My group wants to nerf my barbarian

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I am a level 10 rageblood barbarian, and my group wants to nerf me because I deal such good damage to single targets.  They say it breaks the balance in the game because I kill the big monsters so quickly.  I say just add more big monsters.  I am quite annoyed that they want to nerf me because doing single target damage is ALL I do, it's my role, and if they take that away, what good am I?  What do you guys think?  Do you have any suggestions for balancing the game?
You're a Striker, and thats what Strikers do!
What does the rest of the party play?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

If your character actually is ruining the enjoyment the rest of the players receive then I would say you owe it to them to take their comments into consideration.  If it’s just one or two people though then I would take what they have to say w/ a grain of salt.


It does sound like they don’t understand what a striker is supposed to do though.

Rule one isn’t “The DM is always right.” Rule one is: Everyone should be having fun at the table. Plans for 5e: Kill the d20, and replace it with a bell curve for task resolution.

Show them the definition of Striker. 

Or, play a Ranger and make them wish you were playing your Barbarian.  
First, take BvBPL's suggestions strongly.  If your build is annoying the other players in your party to the point that it is affecting their enjoyment of the game, then you should strongly consider modifying your build.

The flip side of that is, yes, the DM could modify the encounters to reduce the effectiveness of a striker in the encounters, such as introducing a larger number of slightly lower level targets (or large numbers of minions) where striker's single target damage is overkill.

The DM could select opponents with a controller who is able to target one of your sacrificed defenses, introduce lurkers or artilarly that force you to move beyond the range of the leader, placing you a significant risk, or introduce terrain that makes engaging certain enemies more difficult.

If your fellow party members are used to earlier versions of D&D where damage capability was similar for most classes, the difference between a defender or leader and a striker in 4th edition could cause some friction.
I think it really depends on information you haven't given us. If you've optimized significantly over the level of the rest of your party, asking the DM to ramp up the encounters isn't very reasonable. That exposes your party to an unnecessary risk of a TPK and/or adds unnecessary pressure on the DM.

If, as shadewpi has suggested, your player group just isn't used to Striker damage output and its comparison to the DPR of heavy defenders or controllers, then their expectations might be unreasonable.

In any case, I'd advise that you err toward the side of listening to your fellow players. You should still have plenty of fun playing the game even if you scale your character's level of optimization back somewhat. Listening to their concerns may be well worth it.
D&D rules were never meant to exist without the presence of a DM. RAW is a lie.
Barbarians are really not that great strikers, the only way they "kill things too fast" is if they're critting often or are epic.  So if your party thinks you're "doing too much damage" then the problem isn't with you, it's them.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Um, it was established in the thread in General (same name, much more posts) that this thread was started based on a miscommunication from another player.
I can't agree more with the posts above about party balance.

If you fully optimize for combat, and they are more "casual" gamers, taking stuff for "coolness/flavor", or just don't know what they are doing yes, its time to tone it down a bit.  The idea is that every single party member is equally important.  If you have all the moments of glory or if it becomes a 1 man show, then there is a problem with your barb.

Now on the flip side, if they are just jeleous that you are doing more damage (that you are supposed to be doing), then its them, and need to know the roles.

Not being there and seeing all the chars/builds its hard to say, but here is a general rule.

 Are you using additional books/sources that they are not? If the rest of the party is only using the player hand books, then you should only use the players hand books.  If others don't use dragon posts, you shouldn't.  If they don't use HofR then you shouldn't either.  The fact is the new stuff is almost always better (why else would we buy it).   A group optomizing using all the sources needs a significantly higher challenge rating then one just using base matteral.  If one person uses all the soruces and the rest are using only a few base books, then it does un-balance the group, and adding more monsters is not the solution. 

just be like my character is not broken your character just suck

For those who missed it, this thread has already been resolved.

But since that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone...

