even though it was done right in Ravnica, one of the best-loved blocks of all time.

That definitely is the most appropriate occasion to do it. I hope Innistrad doesn't do too badly; I was just reading a news article about how families are cutting their back-to-school spending to the bone this year because of the economy.

If they wanted pre-mirrodin cards in the format then they would have included them in the format.

I definitely agree with that.

Wizards has never released a current set of reprints that made legal cards in one format, but still excluded them in Standard, and they are not going to start.

I do agree that they wouldn't start to do something like this: announce that the cards in Duel Decks product X are legal in Extended and/or Modern but not Standard.

However, I've noted that if instead of the Modern format, one had an Overextended type format which was heavily oriented towards allowing the older cards to see play, from Sixth Edition onwards, and there was felt a need to control the format (to balance the meta) by allowing in some pre-Sixth Edition cards instead of by lots of bannings (the strategy used with Modern), then one way to resolve the dilemma that...



  • Duel Decks and similar precons never affect the format legality of cards in them, and

  • Cards in current booster packs are always Standard-legal



would be to make a current set that's only sold in tournament packs instead of booster packs. So if Wizards ever had to "start", they do have an option which wouldn't confuse people too badly.

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Multicolor wasn't done wrong in ALA block - the mechanics were done wrong. People were simply getting tired of huge amounts of multicolor after LOR superblock followed by ALA block. If anything, I think R&D needs to stop doing the all-or-nothing approach to multicolor, and simply use multi when appropriate.

The reason I say that is that it's better to keep reprinting a card so that it doesn't go up in price to an excessive level in the first place than to reprint it after it's become valuable, causing its price to drop. That way, people don't get annoyed that they've spent money they can't recoup by selling the card.



Yeah, that's a pretty terrible marketing approach. In the world of collectible card games, there is definitely a risk to providing the market "too much of a good thing". Undersaturation causes griping about the secondary market, oversaturation leads to market collapses. This is true in most markets, not just CCGs.

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Am I the only one who sees a "From the Vault: 'Beatsticks'" coming? Tarmogoyf wants a special reprint badly.



From the Vaults "2 Drops" would be awesome, stuff like Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Gadock Teeg, Pridemage, Lord of Atlantis and stuff for the legacy players like Stoneforge and Goblin Piledriver


...stuff like Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Gadock Teeg, Pridemage...


FtV: Zoo?

2. WotC has officially stated that the block after INS is going to be a return to ravnica, which is a great indicator of shockland reprints, and coincides nicely with a year's worth of waiting time for more shocklands to hit the market. Obviously, people who are upset with the current cost of entry into Modern are upset, but eternat format is eternal.



Mind if I ask for the source? I know its been speculated that we are going back to Rav in 2012, but I can't recall anything official.
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Aw, crap. Alara block have just rotated out this season and there's already another multicolor block on the horizon? The last golden flood merited a hiatus of about 5 blocks minimum. Shockland reprints as regular rares could be the best that could happen to Modern, though, so it may be worthy.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited


Mind if I ask for the source? I know its been speculated that we are going back to Rav in 2012, but I can't recall anything official.



forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t...

I mis-read the post. It's definitely unofficial, but 2 reliable sources (for MTG, which actually means something) have confirmed the block after INS to be a return to ravnica.

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Modern itself will then eventually be killed by some other format as an alternative to whatever-the-hell ends up grossly overvauled due to Wizards's refusal to reprint some-odd card
No, because they will reprint. I think everybody wants to avoid the huge barrier to entry for the "eternal" formats.

In fact, reprinting in boosters as opposed to precons is almost the only option if a card has some significant dollar value ($10-$20). When it goes above that, though, except for From the Vault, reprints are basically out. Ah, well. That's an ironic end to the Overextended saga.
From the vault is a good way to get the price of some key cards down. But you could also use an event deck: Stick 1 Dark Confidant in a $30 event deck along with nothing else of much value (but still playable) and the price would come down, but not plummet.

Reprinting Shocklands would be like printing money for Wizards.
Yep. That's why I'm confident Modern will get all the reprints it needs. But it does need to be controlled to avoid crashing the "economy".

The reason I say that is that it's better to keep reprinting a card so that it doesn't go up in price to an excessive level in the first place than to reprint it after it's become valuable, causing its price to drop. That way, people don't get annoyed that they've spent money they can't recoup by selling the card.
Agreed. Admittedly, some of the most expensive cards in Modern will have a fairly serious price drop, but at least it will be nothing like if they started handing out Moxen.

From the vault is a good way to get the price of some key cards down. But you could also use an event deck: Stick 1 Dark Confidant in a $30 event deck along with nothing else of much value (but still playable) and the price would come down, but not plummet.


