08/12/2011 LD: "Welcome to the Modern World"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Voted "no opinion". Great idea, needed more lead time.
bye extended, hello modern
WT.... I just bought my deck for the PT. This is just not right. Not right at all. 
Two things: I think the change should have been announced farther in advance (although I certainly didn't do any Extended testing for this tourney, I feel somewhat sorry for those who did), and I think that the format needs something like Force of Will as a universal check on any hyper-agressive aggro or combo decks.  Rather than trying to ban every combo piece in existence, just reprint FoW -- the inherent card-disadvantage keeps it fair (though admittedly quite powerful).
For this to be announced ONLY 3 weeks ahead of time and after I bought my deck, I will not attend this event or any other WotC sponsored events. I will only play SCG events from now on. 
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Bad. Wrong. I didn't think they could make a ban list worse than the original, but they did it. Hope everyone enjoys playing Zoo mirrors all day.
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This is fantastic I hope they also change GP San Diego to Modern as well.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Bad. Wrong. I didn't think they could make a ban list worse than the original, but they did it. Hope everyone enjoys playing Zoo mirrors all day.



Seriously.  I lost like 90% of my interest in the format.  I'll just stick to legacy, thanks.
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I was hugely excited for Modern becoming a real format.

Now? I'm looking up prices for Legacy cards.
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I cant afford legacy and was hoping to be able to play my Jaces in Modern... Dreamcrush
Missing the good ole pre banning days...

Love Modern GREATLY Dislike Moderns ban list at all!!! Wizards is on a banning spree! lets ban everything WWWEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, wasn't the reason for banning Umezawa's Jitte specifically the interaction with Stoneforge Mystic? Mystic is banned now, so...why is Jitte still banned?
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I cant afford legacy and was hoping to be able to play my Jaces in Modern... Dreamcrush
Missing the good ole pre banning days...


Yes, the days before they banned cards for breaking formats. Which is when? Unlimited?
Unban Stoneforge and I will play the format every day of my life. If not, I'll play it once a week. I am not a SFM fanboy, but my favorite deck essentially needs her to work well.
I still am excited about modern, but I think many of the cards on the list didn't have to be banned. I like a previous poster felt Jace TMS was fine for modern, especially in the absence of Stone Forge. Same goes for Recall.

Still I think modern will be a nice format, but darn the banned list grew. I think many of these were preemptive and too "paranoid."

<a href="http://www.wizards.com/Magic/PlaneswalkerPoints/1206663433"><img src="http://pwp.wizards.com/1206663433/Scorecards/Landscape.png" border="0" /></a>

BANNED: Unfun
LEGALIZED: Fun

This announcement is awesome and worth the wait. The one thing that would've stopped people from getting into Modern is if an insufficient ban list had made it a combo race or Cawblade Yawnfest Format #23.

A+
Was banning Aether Vial ever considered? Card seems way strong.
looks fantastic
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
I cant afford legacy and was hoping to be able to play my Jaces in Modern... Dreamcrush
Missing the good ole pre banning days...


Yes, the days before they banned cards for breaking formats. Which is when? Unlimited?


Jace is not even slightly broekn in Modern.

Was banning Aether Vial ever considered? Card seems way strong.


Don't be stupid; it's an aggro card and since 100% aggro decks is Wizards' new definition of a healthy format, it's totally fair!
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While I think annouching the change a little earlier would have helped, since 3 weeks is a little close. Personally I don't think it's THAT bad since 3 weeks it still enought time to get in practice/figure out decks, but yea, a little sooner would have been nice. Still, something tells me the few people that had already started getting ready won't be to happy to hear their practice or the deck they had built are now useless.

Anyway, as you said, I little said to see cards axed, but it's always easier to make the cuts before things get up and running then after. And again, as you said you can play with the list over time so we are likely to see some of those cards make their way back.
First, thank you for putting Extended out of its misery. On the whole I think Modern is an exciting new format heading into the future (I may have preferred Overextended but the idea behind both is the same).

Two major issues with this announcement though:

1) Three weeks before the PT? Really? Don't blame CawBlade for this, at the June bannings everyone could have told you it would still break Extended. Instead you now have to emergency toss an entire format because you once again were too hesitant in acknowledging JtMS and Stoneforge's power. I feel terrible for all those who are going to the PT and now have their work, preparation, and card purchases utterly flushed down the drain.

2) I get some of the banned list, but some of your explanations just seem haphazard. Big Jace should be banned, but because HE IS OVERPOWERED TO AN INEXCUSABLE EXTENT, not because "oh, we need to throw in a blue card for balance." With Dread Return off you could probably give back Grave Troll or something, or just admit Wizards as a company hates the existence of dredge. Jitte staying on also seems really odd. Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom seem like odd choices, especcially as Bloodbraid reamins, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Mental Misstep is the oddest inclusion to me; the logic applied here is the exact same as Legacy and since that card's printing the diverstiy of successful Legacy decks has declined but I'll choose to take it's spot on thi list as an acknowledgement you realize the monster unleashed there.