Unless you are REALLY pushing Charge optimization... you shouldn't be overbalanced. Barbarians are tough cookies, we do High damage, with high HP, and we do it well.  There really is no reason your character should be over-balancing. It's got a lot of heavy slap, but it's not particularlly special or broken. Even if you do some minor optimization... you shouldn't be astronomically in front of people considering that your a striker. And there are other classes that are much more over balanced.

just be like my character is not broken your character just suck




Yeah, that'll solve everything ...
IMAGE(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/facehoof.jpg)
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

just be like my character is not broken your character just suck




Yeah, that'll solve everything ...





QFT
Barbarians are really not that great strikers, the only way they "kill things too fast" is if they're critting often or are epic.  So if your party thinks you're "doing too much damage" then the problem isn't with you, it's them.



I personally feel Critical Hits are way too overpowered in 4e. I know they were going for criticals to be exciting and game changing, but when you deal 1/3rd of a SOLO mobs life in a single critical hit (which the Blackguard in my group has done, twice), it's too much. I don't fight them - they make my players happy, but I can't help but grind my teeth a bit when a single crit from 1 character basically takes an encounter I've designed to be a challenge and trivializes it.

To the OP: My personal take on it is 4e has a lot of balancing issues. For example, the Paragon Striker dailies that are like: "Keep attacking until you miss"... are the stupidest, most unbalanced pieces of garbage I've ever seen in any game. Look at Defender/Leader/Controllers Dailies. Nothing even comes close to that level of power. I've outright banned them from my game, even the errata'd form. *Almost* every power that's gold in the Optimization Boards is gold for a reason - it's too OP.

If your group is unhappy, and the DM agrees with him, I'd consent to most of the changes. Add up the total damage you do in a fight and divide it by the number of rounds it went. If you are in Heroic or Paragon and are averaging more than 20/40 damage a round, including misses, then you are too powerful.



Maybe i am doing it wrong, but my Light OP has never pushed me SO FAR beyond the rest of my party. It's made my character EXACTLY what he is supposed to be, a tough guy who can take the hits and deal it out with the best of them. Also my Dm's have never complained about either my Barb or my buddies Ranger (and some one already said it, but one answer to this problem is to switch to a ranger and make them wish you were still playing your barbarian) 

So have you considered that maybe your just making an encounter to easy? Yes a barb can stand up to most solo's at his level.... but that's exactly what he is suposed to be doing.... and if you really want to pour some sand into your barbarians underwear, go heavy on the minions. High minion encounters put a lot of what barbarians do best at unease. For example a charge (normally a huge staple of Barbarian optimization)  looses most of its bite. and all that big damage gets burnt on minions. 

What my argument boils down to here is that clipping the fangs of a Striker is more to unbalancing then it is having him normal in 4.0. The equal class option is pretty much a dream and 4.0 has gone for role balance. Yeah the barb has a HEFTY slap, but he's far from the most damaging strikers. And Damage is what he does. Controllers screw the enemies tactics up, Leaders boost your tactics, defenders are meat shields that say "what!?!?!?! you want to go where?!?!?!?! F*** YOU!" and Strikers have the sole task of beating the ever loving shiz out of threats and problems.



Barbarians are really not that great strikers, the only way they "kill things too fast" is if they're critting often or are epic.  So if your party thinks you're "doing too much damage" then the problem isn't with you, it's them.



I personally feel Critical Hits are way too overpowered in 4e. I know they were going for criticals to be exciting and game changing, but when you deal 1/3rd of a SOLO mobs life in a single critical hit (which the Blackguard in my group has done, twice), it's too much. I don't fight them - they make my players happy, but I can't help but grind my teeth a bit when a single crit from 1 character basically takes an encounter I've designed to be a challenge and trivializes it.

To the OP: My personal take on it is 4e has a lot of balancing issues. For example, the Paragon Striker dailies that are like: "Keep attacking until you miss"... are the stupidest, most unbalanced pieces of garbage I've ever seen in any game. Look at Defender/Leader/Controllers Dailies. Nothing even comes close to that level of power. I've outright banned them from my game, even the errata'd form. *Almost* every power that's gold in the Optimization Boards is gold for a reason - it's too OP.

If your group is unhappy, and the DM agrees with him, I'd consent to most of the changes. Add up the total damage you do in a fight and divide it by the number of rounds it went. If you are in Heroic or Paragon and are averaging more than 20/40 damage a round, including misses, then you are too powerful.






