a couple of questions about illusions and melira

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ok, first off...illusions. most of them, when targeted, have to be sacrificed. like phantasmal bear for example. what happens if a spell targets the bear, but is then countered. is the bear still sacrificed?

also, if melira, sylvok outcast has persist until end of turn and dies, does she come back in to play with a -1/-1 counter on her?

thanks for any and all help! 

 
ok, first off...illusions. most of them, when targeted, have to be sacrificed. like phantasmal bear for example. what happens if a spell targets the bear, but is then countered. is the bear still sacrificed?


When the spell, targetting the bear, is legally cast it triggers the bear's ability. This ability goes on the stack above the spell. Now you cast a Cancel and when it resolves, it counters the original spell. The triggered ability, however, is next on the stack. When it resolves [as the ability is independant from its source] the bear will be sacrificed. It is not dependant on the bear remaining a target. To stop the sacrifice would require something like Stifle


also, if melira, sylvok outcast has persist until end of turn and dies, does she come back in to play with a -1/-1 counter on her?

thanks for any and all help! 

 


No, she will prevent herself from having counters placed on her. She will return with no counter on her
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To be fair, the Melira, Sylvok Outcast + persist on herself scenario is still fairly ambigious. I asked the same question a while ago in this thread:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Basically, Zammm said that she would have the -1/-1 counter (due to her static ability not being just her, but a set of creatures, thus it doesn't self-replace how she enters), but the tone of the thread seems to be that the rules are pretty vague on Melira having persist herself. 
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word. that makes sense about the illusions, and as far as melira...im just gonna avoid giving her persist so as to prevent any midgame arguments :P

thanks again fellas! 
To be fair, the Melira, Sylvok Outcast + persist on herself scenario is still fairly ambigious. I asked the same question a while ago in this thread:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Basically, Zammm said that she would have the -1/-1 counter (due to her static ability not being just her, but a set of creatures, thus it doesn't self-replace how she enters), but the tone of the thread seems to be that the rules are pretty vague on Melira having persist herself. 



Odd, since they added a rule that says she doesn't get it.

112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.


112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.


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ok, first off...illusions. most of them, when targeted, have to be sacrificed. like phantasmal bear for example. what happens if a spell targets the bear, but is then countered. is the bear still sacrificed? 


Out of 71 Illusions (not counting things with Changeling), Gossamer Phantasm, Illusionary Servant, Phantasmal Abomination, Phantasmal Bear, Phantasmal Dragon, Phantasmal Image, and Phantom Beast (7 total) do that.  There's also Mirozel, which bounces instead of getting sacrificed.

Anyway, as stated, yes, the Phantasmal Bear is still sacrificed.  Its triggered ability, once on the stack, is independent of the spell or ability that caused it to trigger.
To be fair, the Melira, Sylvok Outcast + persist on herself scenario is still fairly ambigious. I asked the same question a while ago in this thread:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Basically, Zammm said that she would have the -1/-1 counter (due to her static ability not being just her, but a set of creatures, thus it doesn't self-replace how she enters), but the tone of the thread seems to be that the rules are pretty vague on Melira having persist herself. 



Odd, since they added a rule that says she doesn't get it.

112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.


112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.




That rule applies to Tatterkite but not to Melira, Sylvok OutcastMelira, Sylvok Outcast entering the battlefield because of a Persist triggered ability will enter with a -1/-1 counter on it.
ok, first off...illusions. most of them, when targeted, have to be sacrificed. like phantasmal bear for example. what happens if a spell targets the bear, but is then countered. is the bear still sacrificed? 


Out of 71 Illusions (not counting things with Changeling), Gossamer Phantasm, Illusionary Servant, Phantasmal Abomination, Phantasmal Bear, Phantasmal Dragon, Phantasmal Image, and Phantom Beast (7 total) do that.  There's also Mirozel, which bounces instead of getting sacrificed.

Anyway, as stated, yes, the Phantasmal Bear is still sacrificed.  Its triggered ability, once on the stack, is independent of the spell or ability that caused it to trigger.
To be fair, the Melira, Sylvok Outcast + persist on herself scenario is still fairly ambigious. I asked the same question a while ago in this thread:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Basically, Zammm said that she would have the -1/-1 counter (due to her static ability not being just her, but a set of creatures, thus it doesn't self-replace how she enters), but the tone of the thread seems to be that the rules are pretty vague on Melira having persist herself. 