All in all, happy for the new format, but this announcement comes off as rushed and unfinished, with hundreds of players getting to Beta test for you in just three weeks instead of playing what you told them they could.
I am very happy and excited to see the Modern format becoming a paper format in a big way.

However, I agree with the concern that this was announced too close to the actual events, which is bad for the players.

As for the banned list: except for banning Mental Misstep, which I think is a mistake - particularly if the format needs a card like Force of Will, as someone said above, which I think is not unreasonable (although I'm not sure it has to be the case either; Modern doesn't have cards like the P9 floating around in its card pool) - it doesn't seem to be too unreasonable. Umezawa's Jitte was banworthy before Stoneforge Mystic was printed.

The other thing, of course, is that at the time of the Magic Online Community Cup, most people regarded the banned list as conservative - in the opposite sense to that which was used in the article. That is, they felt it erred on the side of caution by banning a lot of cards, to ensure that nothing could get out of hand.

However, I do applaud banning Bitterblossom and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle in the format. These cards were part of decks that were, in their day, overbearing.

I'm not an expert on Magic, so I can't criticize the details of the list too strongly. While I do suspect that banning Mental Misstep is a mistake, I could be wrong. As to other cards, I can only say that I'm unsure if Hypergenesis, Glimpse of Nature, Dread Return, and Ancestral Vision actually need to be banned. However, since those four cards span three colors, I have to admit that there's probably not much danger that those bannings will unbalance the format to favor any one color.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

I don't know what everyone is complaining about.  That ban list is BEAUTIFUL.  It's better to be overcautious at first and unban later than it is to have a totally busted format and ban cards AFTER everyone buys them up.

Most surprising card on there?  Mental Misstep!  That card single-handedly changed Legacy way too much.  Talk about a card that surpresses a lot of decks/strategies.  It's depressing.  I'm so very glad to see it on the initial banlist.  Thanks, Tom!

All the combo pieces deserve their spot on the list as well.  I think the rule of thumb about not allowing combos that win consistently before turn 4 is pretty good.  Keep that up.  (And please don't even consider reprinting Force of Will to fix this issue.  Make a balanced format.  Not a format that REQUIRES one card/color to keep everything in check.)

Jace and Stoneforge make sense for exactly the reasons you stated, Tom.  Bitterblossom and Ancestral Visions should go a long way towards keeping Faeries in check, but I suspect that BB might be a good candidate for unbanning later.  I'm happy it's on the list for now though.

As a Legacy player, I'm VERY glad this Modern thing is happening.  And I feel like R&D are doing great with it so far.  The only thing I wish you'd do is make announcements a little earlier.  I know it takes time to organize everything behind the scenes, so if this is the earliest you could get the info out there, that's fine.  But I know Aaron Forsythe tweeted about Modern a while back, so I suspect you could have made it official a little earlier.

And on that note, announce the Ravnica land reprints, ASAP, please.  They are already approaching Revised dual prices in some cases.
Okay, well I'll give them their dues for accepting that 'neo extended' was just garbage. I think their timing sucks (again) - just like it did for the shortening of extended. I may not be affected this time around but c'mon, guys - people invest in this game on the basis of stated formats. Single card bannings aside, you should always have a chance to play your purchased cards in the upcoming formats of the next, say, 3-6 months.

The banning list... well.. its a little liberal. I'm going to hope its a starting point, not a finished product. And I'm going to hope that Jace, the Mind Sculptor stays on it forever in indelable ink.

It seems to me that jitte might have stayed in the card pool, and same true of glimpse but by including mental misstep. Ancestral Vision surprised me as well.

I think I get jace, hypergenesis, bitterblossom, skullclamp, SDT, dark depths, valakut, sword of the meek and the artifact lands. The others I could live with in the format as a starting point.

Oh, and let's not pretend that the modern format experiment wasn't a foregone conclusion. I mean, really, it was a subtle as a turn 2 tarmogoyf. The only difference is that for once, this is a new format announcement that I might actually get behind. No, really.

PS. Get the modern format in gatherer already. What are you waiting for?

@pro_death: Do you by any chance play Zoo in Legacy? Because I don't see how anyone who has ever even thought about playing a non-aggro deck could call this ban anything other than complete garbage, let alone "beautiful".
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As a casual MTGO player, I must say that the ban list is beautiful.  It looks like it was specifically crafted to knock as many unfun cards out of the format as possible.  I will definitely be playing Modern.