You should read some errata. The only daily that was "keep attacking until you miss" was Blade Cascade, and that was nerfed swiftly. Crits are only strong if you really build for it. Otherwise, they're a random occurence. Automatic maximum damage isn't as strong as crits used to be.

You should read some errata. The only daily that was "keep attacking until you miss" was Blade Cascade, and that was nerfed swiftly. Crits are only strong if you really build for it. Otherwise, they're a random occurence. Automatic maximum damage isn't as strong as crits used to be.



I did read the errata. Most of them allow five hits still - that's still too overpowered.

Bottom line: If it's gold on the optimization board (IE: Pick this or your an idiot), I look for reasons to ban it. Blade Cascade is a no brainer.

As for crits, my experience has been that they average out to be significantly higher damage than they were in previous editions, but that could just be the powers my players have chosen to select. The Blackguard has a daily in Heroic that gives her 4[W] and she has been lucky enough to crit twice.

Maybe i am doing it wrong, but my Light OP has never pushed me SO FAR beyond the rest of my party. It's made my character EXACTLY what he is supposed to be, a tough guy who can take the hits and deal it out with the best of them. Also my Dm's have never complained about either my Barb or my buddies Ranger (and some one already said it, but one answer to this problem is to switch to a ranger and make them wish you were still playing your barbarian) 

So have you considered that maybe your just making an encounter to easy? Yes a barb can stand up to most solo's at his level.... but that's exactly what he is suposed to be doing.... and if you really want to pour some sand into your barbarians underwear, go heavy on the minions. High minion encounters put a lot of what barbarians do best at unease. For example a charge (normally a huge staple of Barbarian optimization)  looses most of its bite. and all that big damage gets burnt on minions. 

What my argument boils down to here is that clipping the fangs of a Striker is more to unbalancing then it is having him normal in 4.0. The equal class option is pretty much a dream and 4.0 has gone for role balance. Yeah the barb has a HEFTY slap, but he's far from the most damaging strikers. And Damage is what he does. Controllers screw the enemies tactics up, Leaders boost your tactics, defenders are meat shields that say "what!?!?!?! you want to go where?!?!?!?! F*** YOU!" and Strikers have the sole task of beating the ever loving shiz out of threats and problems.



I get what you're saying, but 4e D&D was balanced around strikers averaging 20 damage a round in Heroic, 40 in Paragon and 60 in Epic. Add up the total damage you are doing, then divide it by the number of rounds. If you are CONSISTANTLY averaging more than that, odds are - whether you mean to or not - you are exceeding expectations and perhaps exploiting a flaw in the system, and should be open to balancing suggestions.

Do note that this factors in misses as well, so if you crit for 70, but miss twice, your average damage for 3 rounds is 23. It's within reason.

I did read the errata. Most of them allow five hits still - that's still too overpowered.

Bottom line: If it's gold on the optimization board (IE: Pick this or your an idiot), I look for reasons to ban it.



That's a terrible policy. It's usually gold because the other choices are pretty bad. The power isn't overpowered. It's a level 15 striker daily, on the one striker that really has nothing but pure damage output. There's nothing inherently unbalanced about it.

Gold means it's the best choice out of what's available to use, and usually applies to a vacuum. 


That's a terrible policy. It's usually gold because the other choices are pretty bad. The power isn't overpowered. It's a level 15 striker daily, on the one striker that really has nothing but pure damage output. There's nothing inherently unbalanced about it.

Gold means it's the best choice out of what's available to use, and usually applies to a vacuum. 



That's your opinion. Just because it's gold doesn't mean I do ban it. The only ones I've banned are the "hit until you miss" powers. It's a Striker Daily that has the capacity to take a Solo mob and bring it to half life and almost always 1 shots an elite. Show me a Defender/Leader/Controller power that - outside of some ridiculous cheese that is EXTREMELY conditional - that can do that without synergizing any combos.
It's a Striker power.