Odd, since they added a rule that says she doesn't get it.

112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.


112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.




That rule applies to Tatterkite but not to Melira, Sylvok OutcastMelira, Sylvok Outcast entering the battlefield because of a Persist triggered ability will enter with a -1/-1 counter on it.


Hmm, then I am embarrassed. I shall have to fix my post to reflect this soon.
Level 1 Judge. Feel free to call me out on any errors. I'm only human, and am working to improve.

To be fair, the Melira, Sylvok Outcast + persist on herself scenario is still fairly ambigious. I asked the same question a while ago in this thread:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Basically, Zammm said that she would have the -1/-1 counter (due to her static ability not being just her, but a set of creatures, thus it doesn't self-replace how she enters), but the tone of the thread seems to be that the rules are pretty vague on Melira having persist herself. 



Odd, since they added a rule that says she doesn't get it.

112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.


112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.




That rule applies to Tatterkite but not to Melira, Sylvok OutcastMelira, Sylvok Outcast entering the battlefield because of a Persist triggered ability will enter with a -1/-1 counter on it.


How is Tatterkite any different from Melira in regards to that rule?
I'm seeing it as that a persisted Melira does not get the counter.
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The reason Melira doesn't get the counter is because of 614.12:

Show
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

Example: Orb of Dreams is an artifact that says “Permanents enter the battlefield tapped.” It won’t affect itself, so Orb of Dreams enters the battlefield untapped.


Melira doesn't self-replace her battlefield entrance as her ability doesn't affect just herself (it's pretty much identical to the Orb of Dreams example they give, hence why I included it). Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers only affect themselves, so if given persist they will come back without the counter.

Persisted Melira gets the counter; persisted Tatterkite/Keepers don't. 
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The reason Melira doesn't get the counter is because of 614.12:

Show
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

Example: Orb of Dreams is an artifact that says “Permanents enter the battlefield tapped.” It won’t affect itself, so Orb of Dreams enters the battlefield untapped.


Melira doesn't self-replace her battlefield entrance as her ability doesn't affect just herself (it's pretty much identical to the Orb of Dreams example they give, hence why I included it). Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers only affect themselves, so if given persist they will come back without the counter.

Persisted Melira gets the counter; persisted Tatterkite/Keepers don't. 


Ok, got it.
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Section 614 is only applicable to replacement effects. Melira's ability doesn't generate a replacememt effect, and so 614.12 does not apply to it.

The relevant rule is 112.6h, which Allanen cited upthread.
112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.

The ability of Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers apply before they enter the battledfield, because they prevent their source object and only their source object from having counters put on them.

Melira, Sylvok Outcasts ability affects a class of permanents including herself, so her ability does not function before she arrives on the battlefield.
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Section 614 is only applicable to replacement effects. Melira's ability doesn't generate a replacememt effect, and so 614.12 does not apply to it.

The relevant rule is 112.6h, which Allanen cited upthread.
112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.

The ability of Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers apply before they enter the battledfield, because they prevent their source object and only their source object from having counters put on them.

Melira, Sylvok Outcasts ability affects a class of permanents including herself, so her ability does not function before she arrives on the battlefield.




I'm not sure I get your drift... Does rule 112.6h apply to M.S.Outcast, or not?


  


    


     

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Section 614 is only applicable to replacement effects. Melira's ability doesn't generate a replacememt effect, and so 614.12 does not apply to it.

The relevant rule is 112.6h, which Allanen cited upthread.
112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.

The ability of Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers apply before they enter the battledfield, because they prevent their source object and only their source object from having counters put on them.

Melira, Sylvok Outcasts ability affects a class of permanents including herself, so her ability does not function before she arrives on the battlefield.




I'm not sure I get your drift... Does rule 112.6h apply to M.S.Outcast, or not?


No, because Melira doesn't say that you can't place counters on her, but on a group of objects. If Melira only prevented -1/-1 counters being placed on her it'd be fine; but because it's not just referring to her she doesn't get the benefit as she's entering the battlefield. It's pretty much the same as Orb of Dreams - if Orb of Dreams referred to only itself it would enter tapped, but because it refers to a group of objects it doesn't, even though it'd be in that group of objects.
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