I don't disagree with your point, but using Event Decks is probably not the way, unless they makea major change to the way they support formats.  Event Decks are for standard, as indicated by the weird exception made for a complete SFM Event Deck in standard.  Other products could fill the role, but I expect Event Decks will remain focused on Standard.
Aw, crap. Alara block have just rotated out this season and there's already another multicolor block on the horizon? The last golden flood merited a hiatus of about 5 blocks minimum. Shockland reprints as regular rares could be the best that could happen to Modern, though, so it may be worthy.

Exactly; if it weren't for the Modern format and the need for shocklands, even a return to Ravnica this soon would be questionable.

I'm kind of hoping they'll put the allied-color shocklands in Magic: 2013, the enemy-color shocklands in the first set of Return to Ravnica, whatever it's called, and then have other exciting things to sell the set too, though.

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Aw, crap. Alara block have just rotated out this season and there's already another multicolor block on the horizon? The last golden flood merited a hiatus of about 5 blocks minimum. Shockland reprints as regular rares could be the best that could happen to Modern, though, so it may be worthy.

Exactly; if it weren't for the Modern format and the need for shocklands, even a return to Ravnica this soon would be questionable.

I'm kind of hoping they'll put the allied-color shocklands in Magic: 2013, the enemy-color shocklands in the first set of Return to Ravnica, whatever it's called, and then have other exciting things to sell the set too, though.


That is what I said, before formal announcement of the Modern format, and I got torn down.  I thought that a new multi-color block needed to have at least another year if absence in order to still feel special (as a multi-color block should), but you would not believe the vehemence that I received.  I also felt that Shocklands should still be reprinted, but in a core set.  That would open Rav 2.0 to print a new cycle of cool lands, hopefully based on Horizon Canopy or Nimbus Maze.

Currently, Hallowed fountain is trading for Badlands..... This is not good.

They have to reprint shocks as soon as possible if they don't want the format to die from the off. Goyf is also expensive, having £20 cards is fine(Bob, Clique, Mutavault), having £70 cards is not.
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all still speculative, though.  There is no Modern metagame yet, so everyone is guessing- they may be educated guesses, but they are still guesses.  I would give it till the middle of October before you start to see prces stabalize.  The shocklands, or another set of dual lands with basic land types, needs to be reprinted, though unless there is already something in the works, it will be a while before Wizards can react.

Here's one...ban shocklands in Vintage and Legacy.  That will cause many more to be freed up to enter the market, which should bring prices down.
Decks still need Shocklands in legacy, for example, Deadguy. The only alternative is to just wait. Theres obviously going to be a bubble because everyone wants the stuff for the PT, and because its a new format, and panic ensues. A reprint will happen, but that will not drive prices down, because standard will want them too.
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Goyf is hardly going down without a reprint, since it's used in every format(Bug fish in vintage), and is a staple. V. Clique is the same, as is DC, which means without reprints, they can only go up. Anyone who thinks DC, clique and goyf aren't goign to be staples in Modern are sorely missguided.
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Decks still need Shocklands in legacy, for example, Deadguy. The only alternative is to just wait. Theres obviously going to be a bubble because everyone wants the stuff for the PT, and because its a new format, and panic ensues. A reprint will happen, but that will not drive prices down, because standard will want them too.


This is faulty logic. An increase in supply will definitely drive prices down. The originals will probably not drop much, but the new prints will be much cheaper with the new Rarity system making them pretty readily available.

Plus, it's Ravnica. How could it be anything less than insanely popular? That's why ZEN fetchlands have stayed low. 

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Plus, it's Ravnica. How could it be anything less than insanely popular? That's why ZEN fetchlands have stayed low.



A Zendikar fetchland like Arid Mesa does nothing except fetch, when it fetches, it costs one life, and it can fetch one of two kinds of land.

Compare that to an Alara fetchland such as Bant Panorama; you can use it to generate colorless mana while you're waiting, there is no cost to fetch, and it can fetch one of three kinds of land - but the land goes on the battlefield tapped.

Then there's a Mirage fetchland like Flood Plain. It does nothing but fetch, and even enters the battlefield tapped itself. But there is no cost to fetch with it.

From Onslaught, Flooded Strand which does nothing except fetch, it costs one life, and can fetch one of two kinds of land. Ah. So the Zendikar fetches are functional reprints of the Onslaught fetches. Oh; the Zendikar ones are enemy color while the Onslaught ones are allied color.

EDIT: That must be it. I see that one Onslaught fetchland, after being about $20 forever, suddenly went up to $50 in the last two weeks. Presumably the Modern format has created the demand.

The demand for enemy-color fetchlands is much lower simply because there are fewer enemy-color decks.

Hold on - Onslaught isn't one of the sets whose cards are legal in Modern.

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Quad, your post makes zero sense.

The entire reason onslaught fetches cost so much is because they A) have a much smaller availability than ZEN fetches, and B) they tend to be slightly more useful for a lot of legacy archetypes, since legacy tends to run a lot of lists using allied color schemes. But the driving factor is availability - ZEN fetches still get cracked open on a daily basis.

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Uh... Quad, I think I can safely chalk your entire post up to "ignorance regarding competitive Magic."

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