It's supposed to do more damage than a Defender, Leader, or Controller power.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'm not talking about damage. I'm talking about the ability to trivalize a fight. How about a defender/leader power that halfs all damage of a Solo mob for the entire encounter unconditionally? A controller power that, in a fight with 10 enemies non-minion enemies, takes 5 of them out of the game in a single go, without any need for synergy or maintence?

That's the equivilent of Blade Cascade in its errated form.


That's a terrible policy. It's usually gold because the other choices are pretty bad. The power isn't overpowered. It's a level 15 striker daily, on the one striker that really has nothing but pure damage output. There's nothing inherently unbalanced about it.

Gold means it's the best choice out of what's available to use, and usually applies to a vacuum. 



That's your opinion. Just because it's gold doesn't mean I do ban it. The only ones I've banned are the "hit until you miss" powers. It's a Striker Daily that has the capacity to take a Solo mob and bring it to half life and almost always 1 shots an elite. Show me a Defender/Leader/Controller power that - outside of some ridiculous cheese that is EXTREMELY conditional - that can do that without synergizing any combos.



You do know what a Striker is, right? If you build your encounters to match your PC's, this won't be an issue at all. The ranger is the one class in the game that is nothing but a pure striker. It's entirely built around doing front loaded nova damage.

"Almost always one shots an elite".... I don't think you've played enough at Paragon to really make a judgement on this. Also, even if it did one shot that elite, the ranger is basically done for the day. Again, he's a STRIKER. His job is to take down enemies as fast as possible to remove the threat from the field. If he wants to put all of his resources into one round to kill one of your elites, you can use that to your advantage.

Bottom line is... hitting 5 times in a row isn't as easy as you make it out to be, and it isn't really overpowered at all. You need to read some of the "From the lab" playtests to see how most of this stuff actually plays out before waving the banhammer.
No, I've never heard of a Striker. Tell me please.

Bottom line: Do you average more than 40 damage a round at 15 consistantly? Yes? Then you may need a nerf.

/end thread.
No, I've never heard of a Striker. Tell me please.

Bottom line: Do you average more than 40 damage a round at 15 consistantly? Yes? Then you may need a nerf.

/end thread.


Low. System. Mastery.

You've earned the label.
No, I've never heard of a Striker. Tell me please.

Bottom line: Do you average more than 40 damage a round at 15 consistantly? Yes? Then you may need a nerf.

/end thread.



40 damage a round at 15 is actually below expected striker levels. Do some actual gameplay at these levels with properly designed encounters.

Low. System. Mastery.

You've earned the label.



No, I've never heard of a Striker. Tell me please.

Bottom line: Do you average more than 40 damage a round at 15 consistantly? Yes? Then you may need a nerf.

/end thread.



Low. Reading. Comprehention.

So have you.

Low. System. Mastery.

You've earned the label.



No, I've never heard of a Striker. Tell me please.

Bottom line: Do you average more than 40 damage a round at 15 consistantly? Yes? Then you may need a nerf.

/end thread.



Low. Reading. Comprehention.

So have you.



Again, 40dpr at Paragon barely even qualifies as a striker. Unless you want every striker to be like the Vampire.


40 damage a round at 15 is actually below expected striker levels. Do some actual gameplay at these levels with properly designed encounters.


Well, (level+3)*2 is the baseline, so 40 is slightly above that at Lv. 15 (baseline 36). Definitely not optimized, though.

Low. Reading. Comprehention.

So have you.


Whatever, dude, you've clearly displayed a lack of understanding of the game to even suggest that a Striker doing that much damage might need a nerf.


40 damage a round at 15 is actually below expected striker levels. Do some actual gameplay at these levels with properly designed encounters.


Well, (level+3)*2 is the baseline, so 40 is slightly above that at Lv. 15 (baseline 36). Definitely not optimized, though.



Ahh, yeah. I was going by the 20/40/60 standard there. Wasn't sure what level it applied, though.

I'm actually waiting for the Stormwind Fallacy to pop up in this argument at some point.


I'm actually waiting for the Stormwind Fallacy to pop up in this argument at some point.