Two thumbs up, Wizards!
Wizards just doesn't get it do they. I was so excited for modern and imagine my suprise when I saw the ptq change on dailymtg, but then I find a banlist I wouldn't even wipe my ass with. Its become painfully obvious that wizards doesnt give two **** about the player base that actually was excited for modern. Guess what wizards you ruined another format. What a joke, what a complete joke.
HELL YES

Never thought this would happen. The development team taking an honest look at the potential offenders of the card pool and making objective bans without bias for colors, archetypes or card prices and discussing it openly with the community without trying to go on sophist claims.

THIS is how development must work, and Standard should be treated like it all the time.

Don't worry by the two or three posters making 100 complaining posts. The masses will appreciate being listened and will attend to tournaments in droves using their tons of now playable cards now that the big offenders of the room are out.

Congratulations for the good job. Keep it going.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Tell me, javert (and anyone else who's saying they like the ban list): have you actually played Modern?
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...And to think I was excited about getting into a less expensive format than legacy, yet still one that maintained the power level and dynamic nature.  Now...  Well, guess we have a mediocre extended format.  Again.  I can understand certain things, people complaining about jace, stoneforge, etc., but banning bitterblossom?  That doesn't just stop fae. It stops BW tokens, fun Jund brews, and other crazy things that were tons of fun.  And faeries is nowhere near the menace that it used to be (granted, I didn't think it was at the time everyone else did either).  And valakut?  Really?  The deck isn't dominant in extended or standard, and it hasn't been for a long time.  It can't kill before turn 4 very easily, so how is it any different than splinter twin/kiki-jiki + pestermite?  Might as well ban that too.  Again, I understand certain parts of this, but...  I think it is just too over the top, and it has ruined my excitement about the format.  I guess I am glad I didn't invest in any of the expensive cards before this was announced.  Plus, I know 2 people who are quitting purely because any excitement they had for modern was nerfed.  I am still interested, but I think this list is a huge mistake.  Valakut?  Mental Misstep?  Oh well.  Ruin extended first on the promise of another format, then crush the hope that format brought...  seems like quite the cycle.
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This ban list better undergo changes post pro-tour. I can see flaws, but I'm not going to go on an all-out rant until I see results.

This banlist seems like an attempt to "Ban important components of everything that was historically good and see what the pros come up with."

Like many mentioned, Aether Vial needs to be on that list, especially when Mental Misstep is on it. 

I'll be expecting Zoo and Jund decks for the pro-tour.


Insert Must-Rant Here: REPRINT SHOCKLANDS ASAP. ITS ALREADY RISEN AND I DON'T WANT A CASE OF THE ENTRY BARRIERS LIKE FOR LEGACY. THE SHOCKLANDS AREN'T ON THE RESERVED LIST, SO THERE'S NO EXCUSE NOW.

Had to get it out of my system. The sole factor I'm not interested in Modern is simply to nonprintsupply of shocklands. Change that, and that format earns another player. (Edit: It sounds selfish, but then again, I do believe that the statement would apply many other people as well.)
Tell me, javert (and anyone else who's saying they like the ban list): have you actually played Modern?

No, because it isn't supported officially on MTGO yet.  However, I did love and extensively play the old Extended format, which Modern closely resembles.
If wizards had even considered having a real thought or discussion instead of reading a bunch of hatemail from whiners tired of losing or not wanting to buy cards so demanding they be banned and maybe looked at the overextended(basically modern tested for wizards) and seen that NOT A SINGLE DECK OR SPECIFIC CARD THAT WASN"T ON THE OVEREXTENDED BANLIST WAS EITHER DOMINANT OR OPPRESSIVE. pretty much half of wizards new banlist is complete trash. Its just embarrasssing, the people who play casually or are just butthurt losers who whine about cards like jace and stoneforge (or cards like ancestral vision or bitterblossom, are you **** me?) well guess how many events those players will play in, good job wizards you should be ashamed.
This looks like a job for Dragonstorm!
This is awesome ^_^

(Oh, and a heavy banlist is completely correct.  Better to unban than ban.)
Magic Judge Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Rules Theory and Templating: "They may be crazy, but they're good." --Matt Tabak, Rules Manager*
Scrapping the four-block extended format is a great decision, that was just not interesting.  Modern is a big improvement over "double standard".  However, it's still a big step down from Overextended.  It's like you saw that people are really interested in Legacy, realized "hey, people really like playing all their cards but we're kinda screwed by the reserve list," but somehow you missed the obvious connection of including every set that's not covered by the reserve list.

