Brutal X Property Question

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Does the Brutal Property apply to all the dice rolled using the weapon, or just whatever dice the weapon rolls for a melee basic attack. For example a barbarian using an execution axe with the ecounter power avalanche strike and he rolls 1, 2, and 1. Does he reroll all the dice?
The Brutal property adds only to [W].  If you're, say, a Barbarian using Howling Strike with an Execution Axe (+2/d12 Brutal 2), you will roll 1d12+1d6.  Brutal only applies to the d12, not the d6.  Only [W].  Never anything else.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
So on a 3[W] power it would be 3d12, re-rolling each die until it's 3 or higher.  Using a 3[W] power with brutal 2, high crit (heroic), +2 enchantment, and scoring a crit would be: 38(3d12 maxed +2) +1d12 (high crit)(re-roll until 3 or higher) + 2d6
Yes. Disgusting isn't it?

Not really. What bugs me about brutal is that it is just a fixed bonus masked into a rolled dice.

For instance:

1d10 brutal 2 = 1d8+2

No matter how you think about it, it is the same thing. Mathematically it gives the same damage and distribution, and practically it saves times to avoid the rerolls.
It seems way more fun, though.  My players love pointing out 1s and 2s to each other before gleefully rerolling them.  The player of the barbarian with the execution axe practically does a little dance if he rerolls and 1 and it comes up a 12.
NB: a Gouge (2d6B1 axe/spear) is better than an Execution Axe.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
It seems way more fun, though.  My players love pointing out 1s and 2s to each other before gleefully rerolling them.  The player of the barbarian with the execution axe practically does a little dance if he rerolls and 1 and it comes up a 12.

Some people enjoy rolling dice more than others. Nothing wrong with that. In my game, you can change brutal into a dice+fixed bonus per W die and I think it is ok to speed up play - I don't force anyone to do it though.
Those who consider the Brutal property "fun" have obviously never encountered a player who insists on rolling everything one... die... at... a... time.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

I consider it fun on players who aren't that player.

I've encounter players who treat it as the next die size down +2 as well, which works nicely in play, albeit it's not quite so satisfying, and there's a big psychological point in favour of rerolling - the stats are the same, but on the rare occasions your 1 goes up to an 8, it's very satisfying.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I consider it fun on players who aren't that player.

I've encounter players who treat it as the next die size down +2 as well, which works nicely in play, albeit it's not quite so satisfying, and there's a big psychological point in favour of rerolling - the stats are the same, but on the rare occasions your 1 goes up to an 8, it's very satisfying.

I am guessing our method of "brutal = dice +bonus" is influenced by the fact that my and my friends are all from a couple of Universities and all from technical fields - any kind of math comes naturally and few of us see any "excitement" in rolling the dice repeatedly.
Rolling once is fun for us, but rolling your damage for 2 minutes per attack is aggravating.

We also tend to roll the hit and damage roll at the same time - for instance d20 to hit and d8 for damage on the same toss.
I always roll attack and damage together, but unless I'm pre-rolling between turns, I wait to calculate until I know if I've hit.

If I were to play a brutal weapon (have yet to do so) that wasn't a 2d6 one (d4s don't roll well, apart from the dodecahedral ones, but those are way too easy to confuse with d12s), I would probably go with the quick method.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Yes. Disgusting isn't it?

Not really. What bugs me about brutal is that it is just a fixed bonus masked into a rolled dice.

For instance:

1d10 brutal 2 = 1d8+2

No matter how you think about it, it is the same thing. Mathematically it gives the same damage and distribution, and practically it saves times to avoid the rerolls.



Right, but unfortunately we don't typically get d5s to use in our d6 B1 weapons (like the Gouge).

Brutal 2 is easy to math away with different damage dice.  Brutal 1 isn't as it results in odd numbers.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes. Disgusting isn't it?

Not really. What bugs me about brutal is that it is just a fixed bonus masked into a rolled dice.

For instance:

1d10 brutal 2 = 1d8+2

No matter how you think about it, it is the same thing. Mathematically it gives the same damage and distribution, and practically it saves times to avoid the rerolls.



Right, but unfortunately we don't typically get d5s to use in our d6 B1 weapons (like the Gouge).

Brutal 2 is easy to math away with different damage dice.  Brutal 1 isn't as it results in odd numbers.

A d5 is a d10/2. For me, using "halving the dice" method is as quick as it would be to actually be rolling such a die.

I regularly use d8 dice to roll my d4 rolls. A d10 to roll d5 rolls would be the same thing.

Basically it is divide by 2 and round up.
I picked up a couple 10-sided d5s at Gen Con.

I have used the d8/2 for d4s.  I hate the standard d4.  I now use crystal caste d4s.

 Any Edition

Yes. Disgusting isn't it?

Not really. What bugs me about brutal is that it is just a fixed bonus masked into a rolled dice.

For instance:

1d10 brutal 2 = 1d8+2

No matter how you think about it, it is the same thing. Mathematically it gives the same damage and distribution, and practically it saves times to avoid the rerolls.




No I am afraid what you have said is wrong - especially your point about the damage and distribution.

The damage is enhanced, and the distribution is reduced.

I certainly can see what you are trying to say - but what you claim is that the enhancement is "just a fixed bonus", but it is not. Your argument can be shown to be false quite easily - with an example of a weapon that does damage of "1d6 brutal 2".

1 -> 3to6, 2-> 3to6, 3->3, 4->4, 5->5, 6->6.

Clearly, the damage enhancement is conditional and NOT fixed in any way.

The mistake you have made is that you've seen that  "1-6 brutal 2" can be re-expressed as "3-6".
You've then noticed that you have to add 2 to the bottom range to get to 3, and then you've subtraced that
same number from 6 to get to a 4 - and then you've re-expressed "3-6" as "1-4 +2".

But in re-expressing this equation you've totally forgotten that you had to change the range from 1-6 to 1-4, and
this transformation itself is what invalidates the point you are trying to make.

If you really want to calculate the ACTUAL enhancement properly - and mathematically correctly you should do it like this :

Damage= "ndx brutal b"  (e.g. 1d8 brutal 2)

On a 1 the damage becomes 3-8 (enhanced by : "(3+8)/2 - 1" )
On a 2 the damage becomes 3-8 (enhanced by : "(3+8)/2 - 2" )
On 3 to 8 the damage stays the same.

This then becomes :

n.(b/x) SUM [k=1 to b]  ((b+1+x)/2 - k).

which is

n.(b/x).( (b/2)(b+x+1) - (b+1)(b/2) )

which then simplifies to

(n/2)(b^2)

So for example, the damage enhancement for 3d12 brutal 3  (compared to just plain 3d12)
can be calculated as  (3/2)(3^2) = 13.5

Or the damage enhancement owing to brutal - for "1d6 brutal 1" is  merely 0.5
think about it - on a roll of 1 - you instead get 2 to 6 damage (average 4 which is an extra 3 dmg).
That happens only 1 out of every 6 rolls - so the probability is 1/6 - so the dmg bonus is 3/6 = 0.5

so the final conclusion is that "ndx Brutal b" can be re-expressed as "ndx Brutal (n/2)(b^2)"

It's interesting to note that the size of the dice has no relation to the amount of EXTRA damage
the brutal property adds - that seems counter-intutitive to me - but the maths says otherwise !

Cheers.

Peter.