LOL,

I'm convinced the only threads that actually discuss the Stormwind Fallacy are the threads you bring it up in.

Seriously, everyone. Chillax. Mention one OP (?) Daily, and it's like I'm trying to dethrone Caesar. I don't punch the numbers every battle, and for the most part, I don't care if someone does 35 DPR or 70 DPR at 15, so long as no one else in my game is losing enjoyment over it. I can always rebalance things if I think players have optimized themselves out of the reasonable ranges, and up the levels of my enemies to provide a good challenge.

Besides, if any of you were in my game, I'd know better than to try and ban that power... it wouldn't be worth the whining. lol

2 questions. 

1.)  Stormwind Fallacy?

2.) Am I the only barbarian player who is now split on the "Storm of Blades, Hide Armor Expertise" nerfing? On one hand i now see how it is horribly over balanced, on the other doing the same thing rangers do as an encounter would be a delightful way to shut them up. (Like my parties warlock who got uppity because she did like 90 damage with a daily. My Dm pointed out that with an Action point and 2 encounter powers I did quite a bit more. (At level 9 or 10. And to be fair i crit'd)

To comment I do have to say I throw in a bit with UMCorian. The reaction from the other side of this has felt rather threatening and violent. I understand the fervor guys, but it'll be ok. 

To sum this up, the argument has been. "Multi-attack is broken" followed by "no it's not!"

So lets look at Nerf'd storm of blades.  3 attacks. If they all hit (which they should) there average damage should look like this.

 3(1(D12)) +3(Str(5)+wpn Focus(2)+enc(+2))=

High=63, Low=52, Average=57.5
Crit... is kinda hard to calculate on this because unlike say a 3[w] attack your making multiple roles. The free slap with Rampage IS quite awesome though. 

So Average 60 Damage on a swing. there is a nice encounter thats a fat 3w which sums up to about 27 average. And I take Brutal slam, a smaller 2w damage. so about 21. If I charge optimize I will be doing about (crunches numbers.) 28 damage on a charge average.

So assume a 8 round fight, and that I hit every swing with no crit, and 1 action point expendature.

and lets go for max damage per round so i am not going to be using the 2w encounter.  

1 Round I get the 57, the 3w is a free slap against someone swinging at me (and my paragon lets me use it 2x.  so lets add those all here to give us the following equation.

57+(27x2)+7(28)
all over 7. I come out with 44.14 blah blah blah

So my Barbarians average damage output (without Frost Cheese, that WILL REALLY throw this into a horrible array) is 45. Which is 1 point up from my previous 43.57....

So my barbarian is really coming about neutral to your numbers. A little high, but that happens.  Adding Frost to this REALLY will change things up, but i'm also losing about an average 4 damage on my charging. Since we are already in the realm of 300+ damage/encounter the extra 10 or 15 damage I gnab with it from storm of blades isn't going to really effect my average much. 

Will he do more? Sure, but he can also do less. Typically though he will be handing out 44 damage per round. if he is raging, he will obviously be doing more, but thats a rage, he's supposed to be doing more. 


So barbarian average level 13 damage is 44/round. Thats pretty damn close to your 20/40/60 line up. 

True, I get to slober a LARGE quantity of it over one enemy, but I'm a Melee striker, that's what i do. 
 
A big problem I have with that system, btw, is that its hard to measure out the length of the encounter. In an optimized group the encouter is going to be somewhat shorter, but in a casual group it's going to be longer. And that is going to significantly change those numbers I came up with. 

it could be that your party is really optimized and thus finishing faster putting out a value that isn't necceserily representative of how powerful they are because it's only taking a few swings into account. In a one round encounter my char could have a 60 average at level 13. and in a longer encounter my average is going to stretch out. Typically my numbers won't fall too low because the charge is at will (I also assumed I charged every round btw)  but still.... (also frost cheese will help keep my average up)

 

To the OP: My personal take on it is 4e has a lot of balancing issues. For example, the Paragon Striker dailies that are like: "Keep attacking until you miss"... are the stupidest, most unbalanced pieces of garbage I've ever seen in any game. Look at Defender/Leader/Controllers Dailies. Nothing even comes close to that level of power. I've outright banned them from my game, even the errata'd form. *Almost* every power that's gold in the Optimization Boards is gold for a reason - it's too OP.