The banned list... well, it looks ridiculously big.  Part of the fun of eternal formats is being able to do insane things (again, it seems like you missed WHY Legacy is popular).  For people who don't like that kind of format, we already have Standard and Limited, which just so happen to be the two most common ways to play the game.  Those people aren't missing out.  The "big" format that's going to be supported for serious competitive play should deliver that higher power level which is its primary reason for existing.  I can understand why you'd want to be conservative when you're switching to a mostly unexplored format so soon before the PT, but I hope you'll remove a bunch of cards after the PT and let the format shake itself out.

Just as an example, your excuse for banning Jitte in the original article was that it was degenerate with Stoneforge Mystic.  Now Mystic is banned, and Jitte wasn't even remotely a problem in the last 7-block extended season, so there's zero reason for it to be banned.  Honestly the only card I think should have started out on the banned list is Skullclamp, and possibly Jace/Mystic because the scars from those are so fresh.  Everything else could be given a chance to prove it's problematic before getting the axe.
I feel like the people who worked on the banlist were basically terrible magic players and idiots.  "in legacy we don't like turn 2 combo decks... i guess for modern we'll add a turn"  how completely idiotic
A fromat change for a major even with three weeks notice? W.T.F.

What about everyone who's put time into testing, building decks and making travel arrangements. Maybe they don't have time to retest and rebuild. This move was completely unncessary and unprofessional. Wait till next year and announce Pro Tours supporting the new format, Modern, then.

Lately so many decision Wizards is making seem like this to me. I think they're too quick to bring out the ban-hammer. I don't belive Jace, the mind Sculptor needed a ban. I think Stoneforge Mystic was powerful, but fair. Give players more time to innovate. Hell, force them to by leaving powerful decks alone. Don't just ban cards. Let players deal with the dominant problem decks. In time, solutions will be found. Afterall, didn't everyone say graveyard based decks, like Dredge, couldn't win Vitage events? Then, boom, Dredge wins 2011 Worlds. Lissening to the loudest, most vocal groups (especially online) isn't the best course of action for maintaining a health Magic environment.
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HELL YES

Never thought this would happen. The development team taking an honest look at the potential offenders of the card pool and making objective bans without bias for colors, archetypes or card prices and discussing it openly with the community without trying to go on sophist claims.

THIS is how development must work, and Standard should be treated like it all the time.

Don't worry by the two or three posters making 100 complaining posts. The masses will appreciate being listened and will attend to tournaments in droves using their tons of now playable cards now that the big offenders of the room are out.



See, I actually am in favor of a more proactive banhammer in general. I think it would be better for the format overall if they were quicker to acknowledge when something is hurting the format. But the fact of the matter is they don't do that. They are very slow to change banned lists most of the time, which both makes the length of this one stand out and makes me skeptical several of the banned cards that are actually fine will be unbanned anytime soon.

Again, love the idea of the format, dismayed by how it's being rolled out.

Oh, and I agree with the above that now there is no excuse to not reprint the shocklands immeadiately. Otherwise costs will escalate so the Modern-Legacy price gap is close enough as to eliminate one of the main draws of this new format.

Just as an example, your excuse for banning Jitte in the original article was that it was degenerate with Stoneforge Mystic.  Now Mystic is banned, and Jitte wasn't even remotely a problem in the last 7-block extended season, so there's zero reason for it to be banned.  Honestly the only card I think should have started out on the banned list is Skullclamp, and possibly Jace/Mystic because the scars from those are so fresh.  Everything else could be given a chance to prove it's problematic before getting the axe.


I think it is safe to say a lot of the card currently banned atm would have ended up on a more developed ban list anyway, so best to take out things that can break the format earlier then later. Also, loads of people would be complaining about how X card was banned and that it really didn't need to be. No matter what they do people will be unhappy.

Really, people need to realize, that just bacause they are banned now doesn't mean it will stay that way. It is more then likely that Bitterblossom or Jitte will come back sooner rather then later. A good number of the other cards at the very least have a chance of being brought back in to see how bad they may or may not really be.

Modern is a brand new format and letting things start off as being broken isn't good, so it is better to be safe then sorry. As time passes and Wizards learns more about the format of course they will act accordingly and make changes they see fit.
Two other things before I go to bed:

~I understand the mindset behind not wanting turn two or three kills in Modern, but that's not the best criteria for determining a deck's effectiveness. Legacy Belcher is a turn one kill deck which is fine because it is horribly inconsistent. Caw-Blade in Standard could easily kill you on turn 6+ but was one of the most dominating decks any format has ever seen. When you die and when you lose are not the same thing.

~Having thought about it a bit more, Zoo looks even better than I thought. Not only can it be ported almost directly from Legacy, but it no longer has Misstep or broken combo to deal with AND everyone's life totals start a bit lower now (thanks to shocklands). I am in awe, given that an explicit mentality behind the bans was to be wary of porting Legacy decks into a lower-powered format, that Zoo was made even better.
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