I'm not talking about damage. I'm talking about the ability to trivalize a fight. How about a defender/leader power that halfs all damage of a Solo mob for the entire encounter unconditionally? A controller power that, in a fight with 10 enemies non-minion enemies, takes 5 of them out of the game in a single go, without any need for synergy or maintence?

That's the equivilent of Blade Cascade in its errated form.



Umm, the Wizard says hi.  Especially save debuffers and zone abusers. 

If you want to compare level 15 Dailies, Prismatic Beams targets each enemy in a close burst 5 and high attack rolls will nail any given target with two separate attacks, 2 separate cases of ongoing damage, and a daze as the cherry on top.  Statistically speaking, a Wizard even remotely optimized for accuracy that has even a little bit of set-up from the party leader will be hitting most of the monsters on the field.  Layer status effects with an action point (prone, for example) and everyone that got dazed is effectively stunned.  Direct comparisons are tough because the Wizard's trying to hold enemies back while the party focus fires on one unlucky guy, but that can certainly trivialize encounters. 

Slumber of the Winter Court is another prime level 15 Daily; it has a smaller area (only an area burst 2...unless you have a Staff of the War Mage, which can bump that up to a burst 3), but enemies that fail their first saving throw (against dazed + slow, which is pretty potent) fall unconscious.  For 1d4 hours (or if the target takes damage*).  Turns a fight against 5 guys into 5 fights against 1 guy, with each of those fights opening with a coup de grace from everyone in the party.  So it's tough to really call them 5 fights, eh?  More like 5 executions. 

*before you cry "broken!" keep in mind that unaffected enemies can easily ruin your fun by damaging their own allies to wake them up.

Point being, the absolute cream of the crop level 15 Daily for a striker is one that might grant 5 attacks to a class that already can regularly manage 2-3 attacks per turn?  Yeah...that just illustrates the fact that as a rule, striker dailies are usually not that impressive.  Blade Cascade is definitely a good power, but the fact that it's such a rarity just makes it the exception that proves the rule.  If you want encounter-changing dailies, you want to roll up a controller (or to a lesser extent, a leader). 

EDIT:  Consider thinking about it this way:  a Ranger is going to be using Twin Strike as an at-will attack, which grants 2 attacks as a standard action.  You can make the argument that Blade Cascade is about 2.5 times as powerful as Twin Strike since it might grant up to 5 attacks.  Sure, Twin Strike doesn't get your primary ability mod added to damage, but your string of Blade Cascade attacks ends as soon as you miss, and if you miss that first attack then your Daily just did nothing.  It's not Reliable, it has no miss damage, and it has no effect line.  Twin Strike is 2 attacks regardless of whether or not you hit or miss.  Over the long term Blade Cascade will probably average 3 or 4 attacks (let's assume 4, accounting for builds focused on accuracy and leader setup, although that might be generous given that enemies which you'll usually blow this on will tend to be higher level than you).  Basically, Blade Cascade is going to be somewhere between 2 and 3 times more potent than an at-will.  How is that unreasonable?

Wizards, OTOH, have Dailies that are far more potent than their at-wills.  Winged Horde vs Slumber of the Winter Court?  Please.  Heck, Wizards get zones that either flat out last the entire encounter or can be sustained, and this isn't just the top tier ones.  They can completely change the nature of the encounter, and can usually be taken advantage of by not only the Wizard, but his allies as well.  Even at level 1 a Wizard can neuter whole swaths of enemies by pushing them into Phantom Chasm's zone with Beguiling Strands, leaving multiple enemies prone (follow it up by moving 1 square away from them and they can't even charge). 

I'm not trying to claim that Wizards are superior to Rangers, because the classes do very different things.  Just trying to put the relative power of dailies into perspective.  Even among striker classes it's difficult to compare dailies; whereas Rangers get a one-shot power that's quite frankly pretty swingy in Blade Cascade, Barbarians get rages which grant sweet encounter-long benefits.  At level 15, a Barbarian can pick up Thunderfury Rage, which is a powerful 3[W] blow that knocks its target prone, and then you can hit an enemy that attacks you as an Immediate Reaction.  In a 5 round encounter, that's 5 extra attacks on top of the initial hit, with a bigger weapon than the Ranger gets and a chance to make even more attacks if you crit on any of those.

2 questions. 

1.)  Stormwind Fallacy?
 



The erroneous belief that optimizers can't RP and roleplayers shouldn't optimize.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
That is indeed a fallacy. It can get hard to balance, but theres no reason one can not do both.

 

To the OP: My personal take on it is 4e has a lot of balancing issues. For example, the Paragon Striker dailies that are like: "Keep attacking until you miss"... are the stupidest, most unbalanced pieces of garbage I've ever seen in any game. Look at Defender/Leader/Controllers Dailies. Nothing even comes close to that level of power. I've outright banned them from my game, even the errata'd form. *Almost* every power that's gold in the Optimization Boards is gold for a reason - it's too OP.



I'm not talking about damage. I'm talking about the ability to trivalize a fight. How about a defender/leader power that halfs all damage of a Solo mob for the entire encounter unconditionally? A controller power that, in a fight with 10 enemies non-minion enemies, takes 5 of them out of the game in a single go, without any need for synergy or maintence?

That's the equivilent of Blade Cascade in its errated form.



Umm, the Wizard says hi.  Especially save debuffers and zone abusers. 

If you want to compare level 15 Dailies, Prismatic Beams targets each enemy in a close burst 5 and high attack rolls will nail any given target with two separate attacks, 2 separate cases of ongoing damage, and a daze as the cherry on top.  Statistically speaking, a Wizard even remotely optimized for accuracy that has even a little bit of set-up from the party leader will be hitting most of the monsters on the field.  Layer status effects with an action point (prone, for example) and everyone that got dazed is effectively stunned.  Direct comparisons are tough because the Wizard's trying to hold enemies back while the party focus fires on one unlucky guy, but that can certainly trivialize encounters. 

Slumber of the Winter Court is another prime level 15 Daily; it has a smaller area (only an area burst 2...unless you have a Staff of the War Mage, which can bump that up to a burst 3), but enemies that fail their first saving throw (against dazed + slow, which is pretty potent) fall unconscious.  For 1d4 hours (or if the target takes damage*).  Turns a fight against 5 guys into 5 fights against 1 guy, with each of those fights opening with a coup de grace from everyone in the party.  So it's tough to really call them 5 fights, eh?  More like 5 executions. 

*before you cry "broken!" keep in mind that unaffected enemies can easily ruin your fun by damaging their own allies to wake them up.

Point being, the absolute cream of the crop level 15 Daily for a striker is one that might grant 5 attacks to a class that already can regularly manage 2-3 attacks per turn?  Yeah...that just illustrates the fact that as a rule, striker dailies are usually not that impressive.  Blade Cascade is definitely a good power, but the fact that it's such a rarity just makes it the exception that proves the rule.  If you want encounter-changing dailies, you want to roll up a controller (or to a lesser extent, a leader). 

EDIT:  Consider thinking about it this way:  a Ranger is going to be using Twin Strike as an at-will attack, which grants 2 attacks as a standard action.  You can make the argument that Blade Cascade is about 2.5 times as powerful as Twin Strike since it might grant up to 5 attacks.  Sure, Twin Strike doesn't get your primary ability mod added to damage, but your string of Blade Cascade attacks ends as soon as you miss, and if you miss that first attack then your Daily just did nothing.  It's not Reliable, it has no miss damage, and it has no effect line.  Twin Strike is 2 attacks regardless of whether or not you hit or miss.  Over the long term Blade Cascade will probably average 3 or 4 attacks (let's assume 4, accounting for builds focused on accuracy and leader setup, although that might be generous given that enemies which you'll usually blow this on will tend to be higher level than you).  Basically, Blade Cascade is going to be somewhere between 2 and 3 times more potent than an at-will.  How is that unreasonable?

Wizards, OTOH, have Dailies that are far more potent than their at-wills.  Winged Horde vs Slumber of the Winter Court?  Please.  Heck, Wizards get zones that either flat out last the entire encounter or can be sustained, and this isn't just the top tier ones.  They can completely change the nature of the encounter, and can usually be taken advantage of by not only the Wizard, but his allies as well.  Even at level 1 a Wizard can neuter whole swaths of enemies by pushing them into Phantom Chasm's zone with Beguiling Strands, leaving multiple enemies prone (follow it up by moving 1 square away from them and they can't even charge). 

I'm not trying to claim that Wizards are superior to Rangers, because the classes do very different things.  Just trying to put the relative power of dailies into perspective.  Even among striker classes it's difficult to compare dailies; whereas Rangers get a one-shot power that's quite frankly pretty swingy in Blade Cascade, Barbarians get rages which grant sweet encounter-long benefits.  At level 15, a Barbarian can pick up Thunderfury Rage, which is a powerful 3[W] blow that knocks its target prone, and then you can hit an enemy that attacks you as an Immediate Reaction.  In a 5 round encounter, that's 5 extra attacks on top of the initial hit, with a bigger weapon than the Ranger gets and a chance to make even more attacks if you crit on any of those.




Both are nice abilities for sure. But be realistic. You are talking about an ability that only damages for 2d6+mods and 2d6+mods and makes it so the enemies only get to attack and not move. Bottom line, at 15, that's not going to be one-shotting even regular mobs without any follow-up abilities.

You are really selling SotWC for more than it's worth IMHO. An area burst 2 that hits your allies as well? Without friendly fire, just how many enemies do you think you are going to get with that? And the enemies outside of that burst will, as you said, will quickly be waking up their companions.

Is it bad? Hell no. Is it good? Extremely.  Is it what I'd expect from a Daily? Yes. Is it going to destroy half of an encounter without needing synergy from anyone or anything else? No.

Blade Cascade, with only a minimum amount of optimization and not terrible luck, will frequently take half of a Solo Mobs life, and almost always, one-shot an elite. I just feel it does way too much.


You are really selling SotWC for more than it's worth IMHO. An area burst 2 that hits your allies as well? Without friendly fire, just how many enemies do you think you are going to get with that?

3-4, every time I've seen it used.  And they won't, because either the sleeping people have already died, or the wizard used Mass Charm to push them somewhere else.
Is it bad? Hell no. Is it good? Extremely.  Is it what I'd expect from a Daily? Yes. Is it going to destroy half of an encounter without needing synergy from anyone or anything else? No.

Er, nope.  That's exactly what it does.

Also: Visions of Avarice.  Wall of Fire.  Consecrated Ground.  Moment of Glory.  Any of the Warlord "everybody make an MBA powers out-do Blade Cascade...", and those aren't the encounter breaking powers controllers have.

Your non-striker players are either really nice to you, or you're unable to recognize when control just ended the battle, or you're stuck in the old old days of "fighters can't have cool toys".

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Bit of a followup... I have the following paragon level PCs in LFR


  • A cheesy 120 effective DPR (~first 3 rounds, then drops off to "only" 80) level 19 superstriker.

  • A 50 DPR level 14 striker, with no real spike capability

  • A 0 DPR, 14 strength level 11 Warlord.


Which do you think is the most powerful on that list?  (for the level of the PC)

It's the Warlord.  By far.  The Warlord ends fights in the 1st round, before they've even started.

The 120-DPR superstriker just ends up unconscious, unless someone is kind to me and plays a warlord or other good leader.  Of the three PCs I mentioned, the 1st is actually the weakest.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

[
Also: Visions of Avarice.  Wall of Fire.  Consecrated Ground.  Moment of Glory.  Any of the Warlord "everybody make an MBA powers out-do Blade Cascade...", and those aren't the encounter breaking powers controllers have.



To be fair consecrated ground isn't game breaking anymore post errata.  Its still pretty good, but you can't move it around with the cleric anymore.

I do agree that leaders and contollers tend to break the game more than high dpr strikers.